Miracle Control

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Originally Posted by YamiJoey

Random Crap

Storm
G1: Early Rituals (T1 Land, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual), Ad Nauseum, Burning Wish, Tendrils when they have you for exact damage. (Which, by the way, is the best way to win a game of Magic.)
G2: Storm pieces, Xathrid Swarm, Carpet of Flowers

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Disrespecting opposing decks paired with shitty advice. Brilliant.

Xantid depends if you have spot removal left in the deck or the remaining numbers of these, but this one is indeed a critical card. Ad Nauseam is a total no-brainer. I don't know why we even need to mention stuff like this, S&T, or opposing Entreats in the first place. I can not count how many times I bait counters with Rituals/Rites or especially Wishes (if I lacked actual discard) and it bugs me that you advice to do this without mentioning that countering Rituals and Wishes is a situational depending play. I dunno where you ground the Tendrils example. This is so exceptional artificial and stupid that I have never seen or heared of that happening. Carpet of Flowers is bad advice plain and simple. If you have to control two Islands (aka break your fetches) you do this for Counterbalance and if you resolve the enchantment, you are so far ahead that their "Sol Ring" should not be a serious threat. Heck, 40% of cards in Storm decks are mana anyways, so why won't you save the FoW for the critical spells?

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Originally Posted by YamiJoey

Sultai Delver
G1: Deathrite Shaman, Countermagic, Treasure Cruise, random 1-ofs like TNN, Library, Walkers.
G2: Deathrite Shaman, Countermagic, Treasure Cruise, random 1-ofs like TNN, Library, Walkers.

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I'd qualify this with placing a very high priority on countering Library because it's the only way you'll be able to win a counterwar against them. It's the only one of their cards a BUG player should be fighting back over if the board is even-to-favorable for them. The way to beat BUG with Miracles is to recognize that you're usually the beatdown. If they fill their hand with disruption, especially off of Sylvan Library, you've unlikely to win.

Idk why you have Force of Will G2 vs. Delver decks... Did I miss something?

Indeed, keeping Force of Will in for G2s against Delver decks is pretty iffy. I thought the plan was to bring in more blasts and removal in order to answer their threats with maximum efficiency.

I don't think there's a lot of advice that can be given on Force of Will other than what's already been said. The Force is reserved for things that would either cause me to lose directly, as in Show and Tell; or stuff that would reduce/eliminate the value of the Force in general, like Aether Vial or Sylvan Library. It's not always obvious what spell would cause me to lose the game (and hence should be fought over), but that comes with experience.

A tougher "should I Force this" question might be whether to answer an Island --> Top opening with a Force if one is on the draw. I'm guessing the answer is "no" based purely on the fact that I'm happy whenever my opponents do this to me... and are less equipped to fight the ensuing Counterbalance war.

...

I noticed that Reid Duke's list from the Player's Championship didn't contain grave hate of any kind, not even so much as a Containment Priest. Instead it seems to have a large amount of stack control, with a pair of blue blasts in addition to a Flusterstorm and 2 Spell Pierces. Is this an approach that might be exportable to other tournaments and/or different lists, or is it something that might only be expected to do well at the Player's Championship?

There're VERY FEW turn 1 FoW plays, less than the 10 fingers.

1. turn 1 Vial
2. turn 1 doomsday
3. turn 1 silvan library
4. turn 1 entomb
5. turn 1 breakthrough
6. turn 1 chalice for 1
7. turn 1 the ritual that would allow your opponent to cast either Belcher or Empty, since you don't know which one, you cannot assume
8. turn 1 however your opponent tries to put Balustrade Spy into play
9. turn 1 Blood Moon when you don't have a plains

A debatable play would be turn 1 Mana Bond. Turn 1 Dark Confidant is only FoW worthy if you know you have SB-out your StP.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Disrespecting opposing decks paired with shitty advice. Brilliant.

Xantid depends if you have spot removal left in the deck or the remaining numbers of these

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That's weird.

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Originally Posted by Me

The above is true for every answer that applies to it.

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So if your hand is all Countermagic: Counter the Swarm. If you have removal: don't.

I didn't see anyone asking for T1 Force plays, hence why Entreat and Jace were on the lists, and this was a list of everything we could Force. It may be better to pitch them in G2, but we can figure that out by the quality of targets in both G1 and 2. It's very possible it's bad G1, but excellent G2. I have liked Force more and more G2 Vs Sultai Delver, as there are builds out there that are just a tonne of silver bullets in the board, which they can have a load of that just kill us on T2. (Bitterblossom, for example, is a nightmare.) REB is less good against them, as it only really has Delver, Cantrips, and Force as targets. I doubts we want 3 like we do against other decks, and they aren't Red, so BEB can't come in.

When the best decks in the format are Aggressive cards + Countermagic, and CounterTop lock, Spell combos come under random crap. The only people playing Storm are the people who refuse to play anything else, even when it's bad. It may see a good tournament, but a lot will have to change for it to see a good metagame.

All of the Delver decks just have all of their threats listed. If you are in the late game, getting low on life, and both players are running low on resources, Forcing ANY threat is reasonable. You can't guarentee you'll find an answer, and if you do then it can be pointed at the next guy that comes down, until you manage to find a hand that will actually win the game.

