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02-11-2018, 04:44 AM
MechTactical

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

I'm currently tackling two versions of bant post. One without GSZ and one with GSZ. The one without GSZ initially didn't include terminus. i experimented with [[personal tutor]] to bring up SNT alongside [[Eladamri's Call]] for fetching all creatures including elesh instead of using GSZ, then i realized it could be used to bring up some serious white sorceries not just snt. there are other considerations besides terminus, but terminus seems to be the best choice. currently i'm quite happy with the results. Still tweaking the list in terms of numbers and sideboard choices, but i have a good feeling about this bant list. the addition of two extra tutors helps a lot in a topless build. Currently I'm running two eladamri's and two personal tutors + 2 terminus. I'm especially intrigued about eladamri's call. It won me many games. Usually i just beat ppl down with repeated titans in other cases elesh was required or ulamog /emrakul (even caryatid for mana fixing - i had gaddock in for a long time, but i moved him to the board, though i feel he could still be main boarded since it's a blow out game 1 against storm - comes down a bit slower than in the GSZ version) if you have no access to eye or it gets destroyed. Being an instant that allows you to fetch on their EOT is amazing... the color requirements are big, but with 3x noble heirarch + 2x sylvan caryatid i feel confident. Still the occasional (usually self inflicted) mana screw does happen. I also ran iona, but i cut her in the latest builds since she's much harder to hard cast than elesh and your new kozilek plays a similar role. elesh on the other hand is brutal against elves and stuff like BladewingX pointed out earlier, and can still be hard cast. i ran birds of paradise b4 changing to noble hierarch. Still i feel that birds might be a better choice since we don't really benefit that much from exalted and it doesn't have flying ( sometimes i used birds to block flyers in a pinch).
oh and i also think i like silence currently in the side very spicy against combo and also good to protect against counter magic - its a mini cavern/temporal mastery all in one. any other spicy white cards you would recommend?
hehe just had a guy on affinity spill his guts over how terminus should be banned. in any case heres the list i was discussing - any brewing suggestions are welcome

3 [MM2:151] Noble Hierarch
1 [ONS:316] Flooded Strand
3 [ZEN:220] Misty Rainforest
4 [MMQ:61] Brainstorm
2 [LEA:288] Savannah
4 [USG:96] Show and Tell
4 [FNMP:120] Cloudpost
1 [ZEN:246] Forest
1 [LEG:248] Karakas
2 [3ED:303] Tropical Island
1 [MM2:16] Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 [TSP:281] Vesuva
2 [PLS:106] Eladamri's Call
2 [THS:180] Sylvan Caryatid
1 [ICE:331] Glacial Chasm
2 [ONS:328] Windswept Heath
1 [WWK:132] Bojuka Bog
1 [ROE:4] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [WWK:136] Eye of Ugin
4 [M12:188] Primeval Titan
2 [EMA:187] Sylvan Library
1 [OGW:4] Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 [ZEN:234] Island
2 [MM3:26] Terminus
1 [BFZ:15] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 [SOM:227] Glimmerpost
3 [DDR:7] Crop Rotation
2 [M10:68] Ponder
1 [LEB:285] Tundra
2 [POR:65] Personal Tutor

SB: 2 [MM2:99] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [ALA:10] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [ARB:75] Qasali Pridemage
SB: 2 [CMD:46] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [RTR:35] Cyclonic Rift
SB: 1 [ARB:8] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [LRW:248] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [RTR:18] Rest in Peace
SB: 1 [DKA:24] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 2 [TSP:202] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [M11:30] Silence
02-11-2018, 06:21 AM
Valleysdai

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

I've been working on a spicy build that's UG, but I'm testing out some black cards in the board:

Creatures
3 primeval titan
1 ulamog, the ceaseless hunger
1 emrakul the promised end
1 emrakul the aeons torn
1 kozilek the great distortion

Sorceries
3 show and tell
4 ponder

Instants
2 intuition
4 brainstorm
4 crop rotation

Enchantments
2 omniscience

Artefacts
2 pithing needle
2 amulet of vigor
1 candelabra

Lands
4 cloud post
4 glimmerpost
4 misty rainforest
4 tropical island
2 vesuva
1 thespian stage
1 dark depths
1 maze of ith
1 boseiju
1 cavern of souls
1 eye of ugin
1 glacial chasm
1 urborg tomb of yawgmoth
1 forest
1 island
1 bojuka bog
1 karakas
1 tabernacle

Sideboard
2 grafdiggers cage
2 noxious revival
1 flusterstorm
1 stifle
1 spellskite
1 cyclonic rift
1 mirage mirror
1 tragic lesson
1 beast within
2 krosan grip
1 notion thief
1 devastation tide

Omniscience has been amazing in the deck and enables the deck to leave the early game a lot sooner than usual, it also enables the infinite turns loop with emrakul the aeons torn.

My sideboard is in flux at the moment, I'm trying to find cards that are useful against the fast combo decks (like storm).

I find that the BR reanimator matchup is extremely favoured in my way as I haven't lost a game against it yet.

I am tempted to try a cpuple of root maze and maybe an arcane laboratory in the side to beat storm, etc.

EDIT: I may try a 1 of underground sea instead of the 4th tropical. I have a lot of cards I'm interested in trying in the sideboard (approx 20 cards). Has anyone tried epiphany at the drownyard or sudden reclamation?
02-20-2018, 06:19 PM
aedrew

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

Mengucci plays UG Post.

Nice to see some content for this deck.
02-22-2018, 07:23 AM
MechTactical

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

Quote:

Originally Posted by aedrew

Mengucci plays UG Post.

Nice to see some content for this deck.

Funny, I was testing mikokoro in my bant list and then i see this thing. I guess post decks nowadays should be called [country] post pile...
02-22-2018, 06:24 PM
aedrew

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

Quote:

Originally Posted by MechTactical

Funny, I was testing mikokoro in my bant list and then i see this thing. I guess post decks nowadays should be called [country] post pile...

How has Mikokoro worked for you? Do you see any application for it outside of semi-countering Infernal Tutor?
02-22-2018, 08:51 PM
prdgchild

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

Played c/g post last night:

Turbo Depths: Win (2-0): Made a token both games and killed them with it. Kinda new Turbo Depth player and mirage mirror is so silly.

Lands: Win (2-1): Close games. Mirage Mirror cause so many strange interactions. Copied exploration a few turns to dump hand.

Lands: Loss (1-2): Drew the krosan grip for needle to double wasteland me. Felt bad.

U/B Sneak/Show: Win (2-1): Sideboard tech sandwurm converegence both games, lol. Lost 1st game, boarded it in, mulled for it and both games he went for it and I had the token generator and his deck wasnt playing any way to bounce it lol, foolish deck building on his part.

All star of the night, pithing needle. Run 3, want 4. Might go to 61 cards for it.
02-23-2018, 12:34 AM
MechTactical

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

Quote:

Originally Posted by aedrew

How has Mikokoro worked for you? Do you see any application for it outside of semi-countering Infernal Tutor?

Outside of triggering miracles on the opponents turn it was potentially useful when you are in top deck mode or digging for a threat. Enables crop to draw a card. Nothing too fancy though. I guess that we can afford giving our foe extra cards mid-late game most of the time. Honestly, I didn't think about infernal tutor interaction until seeing the video and haven’t drawn it in that situation. I’m guessing that croping for it in response to infernal makes it even better since the opponent certainly won’t except it, but that’s a t3 play which is kinda late for storm. Not sure if it’s worth running outside of bant though. If you’re looking for more land utility it’s worth testing i guess?
03-05-2018, 12:40 PM
aedrew

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

Introduction
========
I'd like to share some deckbuilding ideas and a small tournament report. For a while now, I have played UG Post with counter magic in the sideboard for combo decks. I have never beat Storm with this configuration. Game 1, I accept that I will not win against a good hand, but I couldn't even take advantage if they stumble as the clock was just to slow and there was no disruption. Even post board, things were hard as they just wait for discard to make sure the coast is clear and sculpt a hand I can't beat. At the same time, I found Eldrazi Stompy hard to beat even though the match-up did not seem too bad on paper. Chalice on 1 and TKS made it hard to get something together even though my threats should just outclass them. Furthermore, in general the deck sometimes would just do nothing as I would get one half of the combo or cantrip into air or have the interaction not line up (e.g. bounce spell with no targets, Ugin versus Eldrazi or Ugin stranded with Show and Tell, Show and Tell plus an Eldrazi but they have Karakas, Candle without 2+ mana lands).

After Brainstorm and Map, I've primarily used Ponder and Sylvan Library to try for more consistency. Library was often disappointing. I'd either spend my turn casting it only to have it Abrupt Decayed before I got the first activation, face Leovold, or simply not have much life to spend on it or be stuck without a shuffle effect. Ponder has been good, but I think it is much less powerful in this deck than in others because it often takes your only colored source and thus often your whole turn is just pondering. Other decks that use Ponder have additional advantage as it works as a way to set up a Delver flip as well as a way to flip it or a way to set up Miracles. Furthermore, these decks can usually Ponder into a 1-mana card they can play that turn.

The concerns of having some game one chance versus combo, having more generally applicable interactions, and improving consistency by finding a use for dead cards leads me to want Force of Will in the main deck. This leads me to want to increase the blue count to at least 20. Four Brainstorm is easy. Four Show and Tell is reasonable. Some number of Perilous Voyage or your preferred bounce spell makes sense. I chose 3. Now, 4 Ponder also seems natural. I tried a build with 4 Ponder, 4 Force of Will, no Maps, and did okay but felt like I lost games against slower fair decks that I should be winning and though combo was improved, it was still easy to lose. However, getting to experience a game 1 win versus TES when the opponent went all in and I had Force plus blue card felt great and getting the game 1 gave me room to take the match 2-1. I think some number of Ponder may be good, but because of the above, I decided to try a different blue cantrip: Cloud of Faeries.

Cloud of Faeries provides instant-speed, basically uncounterable, card draw for colorless mana, which this deck often has excess of. It is a blue card that pitches to Force.
And, it is often as good as a Candelabra and rarely worse than one. Candle is an extremely powerful card, but is often a 1 mana do nothing without 2+ mana lands or other utility lands. It gets trapped behind Chalice and is vulnerable to Abrupt Decay and K Command. Cloud of Faeries provides the ramp of Candle with the needed blueness and is basically never dead. Least importantly, it is a creature, which can chump or beat down as needed and leaves behind Edict fodder when ramping into a real threat.

