Yes, I live in MA. so I will be at the SCG worcester main event.Quote:
Originally Posted by Faiiith
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Yes, I live in MA. so I will be at the SCG worcester main event.Quote:
Originally Posted by Faiiith
Some random thoughts, mostly concerning Eldritch Evolution: It allows for some pretty cool toolboxing where we get both an answer and a body.
For instance, Angel of Finality could become a thing. Whipe away a graveyard and start smashing face. All we really need to add is Eldrazi Displacer (or Temur Sabertooth as semi-replacement).
Bane of Progress could come in to wreck artifact/enchantment based decks, Magister of Worth to wreck big creature boards. In the MB these cards probably should be Reclamation Sage/Acidic Slime (probably not the Slime, but I'm spitballing here now anyways) and Bone Shredder/Shriekmaw.
Now, how to deal with Planeswalkers..? Sylvan Primordial and Angel of Despair seem like the cheapest way to do this with ETB-triggers. Too mana intensive for me though. Maybe w/ GSZ -> Empath -> Tasigur/Gurmag Angler.
Heliod, God of the Sun could be a tutor target to deal with Miracles. It isn't hit by anything they can throw at you (unless they run Council's Judgment, but in that case what can you do..?) and can create 1 token/turn for a 5 turn or so clock that possibly answers Jace too.
Vs. fast combo the card isn't going to help us though, since it's both too slow and they use Chain of Vapor (and friends) as an answer. There just aren't any cards that have both Shroud/Hexproof and are relevent vs. those decks.
Concluding: Eldritch Evolution might just be what we need to shore up the Miracles & Eldrazi MU and while further cementing our position vs. anyFair.dec. If that's the case, now we just have to overcome anyCombo.dec. I've got a lot of testing to do.
Though I have been ghosting this site for a while, reading through a lot of this Primer in particular (as I have became a big fan of Nic Fit as my growth and taste in Legacy continues to evolve), this is my first post and I have a couple of questions to ask and in need of a bit of advise from those with a stronger expertise in this deck. I run a Junk version of the deck and enjoy it immensely. I have an Invitational Qualifier coming up this weekend and there are a few things that I am hesitant on. The IQ I am going to, from what others have said about this shop's previous Legacy IQ, was a smaller event that had zero Show and Tell variants as well as zero ANT players present. That is good news for a Nic Fit player; however, you can never be too prepared, right?
Here's the list as I have it now, a few changes that I am considering to follow.
___________________
Creatures (15):
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Siege Rhino
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
Sorcery (11):
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Painful Truth's
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Instants (5):
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
Enchantments (3):
3 Pernicious Deed
Artifacts (3):
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Planeswalkers (1):
Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Lands (22):
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
- - - - -
Sideboard (15):
3 Thoughtseize
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Rest in Peace
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Choke
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Garruk Relentless
___________________
Some changes that I have been thinking of making to the deck is taking Siege Rhino down to 3 to put room in for a second Tireless Tracker. I really enjoy 4 Rhinos in the deck, but is it safe to cut one to add another Tireless Tracker? Both are incredible at what they do, one getting out of control and netting awesome attrition value while the other is simply an awesome body with a solid effect to back it up.
Sorin, Grim Nemesis is a pretty cool card in the deck, but would I be better off moving either the Garruk Relentless or Elspeth, Knight-Errant in the SB to the main and simply taking Sorin out of the picture? This move frees up an extra slot in the 15 to allow more options. How powerful has those that played Sorin found him to be in their matches outside of Miracles?
Speaking of the sideboard, something I have considered is moving to the Slaughter Games package and taking one of the Phyrexian Tower's out for a Taiga. I know that Slaughter Games helps out quite a bit against the Show and Tell decks and Storm matches, but what are some other really good matches to bring the card in against? If I go the Slaughter package in the side, I don't want it to be simply dead if there are zero Show and Tell or ANT players at the IQ again (though better safe and sorry, right?)...
Overall, it's just a bit of fine tuning to different parts of the deck. Any suggestions that could be offered, like if I am missing a huge flaw in the design, would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
@Jembera: Seems like a fine list. You could also trade in Maelstrom Pulse or Thragtusk for a second Tracker, whatever tickles your fancy.