In those MU's for G2, I would keep/board Force as follows:

Miracles: Keep.
UR Delver: Board.
UWR Delver:Stoneblade: Board.
Elves: Keep. (At least some.)
Sultai Delver: Board. (But as stated, more tempted to keep some now.)

Lands: Board. (??? It seems like an attrition based game. I've played against it twice and it never felt like a bad MU.)
DnT: I don't know how to beat this deck. I believe I'm 2-2, but also think it should be a good MU, so help.
RUG Delver: Board.
Storm: Keep.

I suppose in trying to be less "Force is a puzzle to be unlocked by your own mind, child", I was way too vague and basically said "Well, everything is Forcable at some point". Hell, I've Forced Brainstorms before now and it be correct.

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Originally Posted by YamiJoey

I have liked Force more and more G2 Vs Sultai Delver, as there are builds out there that are just a tonne of silver bullets in the board, which they can have a load of that just kill us on T2. (Bitterblossom, for example, is a nightmare.)

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These silver bullets are all artifacts and enchantments that die to Council's Judgment and Disenchant. Liliana (if anyone still runs her) is a better reason for Force, but even then it's a card that just gets so awful when your hand is being attacked.

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Originally Posted by YamiJoey

The only people playing Storm are the people who refuse to play anything else, even when it's bad. It may see a good tournament, but a lot will have to change for it to see a good metagame.

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Storm is good right now. Almost caught up to Miracles as the second most successful archetype on MODO:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/legacy#online

So it seems playing ponders in miracles (online) is indeed a terrible idea, the card is bugged (for now) and might shuffle when you click "NO".

Finally we can close the case.

/sarcasm, as most people here don't seem to pick any of it up.

As I was reading Ein's primer (on scg), I saw that he (or you if you're reading^^) remove all 4 Force of Will vs Stifle.decks. Don't you want to keep some vs Rug Delver for instance ?
I feel like the most difficult task in the mu is to establish our manabase, the late game beeing secured by terminus and counterbalance.

What would your answer be if you didn't have access to flusterstorm in the MU ? Would you still remove all 4 Forces ?

Thanks !

I'm most assuredly not an expert, but I bet we can figure this out anyway.

Without Flusterstorms in the sideboard :frown: it's going to be a little tougher to assemble a functioning manabase against Stifle.dec. I venture to guess that if Flusterstorm is unavailable, it's probably Spell Pierce holding court as substitute? Quite possibly not: reading through the epic wellspring of Miracles knowledge that is the 3-part Primer indicates quite a few uses of Flusterstorm for which Spell Pierce wouldn't be suited despite the apparent similarity of the two cards.

On the other hand, consider the position of the Delver player on the other side of the table. Stifle isn't just for fetch lands, it's quite useful against Miracle triggers also. Miracles packs 6 basics and 5 duals in the typical 21 land Ponder manabase, with no variant running any less than this. Holding up Stifle mana might not have the desired effect: a couple of those non-fetchlands might appear and start pushing Miracles out of tax-counter range. It's possible to just play around Stifle a nontrivial percentage of the time. Other times it's the upcoming Terminus trigger that's important and the fetchland is the target I wanted them to hit. Then, of course, come the occasions wherein the RUG player dutifully pretends to have a Stifle at the ready when he or she does not.

I don't know how important it is to prepare for the Stifle.dec at this time, the card seems to be less played than I've ever seen before. Nonetheless, I'm not taking my chances. The other day I sat down across from Shardless BUG, sideboarded like an idiot, and was duly served. It's hard to tell a guy who just defeated me that he's not supposed to be playing those cards anymore.

EDIT: on second thought, I just lost a bunch of games to Stifle: don't listen to me.

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Originally Posted by Cipher

These silver bullets are all artifacts and enchantments that die to Council's Judgment and Disenchant. Liliana (if anyone still runs her) is a better reason for Force, but even then it's a card that just gets so awful when your hand is being attacked.



Storm is good right now. Almost caught up to Miracles as the second most successful archetype on MODO:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/legacy#online

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Storm is only good because of UR Delver being the nr. 1 deck online. Storm has a very good MU against UR Delver.

Edit: @Stifle People often missplay against it. You are the control deck, if they don't pressure you, there is not a single reason to do anything besides playing a land. Only use your fetchland when you absolutely have to, because you need to respond to a threat etc. Playing turn 1 land into keeping Stifle mana is a huge tempo loss for a stifle.dec if you don't use your fetchland and just pass the turn, because they now have to leave 1 mana open to play stifle. So just playing the land and passing is the best play if you fear/ know they have stifle.

That being said, with the rise of storm, what's the verdict on maindecking spell pierce? I feel like that card is really good in the current meta, but doesn't really help us at times in longer games.

Edit: Right. Because we get to run REB. Duh.

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Originally Posted by exallium

That being said, with the rise of storm, what's the verdict on maindecking spell pierce? I feel like that card is really good in the current meta, but doesn't really help us at times in longer games.

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Is it good against UR Delver? I don't think so. I wouldn't run that over REB, but I think Joe fit both in his List.

Spell Pierce is so mediocre. I prefer Spell Snare to it and I think that Snare is better than Pierce versus Storm since they can't play around it and will never blind Cabal Therapy for it. Plus Snare has the upside of being good against Young Pyro, since fighting him on the stack is far better than fighting him on the battlefield.