To make room for Force of Will and Cloud of Faeries, I ended up cutting an Ugin, old Kozilek, 2 Candles, maindeck EE, and the card selections slots I had given to some extra maps and Ponders. Cloud replaces Candle. EE and Ugin always felt more like sideboard cards. I found that I often have too many uncastable threats rather than too few. I also cut Glacial Chasm for a fifth blue fetch to support the increase in blue cards. Maybe I just am not skilled with Chasm, but it often felt like not enough to come back from behind and is real bad in the opening hand. This left me wanting one more blue card. I went with Clique because it is a hate bear that provides disruption plus clock versus combo, blue, can fix my hand, and fits the new Faerie theme.

Moving Force of Will to the main freed up a lot of sidebaord slots and let me add 2 Dismembers for Gurmag and Eldrazi, the EE from the maindeck, and some additional countermagic in Swan Song. I went with Swan Song instead of the fourth Flusterstorm partially to play around Cabal Therapy a bit and partly because of Animate Dead. I have been running two Revokers for a while and I think they are needed versus Storm (for LED or Petal plus beats) and have proven useful versus Sneak Attack. I had one slot left and used it for Void Winnower. This could really be anything, but the thought was I want to be able to up my threat count if needed. Winnower is an 11/9 that outclasses most creatures, comes out for one less than Ulamog, can't be chumped by tokens, can't be Karakased, and shuts off Life from the Loam and all the Storm win conditions. The problem with these types of cards is they often seem good, but really resolving any 8+ CMC spell should seem good when it happens. I think this could easily be Sandwurm Convergence,
new Emrakul, Kozilek, or some more cheap interaction.

I played something like this a little in online practice rooms and it felt good enough to keep testing. So I brought the following list to a small local weekly:

Faerie Post or 11-Post, 8-Cloud

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin

4 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

4 Show and Tell
4 Cloud of Faeries

4 Brainstorm
3 Crop Rotation
2 Expedition Map

4 Force of Will
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Perilous Voyage
3 Pithing Needle

Sideboard

1 Void Winnower
3 Flusterstorm
1 Swan Song
2 Dismember
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Round 1 v. Grixis Delver
=======
Game 1
------
On the draw, we both keep 7. Deathrite and Insectile Abberation start eating at my life total. I get a Needle on DRS and Wasteland to slow down the assault. At 7 life, I get a Primeval Titan into play and crawl back with chained Glimmer Posts, begin careful to stay out of range of crackback plus bolt.

Game 2
------
I shave on Show and Tell, Force of Will, and Cloud of Faeries and bring in Tab, Explosives, Dismember, and Flusterstorm. In retrospect, I should have also cut some Crop Rotations as I never felt like I could safely cast them through counter magic. I mull to 5 due to either too many dead cards or no colored mana. Opponent plays a good tempo game and I am never able to get much going and die to Young Pyro and friends. I made one mistake about timing my Perilous Voyages. I first cast one on Pyro in my main while he was tapped out, which I think was correct but then I followed the same play pattern later and did it in my main while opponent had mana open. Opponent Brainstormed into Daze and fetch then untapped with full mana and a sculpted hand. This should have been done on upkeep and I might have come back, as I had EE to clean up the tokens.

Game 3
------
We both keep 7. Opponent plays draw go up to 3 mana and I do nothing after my turn one Map. I wait to fetch and crack because I saw Stifle last game. Finally, opponent taps out to cast True-Name Nemesis and I take my opportunity, fetching twice and cracking Map for Cavern. I untap, play Cavern choosing Giant and cast my first Titan. Opponent gets rid of it with an Edict, but I have a second in my hand. At some point, Titan attack trigger earns a Stifle, which I Flusterstorm. Opponent Forces with pitch the original spell and pays for a copy. Pretty nice exchange for a Titan trigger. I draw a third Titan as we enter turns and opponent offers the concession.

1-0

Round 2 v. Pox
=======
Game 1
------
On the draw, I go to 5 while opponent keeps 6. After getting Wastelanded once, I resolve Needle and catch myself about to name Wasteland and instead name Liliana of the Veil. This was crucial, as opponent played the Planeswalker out anyway the next turn. Rack is slowly killing me. I am pretty dead with low resources but have a Emrakul in hand, so hoping to top deck Show and Tell and get lucky. It doesn't happen.

Game 2
------
I shave Force of Will, Show and Tell, Cloud of Faeries. Cut Bog. Bring in Revokers, Void Winnower, Flusterstorm, Swan Song, Krosan Grip. I keep 7 while opponent mulls to 5. Opponent is stuck on one land for a long time and casts a few things off of Dark Rituals but I get Revoker on Liliana plus hard cast Ulamog, taking all his mana and clean up.

Game 3
------
I keep a soft 7 while opponent mulls to 6. I have turn 1 needle and a Show and Tell with nothing to show but opponent turn 1 Thoughtseizes and takes Needle. I get a bit lucky and draw fetches and basics to get up to 3 mana around Wasteland and manage to draw Void Winnower. Show and tell in Winnower to his Swamp and it does some work. Prevents his suspended Nihilith from being cast, traps Hymn in his hand, and protects itself from Small Pox. Not to mention a 2-turn clock. He doesn't draw Liliana or Innocent Blood and Winnower takes it.

2-0

Round 3 v. Reanimator Storm
=======
Game 1
------
I am on the play but mull to 5 while opponent keeps 7. My hand is 3 Show and Tell, Vesuva, and Misty. I scry Brainstorm to the top and Vesuva my Misty in order to Brainstorm and fetch to improve my hand. At some point opponent bins a Griselbrand and hardcasts a Magus of the Mind, but I don't see much of what opponent is on and I am not familiar with this deck. Soon, I end-of-turn Crop Rotation for third Cloudpost into Cloud of Faeries to make 15 mana to hard cast Emrakul (had exactly 15 even without the Faeries if I cracked a fetch but this way I have Edict fodder I guess plus mana to spare).

Game 2
------
I board in Surgicals, Revokers, Flusterstorms, Swan Song, Winnower. I Board out some Needles and Show and Tell and a few Titans. We both keep 7. I get a Needle on Griselbrand and then Clique opponent in his draw step. I see and take a Shallow Grave, but opponent had redundent reanimation spell to go off that turn with a Magus of the Mind for 7+1 free cards into a lethal Tendrils. I might have taken this game if I got Bog with my Map instead of Cloudpost when a Magus was in the yard, but I was banking on Clique to prevent him from going off for one turn.

Game 3
------
I realize this version of reanimator is softer to Needle and better against Perilous Voyage, so I board out Voyages and bring some needles back. I keep a good 7 with Clique and Revoker and opponent mulls to 6. This game I just have it all: Needle on Magus, Clique, Revoker on LED, Flusterstorm, Surgical, Crop Rotation for Bog. I prevent him from doing anything while Clique and Revoker beat down.

3-0 for first place

Closing Thoughts
================
Having Force of Will main came into play against Delver, where it it would have let me force a Show and Tell through game 1, though it didn't come to that. I was able to hardcast Force to stop a crazy Pox enchantment. It also let me hold up protection while deploying threats versus Reanimator. Cloud of Faeries felt good as a glue card for the deck. It never was key but also never seemed like a bad draw as I could pitch to Force or just cycle on 2 mana without fear of Daze. I also had a couple hands with Cloud of Faeries that let me blank Duress and Collective Brutality. Having only 6 Show and Tell targets in the main felt fine and I never found myself with dead Show and Tells or no threat for long. Needle was good in all matches, but three Needles felt fine.
03-08-2018, 06:12 PM
caw_86

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

Possible new card
Stabilization Ball 2
Artifact
If a land would produce two or more mana, it produces nothing instead.
Spells cost {1} more to cast for each other spell cast that turn.
03-09-2018, 05:08 AM
Valleysdai

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

Quote:

Originally Posted by caw_86

Possible new card
Stabilization Ball 2
Artifact
If a land would produce two or more mana, it produces nothing instead.
Spells cost {1} more to cast for each other spell cast that turn.

The translation I saw had that those lands tap for colourless and the anti storm is based on that player's storm count.
03-17-2018, 05:26 PM
aedrew

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

There's a 5-0 bant post list published. Congrats to Mikre.
03-18-2018, 04:15 AM
nimkee

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

What are the 4 Trinisphere for? Storm? It never comes down before turn 2, it seems like it would be difficult to get into play. Are there any other matchups it comes in for?

I'm assuming Leylines come in against Depths and Storm. Anything else?

Quote:

Originally Posted by aedrew

There's a 5-0 bant post list published. Congrats to Mikre.
03-18-2018, 08:48 AM
MechTactical

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

Quote:

Originally Posted by nimkee

What are the 4 Trinisphere for? Storm? It never comes down before turn 2, it seems like it would be difficult to get into play. Are there any other matchups it comes in for?

I'm assuming Leylines come in against Depths and Storm. Anything else?

i tested portend in my bant quest. Though at the end of the day i think I dislike the full set. Instead I ran at least a split with ponder. Ponder can draw you action while portend is only better for setting miracles on the next upkeep or cast portend on your opponent, which didn’t seem to be critical in most games. On the other hand you can top-lock the opponent in corner cases.

I took the mikre list out for a spin. the list feels well balanced. My bant lists were always "more white" orianted in terms of SB and MB card choices, which may not be the way to build bant. The artifact package adds the much needed consistency. While I would never consider the same SB choices a match against reanimator proved to me that the choices are legit. i won reanimator with needles, leyline and trini. felt weird being without surgical but i guess this setting can compensate for that.
03-20-2018, 04:13 AM
nimkee

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

I've been tuning this list the last couple of weeks, and went 3-0 with it last night. I'll write a shortish tourney report, ask if you are curious on the sideboarding. I wasn't too ambitious with the write up.

My goals with the deck, aside from the typical 12 post infinite turns, is to have better all around matchups. Specifically, I want to improve combo, chalice, and blood moon matchups.

My ideal plan against combo is t1 therapy, into flash back and then a t3 tks, or crop rotate into bog. It worked pretty well last night. Chaining quick TKS's is also surprisingly effective.