Big Sorin is a wonderful card. The times I've had it hit the field, it turned into a roughly 3 card difference before it hit the dirt (either killing opposing creatures or getting me extra cards).
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
THAT'S how you make a first post in a thread. Welcome Jembera!
Seems like Meren isn't so hot in your list, not many cheap creatures that will die, no abor SFM or STE and already 4 rhinos. It's a card advantage card, I'd cut her for your second tracker easy.
Regarding Sorin... Your deck already had lots of top end, I'd probably cut it for something cheaper too.
@Jain: Lol! You're right about Meren in his list. Mayhaps cut Sorin, Meren and Maelstrom Pulse/Thragtusk to go up to 4 Tracker..? CA & Rhinos FTW!
Quote:
Originally Posted by JemberaMakoa
No SnT or ANT is nice. Are there other combo decks, like Belcher, TinFins, or Reanimator? Those could be pretty bad news for you.
Personally I've never seen the appeal of 4-Rhino. If you're against a lot of fair decks it is indeed fabulous, though. If you're expecting a lot of Delver variants, Burn, DnT and Miracles, though, I'd be tempted to run 2-3 Thragtusks instead. Speeding up your clock is less relevant because of the lack of fast combo, and being a great card against Miracles rather than an awful one helps a whole lot.
IMO If you're running multiple Tireless Trackers (which you should be, especially in that meta) you don't need Painful Truths. Particularly if you're expecting more decks that threaten your life total. I'd go down to 1 or 0, with 1-2 Tireless Trackers.
You want more Surgical Extractions in the side, in my personal opinion. It's great against the combo decks that otherwise wreck you (give you some amount of game against Reanimator, too) and is also good against Miracles - if you can take their Terminus, Thrags and Rhinos are suddenly a really big problem.
If you're not expecting much Storm, I'd swap the Ethersworn Canonist out of the side. Extraction is a fine replacement (works against Storm anyway, after all). I'd also drop the RIP for the same again, since there's no point hosing your own graveyard if you don't have to. RIP is a lot worse now anyway since a lot of the combo decks run Abrupt Decays, and isn't as good against some lists like Miracles.
Personally if I was gonna run a PW maindeck I'd be tempted to go for Elspeth, Sun's Champion before Sorin, since she's better against Eldrazi and almost as good against Miracles while stabilising absurdly well against creature decks. I'd be tempted to swap the Sorin for an Elspeth SC and switch the Elspeth KE in the sideboard for a Sorin LoI - who is, incidentally, great in combination with Elspeth SC.
Meren could be a cut as well, by the way. You aren't running Dryad Arbor, which she is good with. You already have a ton of 4-drops with all your Rhinos, and she doesn't want to get Swords-ed and Karakas-ed very much, so if you're expecting a lot of DnT and Miracles she won't do much. You don't have a Vindicate to remove a Karakas so there isn't really much you can do about it.
Hello friends. Like Jembera, I've been lurking in this thread for a while (about 6 months) and thought it was time I shared my list. I certainly don't claim to be an expert so I would greatly appreciate any comments or criticism you have.
Finding out that Birthing Pod was viable in Legacy, I started building the BUG Pod version of Nic Fit listed in the primer and this is the list I'm currently running:
-~- BUG Pod Fit -~-
Land (21):
1 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Phyrexian Tower
Creature (23):
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Thragtusk
1 Shriekmaw
1 Grave Titan
Spells (16):
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
2 Birthing Pod
3 Green Sun's Zenith
Sideboard (15):
1 Minister of Pain
1 Notion Thief
1 Sower of Temptation
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Dread of Night
2 Invasive Surgery
4 Force of Will
Creature curve:
1-drops: 5 xxxxx
2-drops: 6 xxxxxx
3-drops: 5 xxxxx
4-drops: 3 xxx
5-drops: 2 xx
6-drops: 1 x
My local Legacy scene (Melbourne, Australia) only got going late last year thanks to the help of Sean Brown who now writes for MTGGoldfish. Being relatively new, the meta is about 10-15% DnT right now and so I'm playing 2 Dread of Night in the board. Aside from that the meta is rather diverse but notably almost no one plays Miracles or Eldrazi.