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Originally Posted by Zllig

Spell Pierce is so mediocre. I prefer Spell Snare to it and I think that Snare is better than Pierce versus Storm since they can't play around it and will never blind Cabal Therapy for it. Plus Snare has the upside of being good against Young Pyro, since fighting him on the stack is far better than fighting him on the battlefield.

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Here're some reasons Pierce > Snare:
1. Stops early Liliana
2. Stops Entomb/Reanimate
3. Stops Doomsday
4. Interacts against early Blood Moon (remember to take account into Spirit Guide)
5. Interacts against turn 1 non 2-CMC-ritual into Belcher

If you want a hard stopper against the CMC 2 cycle (SFM, YP, Snapcaster, Goyf, DC, and Chalice at 1) and occasional combo breaker (Burning Wish/Reset/Exhume/Infernal Tutor), then SS can be better than Pierce.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Here're some reasons Pierce > Snare:
1. Stops early Liliana
2. Stops Entomb/Reanimate
3. Stops Doomsday
4. Interacts against early Blood Moon (remember to take account into Spirit Guide)
5. Interacts against turn 1 non 2-CMC-ritual into Belcher

If you want a hard stopper against the CMC 2 cycle (SFM, YP, Snapcaster, Goyf, DC, and Chalice at 1) and occasional combo breaker (Burning Wish/Reset/Exhume/Infernal Tutor), then SS can be better than Pierce.

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1. Liliana is certainly not seeing as much play these days, but I guess that's reasonable argument. In the last event I played in the top 16 included 4 Lili's in a mono black pox deck (a completely unplayable deck), so my fear of Liliana is pretty nonexistent.
2. Sure, but Reanimator also plays the same amount (or more) 2 drop reanimate spells.
3. Not even a playable deck
4. How are you ever worried about Blood Moon in a deck with ~8 basics? I can kind of see the issue with this, but I'd much rather have a hard counter for Painter/Revoker.
5. "Interacts with Belcher when they don't have one of their 8 two mana rituals, ~4 Burning Wish, or 4 Manamorphose!" I guess it does!

Pierce is better if you are trying to force the issue on something early game, or if you expect red blasts. That said, this isn't the deck.

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Originally Posted by Zllig

3. Not even a playable deck

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I don't care how true it is, don't say it. :(

I was running a pair of Spell Snares not too long ago, and they were fine. They have more targets now than back when, so I'd consider running it back.

what about Propaganda for next meta? it will be so full of 1/1 tokens and DnT that 1 Propaganda can be GG as well as a Moat.

What do you think about it? Philipp?

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Originally Posted by Poron

what about Propaganda for next meta? it will be so full of 1/1 tokens and DnT that 1 Propaganda can be GG as well as a Moat.

What do you think about it? Philipp?

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If you really want to play a card like Propaganda, play Ghostly Prison instead. That way you don't get your shit blown out by Red Blast.

I'm just saying that against DnT and UWR tokens (that in my opinion will flood next meta) Propaganda/Ghostly Prison can be a very good idea while waiting for a Terminus.

It also helps a lot against Maverick

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Originally Posted by Poron

I'm just saying that against DnT and UWR tokens (that in my opinion will flood next meta) Propaganda/Ghostly Prison can be a very good idea while waiting for a Terminus.

It also helps a lot against Maverick

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If u feel the need to play cards to stop opponents hitting you with creature, it's very likely u have a strange and twisted meta. In the case of Reid Duke, he knows he has to play against Infect, hence he runs Peacekeeper.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=77690

In case of u having a typical, wide and diverse meta, 4 StP, some Ponders, and typical Terminus as sweeper should be enough.

I've seen Ghostly Prison as an out to Elves in the D&T board before. That being said, 3 mana vs. Daze decks and Thalia decks is a lot to come up with, and you're (depending on your build) running between 7 and 8 generic removal spells (3-4 swords and 4 terminus). This card sort of acts, in a sense, like a 5th terminus that has the upside of not hitting your dudes, which is only relevant when you're already winning the game.

I'm wondering if Pyroclasm isn't just better? This way you don't leave yourself open to enchantment destruction just killing you out of nowhere, and in general it's a lot easier to cast.

damages, imho, aren't so worth anymore. a Daze even useless + a Brainstorm and he saves all his dudes

Played FNM last night (best OP change ever) with this list, heavily based on Shönneger's.

Permanents: 13
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Spells: 26
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels

Lands: 21
2 Plains
4 Island
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
2 Tundra (2 Hallowed Fountain)
3 Volcanic Island (2 Steam Vents)

Sideboard
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Sudden Shock
1 Council's Judgement
1 Wear // Tear
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Rest in Peace
1 Blood Moon
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Keranos, God of Storms

I had a BYE in R1 (booooo) but managed to get to watch my friend keep 2 Lands on a mull to five in Standard UW Control, then procede to take his opponent to time and gain a concession after landing two consecutive Elspeths, having to tap out on turn 2 and 3 for a Fountain of Fortunes. Which was sweet.

I'll preface by saying I knew to an extent what all of my opponents were playing, and they knew what I was.