Lands - 26
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
1 Vesuva
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Bojuka Bog

1 Wastes
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Swamp
2 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Llanowar Wastes - important for providing all 3 colors
1 Dryad Arbor - easily accessible Therapy fodder

Creatures - 15
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Oracle of Mul Daya - so so performer
4 ThoughtKnot Seer
3 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Spells - 20
2 Mox Diamond
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Expedition Map
2 Crop Rotation

3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Warping Wail
1 Mirage Mirror - so so performer
2 Sylvan Library
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay

Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle --> could be another spyglass
1 Sorcerer's Spyglass
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Toxic Deluge (didn't use tonight)
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (didn't use tonight)
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Warping Wail
1 Crop Rotation
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Choke
1 Maelstrom Pulse

-----

I went 3-0. 2-0 against rb reanimator, 2-0 against splinter twin stompy, and 2-1 against dark miracles.

I went on the play against reanimator and therapied away a reanimate. He stripped my titan, and then later exhumed a griselbrand to my titan. I fetched up Karakas, and a post. He managed to stick two Chancellors into play, putting him at 3 (animate dead plus reanimate). I bounced griselbrand, and attacked with the titan, fetching up a glimmer and cloudpost. He double blocks, we trade. I have enough to gsz for another titan into glimmer and eye, I’m at 22 and just win from there.

Game 2 I keep a 7 with therapy, warping wail, and surgical extraction. He leads into faithless, ditching an exhume and something else. I lead with diamond, therapy, and a glimmerpost. I strip his reanimate. He faithless’s into a griselbrand, which I just extract because I want to see what is in his hand. I untap and keep up warping wail mana while playing lands until he goes to reanimate something else. From there I play tracker into an explorer, flash back therapy, make clues and clean up.

Match 2 vs Splinter Twin stompy…I therapied him hitting force of will, decayed his bloodmoon, warping wailed his dude, then cleaned up with TKS. He played a t2 chalice but it didn't do anything. Game two was longer, but I had a variety of answers for his 3 blood moons, bridge, and chalice, along with warping wail for his dude again. Playing through chalice and blood moon wasn't a problem at all, which was one of the things I was aiming for with this deck.

Match 3 vs Dark miracles was longer and grindy. I won off a resolved sylvan game 1. Game 2 I got hammered with double fow into ashiok into mentor and then jace. It was ugly. The black splash was for ashiok and vindicate. He also sided in a rather cheeky noxious revival for his miracles.

Game 3 started off with double therapy off of a mox diamond. I took a force of will, and then a ponder in a one land hand keep with Jace, Entreat, Terminus, and snapcaster I think. It was a long game but I ended up pulling it out. WW countered a temporal mastery. He topdecked repeated force of wills, countering a titan, and then a GSZ for a titan. I slammed a titan the following turn. Good luck vs great luck.

He had to choose between vindicating an active titan or an eye. He chose the titan, and I won a few turns later.
03-20-2018, 03:22 PM
Leshrac82

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

Quote:

Originally Posted by nimkee

I've been tuning this list the last couple of weeks, and went 3-0 with it last night. I'll write a shortish tourney report, ask if you are curious on the sideboarding. I wasn't too ambitious with the write up.

My goals with the deck, aside from the typical 12 post infinite turns, is to have better all around matchups. Specifically, I want to improve combo, chalice, and blood moon matchups.

My ideal plan against combo is t1 therapy, into flash back and then a t3 tks, or crop rotate into bog. It worked pretty well last night. Chaining quick TKS's is also surprisingly effective.

Nice list, some similarities to my lists but still very different in other ways - you are still focussing mostly on the 12-post plan with 3 Primeval Titans, while i haven't played more than 1 in a while and i reduced the number of Posts to the bare minimum to have more colored mana and room for Dark Dephts. And you went Allin on the TKS plan, while i tested 1 or 2 in the early stages of the deck and eventually dropped it: From my experience, it's just too slow in our deck - it's very hard to play on t2, and on t3 it's often too late. Eldrazi Stompy decks can reliably cast it on t2 most of the time, that one turn matters a lot.

After i convinced myself to try my deck without Mox Diamonds (see my last Post in the NicFit thread) i just got reminded how important they ultimately are (my winrate dropped a lot without them and the deck felt really awkward sometimes with very slow starts, i brought them back and i'm happy again), and i definitely like them in your deck too.

I replaced my Oracle with a Courser a while ago, and never looked back: The lifegain can be very relevant and is much more important than the extra land, and Courser doesn't die to Bolt.

I see you are playing 2x Choke in the sideboard. I am thinking about that option, since i had more problems against Miracles than i like (just going by the numbers Miracles would be my worst matchup on Magic Online, which is kinda ridiculous) and this seems like a good sideboard card that has enough other applications.
Question: How good is Choke and in what matchups? I often see it in Maverick sideboards, but they have Wastelands, we don't. It's probably fine to bring in against Delver and every fair blue deck, but is it relevant enough against combo decks like Storm and SnT? And is it generally good enough, since most fair blue decks are playing Deathrite Shaman? A different idea would be Carpet of Flowers for the opposite effect.
03-20-2018, 06:33 PM
nimkee

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leshrac82

Nice list, some similarities to my lists but still very different in other ways - you are still focussing mostly on the 12-post plan with 3 Primeval Titans, while i haven't played more than 1 in a while and i reduced the number of Posts to the bare minimum to have more colored mana and room for Dark Dephts. And you went Allin on the TKS plan, while i tested 1 or 2 in the early stages of the deck and eventually dropped it: From my experience, it's just too slow in our deck - it's very hard to play on t2, and on t3 it's often too late. Eldrazi Stompy decks can reliably cast it on t2 most of the time, that one turn matters a lot.

After i convinced myself to try my deck without Mox Diamonds (see my last Post in the NicFit thread) i just got reminded how important they ultimately are (my winrate dropped a lot without them and the deck felt really awkward sometimes with very slow starts, i brought them back and i'm happy again), and i definitely like them in your deck too.

I replaced my Oracle with a Courser a while ago, and never looked back: The lifegain can be very relevant and is much more important than the extra land, and Courser doesn't die to Bolt.

I see you are playing 2x Choke in the sideboard. I am thinking about that option, since i had more problems against Miracles than i like (just going by the numbers Miracles would be my worst matchup on Magic Online, which is kinda ridiculous) and this seems like a good sideboard card that has enough other applications.
Question: How good is Choke and in what matchups? I often see it in Maverick sideboards, but they have Wastelands, we don't. It's probably fine to bring in against Delver and every fair blue deck, but is it relevant enough against combo decks like Storm and SnT? And is it generally good enough, since most fair blue decks are playing Deathrite Shaman? A different idea would be Carpet of Flowers for the opposite effect.

I had a lot of similar lines of thought. Instead of reducing the posts I took out the DD, and then added the Llanowar for a 3 in one mana fixer. T2 TKS doesn't happen very often, but a single therapy in T1 or 2 often isn't enough to wrap up combo matches. Some density of therapy, wail, tks, and crop rotation seems to do well. I occasionally can search up and cast TKS on a stalled board for immediate blocker / hand clear before going to something bigger. TKS has also been real useful for simply clearing out counter magic / removal / snapcasters / Jace, and following up with a therapy is usually game over. They were good against Miracles.

The mox diamonds are very important for consistency. I 100% snagged that from your list about 70 some pages back! I am iffy on the Oracle and had wondered about using Courser many times. I worry about the double green. That's the main thing, especially in the early turns. That life gain would have won me a couple of games in the past. Do you ever have problems casting him? Is your mana-base similar to mine?

Choke is good when it lands. I wouldn't side it in against SnT, and I am less sure against Storm. I think this version has better all around matchups than the other post lists I've played, but because of that Choke helps push it over the edge a bit with the blue decks. 4 therapy, 2 warping wail, 4 tks, chains, and 3 crop rotations for bog is already a fair bit of hate. Ratchet bomb might be worth it too I suppose for those zero drops, or to hold up for empty if nothing else. Storm needs repeated kicks once they are down. That deck can crawl back from some unlikely spots.

Multiple titans has been fairly important for me. Having at least 2 has won me several games. I was a bit torn on cavern but opted for zero to help out with consistency in my mana base.

What list are you working with now?
03-20-2018, 07:42 PM
Leshrac82

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

Quote:

Originally Posted by nimkee

I had a lot of similar lines of thought. Instead of reducing the posts I took out the DD, and then added the Llanowar for a 3 in one mana fixer. T2 TKS doesn't happen very often, but a single therapy in T1 or 2 often isn't enough to wrap up combo matches. Some density of therapy, wail, tks, and crop rotation seems to do well. I occasionally can search up and cast TKS on a stalled board for immediate blocker / hand clear before going to something bigger. TKS has also been real useful for simply clearing out counter magic / removal / snapcasters / Jace, and following up with a therapy is usually game over. They were good against Miracles.

The mox diamonds are very important for consistency. I 100% snagged that from your list about 70 some pages back! I am iffy on the Oracle and had wondered about using Courser many times. I worry about the double green. That's the main thing, especially in the early turns. That life gain would have won me a couple of games in the past. Do you ever have problems casting him? Is your mana-base similar to mine?

Choke is good when it lands. I wouldn't side it in against SnT, and I am less sure against Storm. I think this version has better all around matchups than the other post lists I've played, but because of that Choke helps push it over the edge a bit with the blue decks. 4 therapy, 2 warping wail, 4 tks, chains, and 3 crop rotations for bog is already a fair bit of hate. Ratchet bomb might be worth it too I suppose for those zero drops, or to hold up for empty if nothing else. Storm needs repeated kicks once they are down. That deck can crawl back from some unlikely spots.

Multiple titans has been fairly important for me. Having at least 2 has won me several games. I was a bit torn on cavern but opted for zero to help out with consistency in my mana base.

What list are you working with now?

Interesting - i win so many games with DD, i wouldn't ever cut it - but i just watched Ehhh stream my deck and he plays it differently and doesn't use DD that much, so i guess it's mostly about the playstyle. Instead of TKS i have the white splash for Teeg against combo, that just wins the game against Storm on the spot and is very useful against Elves too (and has some use against SnT).

My manabase is similar, you are on 13 green sources and i'm going back and forth between 13 and 14. I almost never have issues with double green for Courser.

