[Deck] Zoo

Bloodbraid Elf really isn't talked about a lot. I used to not run him because I ran Steppe Lynx and a Lynx off a Bloodbraid is pretty horrible. However, recently I tried him out again as a 2-of and I'm rarely sorry to draw him.

Right now I'm running this:

Lands 21
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
3 Plateau
2 Taiga
2 Windswept Heath
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest

Creatures 20
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Grim Lavamancer

Spells 19
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Price of Progress
2 Lightning Helix
2 Sylvan Library

Sideboard 15
3 Krosan Grip
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Lightning Helix
1 Bojuka Bog

Bloodbraid's way too slow for a build with only 21 land...you'll have a hard time hitting 4 mana without a hierarch or more lands.
Even then, Bloodbraid's really only going to be helpful vs Counterbalance and other aggro decks...against a lot of the format, it's going to just slow you down.

that's pretty generalised, why wouldn't it work given certain circumstances?

I've been having a hard time beating W/x tempo decks.

Are there any sweet sb cards for that MU?

What do you consider a "W/x" tempo deck? Without anything more than that it's difficult to talk about sideboard cards.

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Originally Posted by jandax

that's pretty generalised, why wouldn't it work given certain circumstances?

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I think that if you're going to play a 4cc card you might as well play Elspeth instead of bloodbraid elf. While Elspeth doesn't net you a card, she does get you 3 damage a turn (the most that bloodbraid elf can get), but more importantly, she diversifies your threat base. Bloodbraid elf doesn't really do this in my opinion, and does little to help you win when your other creatures would not have gotten you there in the first place. Sure, there are situations in general where elf can be really good. However, I would rather play things that net insane card advantage (like library), are ridiculous threats in their own right (knight, terravore even), or diversify the threat base (Elspeth, maybe Koth).

On a related note Dzra, I notice that you're only playing 2 lavamancers. I think they're too useful to only run 2 of, as they can provide two damage a turn while letting all of your creatures trade up if needbe. Furthermore, tribal is pretty popular right now (well, aggro in general), and lavamancer is one of your best tool against these decks.

I used to use more, but I felt like too many was counterproductive to Goyfs and Knights. Once the graveyards start filling up later in the game, they can definitely be great. An early Lavamancer was always fighting with Goyfs and Knights though. Anyways, Tribal MUs are usually not a problem. 8 Bolts, Helix, and Paths usually clean them up pretty well. Goblins can sometimes be problematic if they hit really well off Ringleader. I'll give Elspeth a shot I suppose, I've liked BBE so far but Elspeth has always been great in whatever deck I've put her in.

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Originally Posted by Capt4in

you'll have a hard time hitting 4 mana without a hierarch or more lands.

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Against Combo? Sure.

Against the rest of the format? Not really.

I don't think BBE is where you want to be, though; it doesn't really have any value in any matchup. There are at least two four-drops I'd run instead, which actually do things you need in a variety of matchups.

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Originally Posted by KrzyMoose

There are at least two four-drops I'd run instead, which actually do things you need in a variety of matchups.

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Elspeth and..?

Ranger of Eos.

Hi! I have a couple of questions. I'm currently trying out a zoo list but not that sold in playing it because of questions such as given below that occasionally pops into my mind.

1.) Which variant of zoo ( BIG or Traditional) is better in a meta full of goblins, zoo, merfolks, mono black, and combo decks (TEPS, bellcher)?

2.) Why is zoo not that strong or is not finishing in the top tables after the banning of survival? At least I have not seen it do good in SCG and in big tourneys.

3.) How can zoo handle phyrexian crusader?

thanks in advance for your helpful responses.

1.) The Traditional one because its faster.
2.) Because CB beats Zoo`s ass.
3.) Block it with Goyf or Nacatl.

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Originally Posted by stumPen

1.) The Traditional one because its faster.
2.) Because CB beats Zoo`s ass.
3.) Block it with Goyf or Nacatl.

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I've never had that much of an issue with CounterBalance. It's not a great MU, but far from terrible. I spent awhile testing and almost always ended up 50/50. CB isn't the issue. It's combo that always keeps Zoo in check. There are other outlier decks that aren't terribly good either, but CB isn't the deck keeping Zoo down.