R2: Storm (Ross)
G1: I mull and keep Island, Ponder, Counterspell, Counterspell, Snapcaster Mage, Jace. He plays a T1 Duress. I draw StP, he plays Therapy for Counterspell, I draw a Top, then a Land, then die. Hurray for 21 Lands! (Shit happens.)
-4 StP, -2 Terminus, +1 REB, +1 Entreat, +1 Engi, +1 Relic,+2 Clique. (I was not happy to board in the extra REB.)
G2: I manage to cast a Ponder on T1, and manage to hit some Land drops. I make an Engi on one into his Carpet of Flowers. I assemble Countertop, and he Decays my Balance after casting random 1-mana Spells ar me. He attempts to Decay my Engi, and I tap both Tops to draw a Force of Will, cracking my Engi, tapping out whilst I had Counterspell in hand. This was clearly wrong, as my opponent had 4 Lands in play and had not been playing Spells since they killed the Balance, and I knew his hand was either all mana, or Spells with Storm written on them. He untaps into a Burning Wish, which I Force. He then Tutors for a Dark Ritual, casts 2 Dark Rituals, then Tutors for a Tendrils. I played badly and got punished.

1-1

R3: Elves (Stefan) We are currently 1-1-1 in tournament Legacy matches, Elves Vs Miracles. He is my nemesiiiiiis.
G1: He makes a load of guys, I make a Terminus. He beats me down to 8 life with an Elvish Visionary before I Snap back a Brainstorm and block. I then run off with the game. I later Top and crack twice because all I'm seeing is more Tops and Lands, until I run out and his REB, REB, Land. Which was TERRIFYING. But I play my Tarn and my next card is a Jace so I win.
-2 Red Elemental Blast, -2 Counterspell, -4 Force of Will, +1 Sudden Shock, +1 Supreme Verdict, +1 Entreat the Angels, +1 Engineered Explosives, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Izzet Staticaster, +2 Vendilion Clique
G2: Throughout the game he never played more than his first Nettle Sentinel, except when it was a Visionary, a Wirewood Symbiot whilst he had a Visionary, or a Reclamation Sage on my Counterbalance. My Terminuses were always being blanked. He then EoT'd a Dryad Arbor, untapped and Ordered for a Craterhoof, which I Terminused. He then did the same thing on the very turn after next, and so did I. He played really well, but it's basically unwinnable.

2-1

R4: UW Control (David) These were very interesting and interactive games. In G1 I managed to have double Force of Will for his Counterbalance, untapping into a Jace. I then make Countertop, and he doesn't have the opportunity to do much else.
I don't recall my board plan here. I've just tried to recreate it, but I'm not entirely sure. I cut a Plains and some removal, and upped threats. Didn't bring in the Council's Judgement, did bring in Wear/Tear.
We end up in a situation where we both have Top lock online. I get a Top doen, he makes a Balance. I make a Balance, he makes a Top. I opt not to flip my Top, as I'm ahead enough and have more actual action than he does. We fight for a while, then make Keranos, then Clique, and swing for 9. He fights for a bit, and manages to Terminus my board at 4. I assumed he was Miracle-less, but there we go. I land a Jace and start Brainstorming to find... Things. I flip my Top end of turn and had the wrong card on top of my deck (BALLER) but then untap, Brainstorm with Jace, putting a Counterbalance on top. I cast Top. He Spins, then casts a Counterspell, which is countered by my Balance. He taps Top, I respond by REBing his Counterbalance, which resolves (for the third time in the match), and then his Top goes away and he doesn't reveal it to his trigger. I now have Countertop and Jace in play Vs his single Counterspell in hand. Time is called and I win, 1-0. I loved this match. I feel I was so very heavily favoured, but there was a tonne of interaction.

3-1. 2-packs of KTK and a Frenzied Goblin. WOOO!

Just a quick rundown of what happened. I am just excited to play again, as it has been a while since I had the opportunity to constantly look at the top 3 cards of my deck.

I went 4-1-1 in our local quarterly Legacy Classic yesterday with a modified version of Philipp's list:

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
3 Ponder
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Counterspell
1 Dig Through Time
1 Pyroblast

SB:
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Flusterstorm
2 Rest in Peace
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Pyroclasm
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wear // Tear
1 Baneslayer Angel

Notable differences are 1 extra land over the 4th Ponder, the "cheater" hedge with 1 Pyroblast, and a Dig Through Time as a continuing experiment in the flex slot (could be 2nd Blast or CS... or Ponder I guess).

Sideboard was a little cobbled together as I haven't yet settled on something ideal, but based on some scouting I made a decision to bring back the 3rd Flusterstorm (saw lots of Omni & ANT), and chose Verdict as an additional sweeper for the Merfolk I saw around (and potentially Delver decks). Pyroclasm is still good, but as its marginal against Swiftspear I think 1 is enough in any of the matches you'd want it (Elves, DnT, UR), and is obviously worse against the Lord decks.

As for the MUs, I started off with a Draw round 1 vs Nic Fit (Gaddock Teeg + Thrun are a pain), lost the next to Tins Fins (game 2 he won through 3 Flusterstorms, a Force, and a Clique (!) and he had Decays for all the Counterbalances), then won out the next 4 vs Merfolk, DnT, Affinity and finally another Merfolk player to make top 8! OFC lost to Storm in the quarters (he had a T2 hand on the play G1 through a Force, G2 beat CB w/ Decay) despite what I think is normally a good MU for us.

Dig Through Time was cool; though not gamebreaking at any point, and often pitched to FOW, it does have some play. It definitely scared my opponents a bunch when they saw it in my hand...

The deck is still really well positioned IMO. Terminus OP.