I played 2 Titans for a while before the Top ban, because it was very relevant against Miracles, i think i cut the 2nd Titan directly after the ban. Maybe having a 2nd one would help with my Miracles problems, have to think about that a bit.

Maybe i'll just try Choke for a while and see how it feels. Maybe a 2nd Titan too - it's only really relevant against Miracles.

The last successful list i 5-0ed with is this one: www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/982314

Current spots in discussion for me:
The Titania is currently just another Fetchland. Could also go down on mana sources again and maybe turn that into a 2nd Titan. Or go back to Titania.
The Abrupt Decays in the maindeck are kinda flexspots. It's either the most relevant removal spell (Abrupt Decay, Collective Brutality or Swords to Plowshares) or currently just Lingering Souls (that card has overperformed so much for me).
The board is constantly changing a little bit.
03-21-2018, 12:28 AM
nimkee

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leshrac82

Interesting - i win so many games with DD, i wouldn't ever cut it - but i just watched Ehhh stream my deck and he plays it differently and doesn't use DD that much, so i guess it's mostly about the playstyle. Instead of TKS i have the white splash for Teeg against combo, that just wins the game against Storm on the spot and is very useful against Elves too (and has some use against SnT).

My manabase is similar, you are on 13 green sources and i'm going back and forth between 13 and 14. I almost never have issues with double green for Courser.

I played 2 Titans for a while before the Top ban, because it was very relevant against Miracles, i think i cut the 2nd Titan directly after the ban. Maybe having a 2nd one would help with my Miracles problems, have to think about that a bit.

Maybe i'll just try Choke for a while and see how it feels. Maybe a 2nd Titan too - it's only really relevant against Miracles.

The last successful list i 5-0ed with is this one: www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/982314

Current spots in discussion for me:
The Titania is currently just another Fetchland. Could also go down on mana sources again and maybe turn that into a 2nd Titan. Or go back to Titania.
The Abrupt Decays in the maindeck are kinda flexspots. It's either the most relevant removal spell (Abrupt Decay, Collective Brutality or Swords to Plowshares) or currently just Lingering Souls (that card has overperformed so much for me).
The board is constantly changing a little bit.

This is awesome!! Have you been posting this in the Nic Fit thread? My take on the deck is a tad more in the post direction, yours in Nic Fit, so I can see why people might not take to it as a post deck. Nic Fit was my first legacy deck. I love your GSZ toolkit. Titania is one of my favs.

Tracker has been amazing for me, he would be the first card I double up on. Crop rotation is an odd card for me - I often side it out completely against counter magic decks because I end up getting 2 for 1'd. I was testing with a friend and he pointed out that DD seemed like more of a win-more card for me, that it rarely won me matches I wasn't already winning. That's what made me decide to move some pieces around.

Gaddock is great game 1. I tend to have less luck with him post board. TKS gives me better all around game, though definitely not the raw stopping power. When I played scooze I had some issue coming up with green to make him relevant against control (he usually ate removal quite quickly). What do you most often use him for?

What sort of a role has Ballista played for you? Do you often search it up with eye, a jace killer, or just to ping various dudes? I would like it as a one of in my main, at least.

What are the Swords and Lingering for out of the board?

When I first tried a list more similar to this it was without the diamonds and I had mana issues. I never tested it with the diamonds - results speak for themselves though! I think I just barraged you with about every question I could think of. Sorry about that! Thanks for sharing^^

Edit: found your post on the Nic Fit thread, am reading through some of it now.
03-21-2018, 09:20 AM
Leshrac82

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

Quote:

Originally Posted by nimkee

This is awesome!! Have you been posting this in the Nic Fit thread? My take on the deck is a tad more in the post direction, yours in Nic Fit, so I can see why people might not take to it as a post deck. Nic Fit was my first legacy deck. I love your GSZ toolkit. Titania is one of my favs.

Tracker has been amazing for me, he would be the first card I double up on. Crop rotation is an odd card for me - I often side it out completely against counter magic decks because I end up getting 2 for 1'd. I was testing with a friend and he pointed out that DD seemed like more of a win-more card for me, that it rarely won me matches I wasn't already winning. That's what made me decide to move some pieces around.

Gaddock is great game 1. I tend to have less luck with him post board. TKS gives me better all around game, though definitely not the raw stopping power. When I played scooze I had some issue coming up with green to make him relevant against control (he usually ate removal quite quickly). What do you most often use him for?

What sort of a role has Ballista played for you? Do you often search it up with eye, a jace killer, or just to ping various dudes? I would like it as a one of in my main, at least.

What are the Swords and Lingering for out of the board?

When I first tried a list more similar to this it was without the diamonds and I had mana issues. I never tested it with the diamonds - results speak for themselves though! I think I just barraged you with about every question I could think of. Sorry about that! Thanks for sharing^^

Edit: found your post on the Nic Fit thread, am reading through some of it now.

I started posting only in the Nic Fit thread when i got a lot of responses there and no responses here, i just figured Nic Fit players were more interested in the deck. :wink:

Crop Rotation is great against many combo decks (usually to get Bojuka Bog, but i like the option to go for a fast DD kill too) and also good against non-blue decks. It's a little awkward against blue decks sometimes - i personally think it's ok against Delver in response to Wasteland, but i usually side it out against blue decks without Wastelands. Overall that's the reason for the 2/2 split, it's not that great against some of the most played decks in the format but great against everything else.
About DD, when another 12-post player was watching my games on xmage he pointed out how often i used it compared to him, and that made me play the 2nd Stage for the 4th Glimmerpost at the time (the 4th Cloudpost went away later), and at least for my playstyle it was a very good and very relevant change.

Tracker is the engine that keeps the deck running - imo you need some kind of card advantage tool to outgrind the fair decks. Or you need to focus much more on the combo aspects of the deck and make an early Eldrazi more likely, but i prefer grinding, the other direction is what most other 12-post decks have tried for years.

Scooze has many uses. It can shut the door on some combo decks: It's usually not good enough to beat Reanimator alone, but after you dealt with their first combo attempt it's the best way to shut down their combo forever. Similar but even better against Dredge. Also very relevant against Lands. And against other fair decks, when it comes down later in the game i usually have the mana to make it a game ending threat, ideally it comes down right after a boardwipe. Earlier in the game it depends, but most of the time green mana isn't a big issue. And if it lives, it can shut down Deathrite and Snapcaster.

Ballista is a manasink without costing much mana. It can come down early for 2 mana and just trade with a creature if you need to. Or come down for 4 mana, kill a creature and still remain in play turning it into a 2-for-1 already. Or come down later and just wipe the board against some decks, often still staying in play. It can kill planeswalkers like Jace sometimes. Also more relevant than you would think: It can kill your own Explorer when you don't have a sacrifice outlet. Later in the game if i have the mana i usually search Eldrazi with Eye, but in some situations you might prefer a Ballista, sometimes just to directly kill the opponent.

Swords are just another removal spell, at the time i wanted something relevant against Delver that has also some use against certain combo decks (Reanimator, Turbo Depths). At the moment i have cut the Swords again, but they are always an option.

Lingering Souls are many things, i board them in against pretty much every fair deck. The many different uses:
1. It's often something between 1 and 4 fogs by blocking their biggest threat, buying me time to develop the board - similar to something like Moment's Peace, with different upsides and downsides. It helps that they fly, you can block Delver, Flickerwisp and even Marit Lage. Only againt TNN and threats with Trample (mostly Elves) it's really worse than a fog.
2. It presents an unexpected angle of attack: They prepare for one big threat out of this deck, if you go wide you can catch some fair decks by surprise. Diabolic Edict doesn't look that good any more against 4 Spirit Tokens.
3. Their evasion turns them into a good Jace killer. Planeswalkers and Jace in particular can be a problem, this helps a lot.
03-21-2018, 02:49 PM
Valleysdai

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

I am intrigued by the white you both run, did you try other colours before choosing white?

I'm on the UG plan with some spice (omniscience, intuition, amulet of vigor, urborg and notion thief in the side).

I do get hampered by chalice and few recurring draw engines. Combo decks are an instant lose too. How do your decks fair with those issues?
03-21-2018, 03:30 PM
Leshrac82

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valleysdai

I am intrigued by the white you both run, did you try other colours before choosing white?

I'm on the UG plan with some spice (omniscience, intuition, amulet of vigor, urborg and notion thief in the side).

I do get hampered by chalice and few recurring draw engines. Combo decks are an instant lose too. How do your decks fair with those issues?

I tried a red splash very early on and it was bad, i tried splashing blue for Leovold for a while, but isn't worth it and having a bigger splash for Brainstorm takes too many slots and doesn't fit into this style of deck. If you are running GSZ, especially on Magic Online where Storm is still probably the 2nd most played deck even though it's bad in the current metagame, you really want to have Gaddock Teeg to have a shot to win game 1, and postboard white also provides better hate than other colors. Also, Knight of the Reliquary is really strong if you untap with it. I experimented a little bit without the white splash, but couldn't make it work against combo without the white hate cards - just discard isn't good enough.

Chalice isn't very good against me. It hits a few cards and that can occasionally be relevant, but if i would play a Chalice deck against my deck, i would board it out. (It hits Crop Rotation. It kinda hits Cabal Therapy, but i board that out very often, and even in game 1 the most important thing with Therapy against those decks is to have it as a sacrifice outlet for Veteran Explorer. It hits Veteran Explorer too, but in only play 2 and it's far more likely i search for it with GSZ.) This deck is probably favored against most Chalice decks (my winrate against Eldrazi is positive and my winrate against Mono-Red Prison is even better).

Overall the deck beats pretty much every fair deck - i really need a bigger sample size to say that with confidence about all the different decks, and many matchups are pretty close, but there isn't a single fair deck i'm really worried about (apart from my bad run against Miracles, but that has to be mostly variance). Tracker is very good as a draw engine.
About combo decks, it depends:
Storm is unfavorable, but close - almost certainly over 40% (my winrate on Magic Online is around 45% against Storm, and i lost many games to my own mistakes because for that matchup all my testing on xmage was worthless).
Turbo Depths is favorable, my guess is at least around 60%.
Dredge is very favorable, my guess is over 70%.
Elves is close, can't say either way but definitely between 40 and 60%. All the boardwipes help a lot, and Elves is slow enough for my own DD combo to be very relevant and occasionally fast enough even without any hate.
BR-Reanimator is close, i think slightly under 50%.
SnT is really bad. I think it's winnable (30-40% maybe) if they don't play Omni, but if they do it's probably under 20%. Nothing to do about that, i tried for a while, but playing sideboard cards specifically for that matchup hurts too many other matchups, and SnT isn't a large part of the metagame right now.
Can't really say anything about other combo decks, all the glass cannon decks that go for T1 kills are probably pretty bad, but they aren't really a big part of the metagame. Midrange combo decks like Aluren or Food Chain should be fine.
03-21-2018, 10:35 PM
Leshrac82

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

Just got another 5-0 today (and a 4-1 in the League before that).