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Originally Posted by keys

Not to burst your bubble but you would be dead if you cracked any fetches that game. Even if you didn't, your opponent would be at 39 life and need only topdeck burning wish to kill you with grapeshot.

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Need only top deck burning wish and enough mana to cast it and grape shot. and you can probably kill them in like 5 or 6 turns with out any distruption on their part.

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Originally Posted by CorpT

I've never had that much of an issue with CounterBalance. It's not a great MU, but far from terrible. I spent awhile testing and almost always ended up 50/50. CB isn't the issue. It's combo that always keeps Zoo in check. There are other outlier decks that aren't terribly good either, but CB isn't the deck keeping Zoo down.

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I agree with that, Storm Combo is the main reason Zoo isn't as succesfull lately as it used to be. Counterbalance Decks are hard, but by landing an early threat (T1 tacatl) before they have time to drop Counterbalance, and by keeping up the pressure, you have a good chance to win.
On the other hand, the combo match-up is bad because your clock is usually to slow, and you have to hope you find some of your sideboard material, so they have time to build a good hand to go off or find an answer for your sideboard hate.
And the idea of casting Lightning Helix in reaction to a Tendrils with 9 storm copies is ridiculous. Sure, it's great is it actually happens, but that would mean the storm player hasn't cast Duress or Orim's Chant to prevent situations exactly like this one. Also, it would mean that you kept 2 mana open with which you could also have cast a Tarmogoyf or a Wild Nacatl. Therefore, if your opponent just Brainstorms or drops a Sensei's Divining Top (which he can easily do because you haven't cast a creature so you're not close towards attacking for lethal) you basically wasted a complete turn. And finally, storm players usually have a storm count of well over ten.

Zoo's chances of beating both CounterTop and ANT improve if you run Fireblast. The 6cc gets around Counterbalance, while you might surprise an ANT player when you are tapped out after an Ad Nauseam with four extra damage for lethal.

By w/x tempo, I meant Deadguy Ale, death and taxes and Green and taxes

Are you worried about how the match ups look on paper or are you really getting crushed repeatedly by people wiht those decks?

The thing is, both w/x tempo decks and zoo have a lot of removal, so you're going to have to out play them. Bringing in cards for the match up isn't as important as knowing what their deck is going to do and how to take advantage of it. If you can consistently deploy threats and force them to handle each one, eventually you'll get into topdeck mode where Zoo is a stud. Certain cards like Library and KotR should be deployed later on when all their removal has been expended on Goyfs, Nacatls and Grim Lavamancers. Those are the cards that'll turn the game in your favor.

I haven't been playing zoo a whole ton, but is the presence of firespouts enough to give zoo problems in the counterbalance matchups? I remember when I played zoo counterbalance decks were rarely a problem for me.

CB diehards run Firespouts in the main due to their common creature match ups. Sticking an early beater like a Nacatl or goyf, or even pridemage, paves the way. Over extending into a firespout is pretty deadly, as one generally wants to land as many threats before CB/Top is on the table. Here, Grim Lavamancer shines as a shock-on-a-stick, and a first turn Nacatl goes a long way as well. Sometimes, they're just going to have good hands and go turn 1 Top turn 2 CB, then Daze/counter whatever you play afterwards.

Maindecked firespouts represent a counter-strategy to those employed against them. A hoard of creatures is bad news for CB, so having a cheap and effective sweeper, and something in the 3cc slot for CB to boot, is indeed a good thing.

It's not the end of the world, it's something to keep in mind.

Firespout is really what tips the balance in the CB match up. Indeed, it gives the CB player a reliable and cheap answer to countering Grip with CB, and will sweep the board early keeping them safe from a mid-game burnout. With no way to draw cards efficiently and effectively, Zoo loses so much card advantage from losing three plus creatures/ threats to a single card. If you play conservative and don't pump out creatures, then Zoo is not playing its intended and required "A" game and aggressive style of play. Zoo plays optimal when it is very aggressive and assertive, especially early. Playing passive and holding creatures back in fear of firespout also plays right into their game. So it is like you are damned if you do and your damned if you don't. In my view, the CB match is quite favorable with no main deck firespout, and three main deck firespout with four post board makes the CB match an uphill battle.