MVP: Baneslayer Angel

I may as well report. I took 3rd/4th at a local 12 player event over the weekend. Unfortunately, I'm an idiot and left part of my sideboard at home (I didn't expect to play in an event, as there was a PPTQ going on earlier that day)

Round 1 Joshua playing Miracles
Game 1, I quickly conceed to Top + Counterbalance + Jace, after forcing the first counterbalance. I don't really want to waste time in this matchup because the games go quite long. Game 2 and 3 I get there through the normal route of deploying top / counterbalance, and locking him out of the game, eventually getting a Jace on board as a finisher.

Sideboarding is straightforward enough:

-4 Terminus
-4 Swords
-1 Entreat

+1 REB
+1 Pyroblast
+1 EE
+1 Council's Judgement
+1 Counterspell
+2 Vendilion Clique
+1 Spell Pierce
+1 Wear // Tear

1-0

Round 2 DocteurGabe playing Miracles
Game 1 was the SECOND longest grind of the night. I exhausted all of his win conditions, and he exhausted all of mine except for one entreat, which I managed to find and one-shot him from 17. Game 2 was won with (I think) Jace + CB Top lock.

Boarding same as above. I feel like I've got this matchup very down.

2-0

Round 3 Alex playing Death and Taxes
I need to work on this matchup. I think I boarded right, but I still got completely wrecked. Game 1, I don't think I played more than 2 lands. In game 2, we had a very long, very interactive game. I managed to counter 2 cataclysms, as he wasn't playing around Spell Pierce, but he eventually ground me down. Containment Priest was less a threat and more an annoyance, and I know boarding it in is wrong, especially now. A quick clock on his part plus Rishadan Port and Thalia kept me well out of the game. This is a matchup I need to personally really work on.

Sideboarding:

+1 Wear // Tear
+1 Council's Judgement
+2 Spell Pierce
+1 EE
+1 Pyroclasm
+2 Containment Priest

-2 Red elemental blast
-4 Counterbalance
-1 Counterspell
-1 Force of Will

2-1

Round 4 Brandon playing MUD
This is another bad matchup for me, as chalice plus trinisphere backed up by big fatties becomes a real problem. I get wrecked by a turn 2 platinum emperion w. greaves on him. Game 2 I manage to eventually swarm him with angels while carefully keeping his board clear through trinisphere. This second game was very drawn out, I actually had a Jace on board with 13 counters at one point. He went to attack with a hasty forgemaster (he had akroma's memorial in his deck...), which I plow with a chalice on the board. He misses his trigger, but follows up by sacking some things to spine my Jace. Game 3, we had 10 minutes. I entreat and make an angel in his main phase, and ride it to victory, keeping his board clear with STP. I hate this matchup, as I hate dealing with Chalice and Trinisphere, but I was glad I came out on top.

Sideboarding. Ponder came out because the card is basically useless if they T1 Chalice:

-2 blast effects
-3 Ponder

+1 Council's Judgement
+1 Wear // Tear
+2 Vendilion Clique
+1 EE

Top 4 R1 John playing BUG Lands
Game 1 takes almost an hour and a half. John is a careful player. He makes sure you don't have a land in play, via Ghost Quarter and Wasteland, and only then does he deploy a win condition. Game 1, he managed to take me down after I entreated for 4, controlling the top of my deck and my available white sources with his rishadan ports and wastelands. Game 2, I eventually manage to get there, as he was playing hard around RIP, which wasn't even in my 75. Angels took him out. Game 3, I conceded once he has 3 Rishadan ports and 3 other lands, while I'm sitting there with 3 islands and no clique to be found. Never have I been in such a boring game of Magic. My gameplan in our games was to try to establish Countertop lock, but unfortunately he was on a heavy Rishadan port / Ghost Quarter plan in both the games he won, and I was unable to amass enough land, let alone having more than one mana available during any main phase for the entirety of the games.

Sideboarding. I don't feel like I have a great amount of options in this matchup.

-4 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Counterspell

+1 Council's Judgment
+1 Wear // Tear
+2 Vendilion Clique
+1 EE

Out!

I walk away with a few more pieces for Reanimator (I've got a personal project to finish the deck via store credit by the end of the year), and a saltiness for Lands that I can only begin to describe.

I think that, while I love philip's boarding plan for the Global meta (MTGO as well as larger events (32+ players)) but I need to address some of these terrible matchups. I think a solid plan A is to swap the containment priests for Rest in Peace if there's going to be a lands player in such a small meta. Blood Moon is a consideration as well, as it both hits the lands player and can help vs. MUD. With respect to blood moon, what needs to be pondered is how many percentage points I'm gaining in that matchup, and how many I'm losing in others, depending on what get's cut for local play.

Aww, three reports with Ponder lists! You guys really made my day! :D

A few words here and there:

exallium: You should really consider cutting at least 1 Plains in the mirror match. You don't need that land in 99% of the scenarios and the additional counter helps strengthen the deckbuilding philosphy of a low-land Miracles.

I don't really know what BUG lands is, but if its just trying to kill you via Dark Depths it's better to keep Swords and not Terminus, unless you expect like Confidant or something.

I'd also advise you to keep Counterspell vs DnT.