Maindeck is mostly the same as the last 5-0 (ignoring all the changes i made between these Leagues, because most of them were probably not good), i just removed the Titania and moved the 2nd Pernicious Deed into the maindeck.
Sideboard had some changes:

2x Thoughtseize
2x Surgical
2x Lingering Souls
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Reclamation Sage
2x Crop Rotation
2x Choke
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

There was some luck and non-games involved, but anyway, here are the matches:
Storm (ANT):
Game 1: I know what he's playing (because i just played him in my last match in the league before that). Start with T1 Therapy (i think blind hitting Infernal Tutor), Exlorer, T2 GSZ->Teeg.
Game 2: He keeps 7, i mulligan to 4. And i still almost get there because he kept a very reactive hand, unfortunately for me he draws his 4th removal spell to kill my Teeg and finally go off before i can find anything else, on Turn 7 or so.
Game 3: My sideboard change for today pays off with T2 Thalia (after i just kept up Crop Rotation T1). He is stuck on 1 Land and eventually concedes.
Lands:
Game 1: He has Exploration and eventually Loam going, but i know his hand, i have Knight and Ballista, since he isn't threatening the combo i can attack with the Knight and kill him before he dredges into anything dangerous. He concedes the match. (Probably a good idea, i have lost to Lands before, but i haven't lost 2 sideboard games in the same match against Lands yet with this.)
UB-Painter (or something like that, maybe even Grixis but i didn't see any red cards):
Game 1: He is stuck on 1 land and it's not really a game.
Game 2: He gets his combo into play, activates it, sees Emrakul and concedes. If he didn't board in any answer probably a good idea, he wasn't beating my board (i thin i had Knight and Tracker going).
Depths:
Game 1: I have to Crop Rotate into Karakas on T1 against his discard. He has Needle for that and Ghost Quarter for my Stage, but i'm attacking him down with an otherwise pretty useless Knight. He eventually gets Marit Lage into play, i force his GQ to kill my Stage, i have Library in play and tons of outs at this point: Abrupt Decay or Deed kill his Needle and makes Karakas active, Crop Rotation with the Knight in play would get my own Marit Lage, and finally what i draw is a Tracker which puts him dead on board when he attacks, while i'm at 21 life after fetching a Glimmerpost with Knight. Next turn i find Deed and that's it.
Game 2: He mulligans to 4 while i keep a sketchy 7 that doesn't have any hate cards. I probably should have mulliganed that. He hits some perfect topdecks and goes for it and my Knight would be one turn too slow.
Game 3: I discard his Spirit Guide T1, he has Stage and Depths but no other mana. Eventually i go for it with Crop->Stage to steal his Marit Lage - wouldn't win against another Spirit Guide because he could Crop for Karakas, but he doesn't have it.
Aggro-Loam:
Game 1: I have Therapy and Explorer, take his Knight and leave him with Dark Confidant and Library. But since he doesn't have any removal i can GSZ->Tracker, he doesn't find any removal either and that completely takes over the game.
Game 2: My T2 Ballista keeps his Liliana in check for one turn and my RecSage destroys his Sylvan Library, but he has Toxic Deluge and then Ajani - no way i'm winning from there against those 2 planeswalkers, i try but it's hopeless.
Game 3: He has lots of answers, especially his PFire keeps killing all my threats because he is kinda flooded and has enough mana for that. Funny thing: With Courser in play it's a bad idea to Crop Rotate for Bojuka Bog to get rid of PFire - we both realized that at the same time (or rather you should pay attention how you stack the triggers, i certainly didn't). I got rid of his Dark Confidant with Toxic Deluge early and he doesn't find any threats, while i have Library going. After i resolved Primeval Titan he has StP for that and GQ for my Eye of Ugin, but eventually i find Emrakul to end the game.

Didn't get to test the Chokes in this League or the one before that (i boarded them in against Storm, but they were completely useless in those games, also boarded them in against that Painter deck but didn't see them).
Thalia was really good on the other hand - another hatebear against Storm is probably a good idea, and in the League before that i played against Infect twice and Thalia won me a game there too. I wanted to try some tax effect as hate alongside Choke. I was thinking about Trinisphere before that as a different option, but i think Thalia is better because she definitely comes down before turn 3, and from my experience hatecards on turn 3 and later just don't matter against Storm.
03-22-2018, 01:41 AM
TLK

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

Congrats! Awesome results. What’s the Bog/Courser/P Fire interaction?
03-22-2018, 08:39 AM
Leshrac82

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLK

Congrats! Awesome results. What’s the Bog/Courser/P Fire interaction?

If you stack it wrong (like i did obviously :rolleyes: ), you gain the life from the land coming into play before Bog clears their graveyard. And so they get the PFire back.
03-22-2018, 08:55 AM
nimkee

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leshrac82

If you stack it wrong (like i did obviously :rolleyes: ), you gain the life from the land coming into play before Bog clears their graveyard. And so they get the PFire back.

Nice write up! White really does have some of the best sideboard cards. I'm going to stick with the TKS for a bit longer - I wish I had the deck on mtgo. I'm torn on buying cards I already in paper though :/

I'm really not sure on sideboarding choke against storm either - there are plenty of other things I would rather have, though unfortunately I don't have a lot of solid permanent based hate in my current configuration.

Ballista for your explorers is aaaaawesome. It hadn't even crossed my mind. I like the idea of lingering souls. Jace IS a problem when he resolves. Him bouncing TKS is especially annoying.
03-22-2018, 02:20 PM
Valleysdai

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

@leshrac82 have you thought of testing enlightened tutor? It seems like it hits quite a bit of your answers
03-22-2018, 04:00 PM
Leshrac82

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valleysdai

@leshrac82 have you thought of testing enlightened tutor? It seems like it hits quite a bit of your answers

I did that a while ago, the deck looked very different then. It worked for some matchups, but overall the deck got a lot worse, no matter how i build the tutor package.

And with the current deck, i don't see any reason to do this: I have Deed, Library, Courser, Ballista, Choke and Ethersworn as possible targets. Only Ethersworn is good against combo decks, everything else is against fair decks, and Enlightened Tutor is card disadvantage and therefore not good against fair decks (that was the main result of my testing, there is no card so impactful against fair decks that it's worth the card disadvantage).
03-27-2018, 09:11 AM
Leshrac82

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

Last night i played a match that was streamed by jarvisyu from the other side: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/243240739 (match starts around 2:49).

I watched the video (and not the stream like at least some of his viewers were suggesting), here is what was happening from my side:
Game 1:
I paused against the DRS turn 1: I was expecting him to play Lands because he is known for that, i kept a hand that could play a T3 5/5 Knight out of just basics and that's usually good enough against Lands. Also i was planning to play Cabal Therapy on turn 1, and that plan wasn't really working any more now.
On turn 3, i wanted to play therapy and flash it back to clear out the way for my Knight next turn. I played Teeg first to be able to flash it back in any case. After that resolved, and the Therapy resolved too, Lightning Bolt was the most logical choice to name: He would have used Daze if he had it (and i can play the Knight around 1 Daze). If he has FoW, he can't play it with Teeg in play, and without Bolt he can't get Teeg of the battlefield. Also, a Bolt could very likely kill the Knight with DRS on the table. Then i made a mistake: I abandoned my plan to flash back the Therapy since his FoW was shut of by Teeg anyway, but since he had Wasteland in hand, my Knight wasn't able to bring the fast Marit Lage kill i was planning (by fetching just basics i didn't even give him the chance to use it), so i probably needed more action after the Knight - i should have flashbacked Therapy here mostly to get rid of the Teeg and turn on my GSZs again.
I get punished for that mistake immediately by drawing 2x GSZ in a row.
Now i needed to get his Wasteland of the table to stick a Marit Lage, the best way to do that was to fetch Cloudposts and threaten Eldrazi. When i fetched the Glimmerpost and copied Cloudpost with Stage, this was my thought process: I needed to get life not to die next turn. If he didn't waste here, i was probably screwed (or at least i had fewer outs), but since nobody plays a second Stage like me, this play was most likely inducing him to waste the Stage. If he does that, i still need to draw something, but i had some outs that would at least beat him if he doesn't draw anything (i'm counting: 2x Toxic Deluge, 2x Pernicious Deed, 2x Crop Rotation, 1x Stage, 1x Depths, 1x Ballista, 1x Primeval Titan, 1x Ulamog, 2x Glimmerpost, 1x Eye of Ugin, 2x Lingering Souls would ge me more time and even if i don't draw anything i can fetch another Glimmerpost for a redraw with probably fewer outs). If he wastes the copied Cloudpost instead, i could just get Marit Lage.
Since i draw my second Stage for the turn, going for Marit Lage was clearly the best play - he needed to draw 2 Bolts (or Bolt + TNN) to win against that.
Game 2:
To keep that hand was a gamble, but i think it was correct: I had enough land, i had a Toxic Deluge and i had a black source to go with it. I really only needed to find a green source in my first 4 drawsteps, including Mox Diamond. And a white source would make Lingering Souls possible, that would probably buy me some time too.
My draws this game were pretty good and from there the hand played itself. If he didn't Bolt me and instead held it for my Tracker, he would have lost that to the Cabal Therapy - i was blind naming Bolt again, since that was again the most dangerous card (and i was kinda expecting there to be another Bolt too because he knew about the Tracker).
(Note: The GSZ would have just gotten another Tracker in this spot most likely - i was thinking about Courser as the only other option, after drawing the Therapy it would have been Tracker for sure. Didn't have enough fodder for Knight for that to be good enough, didn't have enough green mana for Scooze to be good enough, and didn't want to wait for enough mana for Primeval Titan.)