Are there are any obvious deck building mistakes anyone can see? For instance,
- is three 4-drops too few for a pod variant? I've certainly felt constrained at this slot in the pod chain before.
- does the deck need more ways to consistently hit turn 2 pod?
- should Grave Titan be switched for a blue 6-drop to maximize the consistency of the Force of Will side board plan? I've tried Consecrated Sphinx but it just wasn't as game ending when podded into.
- is Recurring Nightmare too cute and should be replaced by Birthing Pod #3?
- is Invasive Surgery even good?
- is 19 blue cards after side boarding for Force of Will enough?
Any recommendations about the creature package or the sideboard cards you have I'd be happy to try out.
Now this list certainly wasn't what I started with 6 months ago. After picking up my playset of Veteran Explorers, the very first thing I did was add a bunch of janky combos to the deck. Eventually I settled on an OmniRector Pod list similar to the BUG list above but with a light splash for white. Here's the list in all its terrible glory:
-~- OmniRector Pod -~-
Lands (21):
1 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Savannah
1 Phyrexian Tower
Creature (24):
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Academy Rector
1 Thragtusk
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1 Shriekmaw
1 Grave Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Spells (16):
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Birthing Pod
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Omniscience
Sideboard (15):
1 Minister of Pain
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Notion Thief
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Dread of Night
2 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
2 Invasive Surgery
This deck plays out very similar to the straight BUG list above but with less consistency and a combo kill. That combo kill being
1. Pod into Academy Rector.
2. Pod Academy Rector into Sidisi, Undead Vizier.
3. Put Omniscience into play with Rector's death trigger.
4a. If you suspect opponent has counter magic then fetch Emrakul, the Aeons Torn with Sidisi's exploit trigger. Cast Emrakul, take an extra turn and probably win.
4b. If the opponent doesn't have counter magic then fetch Recurring Nightmare with Sidisi's exploit trigger. Presumably there is a Baleful Strix on the board or in the graveyard at this point and with any other creature on the board Nightmare + Omniscience lets you draw your deck finding Thragtusk to gain infinite life and make infinite 3/3s or just be boring and end the game with Murderous Redcap.
Drawing Sidisi, Omniscience or Emrakul is so bad that playing 4 Brainstorm here is a necessity, so a straight Junk version is not really possible. Omniscience is a particularly terrible draw, but it is possible to hardcast if it comes to that. I'm not saying this deck is good, but it's certainly fun.
Also, I thought I might include some of my initial thoughts on Eldritch Evolution. Between Pod and Evolution the pod variants might be interested in death triggers almost as much as ETB triggers. Some low CMC cards that come to mind:
Liliana, Heretical Healer, Voice of Resurgence, Hallowed Spiritkeeper, Matter Reshaper, Solemn Simulacrum, Mogg War Marshal.
Welcome !Quote:
Originally Posted by Gideonartra
Thanks for your wonderful post.
I have played BUG Pod until I switched to Junk Pod.
Here are some food for thoughts:
- The Meren + Shriekmaw package can be dropped altogether. It is sometimes insane but eventually rather cute and slow.
- As you pointed out, BUG tends to struggle against D&T (mainly because of Mirran + revoker on deed), why not trying a 1-of Doomwake Giant MD. With Minister of Pain in the side, you double up your hate vs swarm decks.
- I would play Sower MD. It is better than Master of the Wild Hunt.
- I would entirely cut MotWH. The card itself is great but rather so-so in a POD shell as it doesn't provide any EtB trigger.
- GSZ is not at its best in a blue shell. I'll try to cut 2 of them and just keep 1. You could replace them with 1/2 Ponder & 0/1 diabolic intent.
- I would also play another DRS and another POD. The blue shell is all about ramping or finding POD as fast as possible. So in a way, yes I will increase my chance to get a T2/T3 POD.
- I would avoid playing Vendilion MD. I do love the card as well but "UU" really is evil (in a deck that usually wants a UBG as its first 3 lands).
- Keep Grave Titan MD. That's the ALL STAR creature.
- With only 1 GSZ and no more Meren, I would also drop the Arbor for the 3rd DRS.