MrShine: You should really give 4 Ponder 21 lands a try. It works, it's not a myth, trust me! :)

YamiJoey: You sideboard packs a lot of non-Snapcasterable targets, and despite the fact that you only play 2 Snapcasters, I'd build that sideboard along the lines of most of your cards being flash creatures (Clique/Priest) or instants.

Congratz to all of you, and keep it rocking! :)

Greetings

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

Aww, three reports with Ponder lists! You guys really made my day! :D

A few words here and there:

exallium: You should really consider cutting at least 1 Plains in the mirror match. You don't need that land in 99% of the scenarios and the additional counter helps strengthen the deckbuilding philosphy of a low-land Miracles.

I don't really know what BUG lands is, but if its just trying to kill you via Dark Depths it's better to keep Swords and not Terminus, unless you expect like Confidant or something.

I'd also advise you to keep Counterspell vs DnT.
Greetings

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I wouldn't have my Miracles any other way ;) Oh! and I'm 99.999999% going to GP Lille! Working on Plane tickets and whatnot now!

Noted. Next time there will only be one plains in my deck.

BUG Lands is as you'd expect. I'll keep in swords next time.

I'll keep the Counterspell in mind for next time I play.

Thanks Ein!

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

Aww, three reports with Ponder lists! You guys really made my day! :D YamiJoey: You sideboard packs a lot of non-Snapcasterable targets, and despite the fact that you only play 2 Snapcasters, I'd build that sideboard along the lines of most of your cards being flash creatures (Clique/Priest) or instants.

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My only change will be -2 things (not Clique) for 2 Flusterstorms for the near future. I have gone a full year without them, as I refuse to use non-Foil ones. But I have a Flusterstorm mat, which is badically the same thing. It will be Blood Moon for sure, but I may have to cut the Staticaster. It's not as good in the UR MU as they pack REB and BEB, which is frustrating as hell. I then want to add in a second Sudden Shock because that card is NUTS right now, especially as it'll represent 8 poinys of burn with Snapcaster! WOOOO! I am slowly working towards more Snapcaster targets, and maybe a 3rd Snap somewhere, and then including BEB.

In the mirror I am very tempted to cut the second Plains down to 19 Lands. How ambitious do you think I can get?

It may sound stubborn or vain, but I don't remember playing this list and ever feeling like I don't have access to cards that win me a match. Hell, even against 12-post I can just turbo Moon them and everything's gravy.

Looks like SCG now post all the deck lists for players made Day 2 (120 players out of 600+) when Legacy's its main event.

Looking closer, only about 6 Miracles made Day 2, ouch! I don't think that would be the result if 600 players played Legacy in Europe. The Ape RUG Delver list doesn't run Stifle; and ape's considerably worse than Mongoose from Miracles' perspective. I rather play against these apes than UR Delver.

We had a very... fierce discussion regarding Storm in our Miracles Chat. I thought that my last post would also be of use to most of you, maybe you can get what I was hinting at, but whatever. Let's hope that you can get something from that.

But onto the real topic: Storm. So.. Pre-Board it's easy to play. But not easy to win. The preboard matches are what I call a linear task, it's super easy, not many decision branches/trees whatevr. You slam your Cantrips to find Counterbalance. So, why can this go wrong? 1) You kept a bad hand. (white cards, dingeling) and you're going to die, painfully. 2) They put you to the test too soon. We do not have any cheap interaction with the exception of FoW. But, let's not kid ourselves, one FoW is never enough. The lack of Pierce+Snare is what makes it pretty hard in the preboard matches. The third scenario is easy: You find Balance, and Cantrip/Top and they are dead. Period. Postboard games on the other hand are a different animal. First, there are many different variations of Storm, and its not just ANT and TES. There is also the earlier mentioned Grinding Station (which will turn your insides out) and other obscure variations, that mostly evolve from the SB. Due to the lack of mainstream content (which may change due to the SCG Open series grinder picking up Storm) you can never know what they will do when it comes to the sideboard. 1) Will they bring Xantid Swarm? 2) Will they bring Confidant and/or Young Pyromancer to play the creature game? 3) Will they bring permanent based shit-hate like City of Solitude or Defense Grid. You cannot really build a boardingplan with all of them in mind. So you have to settle on something that covers all of those as good as it gets. So you keep Swords? Or Terminus? One gets rid of Xantid as soon as T1, wherewas the other one gives you an out to Pyromancer aggro. Do you bring in Judgment to deal with hilarious permanents that might wreck your day? But this card is sooo bad otherwise. Do you bring in REB? --- Additionally: If the game goes long and we have no Top, we are bound to lose due to them having Decay for our Balance, followed by 7 or 8 (this also works sometimes -g ood old draw to 8 and combo) cards thrown at your face. Miracles is unable, I repeat, unable to overcome Past in Flames without either having RIP (which is bad due to the lack of a good clock) or Top+Fluster on Top. You can bring in BEB as it often comes down to PiF only. So, when they enter PiF mode you are getting wrecked because they will shred your hand and rebuy all of it before killing you with a trillion mana, as we gave them time. Oh, you think that Top+Fluster wins? Well, think again, dude. They either Needle it or Abrupt Decay it eot to disable said trick. Additionally: Do you keep Entreat as a mean to finish the game quickly despite being utterly terrible when it comes to dealing with their deck? Whoever claims to have an answer to all of these questions is outright lying (just as if somebody told me he read all of Augustinus) - but go for it, if you want. If you still believe to be positive vs an equally skilled Storm pilot, by all means, move on and win all these matches!