About possible changes to the deck: I'm currently playing the Lingering Souls main again over Abrupt Decay (it just keeps overperforming, while all the spot removal spells underperformed - i really don't like spot removal that much in this deck, i'm playing so many lands, my spells need to be better than just 1-for-1s that are dead cards some of the time), i got rid of the Chokes in the sideboard (useless against Storm, and probably not what i want against Delver either - Delver usually beats me with very aggressive starts, i almost always win the long game, and Choke doesn't help against that. that just leaves me with other fair blue decks, i didn't get to test it against those, but i don't think it's worth it for just those matchups), i'm trying out Sorcerous Spyglass in the board (with mixed results so far - it won me a few games on the spot and it was pretty useless some other times).
And i'm also playing a Vesuva again and removed the 3rd Glimmerpost for that, mostly to have access to a 2nd Bojuka Bog when i need it (already won me some games).
03-28-2018, 01:24 PM
Valleysdai

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leshrac82

Last night i played a match that was streamed by jarvisyu from the other side: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/243240739 (match starts around 2:49).

I watched the video (and not the stream like at least some of his viewers were suggesting), here is what was happening from my side...

Nice write up, I am interested in how the deck does, it is an interesting way of taking it.

What are your thoughts of it on paper? I know that the meta game is a lot different online to most paper meta games, so I'm interested in any changes you would make as well.
03-28-2018, 09:03 PM
Leshrac82

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valleysdai

Nice write up, I am interested in how the deck does, it is an interesting way of taking it.

What are your thoughts of it on paper? I know that the meta game is a lot different online to most paper meta games, so I'm interested in any changes you would make as well.

At some point i want to go over the different matchups and write up how i'm doing and maybe more - but i really need to have a bigger samplesize for that, it just doesn't make any sense to predict winrates from 10 matches or something like that. The only matchups where i have even close to a relevant samplesize are Grixis Delver and Storm - Grixis Delver is 60-65% and Storm is 45-50% so far.
Anyway, on Magic Online the deck is good enough to keep up - the overall winrate is somewhere around 55-65% for me, and everything from 51% up is good enough to go infinite on Magic Online. Obviously not a Tier 1 deck, but neither NicFit or 12-Post have been even remotely close to that for a while. I'm still hoping the winrate will settle on the higher end of this once i figure out an optimal build.

The deck in general can work in paper just fine, but some changes might be necessary. Storm is still the most played deck online (ANT and TES combined i faced more than even Grixis Delver, and that is far above any other deck), and at the moment probably not very relevant in paper. So the Thalias i added to the board could go for sure, don't know about other stuff - but if Storm isn't a relevant deck, the maindeck Teeg becomes questionable and some more sideboard slots could change.
Overall most matchups are very winnable, i'm confident my winrate in almost every matchup is at least 40% and i think even the glass cannon combo decks like Belcher are probably not much worse if at all. The only exception is Show&Tell with Omniscience, that matchup is just unwinnable - if that deck is a big part of your metagame i probably wouldn't play this deck.
03-28-2018, 10:46 PM
nimkee

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

I'm getting similar numbers to Leshrac percentage wise - except replace grixis delver with czech pile. I've only played to Grixis Delver once and lost 1-2 (in a previous report on this thread.

Also, from Monday:

I did a 3 rounder last night with my BG list. I replaced oracle with courser, and mirror with Ballista.

I went 2-0 against miracles, twice. Both game 1s were very long, grindy affairs. I started off game 1 with a t1 therapy, naming fow, and hit. I dropped a veteran explorer and flashed it back, and he brainstormed away the cards I saw (including a jace), and I dropped a sylvan library with those two lands. It took another 15 turns to clean it up as I just drew nothing. Game 3 he dropped a quick mentor and I dropped a choke in response and won.

2nd Miracles matchup was similar except for game 1 I had titan countered by a counterbalance twice. He actually cast all of his termini that game. I had exiled Entreat with tks earlier in the match and he hadn't realized it. He almost decked himself. I eventually emmied him out.

I lost a round to dragon stompy. I knew what he was playing, so I mulled to 6 because of no way to get basics. My 6 would have been okay for anothing but a turn 1 bloodmoon, which he had. Then he followed it up with a chalice on one and I just happened to have all my 1 drops. Game 2 was long, and went similar. I basically lost to a t1 chandra, then blood moon t2, and overall it was close. the turn before I could stablize he got me - I deeded away his bridges and moons with a titan on board but he had the one of Chaos Warp he sided in for my titan.
03-29-2018, 12:26 AM
caw_86

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

Its that time of the year again, getting ready for seattle
i hadnt picked up the deck since it lost top, so figuring out list has been fun and tough.

this is the list ive played 5 leagues with, 3-2, 5-0, 3-2, 2-3, and 0-5

4 primeval titan
1 ulamog, the ceaseless hunger
1 emrakul the aeons torn
1 trinket mage
1 worldbreaker

4 show and tell
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
1 divert
4 force of will
2 repeal
1 candelabra of tawnos
2 expedition map
1 pithing needle
3 crop rotation
1 moments peace

4 cloudpost
4 glimmerpost
2 vesuva
4 misty rainforest
4 tropical island
1 cavern of sould
1 karakas
1 eye of ugin
1 bojuka bog
1 nephalia academy
1 glacial chasm
1 island
1 forest

sb
4 blue elemental blast
2 thragtusk
1 divert
1 surgical extraction
1 reclamation sage
1 relic of progenitus
2 dismember
1 cavern of souls
1 engineered explosives
1 flusterstorm

most of what i have been facing on mtgo has been 4 color leovold, storm, grixis delver, mono red prisn, UW. and BR reanimator
i have been struggling with the delver matchs and i can really seem to figure it out, it seems like all my opponents just had it all.

mono red i prison has been descent, 3-1 in matches
reanimator and storm are sub par as expected but game ones are winnable.
force of will in the main i feel has improved all of these matchups, i mainly added them to the main to force through a show and tell against delver.

i tried out library as a top substitute, but it feels to slow, maybe could find a home in the board
i opted to go with 3 ponders and a divert in the top slots

my board is a mess as usual it seems
i think overall im happy with what i have in it, the only new thing i added was a cavern to to board to help find it in matches were i want 2.
after all the reanimator and storm games i feel like i want more surgicals/flusterstorms maybe.
the nephalia acadamey has proven useful, and is in the khalni garden spot. there just isnt enough LoTV floating around to need this land imo.

the last league i played in was the 5-0, which made me feel a lot better about playing this deck, but i did not face any delvers, 2 leovold decks, lands, burn, and BR reanimator. i
03-29-2018, 08:26 AM
Leshrac82

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

Quote:

Originally Posted by caw_86

most of what i have been facing on mtgo has been 4 color leovold, storm, grixis delver, mono red prisn, UW. and BR reanimator
i have been struggling with the delver matchs and i can really seem to figure it out, it seems like all my opponents just had it all.

Nice to see another 12-post deck go 5-0!

My deck is probably the strongest version against Delver, but it has some other drawbacks - mostly i'm not as strong against the other fair blue decks (after losing a bunch of matches in a row my winrate against Czech Pile is below 50%, and my winrate against Miracles is even worse). I'm trying to fix that, just have to figure out how (currently i'm trying Expedition Map and a 2nd Primeval Titan to see if that helps, going back a little bit to the traditional builds that have better matchups there - didn't help yesterday, but the cards felt good to have).

I'm losing to Delver if they have it all. The most important cards to beat them are my boardwipes, if i resolve at least 1 Toxic Deluge or Pernicious Deed i like my chances. Also important is the Dark Depths plan - either i win that way or i can force them to keep at least 1 Wasteland open all the time and win on the back of a Tracker or two. The Eldrazi game plan just doesn't work against Delver, i always board out my Eldrazi and Eye of Ugin against them - too slow and too clunky. That only works in my version with all those other threats, you probably can't do that in UG. That boardplan makes a huge difference - Game 1 against Delver i'm the underdog, i probably win just 40% of my preboard games against Delver, but postboard without those clunky cards things change a lot.

About the MTGO Metagame, i don't want to go over my winrates yet, but this is the metagame i have been facing, all the decks with at least 5 matches:

Delver (Grixis) 47
Storm (ANT) 33
Death&Taxes 28
Czech Pile 24
Lands 19
Mono-Red Prison 17
Miracles 16
Turbo-Depths 15
Elves 14
Storm (TES) 14
BR-Reanimator 14
Grixis Control 13
Delver (BUG) 13
Maverick 12
Delver (UR) 12
Eldrazi 10
Dredge 10
Aluren 9
Omnisneak 9
Burn 7
Sneak&Show 6
Infect 5
Delver (RUG) 5
BUG-DeathsShadow 5
03-30-2018, 07:27 AM
nimkee

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

That's an impressive amount of data collection!

Grixis Delver: I think damn near everything loses when they have it all - it plays out like unbeatable combo. I too, often feel like Grixis Delver has it all when I play them - t1 drs into daze, wasteland follow-up OR a pyromancer git probe CT then waste me. It's ugly either way. The last game I played they had 3 FoWs to defend 2 delvers and rode those to victory. Its a tough deck regardless. I had the best luck against it with C/g post but meh, what can you do?

I like my BG build against miracles - Therapy + TKS to clear their counters, and then warping wail for their miracles have won me multiple games against them. I keep a single explorer in but try to rely on my dryad arbor plus excavator to get value out of them. Sylvan Library has also been key. Emmy plus infinite turns has been my win con each time. I find myself searching up bojuka bog more and more often against that deck to keep snapcasters from being useful, and to turn azcanta off. My last 3 matches against miracles have been 2-0 (x2) and 2-1, albeit there were some close games.

What about Czech pile gives you the most trouble? I find that matchup to be decent, except when I get hymn t2, then snap hymned t3. That's more of a BUG delver thing tho. TKS does great work against them, as does warping wail. Leovold on my Sylvan library is one of the more frustrating things in the matchup.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leshrac82

Nice to see another 12-post deck go 5-0!

My deck is probably the strongest version against Delver, but it has some other drawbacks - mostly i'm not as strong against the other fair blue decks (after losing a bunch of matches in a row my winrate against Czech Pile is below 50%, and my winrate against Miracles is even worse). I'm trying to fix that, just have to figure out how (currently i'm trying Expedition Map and a 2nd Primeval Titan to see if that helps, going back a little bit to the traditional builds that have better matchups there - didn't help yesterday, but the cards felt good to have).

