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If you want to reliably beat CB, Elspeth is your card. Fireblast suffers from 3-for-one-yourself syndrome. While great at getting around a CB, any other counter spell ruins your day. Elspeth, OTOH, is amazing. Four gets around CB almost as well as 6, provides a continuous source of creatures and evasion pumps to get around their Wall of Goyf. Vendillion Clique is typically their only way to deal with Elspeth and Clique is fairly easy to deal with.
I think there's a lot of options to beating firespout. First, I think you should be playing 4 knight of the reliquary in the main. This gives you more big creatures for them to deal with, and 3cc is easier to sneak around balance. You could also consider Elspeth, but I'm not convinced she's necessary. There are also board options that I think I very reasonable to consider to help beat CB-firespout decks:
1) Choke: I think that this can really catch the counterbalancence player off guard, and many are bringing out force of will for straight creature removal. Even if they firespout this gives them so little mana to work off it's pretty strong anything. I think this is the best strategy against them.
2) Burrenton Forge-Tender: This card is a little more narrow, but it's also pretty useful in a lot of respects. First and foremost it says "counter target firespout." Or, if they have to use removal like swords on it, then they're not using In the mirror you can counter bolts/chains (though I'm not sure if you want to run this in the mirror...). It's great against goblins, and gets rid of bridge from below against dredge.
3) Duergar Hedge-mage: Now, why would this be particularly good against CB/firespout decks? Well, it gives you an answer to shackles or counterbalance or any other random things they have, while also giving you a creature to beat them down with. He can be countered, but he can also be useful to overwhelm the counterbalance player with creatures.
It really depends on the metagame, in my opinion.
While 4 Knight (plus maybe Elspeth) is great against the 4c CounterTop lists, those cards are suboptimal in the tribal matchups, as they're either too cost-heavy (thinking of Merfolk, where I'd rather have smaller guys and more removal) or come online a little too late (thinking of Goblins, same logic as it hogs your resources).
I will probably play just one Knight in the main again, and board a little heavier for the Counterbalance decks. Out of the cards above I think Choke is the best option as a game breaking sideboard card against the control decks, and will likely be playing at least two copies, maybe three, in my sideboard. The Hedge-Mage seems fine, although in those situations I'd rather just have Krosan Grip, as the latter simply deals with more (I'm thinking Humility), and there's simply no reason to commit too many board slots to Artifact/Enchantment hate.
Btw, if anyone here is going to Indy, come by and say hi.
Its a difficult MU esp for the "traditional" one with multiple one-drops. E.g. you start off with Nacatl, follow it up with 2 more one-drops like Figure, or Ape, Loam Lion, Mancer etc. Next thing he Firespouts or EE which cleans up your board. The most difficult in my personal experience is the UGR-CTop-Dreadstill. They have Goyf which slows down the game. Plus mana denial package in Stifle + Wasteland.Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpT
Post board, things become a lot easier. You board in REBs or Pyro. Krosan Grip (s), Pithing for Wasteland, Senseis, among others.
I am on board wiht you regarding the first two paragraphs. I now run four KotR and haven't looked back. Mana is rarely an issue with my Zoo deck, specifically mine, it seems to like me. +1Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
Choke is often an undervalued and underused card. More often than not opponents have lamented at its presence, and it is indeed a great way to thwart CB's strategy. If you are running Price of PRogress, Choke isn't as good cuz they might either play around it in the first place and not get blown out with four duals on the board when basics could have worked. If not running PoP, choke is a solid hoser card for blue decks. It's usually good form to not drop it on turn 3 when you could play around a daze or hold mana for a REB
Using 'logic' on me eh? Pfffh...whatever. I hear you though, it isn't likely that Helix will do you much good. SITES is a fairly resilient combo deck with the whole Burning Wish package. Not unbeatable, but tough as you can't outrace them in most matches.Quote:
Originally Posted by keys
The only evidence I have is one game against a SITES player who got to a 10 storm count (barely) and had an empty hand on turn 2. If I had cast Lightning Helix in response to Tendrils (I was at 18 life) I would have lived at 1 life and been able to at least get into the game. As it were, I floundered to a 0-2 record. Game 2 I had a Mindbreak Trap in hand...which he Duress-ed mid-combo. My only option was to Trap the Duress, but I knew it was game over.
Technically, you want to cast Helix in response to the storm trigger (or after any copy resolves prior to lethal).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
I haven't run a Zoo deck with Loam Lions, Kird Apes or Figure of Destiny in ages. They are vastly outclassed by other options.Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ_JKidd
My typical Zoo creature base is:
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Steppe Lynx
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
Not overextending is a good thing. Running Lavamancers out early to get Firespouted sounds like a pretty bad idea. If you haven't tried Elspeth, try her out. She was amazing against control. She makes dudes. She jumps cats. Pumps Goyf if she dies. Just an amazing card for that MU.
So I decided to cut my Gaddock Teegs and made a few other changes to my main and sideboard. Here's what I'm running now.
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
2 Savannah
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Steppe Lynx
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Chain Lightning
2 Fireblast
2 Sylvan Library
// Sideboard:
2 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Pyroblast
2 Krosan Grip
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
4 Mindbreak Trap
I decided I wanted to up the 1-drop count, and I picked up the Karakas as an answer to Show and Tell decks and (occasionally) dredge (where you can hit their Iona). With Teeg out, I cut Lightning Helix for Fireblast which I haven't tested yet. Kataki, War's Wage could probably stand to be something else, but I like having the stone nuts vs Affinity, which shows up frequently at the minor Legacy events in my area. If I were to cut it, it would probably be for Vexing Shusher or Choke vs Control or Umezawa's Jitte vs. aggro.
Any advice/tips?
