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I'm not sure how my location or Ari's play status effects my question...but let me rephrase.
How many otherwise AnT players were playing a new brew this weekend trying out PiF? Do you think that played a role on the ability of the deck to T8? Or do you think enough players reacted in their sideboarding to squeeze out both Storm and Reanimator.
Hi guys
Road to Amsterdam: I think to propose this deck to GP
4 infernal tutor
4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
2 chrome mox
3 sensei's divining top
4 LED
4 lotus petal
4 brainstorm
4 preordain
2 lim dul's vault
1 ponder
1 ad nauseam
1 past in flames
1 tendril
4 duress
3 thoughtseize
4 polluded delta
2 flooded strand
2 bloodstainered mire
2 undeground sea
1 island
2 volcanic island
1 swamp
SIDEBOARD
3 empty the warrens
3 dark confidant
3 chain of vapor
2 extirpate
1 echoing thruth
1 slaughter pact
1 rebuild
1 hurkyll's recall
After MM banning, I think gitaxian probe is no good as before. I expect more combo, more tempo, less control and some aggro. I think LDV is a great bullet, giving more stability as SDT does.
PiF is insane. It is an asimmetrical IGG (except for artifact) that give us the possibility to win in late game also if opponent has 1 more counter than your protection.
in SB i dedicate some slot to resolve big issue ( Gaddok, Canonist, discard_effect, random chalices and trinispheres). Extirpate is great against Reanimator and combo in general, giving us a bullet also vs control/tempo.
ETWs from hand on turn 1/2 is the plane vs ctop.deck/tempo. After MM ( so after stoneblade/batterskull age) it seams to be a more powerful plan.
Thoughts?
your sideboard is a mess.
rebuild and hurky's aren't that good at all.
extirpate is really a waste of sideboard lots for a combolist.
stoneblade decks will be seen at GP amsterdam, so boarding in ETW is extremely risky.
LDV's may sound good, but they fail in it;s purpose. It's slow, costs life and it's very conditional.
you are far better off with just personal tutor or grim tutor.
I wouldn't want to play preordain over ponder...ponder digs deeper than preordain which is actually really important.
Thanks for your tips,
-I agree with you with Hurkyls and Rebuild: they are not good at all, but seams to be great vs Dragon stompy and MUD, that are very very very bad matchups.
-extirpate probably are useless (means win more), try to remove from my Side.
-Stoneblade might be at GP, but I think it has very bad matchups in this meta, so probably after turn 3 there is few of them at 9 points.
Grim tutor and personal tutor are so ugly, I don't consider them ( Grim has a life-point drawback so hard from Ad nauseam point of view, and personal tutor can fetch few cards and only at sorcery speed.)
the alternative is to cut LDV and SDT and insert 2 ponder and 3 gitaxian probe --> more faster, but good enougth? Means, really need to be faster? Or is more powerful try to gain stability?
@ponder over preO: PreO digs equal to ponder but in blind mode :) Clearly ponder digs qualitatively better, but if you catch Bomb garbage garbage and no shuffle effect you give 2 time walk to your opponet. PreO from this point of view is preferable, and IMHO clean the topdeck is a more powerful faeture.
What do you think about Gitaxian probe?
I don't see why you would consider Preordain better than Ponder when Ponder lets you see 4 new cards and it shuffles away the garbage on top of your library. Ponder does a better job in finding the nuts better than Preordain does.
You have to choose between 2 LDV/2-3 SDT and 4 Probes as they are competing for the same slot. I agree that LDV/SDT is more stable than Gitaxian Probes albeit much slower and don't give information on what the opponent has against you. It's a trade off and it all boils down to playstyle I guess. But when you have the nut draw, LDV/SDT becomes more useless than Probes.
My question is why would you prefer Past in Flames over Ill-Gotten Gains when PiF is inconsistent with the deck if you draw artifacts and less rituals. Pulp_Fiction hit the nail on the head when he said PiF should never be anything more than a wish target, ergo Burning Wishes (which you don't have).
It seems like 2 volcanic Island is unnecessary(why not just one?) and I think I would want an IGG in my 75 somewhere, reusing LEDs is pretty broken.
Ponder virtually show you 4 cards; infact when you shuffle you can draw a garbage you previously shuffle.
Anyway if there are no drawbacks il clever that ponder would be better than preO, but in a deck that play drawers insistently, clean topdeck is good. Let me explain with an example:
suppose you start on the play with: BS Ponder fetchlands and island and another 3 cards (ritual duress ecc). Assume you don't play against discard effect ( example is quite different in that case)
Now you can choise to island go --> eot BS topdeck one of garbage you put on the deck fetch and ponder on turn 2.
Or you can island ponder (bomb garbage garbage ), pick up bomb and on turn 2 you draw garbage, fetch and play brainstorm ( or play brainstorm and after fetch garbage).
-----------> You never optimize <------------
suppose you have the same hand with preO in place of ponder: BS preO fetchlands and island and another 3 cards (ritual duress ecc).
you can optimize doing:
t1: island PreO
t2: fetch --> brainstorm
in this case i have the possibility to see 6 card surely different.
Logically after turn 3 all change, but the deck intent is to kill on turn 3/4, so i think in the precombo phase you need to otpimize all.
IGG is powerful, but it is obsolete if you opponent play counters. In particolar if you play with discard effect you discard 2-3 counters and with IGG you can't kill your opponent.
Pif is powerfull also against blue.deck because is asimmetrical and also have flashback!
2 volcanic is because post side, when you side in ETW you want fast red mana. probably the best is to have 1 volcanic md and 1 volcanic SB.
I stopped reading after thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Ricca84
It's taking every fiber in my body not to troll this guy.