I'm losing to Delver if they have it all. The most important cards to beat them are my boardwipes, if i resolve at least 1 Toxic Deluge or Pernicious Deed i like my chances. Also important is the Dark Depths plan - either i win that way or i can force them to keep at least 1 Wasteland open all the time and win on the back of a Tracker or two. The Eldrazi game plan just doesn't work against Delver, i always board out my Eldrazi and Eye of Ugin against them - too slow and too clunky. That only works in my version with all those other threats, you probably can't do that in UG. That boardplan makes a huge difference - Game 1 against Delver i'm the underdog, i probably win just 40% of my preboard games against Delver, but postboard without those clunky cards things change a lot.

About the MTGO Metagame, i don't want to go over my winrates yet, but this is the metagame i have been facing, all the decks with at least 5 matches:

Delver (Grixis) 47
Storm (ANT) 33
Death&Taxes 28
Czech Pile 24
Lands 19
Mono-Red Prison 17
Miracles 16
Turbo-Depths 15
Elves 14
Storm (TES) 14
BR-Reanimator 14
Grixis Control 13
Delver (BUG) 13
Maverick 12
Delver (UR) 12
Eldrazi 10
Dredge 10
Aluren 9
Omnisneak 9
Burn 7
Sneak&Show 6
Infect 5
Delver (RUG) 5
BUG-DeathsShadow 5
03-30-2018, 08:32 AM
Leshrac82

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

Quote:

Originally Posted by nimkee

What about Czech pile gives you the most trouble? I find that matchup to be decent, except when I get hymn t2, then snap hymned t3. That's more of a BUG delver thing tho. TKS does great work against them, as does warping wail. Leovold on my Sylvan library is one of the more frustrating things in the matchup.

Exactly that is giving me the most trouble, i get hymned on t2 way too often, especially in postboard games, and most of the time they have another Hymn or a snapcaster as a follow up. With no cards in hand from turn 3 on this deck is hard to beat, whatever i topdeck is either useless or they can deal with it. And they keep discarding my stuff, later in the game with K-Command chained with Snapcasters so i don't even really get a drawstep.
The matchup isn't unwinnable, but overall that happens often enough to turn it into a bad matchup.

Against Miracles, they just keep countering all my stuff, usually have Jace on turn 4, postboard often have Back to Basics (that alone is beatable, but not combined with Jace), sometimes have an early Mentor (which is still more beatable than Jace and B2B). I lost 2 games in a row against Miracles after casting Emrakul, didn't have Eye or Karakas and they had a Terminus set up on top with Brainstorm in hand. Also got my Eye of Ugin milled with Predict after they used Portent on me multiple times. Azcanta is definitely a problem too, if they don't have B2B they use that for too much cardadvantage - between that and Jace they often draw 3 cards a turn, enough to find answers for everything.
There was definitely some bad luck involved in my losses against Miracles, more than half the time i was either manascrewed or flooded, but even adjusting for that i have my doubts this matchup is as good as it is supposed to be.

I was playing Warping Wail last year and in the beginning of this year, but i found it underwhelming especially in these matchups. I rarely have mana up to counter a Hymn that early in the game (i played with Wail for a long time and i don't think i ever countered a Hymn with it), countering a Miracle doesn't work that often either. And overall it kinda requires a 4th color, i don't always have colorless mana in the early game. It's still a card on my radar, but the last time i tried it, it didn't really work out.

I 5-0ed a League again yesterday, with a 2nd Primeval Titan in the maindeck (but no Expedition Maps, tried them and wasn't convinced) and a lot of discard in the board (4x Thoughtseize, 2x Collective Brutality). Played Death&Taxes (2-0), Aggro-Loam (2-1), Czech Pile (2-0), BR-Reanimator (2-1), Sneak&Show (2-0).
Other cards i tried in the sideboard for a few Leagues:
Carpet of Flowers: Really bad against Leovold, even without that problem definitely not what i want overall.
Pulse of Murasa: Really bad against Deathrite Shaman - when that gets banned it might be worth a try again, but not before that.
Sorcerous Spyglass: Very good in some matchups that are already very good for me, not relevant enough against blue decks (too slow against Delver to shut down their Wastelands before they waste you at least once, and Czech Pile and Miracles have a ton of anwers).
Thalia: Very good against Storm, sadly not that helpful against most other combo decks (and kinda a nombo with Explorer). I think i prefer more discard instead.
03-31-2018, 12:44 AM
nimkee

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

I've had a lot of luck with wail, but that is partially because of colorless being my 3rd color. All of the things you've described have been made a lot easier with TKS. I still never know to stick him in or prime time vs omnitell these days.

The trade off I guess is that you get to win more combo games with teeg pre-board, and white. I face more non-combo matchups locally so I've went with that. Storm is played a lot online, no? Teeg, Knight, and Canonist are your white cards at the moment. I guess I'm shaving off percentage points vs combo for points in other areas. TKS performed so well for me I went up to 4.

Turn 1 Mox Diamond is such a great play in this deck. Would you ever consider going up to 3? I *never* want two...so I've held off up until this point.

The game where I T1 Mox Diamond into CT, into Vet, into sylvan library felt amazing. I didn't get to follow it up with a T2 TKS unfortunately, but felt good nonetheless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leshrac82

Exactly that is giving me the most trouble, i get hymned on t2 way too often, especially in postboard games, and most of the time they have another Hymn or a snapcaster as a follow up. With no cards in hand from turn 3 on this deck is hard to beat, whatever i topdeck is either useless or they can deal with it. And they keep discarding my stuff, later in the game with K-Command chained with Snapcasters so i don't even really get a drawstep.
The matchup isn't unwinnable, but overall that happens often enough to turn it into a bad matchup.

Against Miracles, they just keep countering all my stuff, usually have Jace on turn 4, postboard often have Back to Basics (that alone is beatable, but not combined with Jace), sometimes have an early Mentor (which is still more beatable than Jace and B2B). I lost 2 games in a row against Miracles after casting Emrakul, didn't have Eye or Karakas and they had a Terminus set up on top with Brainstorm in hand. Also got my Eye of Ugin milled with Predict after they used Portent on me multiple times. Azcanta is definitely a problem too, if they don't have B2B they use that for too much cardadvantage - between that and Jace they often draw 3 cards a turn, enough to find answers for everything.
There was definitely some bad luck involved in my losses against Miracles, more than half the time i was either manascrewed or flooded, but even adjusting for that i have my doubts this matchup is as good as it is supposed to be.

I was playing Warping Wail last year and in the beginning of this year, but i found it underwhelming especially in these matchups. I rarely have mana up to counter a Hymn that early in the game (i played with Wail for a long time and i don't think i ever countered a Hymn with it), countering a Miracle doesn't work that often either. And overall it kinda requires a 4th color, i don't always have colorless mana in the early game. It's still a card on my radar, but the last time i tried it, it didn't really work out.

I 5-0ed a League again yesterday, with a 2nd Primeval Titan in the maindeck (but no Expedition Maps, tried them and wasn't convinced) and a lot of discard in the board (4x Thoughtseize, 2x Collective Brutality). Played Death&Taxes (2-0), Aggro-Loam (2-1), Czech Pile (2-0), BR-Reanimator (2-1), Sneak&Show (2-0).
Other cards i tried in the sideboard for a few Leagues:
Carpet of Flowers: Really bad against Leovold, even without that problem definitely not what i want overall.
Pulse of Murasa: Really bad against Deathrite Shaman - when that gets banned it might be worth a try again, but not before that.
Sorcerous Spyglass: Very good in some matchups that are already very good for me, not relevant enough against blue decks (too slow against Delver to shut down their Wastelands before they waste you at least once, and Czech Pile and Miracles have a ton of anwers).
Thalia: Very good against Storm, sadly not that helpful against most other combo decks (and kinda a nombo with Explorer). I think i prefer more discard instead.
03-31-2018, 01:10 AM
nimkee

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

I just watched the video - sweet game and congrats!

Naming bolt made perfect sense - its what I would have named in that situation as well. Name what you fear - removal for your only creature on board. Protect it so it protects your threats from getting forced. Having enough sac targets for the Kotr does seem precarious at times, though I suppose you don't need too many if you are bopping them with a 20/20.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leshrac82

Last night i played a match that was streamed by jarvisyu from the other side: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/243240739 (match starts around 2:49).

I watched the video (and not the stream like at least some of his viewers were suggesting), here is what was happening from my side:
Game 1:
I paused against the DRS turn 1: I was expecting him to play Lands because he is known for that, i kept a hand that could play a T3 5/5 Knight out of just basics and that's usually good enough against Lands. Also i was planning to play Cabal Therapy on turn 1, and that plan wasn't really working any more now.
On turn 3, i wanted to play therapy and flash it back to clear out the way for my Knight next turn. I played Teeg first to be able to flash it back in any case. After that resolved, and the Therapy resolved too, Lightning Bolt was the most logical choice to name: He would have used Daze if he had it (and i can play the Knight around 1 Daze). If he has FoW, he can't play it with Teeg in play, and without Bolt he can't get Teeg of the battlefield. Also, a Bolt could very likely kill the Knight with DRS on the table. Then i made a mistake: I abandoned my plan to flash back the Therapy since his FoW was shut of by Teeg anyway, but since he had Wasteland in hand, my Knight wasn't able to bring the fast Marit Lage kill i was planning (by fetching just basics i didn't even give him the chance to use it), so i probably needed more action after the Knight - i should have flashbacked Therapy here mostly to get rid of the Teeg and turn on my GSZs again.
I get punished for that mistake immediately by drawing 2x GSZ in a row.
Now i needed to get his Wasteland of the table to stick a Marit Lage, the best way to do that was to fetch Cloudposts and threaten Eldrazi. When i fetched the Glimmerpost and copied Cloudpost with Stage, this was my thought process: I needed to get life not to die next turn. If he didn't waste here, i was probably screwed (or at least i had fewer outs), but since nobody plays a second Stage like me, this play was most likely inducing him to waste the Stage. If he does that, i still need to draw something, but i had some outs that would at least beat him if he doesn't draw anything (i'm counting: 2x Toxic Deluge, 2x Pernicious Deed, 2x Crop Rotation, 1x Stage, 1x Depths, 1x Ballista, 1x Primeval Titan, 1x Ulamog, 2x Glimmerpost, 1x Eye of Ugin, 2x Lingering Souls would ge me more time and even if i don't draw anything i can fetch another Glimmerpost for a redraw with probably fewer outs). If he wastes the copied Cloudpost instead, i could just get Marit Lage.
Since i draw my second Stage for the turn, going for Marit Lage was clearly the best play - he needed to draw 2 Bolts (or Bolt + TNN) to win against that.
Game 2:
To keep that hand was a gamble, but i think it was correct: I had enough land, i had a Toxic Deluge and i had a black source to go with it. I really only needed to find a green source in my first 4 drawsteps, including Mox Diamond. And a white source would make Lingering Souls possible, that would probably buy me some time too.
My draws this game were pretty good and from there the hand played itself. If he didn't Bolt me and instead held it for my Tracker, he would have lost that to the Cabal Therapy - i was blind naming Bolt again, since that was again the most dangerous card (and i was kinda expecting there to be another Bolt too because he knew about the Tracker).
(Note: The GSZ would have just gotten another Tracker in this spot most likely - i was thinking about Courser as the only other option, after drawing the Therapy it would have been Tracker for sure. Didn't have enough fodder for Knight for that to be good enough, didn't have enough green mana for Scooze to be good enough, and didn't want to wait for enough mana for Primeval Titan.)