- I'm not so sure about Tracker in a Pod shell. Trinket Mage with a small tuto package (EE, SDT for MD and CoTV + Pithing for SB) might be an overall better choice.
- Concerning your SB, I'll definitely play some Thoughtseize / Riptide Pilferer (for the blue count) / Chalice with the Trinket idea. I'll also add the Vendilion and another GLE (Glen Elendra is such a beast...). Invasive is fine. Minister of Pain or Golgary Charm also is. Just add a couple of Surgical Extraction and call it a day !
Edit: Unfortunately there is no outstanding "Pod" creature in BUG @ CMC 4. The best one might still be "Murderous Redcap" (Obviously GLE is also great but not for the same reasons).
Edit 2: @ Navsi : I'm afraid but Gobelin is an awfully bad MU for Nic Fit. Between 35 to 40 %, maximum. They make too much profit of our dying explorer and you advance too much their gameplan that you usually die in one blow (usually the same turn they reveal 3 or 4 goblins on Ringleader).
I don't know if this is the deck for it, but Dark Salvation looks very legit to me and I'm almost certainly going to play it somewhere. It's probably at it's best in Legacy which has the smallest creatures on average.
http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/...658360616.jpeg
At X=1 it's a 3 mana 2 for 1, at X=2 it's a 5 mana 3 for 1, and at X=3 it's a 7 mana 4 for 1. We actually have the ramp to make it strong too, plus it's splashable, and I like that it's a great hit on Bob. The only real downside is that we don't run any other Zombies to let it cheaply kill a flipped Delver or something.
@Ralf: Thanks for all the advice. I really do appreciate it. Why did you choose to switch to Junk over BUG? Baleful Strix is so good, I couldn't imagine playing pod without it.
I like playing Shriekmaw as a terror effect which can also be podded into. The combination with Meren feels great once it gets going, but you're right; it is very slow. I haven't seen many pod lists playing Bone Shredder, what are your thoughts about it?
Master of the Wild Hunt and Tracker were in there to make GSZ have some more late game targets, but I'll try cutting them if the deck is focused more on pod. Truth be told, I don't think I podded into Tracker once.
With the changes you recommended here is the list I'm going to try tonight at our weekly Legacy event:
Lands (21):
1 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Phyrexian Tower
Creatures (22):
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Thragtusk
1 Doomwake Giant
1 Grave Titan
Spells (17):
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
4 Birthing Pod
1 Green Sun's Zenith
Sideboard (15):
1 Minister of Pain
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Dread of Night
2 Riptide Pilferer
4 Force of Will
I haven't added the Trinket Mage package to this list. It's certainly something I want to try but one step at a time.
That is my preferred build right now. I'm on what we were calling SE Fit. I don't think anyone else who posts in the thread plays it but I found it to work well. The only thing I haven't really liked is Siege Rhino, but after trying both PW's and SFM's I've come around to the fact that it's probably a necessary evil. I think I like this swap, my swap came from another card but I don't remember off hand which it was. I'm a big fan of having multiple Trackers.Quote:
Originally Posted by JemberaMakoa
If I remember correctly it was originally adopted for Miracles as an answer to JTMS.Quote:
Speaking of the sideboard, something I have considered is moving to the Slaughter Games package and taking one of the Phyrexian Tower's out for a Taiga. I know that Slaughter Games helps out quite a bit against the Show and Tell decks and Storm matches, but what are some other really good matches to bring the card in against?
I was on BUG Pod for quite awhile but I eventually adopted Rhinos. I played BUG Pod for about a year, it's a very popular variant for people new to the deck (did it myself) but I think it lacks the raw power we need. It's just a bit too durdly and I found the clock to be a real issue against decks like Miracles and Shardless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gideonartra
What I learned from the deck is that the creature slots are really tight. Legacy as a format carries a pretty heavy amount of overhead in terms of spells you need. You have to have interaction against the combo decks or just to stop someone from going over the top of you. That usually takes the form of 4 Therapy, 4 GSZ, and 12 other interaction spells. On top of that you have the land count, we all seem to have settled on 22. I'm skeptical that it's the right number but it's what people go with for now (in fact I run 4 GSZ+Arbor, and some DRS specifically because it's like having 28 mana sources in the deck... a number I am much more comfortable with). Because of the 20 spells plus 22 land, I've found that 19 creatures is the highest a Pod deck can reasonably have.