EDIT: Also in before anyone suggests Burning Wish in this thread and moving "x-posts" to the TES thread.
You need to optimize your deck to kill on turn 1 or 2 or else go play Aluren.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricca84
Hey Guys.
I'll attend a Tournament this weekend and I just wanted to double-check my thoughts.
The Meta will be crowded with Combo, Tempo and Maverick. Some Controlish builds here and there.
My thought was that packing Chants over Discard seems good in the Combo matchup (practical did that a while ago), but you have a weaker mana base and less to handle hatebears maverick will slam in your face. So I kind of abandoned that plan.
I am not completely sure if Probes are good in the Tempo-matchup(which worries me most) so I'll rely on your help here. Usually I'd play double Ad Nauseam, but I feel Probes create some speed which which is relevant vs. Maverick preboard and in the Combo-matchup as well.
My Standart list looks like this:
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground sea
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
1 Scalding Tarn
4 LED
4 DRit
4 CRit
4 Petal
4 Infernal
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils
1 IGG
Sideboard:
4 Confidant
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Thoughtseize
1 Tropical Island
4 Xantid Swarm
I feel running 8 Creatures in the board is kinda bad, but Xantid helps with counter-heavy decks. Since there is not to much Landstill additional ToA are not really needed... But maybe you guys can help me tune a little.
It's the first Tournament after MM bannings so my asumption of the meta is kinda vague.
Thanks for the help =)
What context are you talking in? I'm fairly sure this isn't true.Quote:
Originally Posted by death
I'm 100% sure this isn't true. Like I said, if you want to kill turn 1 or 2, go play Belcher or SI ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by AriLax
doublepost
@ gexx : to many basics...
You can easily cut that 2nd swamp for more fetch. there's not even a single situation where the second black mana is needed that cannot be from a dual fetched that turn.
Also that ammount of bounce in your sideboard could also be reduced.
vs tempo decks, that deck is a mess to fight, after sideboarding you rely on approx 10 protection spells. Maindboard you just have to try and sneak it through.
@ Death: what the heck are you talking about. The most ANT lists goldfish somewhere between turn 2-3. turn 1 kill are possible, but rarely happen.
@ gexx : to many basics...
You can easily cut that 2nd swamp for more fetch. there's not even a single situation where the second black mana is needed that cannot be from a dual fetched that turn.
Also that ammount of bounce in your sideboard could also be reduced.
vs tempo decks, that deck is a mess to fight, after sideboarding you rely on approx 10 protection spells. Maindboard you just have to try and sneak it through.
@ Death: what the heck are you talking about. The most ANT lists goldfish somewhere between turn 2-3. turn 1 kill are possible, but rarely happen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AriLax
Pre-MT ban this might have been true because MT slowed ANT down by missing draw/land drops, but in return MT gave resiliency/answers to hate. Without MT, U/B builds without Grim Tutor don't have resiliency to fight hate outside of AdN > Chain/E.Truth/Hurkyl's. Tuning ANT to be a t1/t2 deck isn't horrible bad and I think that's where we want to be because it solves all problems (fast combo/discard/hate bears/..). Green Sun's Zenith and NPH happened. Gitaxian Probe, Jin-Gitaxias, Phyrexian mana.. more free spells that potentially harm ANT. This forced me to give up IGG because it has become more a liability now without Chants and I'm not agreeable to a :w:-splash because it entails fetching nonblack (Tundra) or nonblue (Scrubland) just to make it work. IGG required mana, but with mana being available you can just tutor > ritual > tutor > tutor for a lethal tendrils.Quote:
Originally Posted by mort-
ANT is a dog to Reanimator, JGCA make it look they didn't lose consistency at all without Mystical. ANT with Probes are faster than ANT without it. So how else does someone beat fast combo like TES/PiF/etc, when he has resigned himself to the idea that ANT is a slower t3/4 deck. Play disruption? They can have those too btw. Ad Nauseam requires life total. Zoo/Burn can bring you down to 10 in 2 turns. So why not take ANT to the next level. Why surrender that ANT is slower than Belcher when technically Belcher needs 7 mana while ANT needs just 4 for Tendrils.
I don't believe the focus of ANT should stray away from t1 Duress, t2 win.
2 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Duress
2 Pact of Negation/Thoughtseize
2 Tendrils of Agony
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 City of Traitors
2 Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
The problem with that list is that if it doesn't work out the way you planned it ... it might never work out. You cant really just sit their and sculpt the perfect hand because you don't play an mana base that is survivable in this format.
Further more I don't understand how you say scrubland or tundra(don't tap for the colored mana you need) are bad when your playing city of traitors. If you think chant speeds you up then your playing the wrong city.
Or I can just kill them before they Wasteland me. Regarding my mana base, City is busted. I have no issues fetching a basic Island then going off with City + Petal/C.Mox + Rituals.. thanks to the 3 Moxen my Ad Nauseams have fizzled 0.01% because I have 5-6 0cc mana sources post AdN (excluding LEDs).
I don't want Chants. I prefer Duress because Chant is slow, it forces you to come up with :w: during your combo turn. City of Traitors is just fast, I don't understand why my explanation aren't enough.
"Or I can just kill them before they Wasteland me"
That would be first turn. Your approach is just making the deck faster and therefor less consistent.
If you are willing to do that, nobody will keep you from doing it. But you have only 6 real threats and you ALWAYS need one of them t1-2 or else youŽll be screwed? just sounds awful to me. I prefer to adapt my game to what my Opponent is playing and if I get a "lucky" turn1 kill, IŽm ok with it, too.
For example vs Canadian you need some turns to fight through their Force/Daze/Snare and usually, one Duress wonŽt be enough to do that.