About possible changes to the deck: I'm currently playing the Lingering Souls main again over Abrupt Decay (it just keeps overperforming, while all the spot removal spells underperformed - i really don't like spot removal that much in this deck, i'm playing so many lands, my spells need to be better than just 1-for-1s that are dead cards some of the time), i got rid of the Chokes in the sideboard (useless against Storm, and probably not what i want against Delver either - Delver usually beats me with very aggressive starts, i almost always win the long game, and Choke doesn't help against that. that just leaves me with other fair blue decks, i didn't get to test it against those, but i don't think it's worth it for just those matchups), i'm trying out Sorcerous Spyglass in the board (with mixed results so far - it won me a few games on the spot and it was pretty useless some other times).
And i'm also playing a Vesuva again and removed the 3rd Glimmerpost for that, mostly to have access to a 2nd Bojuka Bog when i need it (already won me some games).
03-31-2018, 08:00 AM
Leshrac82

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

Quote:

Originally Posted by nimkee

I've had a lot of luck with wail, but that is partially because of colorless being my 3rd color. All of the things you've described have been made a lot easier with TKS. I still never know to stick him in or prime time vs omnitell these days.

The trade off I guess is that you get to win more combo games with teeg pre-board, and white. I face more non-combo matchups locally so I've went with that. Storm is played a lot online, no? Teeg, Knight, and Canonist are your white cards at the moment. I guess I'm shaving off percentage points vs combo for points in other areas. TKS performed so well for me I went up to 4.

Turn 1 Mox Diamond is such a great play in this deck. Would you ever consider going up to 3? I *never* want two...so I've held off up until this point.

The game where I T1 Mox Diamond into CT, into Vet, into sylvan library felt amazing. I didn't get to follow it up with a T2 TKS unfortunately, but felt good nonetheless.

Maybe TKS works better in your list - i can't really add more colorless mana to the deck, and my white cards are too important to drop the color. You watched that game 1 against jarvisyu - even though he had a Wasteland and left that open for a long time, the Knight alone eventually got there. That happens a lot, i win almost every game where i untap with Knight, he is only really bad in the matchups where that's unlikely to happen (so Miracles and Czech Pile, you can see the pattern). And Teeg is stealing a decent number of preboard games against Storm, without him that matchup would be much worse (and without any hatebears even postboard, it would be really bad and maybe below 20% instead of close to 50%). I think in the online metagame, you just have to have a good plan for Storm, and that will probably never change - everybody talks about how unplayable Storm is these days and it's still pretty much the most played deck on Magic Online. Can't give up on that matchup to have better matchups against Miracles and Czech Pile.

I played 3 Mox Diamonds for a long time (on xmage, changed that shortly before i switched to Magic Online). Generally i think more Mox Diamonds make the combo matchups better and hurt the fair matchups. With my deck, i feel i'm in the right position against combo now and have problems especially with the fair blue decks, so i don't really want to play more. Your deck is different, so maybe 3 Mox Diamonds are better in your list.
04-02-2018, 08:50 AM
FatalErr

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leshrac82

At some point i want to go over the different matchups and write up how i'm doing and maybe more - but i really need to have a bigger samplesize for that, it just doesn't make any sense to predict winrates from 10 matches or something like that.

Please do, the sideboard guide and overall strategy before/after sideboarding against the most common decks would be very helpful!

I was trying your deck in paper a few months ago in our small local tournaments and it was very fun for both me and my opponents, although I did find that it requires sharp plays and planning turns ahead, knowing what deck can present us with (which is hard). My hands don't often "play out by themselves" as you sometimes write - probably because of my lack of experience with such decks (I usually play more straightforward 2-piece combo/controls in Legacy/Modern). Your old notes on sideboarding were pretty much a revelation when I found them, that swapping a huge chunks of the deck out, including a number of lands - your approach/playstyle is not very intuitive but seems logical, so I would like to know more about exact sideboarding and typical lines.

Having seen the newest changes to the deck in 5-0 league lists (Ballistas, more fetches and removal maindeck) makes me want to try the deck again - seems like they might help with the always present here Delver matchup, which was always giving me troubles, especially with Probe into Therapy my Mox/GSZ openings, leaving me without colored mana :(.

I've also noticed that when opponents became more familiar with this deck after playing/observing it a couple of times, they played a lot better against it (including blind Therapies), which seem like another difference between playing it online and in paper.
04-02-2018, 12:33 PM
Leshrac82

Re: [Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatalErr

Please do, the sideboard guide and overall strategy before/after sideboarding against the most common decks would be very helpful!

I was trying your deck in paper a few months ago in our small local tournaments and it was very fun for both me and my opponents, although I did find that it requires sharp plays and planning turns ahead, knowing what deck can present us with (which is hard). My hands don't often "play out by themselves" as you sometimes write - probably because of my lack of experience with such decks (I usually play more straightforward 2-piece combo/controls in Legacy/Modern). Your old notes on sideboarding were pretty much a revelation when I found them, that swapping a huge chunks of the deck out, including a number of lands - your approach/playstyle is not very intuitive but seems logical, so I would like to know more about exact sideboarding and typical lines.

Having seen the newest changes to the deck in 5-0 league lists (Ballistas, more fetches and removal maindeck) makes me want to try the deck again - seems like they might help with the always present here Delver matchup, which was always giving me troubles, especially with Probe into Therapy my Mox/GSZ openings, leaving me without colored mana :(.

I've also noticed that when opponents became more familiar with this deck after playing/observing it a couple of times, they played a lot better against it (including blind Therapies), which seem like another difference between playing it online and in paper.

Just for Delver, this is my current approach:
Sideboarding: -1 Emrakul, -1 Ulamog, -1 Gaddock Teeg, -1 Eye of Ugin. Maybe -2 Crop Rotation if i have more sideboard cards (i'm still not sure if i want Crop Rotation postboard or not), and when i'm playing Titania it's another possible cut.
That means i need at least 4 good cards against Delver in the sideboard, possibly up to 6 but not more.
Those good sideboard cards could be:
Abrupt Decay (good against especially Miracles too, also good against Mono-Red Prison but probably not needed, ok against most fair decks)
Collective Brutality (decent against many decks including most combo decks)
Swords to Plowshares (best spot removal against Delver, decent against Reanimator and Turbo-Depths, decent against fair aggressive decks but not against controlling decks like Miracles or Czech Pile)
Lingering Souls (good against pretty much every fair deck, the only real argument against it is the mana requirement - sometimes it's stuck in your hand)
Choke (probably very good against Miracles and Czech Pile, still haven't figured out how good it actually is against Delver)
more Boardwipes (Toxic Deluge, Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives - which i have played on xmage for a long time, the reason i'm not at least trying it on Magic Online is that it's too expensive for a card i'm not even that sure about)

How to play, at least against Grixis Delver:
You often need one boardwipe to resolve, getting their FoWs out of their hands to do that helps a lot - unless another card is more problematic for my current plan it's usually the card to name with a blind Therapy. The Eldrazi plan is too slow against Delver. Preboard if it comes to it i take it, resolving an Eldrazi wins almost every time, but in general you can't expect to have that much mana against their fast clock and often multiple Wastelands. And postboard it's even worse because they prioritize Wastelands, making it even harder to ramp. If they don't know your plan postboard, that helps a lot, because they are more likely to waste your Cloudposts (and i really don't care that much about my Cloudposts postboard).
Your best threat against Delver is Knight of the Reliquary, ideally you resolve that when it's big enough to survive a Bolt. This can threaten the Dark Depths combo, and it often wins me games that way. Getting to Dark Dephts with Crop Rotation is harder because of their counterspells, but backed up by discard it works too (and sometimes you have to risk it). If they expect the combo, they will often leave one Wasteland open all game. Technically you can play around that with your 2nd Stage (and this is one reason i'm playing 2 Stages), but often it's just better to try to win a fair game - if you can get a Tracker out of Bolt range things are looking good, you just have to be careful not to get burned out. Courser is pretty good against Delver too, often more valuable than a Tracker. Ballista is usually just spot removal against Delver - if i can trade it with a Delver, i do it every time.

Currently i have 3 flex slots in the maindeck (the 2nd Primeval Titan, the 4th boardwipe and in my current list Titania) and 6 flex slots in the sideboard (4 of these sideboard slots are the anti-Delver slots, the other 2 are completely open and i'm trying different things). Playing more spot removal in those slots, and maybe even more sweepers, can do some work against Delver. I haven't won a lot against Delver recently, maybe cutting my maindeck spot removal had something to do with that. In fact i lost my last 10 matches against Grixis Delver - but almost directly before that i was 14-1 over 15 matches in a row, the variance is just extremely high. This is why i don't really want to post winrates for matchups - if i can go 14-1 into 0-10, how relevant are my winrates for matchups with 10-20 matches?

Knowing this deck makes it easier to play against it for sure, i'm getting more and more opponents who have seen my lists since they got posted. But the same is true the other way around, if i know what i'm playing against that heavily influences my strategy game 1. Since decklists get posted, that is very relevant online too.

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