With respect to your curve that means you're probably looking at something like
1 - 6
2 - 3
3 - 4
4 - 3
5 - 2
6 - 1
What you'll notice is this means few 2's even though Baleful Strix is the biggest draw to blue. I'm also of the opinion that jumping places on the curve is the best thing you can do with Pod. For example, I like Pod into Trinket Mage into Hangarback Walker into DRS + Tokens. Off the top of my head I don't remember all the pod chains but you could check my posting history to find them.
For your questions:
I think you have an appropriate number of fours, you're just running into the slot problem that the variant has.
If you want to T2 Pod more often I would put a Dryad Arbor into the manabase. The problem though is that Arbor gets exponentially better with 4 GSZ, but that comes at the expense of more slots which makes your Pods worse.
If you want a blue finisher look into Frost Titan, that's what I ran as my 6. If you've never tried it before, you may be surprised to learn that most of the format just can't handle a Frost Titan. His taxing effect combined with tapping down lands/blockers lets him get through most boards and stops most decks from being able to kill him. Vet+him may seem a bit contradictory but it works. My strongest hands were actually the ones where I could just legit cast a Frost Titan on turn 3.
As far as recommendations, I'll repeat my Trinket Mage suggestion. You can use the tutored cards to sneak in an extra creature with Hangarback, and the tutoring opens up a pretty wide array of options. Pithing Needles, Engineered Explosives, and so on. It's a type of versatility that other Pod decks just don't have, and there are even solid SB options for the package.
The Trinket Mage package I found myself liking was 1 Hangarback, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Engineered Explosives, 1 SDT, and potentially 1 Voltaic Key.
I think all of these suggestions can work, but I have an alternative take.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
Meren+Shriekmaw is kind of slow, but I actually really like Stronghold+Shriekmaw. It requires some manabase fiddling but it's a very powerful combination, if not a bit unreliable to draw them both together.
I disagree with the GSZ opinion. The real challenge of BUG is in trying to balance out the blue slots for FoW (if you use it) with the green needs for GSZ. GSZ however is very much worth running because it lets you run the deck as if you have far more lands than you actually do. Our gameplan optimally requires around 30 mana sources (maybe even more for Pod because they have a higher curve), and that's just not reasonable unless you use the Arbor trick to cheat a bit.
The Trinket Mage plan is key to making BUG work in my opinion, it keeps the blue count up and it lets you cheat a bit on your interaction count because the Mage adds both a body and a source of interaction if you find artifact based removal.
The problem with SE Fit is that nobody wants to play it b/c it forces us to make choices we're not willing to make, even though it's very likely the most stable, consistent list you'll ever run.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
As for Meren + Shriekmaw - try Karador + Shriekmaw (or any ETB-trigger). Plays well with Pod b/c you can get it via Fierce Empath (which you can then Pod away) and becomes cheaper b/c you dump creatures in your GY every chance you get.
On a sidenote - did anyone see the "Return all lands from all graveyards to the battlefield tapped" card..? Smells like combo to me!
Stunning Growth - this looks pretty good.
Would it be faster to mill a lethal Valakut than to just get to 7 lands? Might be doable. Need good self-mill options though. Is there much Jund has, short of just running the ton of Grisly Salvage variants they've printed now?
Edit: Squandered Resources is pretty good with this card.
I don't see it working:Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
- Harder to setup (speed is key)
- Impacted by any standard gravehate where Libraryhate almost doesn't exist yet (at least for land type of cards)
Edit: It would require a Dread Return type of card but for lands only so that we could build something using Dredge tools.
@Navsi: Gather the Pack and/or Grisly Salvage/Scout the Border/Vessel of Nascency and a large number of Eternal Witnesses..? And Life from the Loam and Volrath's Stronghold (into Witness) so you can get your Stunning Growth back.
Oh, and Sudden Reclamation.
Although that way you're pretty much running some form of Aggro Loam.
Yeah. I've been building some lists and filling the yard quickly enough requires too many dredge type cards to be worth it. I don't think it's worth running over Scapeshift, since Scape puts deckbuilding pressure on the manabase, but leaves the rest of the deck relatively alone. This thing puts the same (or more, since you need to fill the yard) pressure on the manabase and also makes you play a load of awful enablers.