I would run 4 Steppe Lynx, if you want to make use of them in Zoo then you want to increase your chance of having one in your opening hand. I'm also a big fan of Grim Lavamancer and I don't understand why some people only run 3. I would go -2 Kird Ape +1 Steppe Lynx & + 1 Grim Lavamancer.
I definitely agree that 4 Steppe Lynx is correct. I like 3 Lavamancers though. Lavamancer is the card I want to see one of, not two of. Two Lavamancers means one of them is a 1/1 for 1. Kird Apes are worthless though. I still really like Espeth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelis
However, Lavamancer is incredibly useful against tribal -- with so many Aether Vials in the recent SCG Top 8's, is four copies of it not a correct call for the metagame? That's what I'm running, anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpT
In my experience it's not needed. You generally are faster, have bigger creatures, and have more spot removal for anything of theirs that is a threat. This is in addition to having lavamancer which almost completely shuts tribal down by himself, so to me 3 seems like the right call. Sure, it helps the tribal matchup, but that's not really a matchup that we need help with in my opinion so I'd rather play cards that are better against other matchups. Also, as it's been said, drawing 2 is usually really awful, and I like to try to reduce the amount of times that zoo can give me hands that I don't like. Personally I'd probably even run umezawa's jitte before the 4th lavamancer, since that diversifies your answers against decks.
4 wooded foothills
3 arid mesa
3 windswept heath
3 horizon canopy
1 forest
1 plains
1 mountain
3 taiga
2 plateau
1 savannah
4 nacatl
3 steppe lynx
4 grim lavamancer
4 qasali pridemage
4 goyf
3 knight of the reliquary
4 bolt
4 chain lightning
4 path
2 fireblast
2 sylvan library
SB:
3 krosan grip
3 choke
3 price of progress
2 volcanic fallout
1 karakas
2 swords to plowshares
1 bojuka bog
My main deck has been pretty spectacular for me recently, though I'm trying to find room for the 4th lynx.
The SB changes every tournament, but lately I've found that price of progress is ridiculous in most matchups, and volcanic fallout is huge for the goblins match up, which has been gaining a lot of popularity since winning the last 2 scg opens.
I've been recently looking into the big zoo lists that have been popping up in europe a lot lately and I would love to hear from some one who has done a good amount of testing with it whether it is any good.
Sure. But Lavamancer has only so much gas. That's why two is overkill. It's not like Merfolk is ever going to kill him, and if Goblins does, you've still got a lot of removal and better creatures than they do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbid-
IMO, you rarely want to drop him early. You shouldn't be running him out there to catch an early Incinerator because he won't be useful early when you have little GY and you can play bigger, better creatures. He also has negative synergy with KotR and/or Goyf.
The fact that he doesn't die in Merfolk, can run out of gas and has negative synergy with KotR and Goyf lead me to the conclusion that I only want to see one a game. That leads me to 3 instead of 4. I don't think that 4 is the worst idea in the world, and an increase in Goblins is certainly a good reason to play 4. Personally, I've never liked 4 just because I've been stuck with 2 too often, but that may need to be re-evaluated with the dominance of Goblins.
I don't know how much this will help, being a random guy on the internet, but here goes!Quote:
Originally Posted by beastman
I played a variant for about a month or so a few months back, but I don't know if it's relevant now since that was when Survival was legal. It was okay, went 2-2, 4-1-1, 1-3 in weekly tournaments and 3-2 in a bigger monthly.
The list varied, but here was the list I used the last time I played it:
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3 Chain Lightning
3 Pithing Needle
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Wasteland
//Sideboard
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Null Rod
1 Powder Keg
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Choke
2 Pyroblast
I went back to normal Zoo because Needles were too good in my meta, so I couldn't run as many bombs as intended for the big version.
The only big thing I took from it was that Wasteland just wasn't worth it. The deck didn't have enough game breaking plays with it to warrant cutting mana sources or playing it as a spell and cutting business.
If I wanted to pick it up after Survival, I'd probably replace those Needle slots with more bombs(Ajani Vengeant, Library), cut the wastes for a basic/dual and maybe find room for the Fire/Grove combo. That or just cut the Hierarchs for Lynxes and bump up to 22-23 land to make it just Zoo with a few more bombs mid-late game. I don't see how 2 4-drops and 4 3s aren't castable with that amount.
Hope this helped at least a little.
I haven't even really tried needle in the side. I'd like to know if the maindeck heirarchs are worth the lost power to be able to play cards like ajani and elspeth better.
I cut needle out of the 75 after Survival got banned, had em maindecked since there was a critical mass of things to needle that this deck didn't like seeing(Equips, Survival, Vial, etc).Quote:
Originally Posted by beastman
I'd run Hierarch if you plan on going huge(4 walkers, fire/grove combo) since you'll almost always need the mana boost then. Only time i really hated Hierarch was when I saw doubles in my opener or I keep a hand like Hierarch, Knight, Elspeth, 2-3 land, see my hierarch stp/bolted and all of a sudden look clunky. T2 Knight isn't great too many times either, since hes a 3/3 usually.
If you just run two Elspeth with 3-4 knights, I think you would be fine just going to 22-23 land and keeping the lynxes in. Might try something like that next time I go to a tournament.
I think if your playing a bunch of 4 drops and 4 knights, I would definetely keep in the heirarchs. What I meant was, is having said 4 drops powerful enough to warrant the required lack of explosiveness?
Yeah, you get a little slower for better topdecks mid-late game. Your nut draws are about as fast, you just see them less. If your first attacks dont get through, you'll be sitting with knights and walkers instead of burn intended to finish games off.Quote:
Originally Posted by beastman
Sorry if I'm not being clear, I've never done a great job explaining things lol.