Greetings

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

We had a very... fierce discussion regarding Storm in our Miracles Chat. I thought that my last post would also be of use to most of you, maybe you can get what I was hinting at, but whatever. Let's hope that you can get something from that.

But onto the real topic: Storm. So.. Pre-Board it's easy to play. But not easy to win. The preboard matches are what I call a linear task, it's super easy, not many decision branches/trees whatevr. You slam your Cantrips to find Counterbalance. So, why can this go wrong? 1) You kept a bad hand. (white cards, dingeling) and you're going to die, painfully. 2) They put you to the test too soon. We do not have any cheap interaction with the exception of FoW. But, let's not kid ourselves, one FoW is never enough. The lack of Pierce+Snare is what makes it pretty hard in the preboard matches. The third scenario is easy: You find Balance, and Cantrip/Top and they are dead. Period. Postboard games on the other hand are a different animal. First, there are many different variations of Storm, and its not just ANT and TES. There is also the earlier mentioned Grinding Station (which will turn your insides out) and other obscure variations, that mostly evolve from the SB. Due to the lack of mainstream content (which may change due to the SCG Open series grinder picking up Storm) you can never know what they will do when it comes to the sideboard. 1) Will they bring Xantid Swarm? 2) Will they bring Confidant and/or Young Pyromancer to play the creature game? 3) Will they bring permanent based shit-hate like City of Solitude or Defense Grid. You cannot really build a boardingplan with all of them in mind. So you have to settle on something that covers all of those as good as it gets. So you keep Swords? Or Terminus? One gets rid of Xantid as soon as T1, wherewas the other one gives you an out to Pyromancer aggro. Do you bring in Judgment to deal with hilarious permanents that might wreck your day? But this card is sooo bad otherwise. Do you bring in REB? --- Additionally: If the game goes long and we have no Top, we are bound to lose due to them having Decay for our Balance, followed by 7 or 8 (this also works sometimes -g ood old draw to 8 and combo) cards thrown at your face. Miracles is unable, I repeat, unable to overcome Past in Flames without either having RIP (which is bad due to the lack of a good clock) or Top+Fluster on Top. You can bring in BEB as it often comes down to PiF only. So, when they enter PiF mode you are getting wrecked because they will shred your hand and rebuy all of it before killing you with a trillion mana, as we gave them time. Oh, you think that Top+Fluster wins? Well, think again, dude. They either Needle it or Abrupt Decay it eot to disable said trick. Additionally: Do you keep Entreat as a mean to finish the game quickly despite being utterly terrible when it comes to dealing with their deck? Whoever claims to have an answer to all of these questions is outright lying (just as if somebody told me he read all of Augustinus) - but go for it, if you want. If you still believe to be positive vs an equally skilled Storm pilot, by all means, move on and win all these matches!

Greetings

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That's a fair assessment. Another way for storm to lose postboard is if the ANT player keeps a hand that doesn't have a Decay and Counterbalance comes down before they can cantrip into one (that's one of the reasons I love Top in the storm sideboard). Honestly I think Vendilion Clique solves almost all the problems you mention - it's a fairly fast clock, and it can beat Past in Flames by bottoming it if the Clique is well-timed. I think you're underrating creatures on the whole. Also, I've been confused for a while why your anti-combo sideboard slots don't include Meddling Mage. It's completely obvious that the best way to beat combo is to present different types of hate and a clock. I'm much happier playing through Flusterstorm than Mage since Decay is already so overloaded in the matchup.

I agree that the Miracles matchup for storm is not nearly as bad as most Storm and Miracles players assume it is. It's a good skill tester. But it's definitely not an easy matchup for storm. I've played against a lot of different lists and players, and my takeaway is that the creature sideboard plan is the best for beating storm.

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Originally Posted by phazonmutant

That's a fair assessment. Another way for storm to lose postboard is if the ANT player keeps a hand that doesn't have a Decay and Counterbalance comes down before they can cantrip into one (that's one of the reasons I love Top in the storm sideboard). Honestly I think Vendilion Clique solves almost all the problems you mention - it's a fairly fast clock, and it can beat Past in Flames by bottoming it if the Clique is well-timed. I think you're underrating creatures on the whole. Also, I've been confused for a while why your anti-combo sideboard slots don't include Meddling Mage. It's completely obvious that the best way to beat combo is to present different types of hate and a clock. I'm much happier playing through Flusterstorm than Mage since Decay is already so overloaded in the matchup.

I agree that the Miracles matchup for storm is not nearly as bad as most Storm and Miracles players assume it is. It's a good skill tester. But it's definitely not an easy matchup for storm. I've played against a lot of different lists and players, and my takeaway is that the creature sideboard plan is the best for beating storm.

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Honestly, I'm personally interrested in what happened in this "fierce" discussion so Phil had to smite the ignorant. (Son, don't follow my path of pillage and burn in this forum)

The issue with the creature-based hate like Clique/Canonist/Meddling Mage is what it Kinds fucks with your Terminus' which you might need against Empty the Warrens. Would you run Sweepers + Creatures postboard? How to fit in all these cards in the first place and without looking dumb at your hatebears if your opponent combos before you drop them? This is a known D&T issue; bearable if you are on the play, but horrible on the draw.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Honestly, I'm personally interrested in what happened in this "fierce" discussion so Phil had to smite the ignorant. (Son, don't follow my path of pillage and burn in this forum)

The issue with the creature-based hate like Clique/Canonist/Meddling Mage is what it Kinds fucks with your Terminus' which you might need against Empty the Warrens. Would you run Sweepers + Creatures postboard? How to fit in all these cards in the first place and without looking dumb at your hatebears if your opponent combos before you drop them? This is a known D&T issue; bearable if you are on the play, but horrible on the draw.

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It's "bearable"? Heh. I bearly agree. I think it's unbearlievable that people don't like creature-based hate more.

Ok, ok, enough with the puns.

You're definitely right that there's some nonbo between creatures and answers at first glance. I really don't think it's a big deal though. If they go off with Empty before you can drop a hatebear, obviously you wrath then play Clique or Mage. If one of the creatures comes down first, then it should be able to slow them enough that you can kill them or lock them. Either way it's a winning line. Bob and Pyromancer are much more difficult to deal with in this fashion, but that might be a reason to leave in Swords over Terminus.

As far as being too slow, that's what the Forces, Pierce/Flusterstorm, and Pyroblast slots are for - slowing them down until your Counterbalance or hate bear gets online. D&T just doesn't have that cheap interaction, so it's easier for storm to go fast against them.

I think that discussion is next leveling it a bit too much imho. I'd never want to bring in Terminus/Entreat. Keeping in some number of STP(3) is the best option we have against storm postboard when we dont know what they are playing sideboard. Most frequently it will be Xantid Swarm anyway,and it takes YP/Dark Confidant too. One EE can be boarded in for any possible EtW/creatures. All these things are exactly the reason why I'm still playing 3 Flusterstorm and 3 Vendilion Clique in the sideboard. They are the best generic sideboard cards to bring in for any combo matchup and Clique+SCM provide more then enough pressure.

I'm playing 3 clique, 2 f-storm, 2 REB, 1 BEB, and an EE as well as 2 RIP for relevant storm cards. Between my sideboard and theirs, I'm not sure how to swap.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

Aww, three reports with Ponder lists! You guys really made my day! :D

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I also did well last weekend with ponder miracles. I went 4-1-1(ID) at a 40 man 1k, and split the top 8, but was seeded 3rd going into it.

2-1 Elves
0-2 Eli Kassis with his grixis brew
2-0 Sneak and Show
2-0 Elves
2-0 Maverick
ID with Hollywood on UR delver

It was my first time playing with containment priest in a tournament, and the card is nuts. It won me games in ways no other cards could have against both elves, maverick and sneak and show. Countering NO or GSZ and then having a blocker/attack after is amazing and against S&T, he scooped when I cast one on turn 3 with the intention for it to just eat a counter. The losses to Eli I mulled to 5 and 4 and both games, by turn 3 he had 7 cards in hand and I had zero (and only lands in play).


I have quiet a bit of experience against storm, and with the 4 ponder list, 2 pyroblast MD, my general boarding strategy is something like this:
-6 stp/terminus (4 stp if TES, 4 terminus if ANT)
-2 Entreat
-1 plains

+1 ee
+2 fluster
+2 clique
+1 pyroclasm (upgrade for stp/terminus)
+2 REB/BEB (BEB if TES)
+1 counterspell


Terminus is better vs TES since they will still win with empty sometimes. ANT will never bring empty vs us. If you see pyromancer, switch to terminus (this is pretty rare though).

Honestly, the best way to get better at the matchup is to playtest with and against storm. Playing WITH storm is super helpful. It teaches you all the lines they might take and lets you know what disrupts them best.

Joe Lossett used to play izzet staticaster since it answered all the creatures storm could bring in, YP, bob, xantid, empty the warrens. He switched to pyroclasm, I forget the exact reason why, it might be because it didn't get red blasted.

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect

I also did well last weekend with ponder miracles. I went 4-1-1(ID) at a 40 man 1k, and split the top 8, but was seeded 3rd going into it.

2-1 Elves
0-2 Eli Kassis with his grixis brew
2-0 Sneak and Show
2-0 Elves
2-0 Maverick
ID with Hollywood on UR delver

It was my first time playing with containment priest in a tournament, and the card is nuts. It won me games in ways no other cards could have against both elves, maverick and sneak and show. Countering NO or GSZ and then having a blocker/attack after is amazing and against S&T, he scooped when I cast one on turn 3 with the intention for it to just eat a counter. The losses to Eli I mulled to 5 and 4 and both games, by turn 3 he had 7 cards in hand and I had zero (and only lands in play).


I have quiet a bit of experience against storm, and with the 4 ponder list, 2 pyroblast MD, my general boarding strategy is something like this:
-6 stp/terminus (4 stp if TES, 4 terminus if ANT)
-2 Entreat
-1 plains

+1 ee
+2 fluster
+2 clique
+1 pyroclasm (upgrade for stp/terminus)
+2 REB/BEB (BEB if TES)
+1 counterspell


Terminus is better vs TES since they will still win with empty sometimes. ANT will never bring empty vs us. If you see pyromancer, switch to terminus (this is pretty rare though).

Honestly, the best way to get better at the matchup is to playtest with and against storm. Playing WITH storm is super helpful. It teaches you all the lines they might take and lets you know what disrupts them best.

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In other words: you are dead in the water if TES boards Xantids. ;D