The upside over Scapeshift is that it still does something (ramp you a load) when you don't have lethal available, whereas Scapeshift does nothing. I guess that's something, but it's probably not enough.
It's more that there are more efficient ways to fill your yard with easier ways to kill your opponent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
@ Thread:
First of all, here is an updated list for ABZAN PW Fit Control (initial list on p.312 for those interested) that I'm currently testing:
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
2 Bayou
3 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Mayor of Avabruck
1 Mystic Enforcer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Tireless Tracker
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Arlinn Kord
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Oath of Nissa
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Abeyance
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Deathrite Shaman
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
The sideboard is still under construction as it takes time to build something properly as there are so many MUs to be tested.
The main changes are about the addition of the fourth color: RED.
The idea behind was to upgrade (or at least to assess whether or not it is an upgrade) the following previous choices:
1) Master of the Wild Hunt into Huntmaster
2) Sorin, LoI into Arlinn Kord
3) Painful Truth into Oath of Nissa
Without spoiling:
1) Huntmaster > Master
2) Too soon to tell if Arlinn is worse or better than Sorin.
3) Oath of Nissa is very promising so far as it basically smooths your draws, acts as a ponder "like" in a deck with so few manipulation, grows the yard for threshold purpose when drawn in multiples & helps you cast PW with really weird mana setup which is always a big element of surprise.
Yet the deck is still under construction and requires loads more tests before drawing any meaningful conclusions.
But if you ask if it is viable, in its current form: Yes it is.
Anyway, feel free to chime in and share your experience or ideas if you have any.
Secondly, I have been doing some due diligence for people about the new green "POD" spoiler going live in July.
Here is my take (light proxy-testing only, but tested nonetheless):
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Plains
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
3 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Academy Rector
1 Archon of Justice
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Obstinate Baloth
3 Wall of Blossoms
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Birthing Pod
1 Recurring Nightmare
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Eldritch Evolution
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 Doomwake Giant
SB: 1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
Eldritch Evolution is a very nice addition. 4-of is not reliable enough but it will eventually take a slot or two in some future POD lists without any doubt.
Yet it is still to early to tell if the card will break our archetype but tricks & speed are there. And the latters matter. Period.
Anyway, this list is on the edge of the very control side of life, but it is not very far from what we might tend to in this kind of deck.
For those (too young or too lazy or "pick your weapon of choice") that have never tried any control deck involving Yosei. Now is the time.
The list is still very raw (2 Yosei might be needed but two 6 drops in a list without brainstorm is like committing a suicide if you ask me) but it has shown some very promising stuff.
The X=0 in the new green tutor is more powerful than I firstly thought about it. (Especially versus Combo decks)
Here again, feel free to express any feelings you may have or ask any question.
Happy to discuss.
Cheers all,
Ralf.
Hello,Quote:
Originally Posted by Gideonartra
Sorry I missed your answer.
This thread is moving at a pace that I can barely keep up with.
Why did I move from BUG to JUNK Pod ?
-> Because SFM>Strix. At least that was the case during some time. This has to be re-assessed since the Eldrazi's invasion.
-> Because equipping a Sigarda with a sword / Jitte / BSK feels like magical christmas land.
-> Because I like wind of changes.
Is it better ? No, just different.
I wish you luck for your event.
Crush'em ALL !!!
Gitrog is magic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
And with Dakmor Salvage + some zentithable way to discard like wild mongrel (have you seen the new one?) it's a one time dredge for all the deck.
Otherwise, have you seen the new enchantement Sigarda's blessing? Seems great in a SFM list.
Gitrog is great.
However, Dakmor Salvage combo is IMO not worth it. I've tried it multiple times now, but it has several major issues.
- Dakmor Salvage does nothing without Gitrog.
- Vulnerable to yard hate and creature removal, including Deathrite Shaman.
- 3 card combos are sloooooow. 2 card combos like Archangel + Spike Feeder are already clunky.
Sigarda's Blessing is okay (as in, does cool stuff) but I don't think its effect is worth a card. Flashing in a SoFaF in response to an Abrupt Decay is hilarious, but even there we still only got a 1-for-1 because we spent a whole card on Sigarda's Bless.
Thank you to everyone whom made suggestions and gave comments. Today I took the time to do a bit of researching and weighing considerations that were given here and did make some changes to the list. I feel they overall strengthen/solidify certain MU for me while freeing up clutter to add attention items to help against MU's where I may not have necessarily the best chance of winning.
the changes I made:
MB-
-1 Siege Rhino
-1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
-1 Painful Truths
-1 Phyrexian Tower
+1 Tireless Tracker
+1 Gaddock Teeg (From SB to MB)
+1 Garruk Relentless (From SB to MB)
+1 Savannah
SB-
-1 Rest in Peace
-1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
+1 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Surgical Extraction
+1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
+1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
___________
With what I took from the MB, I felt I could safely cut down to 3 Siege Rhino's to make room for a 2nd Tireless Tracker. Tracker has always been a great play, when I could see it as a singleton in the deck. The idea of having it moved up to 2, as the attrition value and potential threat range of the card is marvelous. Because I was putting in a 2nd Tracker, I felt i was save taking Painful Truth's down to 1. I also removed the Meren because I felt that I wanted to have Gaddock Teeg in the main deck. There are some matches that he either shuts down quite a few plays fairly well or does buy me the time I need to get things rolling. With Meren gone, I traded out the 2nd Phyrexian Tower for a 2nd Savannah as I had 2 Towers sort of as a combo with her as a means to quickly build up XP Counters and abuse the hell out of Siege Rhino's. Also a 2nd Savannah means another fetch target, which adds a tiny bit more consistency to Tireless Tracker. Garruk Relentless has been also moved to the main because of the pressure he allows me to put on some decks, in particular Miracles.
The side board I decided to take the Rest in Peace out and move a 2nd Surgical Extraction in. Rest in Peace does nearly eliminate threats from a lot of sources. 2 Surgical Extraction at least gives me the option of what to remove from threats that my opponent has and could potentially cripple their deck design if done correctly. And it's still graveyard hate. Ethersworn Canonist to help against the Storm MU and a few others with Spirit of the Labyrinth really there for those decks that like to draw a lot of cards (I love making their brainstorm's bad).
I also evolved Elspeth to her larger form because having the ability to go toe to toe with Eldrazi by destroying all their creatures seems extremely healthful. Furthermore she is also anther strong threat to bring in against the Miracles match, a few other decks too.
Overall I like these changes. I feel they help bring a bit more consistency to the deck by keeping strong what i am good at and making areas I am bad at less bad and hopefully increase my ability to survive through them terrible MU's.
Here's the new 75:
- - - - - -
Creatures (15):
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Siege Rhino
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
Sorcery (10):
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Painful Truth's
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Instants (5):
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
Enchantments (3):
3 Pernicious Deed
Artifacts (3):
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Planeswalkers (2):
Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Garruk Relentless
Lands (22):
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
- - - - -
Sideboard (15):
3 Thoughtseize
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Choke
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
That isn't what you use the second Tower for... You have it to increase the number of T1 Forest -> Veteran Explorer, T2 Phyrexian Tower -> go nuts draws you have. Building up XP counters with Meren happens accidentally at best, you don't plan for it to happen. There's just too much that can go wrong for that to work (and takes far too long to set up). You pretty much just play Meren for the CA she provides, all else is just icing on the cake.Quote:
Originally Posted by JemberaMakoa
The rest of your changes are fine, they do help you with your Miracles MU. Just be careful of Gaddock Teeg though, he has a habit of messing with your own plans as soon as he hits the field.
Teeg does, especially with GSZ. That's an issue I ran across, from time to time, with him when playing Maverick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I may, after this weekend, end up switching Meren and the 2nd Tower back into the deck. I know neither are really there for each other, but Tower and Veteran Explorer with a Meren on the field leads to some really stupid things happening extremely quick.
This just popped in my head - another huge value creature for Eldritch Evolution - Woodland Bellower. Turn a random 4-drop into Bellower + Eternal Witness or Bellower + Fierce Empath, fetch Tasigur/Gurmag Angler/Karador.
Turns Eldritch Evolution from a 1-for-2 to a 2-for-2 or 3-for-2. Might be some more Danger Of Cool Stuff though, since other 6-drops either walk away with the game (Grave Titan, Dromoka) or place your opponent in a vicegrip (Sun Titan) with a lot less setup.
Just wanted to put it out there.
It sucks Evolution that exiles itself.
If Evolution didn't exile itself it would be absurdly good. Goblin Dark Dwellers in particular would do stupid things. You could go from a 3-drop and 3 mana to a lethal combo directly.
Personally I'm looking at a slightly lower to the ground build, with EE as a tutor for a few silver bullets. In particular, turning Veteran Explorer or DRS into Magus of the Moon seems pretty good.
OMG, finally someone that gets it! EE + Vet Ex should generally be too slow. EE + DRS equals T2. Well, maybe with Thalia 2.0?Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Is susceptible to Daze though...
DRS > EE is mana neutral tempo negative card disadvantage that's open to blow outs. That is not where you went to be :/
I like the Bellower idea though, or using it to make a Pod deck more consistent.
Using EE on a Vet is exactly what we want to be doing to propel us into the midgame from the early game. However, it's not going to happen on turn two.
Using EE on a DRS is a way of playing more copies of miscellaneous 3-drops in the deck, at the expense of card disadvantage.
They're two very different lines that happen to both be made available by the same card.
I don't think Daze is much of a problem, the decks we want to wreck with Magus aren't the decks that play Daze.
We'd want to, but we probably can't. We want to hit the mid/lategame as quickly as possible since that's where we shine most, hence we'll feed our Vet to Phyrexian Tower/Cabal Therapy the first chance we get. Only after that we go for the fancy stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Sure we want to be feeding Vet to Tower or Therapy.
We play 8 copies of Vet (Zeniths + Explorers).
We play 5-6 sac outlets (4 Therapy + 1-2 Towers).
Adding 2-3 additional ways of killing our Veteran for value is something to consider when we can reasonably expect to have a Veteran without a sacrifice outlet in a reasonable percentage of games.
The nice thing about EE is that if we have already ditched a vet to get towards the midgame, it still works at upgrading our 2- and 3-drops like Witness, Strix, Stoneforge, Empath into serious threats.
@Navsi: It seems we agree :wink:.
The bit about missing sac outlets for your Veteran Explorer - it's one of the reason why I run 2 Diabolic Intent. That, and it's just a sick card.
With regards to using EE to get 3-drops off of DRS, Magus of the Moon + Sulfur Elemental + Scab-Clan Berserker pretty much cover most of our non-blue matchups (ie where we're actually willing to cast EE like that). Might be worth looking into? I could see 2 Magus maindeck with the other two in the sideboard for DnT and Storm.
Magus of the Moon seems like it might be a powerful choice in Jund just because it's great against two of the real bad matchups the R build have in Infect and Lands.
Those are all changes I've thought about doing to my list for similar reasons. Tireless Tracker is the nuts in this deck. There's almost nothing more satisfying then saccing Explorer to Tower, then getting two basics and clues, then using that mana to crack them. SO. MUCH. VALUE!!!! There is also something to be said about having four Rhinos, which allows consistent threat redundancy, but I feel you can go down on a Rhino for Tireless Tracker himself.Quote:
Originally Posted by JemberaMakoa
Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
Yes, show Tireless Tracker you care, go on.Quote:
Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack
I don't think you ment to say that... :laugh:
DAMMIT ECHELONQuote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
You might just become my first signature!Quote:
Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack
Edit: You know, I just realized Eldritch Evolution curves Fierce Empath beautifully into Summoner's Egg. I'm going to have such a fucking field day when this card is released! I have a beautiful list ready, but you guys'll have to wait for it. Gonna do some testing tomorrow.
Oh, I really like the bas of this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by JemberaMakoa
I want to try out a similar build but -1 Vetrean Ex -1 ThargTsk for +1 Sylvian Safekeeper, Titania, protector of argoth
I have only play both of them in the Jund version a few games but it felt nice. I want to try it out on the Junk Version as well.
Titania = Danger Of Cool Things. But feel free to find that out for yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganfar