[Deck] Dredge

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Originally Posted by Izor

Congratz, Jares! Nice finish.

I like your list, it's something new for me to play the 16th land, but if it worked I guess it's viable. Generally I think 15 are enough, but if you have the room anyway, why not 16. My LEDless list is pretty similar to yours. I just play one less Land and I also split the set of Lootings into some Lootings and Tribes. Should play out pretty much the same though.


And see? Told you guys LEDless isn't out of the race yet. It's still perfectly playable and to be honest, it still has a lot of advantages over LED Dredge. It's just not strictly better any more.


@ Darvus: Yeah, I also usually Therapy for GSZ first, not only because they mostly have to GSZ to find Ooze anyway, but also because they can fetch KotR with it as well. If you hit you kind ofm dealt with the two most potent threats at the same time.

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I strongly considered cutting the 16th land (the 4th Tarnished Citadel) in favor of a 13th Dredger (Darkblast). In the end, I realized that I really wanted to look at the 4th Tarnished Citadel as the 12th Gold Land rather than being the 16th land. Because my build is built on maximizing the consistency of the opening hand, I trusted the math, as the numbers showed that I would get better probabilities by adding the 12th Gold Land rather than adding the 13th Dredger. In retrospect, I just realized that I never had to mulligan to 5, and only needed to mulligan to 6 four times in 17 games (and only once on a Game 1) - which is right around the probabilities that I've been playing with.

Running the full set of Careful Study and Faithless Looting was crucial to how I built the deck, as this also allowed me to look into the probabilities of drawing into cards after playing Careful Study/Faithless Looting on the first turn. This also allowed me to decide on choosing Faerie Macabre over Leyline of the Void, as drawing into Faerie Macabre would be incomparably better. My chances of drawing into the other SB cards I need have also increased because of the availability 8x Careful Study effects in the deck.

Honestly, I wouldn't say that LED Dredge doesn't have the advantage over LEDless Dredge as of the moment. As much as I didn't really miss LED, I couldn't help but wonder if I could still increase the speed and consistency of the deck by using LED. I'm glad, though, that I was successful even if I wasn't using LED. Moving forward, I'll be trying to improve on the build and test it with LED to see if any clear advantages could be established between the two versions.

Kind Regards,
jares

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Originally Posted by Gui

@ Jares
Congrats on the finish! I like your list, since i'm a defender of LEDless dredge, although I'm with Fortune here, I wouldn't play all 4 citadel...

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Good to see that there are others trying to explore how LEDless Dredge will evolve (or become extinct :confused:) after the printing of Faithless Looting.

Regarding the 16th land, kindly refer to my response to Izor for additional information. In addition to those points, I'm thinking that If I were to insist on running 16 lands, running a singleton Undiscovered Paradise might be the most reasonable option. I'm the type that would gladly take damage in exchange for consistency/reliability, though, so this might really just be a personal preference or a reflection of my character :tongue:. Based on experience, though, I've only ever had one instance where the self-inflicted damage really mattered (vs U/R Delver) - and even then, I eventually won the match-up. I'll probably continue thinking that the self-inflicted damage is worth the risk until I get my ass kicked by a competent player fielding a Burn deck :laugh:.

As a side note, I noticed that there were scenarios where Tarnished Citadel actually saved me some damage by providing colorless mana during the games that required me to be more methodical. For this reason, my opponent actually Wastelanded it rather than my City of Brass! Dunno if that was the right play though :laugh:

Kind Regards,
jares

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Originally Posted by Mojeh

Congratz, Jares and Dredgekid =D

@Jares: You said you didn't use your DR's all day, and still, you have beaten Surgical Extraction... how do you feel about it? I mean, diversifying our threats is something to consider while fighting Extraction.

Also, how do you feel about the 16th land?

I really like Firestorm in the main deck, and I usually play it over Faithless looting, the 16th land has to do with this choice of yours?

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Kindly refer to my responses to Gui and Izor for some notes regarding the 16th land. To answer your specific question, yes, I did consider that having as many lands as possible would increase the chances of being able to Flashback a Faithless Looting via the garden-variety, non-LED way. I didn't expect to able to do this too often, though, or that it would actually matter when it happens, so I was surprised when the scenario occurred where being able to Flashback the Faithless Looting actually became very useful. I also mentioned in my report that having the extra land made me more resistant to Wasteland, which was crucial given that I encountered the card several times during the elimination rounds.

Regarding Surgical Extraction (and even Extirpate), I've found that these cards target our dredgers more often than our threats. The same was true during the last tourney that I played. Based on that observation, I've learned to fear the cards that either remove your graveyard entirely (e.g. Tormod's Crypt) or prevent you from getting cards into your graveyard (e.g. Leyline of the Void). The players that I've been up against might probably be using their Surgical Extractions the wrong way by targeting my dredgers whenever they can, but I personally believe that Dredge loses whenever it fails to dredge, so targeting my dredgers isn't strictly a wrong play. In summary, I haven't responded to Surgical Extraction by increasing the threat density of the deck because I haven't felt the need to - this might eventually bite me in the ass, but taking the risk has been worth it so far. I've been considering playing around with Ashen Ghoul, but that's still in the testing phase. As a corner case, I did consider that, while Faerie Macabre is there for the Reanimator and Mirror match-ups, it also has the added benefit of being able to address Surgical Extraction if the situation drastically calls for it.

Kind Regards,
jares

Julian Hecker Top8ed Eternal Weekend Mol with Quadlaser LED Dredge!:)

Hey everyone, I just went 4-0 in the Magic Online daily event yesterday. I know its nothing special but, I played a pretty standard LED list and I lost only one game (Game 1 oddly enough) and the deck seems so powerful right now. The hate that I played against was scaveging ooze (the one I hate the most) Faerie macabres, and a leyline of void.

1) I'm obviously not advocating Phantasmagorian, Lion's Eye Diamond, Firestorm and Tireless Tribe all in the same deck, I'm saying that if you're playing Cephalid Coliseum then you should be playing X cards that enable your Cephalid Coliseum on the following turn and that don't require you to use your draw spells to do it. If you're playing turn 1 land, Careful Study into turn 2 Cephalid Coliseum then you're exposing yourself to counter magic unnecessarily compared to DDD, Turn 2 Study (counter) Turn 3 Cephalid Coliseum where you still reach your fundamental turn thru' disruption. If you're playing Cephalid Coliseum and you're not playing Lion's Eye Diamond over Breakthrough then you're probably doing it wrong, because LED powers Coliseum a turn earlier and can be used to bait counters and resolve another threat on the same turn while Breakthrough has always had disynergy with Coliseum.

I personally wouldn't play with Coliseum because it doesn't agree with my philosophy of DDD, land, draw spell but if I did I'd be certain I could consistently cast the card without sacrificing a business spell to do it.

2) I think Chain of Vapor vs Nature's Claim is going to be SB dependent, I see more Surgical Extraction in Snapcaster decks, Faerie Macabre in aggro decks and Leyline of the Void/Grafdigger's Cage than I see Tormod's Crypt, Nihil Spellbomb and Relic of Progenitus not to mention Chain of Vapor is always useful in the event they don't draw hate. If the latter hate cards became more prevalent, I'd either reconsider my position on Putrid Imp and/or SB Ancient Grudge.

3) As far as Phantasmagorian/DDDing is concerned, it's about as fast if not slightly slower, right now I'm playing 4xLion's Eye Diamond, 4xBreakthrough, 4xFaithless Looting and 4xCareful Study game 1, with Lion's Eye Diamond replacing the Dread Return targets, and I usually have an over whelming board presence by turn 3. If I weren't playing Lion's Eye Diamond MD, I'd probably be playing Firestorm instead so I think it's a moot point what 4 GSZ and 1 Scavanging Ooze can do to the deck. There are so many more scarrier cards than Scavanging Ooze that you need the board space to deal with, and considering Maverick doesn't play counter spells your graveyard is going to be too far along for Savanging Ooze to matter very often.

4) I have no doubt Putrid Imp can win game 1's, as well as Putrid Imp being useful facing Tormod's Crypt in the same way I'm certain that Phantasmagorian is always better than Putrid Imp game 1 and only marginal less useful game 2 vs specific hate. It's great that Dredge is placing, but the power curve of the deck and the unpreparedness of the metagame will carry the pilot despite sub-optimal card choices. Considering no one is playing Phantasmagorian as far as I can tell, it's only logical Putrid Imp is going to be in the Dredge deck that places instead of Phantasmagorian because it has no representation. As far as I'm concerned Manaless Dredge and 4eak's hybrid list have already proven the viability of the strategy as a whole.

Game 1 is so incredibly important for Dredge that you can't afford to lose it at any costs, and playing first and blindly casting Putrid Imp is an unnecessary risk that will, at some point, put you in the losers bracket. I don't see any reason to take that chance, especially when Phantasmagorian Dredge is still plenty good on the play if they get cute and decide to draw. It's so easy for people to justify their decisions based on winning and only analyze their losses for fault, this lazyness just describes every Dredge player I've talked to and holds back optimization. Just pointing out what Putrid Imp obviously does on some simplified diagram that doesn't actually take into account what Phantasmagorian really does, which is incredibly difficult to describe or calculate, and treating tournament results as the holy grail isn't an "actual argument" either. Steven Menendian was trying to pass that bull shit logic out to explain why nobody should play Dredge in the first place, and here we are.

I honestly don't understand how the slow Dredge variants are even viable right now. If you are not playing against UW Stoneblade, I really don't see how manaless or slow strategies are viable. Aren't you just getting crushed by maindeck Oozes, combo decks, and fast aggro?

For reference, here is my deck. I think it has a pretty strong gameplan against every strategy, and it is the fastest Dredge deck I have seen in game 1.

4 Breakthrough
4 Faithless Looting
1 Careful Study
4 Putrid Imp

4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
2 Ichorid

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
1 Flame-kin Zealot

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Lotus Petal
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mines

SB
4 Nature's Claim
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Memory's Journey
3 Firestorm
1 Dread Return
1 Elesh Norn
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
1 Ichorid

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

1) I'm obviously not advocating Phantasmagorian, Lion's Eye Diamond, Firestorm and Tireless Tribe all in the same deck, I'm saying that if you're playing Cephalid Coliseum then you should be playing X cards that enable your Cephalid Coliseum on the following turn and that don't require you to use your draw spells to do it. If you're playing turn 1 land, Careful Study into turn 2 Cephalid Coliseum then you're exposing yourself to counter magic unnecessarily compared to DDD, Turn 2 Study (counter) Turn 3 Cephalid Coliseum where you still reach your fundamental turn thru' disruption. If you're playing Cephalid Coliseum and you're not playing Lion's Eye Diamond over Breakthrough then you're probably doing it wrong, because LED powers Coliseum a turn earlier and can be used to bait counters and resolve another threat on the same turn while Breakthrough has always had disynergy with Coliseum.

I personally wouldn't play with Coliseum because it doesn't agree with my philosophy of DDD, land, draw spell but if I did I'd be certain I could consistently cast the card without sacrificing a business spell to do it.

2) I think Chain of Vapor vs Nature's Claim is going to be SB dependent, I see more Surgical Extraction in Snapcaster decks, Faerie Macabre in aggro decks and Leyline of the Void/Grafdigger's Cage than I see Tormod's Crypt, Nihil Spellbomb and Relic of Progenitus not to mention Chain of Vapor is always useful in the event they don't draw hate. If the latter hate cards became more prevalent, I'd either reconsider my position on Putrid Imp and/or SB Ancient Grudge.

3) As far as Phantasmagorian/DDDing is concerned, it's about as fast if not slightly slower, right now I'm playing 4xLion's Eye Diamond, 4xBreakthrough, 4xFaithless Looting and 4xCareful Study game 1, with Lion's Eye Diamond replacing the Dread Return targets, and I usually have an over whelming board presence by turn 3. If I weren't playing Lion's Eye Diamond MD, I'd probably be playing Firestorm instead so I think it's a moot point what 4 GSZ and 1 Scavanging Ooze can do to the deck. There are so many more scarrier cards than Scavanging Ooze that you need the board space to deal with, and considering Maverick doesn't play counter spells your graveyard is going to be too far along for Savanging Ooze to matter very often.

4) I have no doubt Putrid Imp can win game 1's, as well as Putrid Imp being useful facing Tormod's Crypt in the same way I'm certain that Phantasmagorian is always better than Putrid Imp game 1 and only marginal less useful game 2 vs specific hate. It's great that Dredge is placing, but the power curve of the deck and the unpreparedness of the metagame will carry the pilot despite sub-optimal card choices. Considering no one is playing Phantasmagorian as far as I can tell, it's only logical Putrid Imp is going to be in the Dredge deck that places instead of Phantasmagorian because it has no representation. As far as I'm concerned Manaless Dredge and 4eak's hybrid list have already proven the viability of the strategy as a whole.

Game 1 is so incredibly important for Dredge that you can't afford to lose it at any costs, and playing first and blindly casting Putrid Imp is an unnecessary risk that will, at some point, put you in the losers bracket. I don't see any reason to take that chance, especially when Phantasmagorian Dredge is still plenty good on the play if they get cute and decide to draw. It's so easy for people to justify their decisions based on winning and only analyze their losses for fault, this lazyness just describes every Dredge player I've talked to and holds back optimization. Just pointing out what Putrid Imp obviously does on some simplified diagram that doesn't actually take into account what Phantasmagorian really does, which is incredibly difficult to describe or calculate, and treating tournament results as the holy grail isn't an "actual argument" either. Steven Menendian was trying to pass that bull shit logic out to explain why nobody should play Dredge in the first place, and here we are.

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Final Fortune,

Again, rather than make SOUND ARGUMENTS and provide SOLID RESULTS, you instead choose to make EXCUSES for your inability to prove your points and for perennially being proven wrong by what actually happens in the events that we want to conquer - tournaments (or competition, in general).

WINNING is what proves that your theory-crafting, philosophizing, and testing was wisely exercised, and as much as you are correct that we should not use winning as an excuse to put-off optimization, you should also refrain from using other people's so-called "laziness" to justify not being able to prove your point. To provide a counterexample to disprove your excuses, I would like to note that I personally have focused more on optimization specifically because I've been winning, and have even gone to great lengths to understand the math that governs the composition of the Dredge Archetype in general - and because of this, I discovered that I still have much to learn.

I'm sure that you're tired of explaining yourself over and over again, and I can assure you that many of us are also tired of going through your BASELESS STATEMENTS, so maybe we can at least come to agree on the following points:

• Everyone is entitled to their own OPINION, and we should RESPECT the ideas of others at all times.
• Our opinions become VALID ARGUMENTS whenever we provide SOUND REASONING, MATHEMATICAL BASIS, and SOLID RESULTS to support our ideas. At the end of the day, there are no right or wrong arguments, only foolish or defensible ones.
• It is everyone's right to have a different opinion, but what really matters is that we refrain from being DISAGREEABLE whenever we disagree.

As a conclusion, I would simply like to say that I agree to disagree with you. I hope that you would also do the same.

For those that agree with what has been stated here, kindly sound-off.

Sincerely,
jares

How does breakthrough desynergize with Coliseum? I thought the entire point of dredging was to dump as many dredgers as you could to your graveyard, and then replace as many draw effects as possible? So doesn't it make more sense to use as many draw and discard outlets as reasonably possible? By the same token, doesn't it make more sense to use a Discard outlet that you can discard any number of cards on demand instead of a certain number? I know there have been times where post Tormods or whatever else I'll only have one dredger in my hand, and Phantasmagorian will not enable that single card as a dredger, where Putrid imp will.

At this point all it seems to be is bickering over card preference and play style, but I am see less Phantasmagorian in winning lists and more Putrid Imps, I am not trying to say anyone is right or wrong, but so far tournament listings and showings seem to give more accreditation to Putrid Imp.

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Originally Posted by Beatusnox

At this point all it seems to be is bickering over card preference and play style, but I am seeing less Phantasmagorian in winning lists and more Putrid Imps, I am not trying to say anyone is right or wrong, but so far tournament listings and showings seem to give more accreditation to Putrid Imp.

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My point exactly. We all just need to keep an open mind.

Cheers,
jares

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

Julian Hecker Top8ed Eternal Weekend Mol with Quadlaser LED Dredge!:)

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Yeah i was there too. I didn't see the top 8 matches though :frown:.

I went 3-4 with LED dredge. Started the tournament well and then just started making the worst plays ever. But oh well, i guess it was ok for my first tournament :laugh:
I liked my list, sun titan was awesome as allways and it seemed to do well but i mulliganed way too often. So now i decided to give DR-targetless dredge a shot. It's true you don't need the DR targets game 1. I kept 2 DR's main though to keep some sideboard space open. The results are quite impressive, by just changing 2 cards i mulligan a lot less. 4CS and 4 looting is really really good and makes dredge so consistent.

Here is the list I am looking at post Faithless Looting. Any suggestions?

Dredgers - 11

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

Critters - 11

3 Putrid Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba

Draw Spells - 10

4 Breakthrough
2 Careful Study
3 Faithless Looting
1 Deep Analysis

Others - 10

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return

Dread Return Targets - 2

1 Sun Titan
1 Flame-kin Zealot

Mana Sources -16

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 lion's Eye Diamond

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Originally Posted by burtonbaron62

Here is the list I am looking at post Faithless Looting. Any suggestions?

Dredgers - 11

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

Critters - 11

3 Putrid Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba

Draw Spells - 10

4 Breakthrough
2 Careful Study
3 Faithless Looting
1 Deep Analysis

Others - 10

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return

Dread Return Targets - 2

1 Sun Titan
1 Flame-kin Zealot

Mana Sources -16

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 lion's Eye Diamond

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I would definitely cut the deep analysis for a 4th PImp. We have looting to flash back, analysis is overkill. Other than that, I would cut an ichorid for a study. I really think every dredge deck should start their draw spells with 4 study 4 looting. It increases the decks consistency too much to be ignored. Study was the best card in the deck pre-DKA, and now we get 8 of them. Why would we not play all 8?

So many developments in dredge.. where to begin? So both Adam Prosak and Richard Feldman expressed their distaste for anti-hate. And when pros talk, I listen. I haven't seen anyone really take this into consideration.. They make really compelling arguments. First of all, predicting the opponents hate game 2 is often impossible, which either results in us randomly sticking anti-hate into our MD or ignoring it till game 3, which makes our anti-hate so inefficient. We could easily replace those slots with cards that give us an edge against bad match-ups, cards that we can confidently side in game 2. Secondly, we lose when we don't dredge, end of story. So occupying our first and second turns to situate janky anti-hate seems like a really bad idea, and a really great way to let the opponent develop an advantage. Thirdly, what are the odds of anti-hate actually being effective? (more effective than detrimental I should say.) With the exception of flashback effects, the odds are extremely slim that you'll rip a Chain of Vapor out of 60 and you're opponent will simultaneously rip a Leyline out of 60.

Leyline sucks, in a real personal way for us dredge players, but is it reason enough to devote half of our sideboards? I've been play testing LED-dredge without dedicated anti-hate, and I think I like it. I'll be upfront with you, you'll scoop to Leyline and Cage, perhaps Wheel of Sun and Moon too, if you get a slow start. The thing is, they will only be running a play set of one of these at the very most. Meaning, if we utilize dredge, which shouldn't be hard with the addition of Faithless Looting, we should easily take game 1. Then we just need to win either game 2 or 3. The odds of them ripping their anti-hate, 4 in 60, is extremely slim. And even if they do, we have another game where we're once again saying, "Defy probability by drawing another leyline or gg." I should also add, there's obviously more hate out there than Leyline, Cage, and Sun -n- Moon, but the rest is manageable, especially in a deck that's peaking in efficiency and speed by not being diluted with ineffective counter-hate.

They also mentioned Ichorids being amazing, sequentially always running 4 between MD and SB. Richard emphasized the importance of running 4 MD Cabal, and Adam admitted that only running three was probably incorrect. Richard also emphasized the importance of utilizing our dredgers, saying only three 4-6 dredgers were printed, and we should max out on them. (goes along with the "we lose when we don't dredge" spiel.)

For those of you that already read the articles, sorry for the repeat, but what do you guys think about all this? The last points seems pretty straight forward but I'm so intrigued with the notion of ignoring hate. Don't get me wrong, there's cards that work against bad match-ups and double as anti-hate, such as Ancient Grudge or Faerie Macabre, which are both in my side. But, their advantage comes from their ability to broadly answer big problems for us, in a very meaningful way. Also, I know meta would factor in a lot here, but regardless, is it worth slipping behind to try to answer possible hate or better to elevate your deck to the next level with consistency, speed, and practical sideboarding?

Adam's article: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l..._Straight.html

Richard's article: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...Dredge_Fu.html

@jares Talking about winning results and statistics makes no sense in terms of deck optimizing.

Final Fortune is trying to improve Dredge archtype in someway (despite being rude as fuck). We can't prove our point without more people testing ideas.

It just makes no sense. We can't argue with 95% of the players that play Putrid Imp and Lion's Eye Diamond. It's just majority, right? And these 95% are usually as narrow-minded as they can be and can't give a new idea a few seconds of worthy thinking or testing.

A good example of this was when Mental Misstep was arround, and everyone stopped playing Dredge because their Dorks were being countered consistently. Until someone came with Phantasmagorian and other decktechs. And they were proven good, and became played more often.

Another example happened in Goblins.dec. Goblin Warchief and Goblin Piledriver were sacred cows. It was just a sin to build their decks without these two as four-of. Nowdays, the Goblins' list doesn't even run Warchief, and maybe 1~2 copies of Piledriver. The point i'm trying to bring is: There isn't a Core in Dredge nor a sacred cow (Cephalid Coliseum, for some), there're different approaches in every single base of this deck (mana, discard, draw, and threats).

What Final Fortune is trying to do is to bring up some new ideas, or how to approach Dredge's goals in a safe way. And I don't really blame him for that. Just give his list a try, and take your own conclusions before nuking his lack of Lion's Eye Diamondness.

@Matt Feldman's article is crap. And Adam Prosak is not a Dredge player.

Graveyard Hate is what stops Dredge from being the best deck in Legacy. And now you say that we should ignore the hate? Okay, imagine this situation: You're in a semi-final or final of a large tournament, and your foe just drops a Leyline of the Void. You just say: Okay, I concede? Is that the right attitute toward difficulties?

I agree that predicting what your opponen't will bring is hard, but you can shoot blind if you know what's going on in the other archtypes (should be as easy as firing a Cabal Therapy). As a good example I may bring:

GW/x Maverick: Enlightned Tutor board + Wheel of Sun and Moon/Tormod's Crypt + GSZ and Scavenging Ooze.
UW/x Stoneblade: Surgical Extraction.
RUG Tempo: Surgical Extraction or Tormod's Crypt.
Nic Fit: Leyline of the Void or Tormod's Crypt.
ANT: maybe Surgical Extraction.
Merfolk: Relic of Progenitus/Crypt/Cage
Bant Aggro: Surgical Extraction or Tormod's Crypt. Maybe Scaveging Ooze.
Elves: Faerie Macabre.
Zoo: Tormod's Crypt of Faerie Macabre.
UR Delver: Surgical Extraction.
Burn: Cage/Crypt/Relic

If you give up on trying to fight what stops Dredge, you're as bad as some ANT player that scoops to anything playing Islands.

Decklists are up!
The Germans hold up the flag for dredge!
Julian Hecker made Legacy AND Vintage Top8 at Magic Eternal Weekend Mol with Dredge, fellow dredger Richard Webels made Vintage Top8, too.

Here's Hecker's list:
4 Lion’s eye Diamond
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting

Side:
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Coffin Purge
4 Nature’s Claim
1 Purify the Grave
1 Ray of Revelation
3 Tarnished Citadel

I really like that list from Eternal Weekend. It's a VERY streamlined maindeck and the SB seems to be quite good, I like tarnished citadel in the side to improve postboard games.

On not playing SB cards for crypt, leyline, etc. etc. Stop being awful and at least run chain of vapor or nature's claim, when I saw Prosak's SB I wanted to vomit. Auto folding to hate with a zero percent chance of winning against leyline is not where you want to be with this deck. Prosak just got lucky in facing no resistance at all throughout the tournament, and when you face zero hate cards with dredge it should be a cakewalk.

I see no reason to run without lion's eye diamond. Especially when I look at this Eternal Weekend list; you can't say that that SB is cold to hate, quite the opposite in fact. And the MD of that list is geared to combo out as fast as possible without durdle cards like firestorm or darkblast. Game 1, your goal is to kill the opponent as fast as possible before they can potentially stabilize if you lose game 1 to a scavenging ooze, you're doing something wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Matt

So many developments in dredge.. where to begin? So both Adam Prosak and Richard Feldman expressed their distaste for anti-hate. And when pros talk, I listen. I haven't seen anyone really take this into consideration.. They make really compelling arguments. First of all, predicting the opponents hate game 2 is often impossible, which either results in us randomly sticking anti-hate into our MD or ignoring it till game 3, which makes our anti-hate so inefficient. We could easily replace those slots with cards that give us an edge against bad match-ups, cards that we can confidently side in game 2. Secondly, we lose when we don't dredge, end of story. So occupying our first and second turns to situate janky anti-hate seems like a really bad idea, and a really great way to let the opponent develop an advantage. Thirdly, what are the odds of anti-hate actually being effective? (more effective than detrimental I should say.) With the exception of flashback effects, the odds are extremely slim that you'll rip a Chain of Vapor out of 60 and you're opponent will simultaneously rip a Leyline out of 60.

Leyline sucks, in a real personal way for us dredge players, but is it reason enough to devote half of our sideboards? I've been play testing LED-dredge without dedicated anti-hate, and I think I like it. I'll be upfront with you, you'll scoop to Leyline and Cage, perhaps Wheel of Sun and Moon too, if you get a slow start. The thing is, they will only be running a play set of one of these at the very most. Meaning, if we utilize dredge, which shouldn't be hard with the addition of Faithless Looting, we should easily take game 1. Then we just need to win either game 2 or 3. The odds of them ripping their anti-hate, 4 in 60, is extremely slim. And even if they do, we have another game where we're once again saying, "Defy probability by drawing another leyline or gg." I should also add, there's obviously more hate out there than Leyline, Cage, and Sun -n- Moon, but the rest is manageable, especially in a deck that's peaking in efficiency and speed by not being diluted with ineffective counter-hate.

They also mentioned Ichorids being amazing, sequentially always running 4 between MD and SB. Richard emphasized the importance of running 4 MD Cabal, and Adam admitted that only running three was probably incorrect. Richard also emphasized the importance of utilizing our dredgers, saying only three 4-6 dredgers were printed, and we should max out on them. (goes along with the "we lose when we don't dredge" spiel.)

For those of you that already read the articles, sorry for the repeat, but what do you guys think about all this? The last points seems pretty straight forward but I'm so intrigued with the notion of ignoring hate. Don't get me wrong, there's cards that work against bad match-ups and double as anti-hate, such as Ancient Grudge or Faerie Macabre, which are both in my side. But, their advantage comes from their ability to broadly answer big problems for us, in a very meaningful way. Also, I know meta would factor in a lot here, but regardless, is it worth slipping behind to try to answer possible hate or better to elevate your deck to the next level with consistency, speed, and practical sideboarding?

Adam's article: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l..._Straight.html

Richard's article: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...Dredge_Fu.html

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I've learned to take the star city games articles with a grain of salt. After reading an article that explained why dredge was the best deck in the format, channelfireball released a win % breakdown of the most recent legacy events. Dredge finished around 30% and well below any other archetype. It turns out the meta was very tilted against dredge (even though the article claimed it was unstoppable). The same can be seen of standard decks; it is easy to find articles claiming deck x is nigh unbeatable, only for it to finish at the bottom in power-rankings.

Regarding whether to dump hate in dredge, Prosak noted that he faced limited hate (surgical extraction and crypt mostly). With dredge having recent placings, the meta may see many more wheels and leylines. The article states that if you expect to see this type of hate you should not be playing dredge (which I would agree with). Yet, all of this can shift locally, and it can be difficult to predict exactly what hate people will be playing. Thinking there won't be much enchantment hate, and then hitting leylines all day may lead you to the conclusion "well, I should not have played dredge today", but it isn't going to help you win the current games.

The real question is what % of games will you hit a wheel or leyline. And what would be your % of winning with and without enchantment hate.

Concerning the odds of SB material, the odds of seeing a card in your opening 7 are roughly 40%, and the odds of seeing it in a mulligan to 6 is roughly 35%. With most decks (especially leylines were SB'd in), pilots won't be shy about going down to 6 to see their hate. Assuming they are siding in 4 (arguably 4 is a high number...3 perhaps would be more appropriate), they have a 61 % chance to see it between 6 and 7. If they are willing to mull down to 5, they have a 73 % chance...and 80% if they are willing to go down to 4.

If you do not run enchantment hate (and your opponent knows it...which he/she may or may not), there is a good chance (70%) that your opponent will be able to find it games 2 and 3. This applies mostly to leyline, since moon and sun gets more complicated with mana and the ability to draw and play it in subsequent turns.

So going on the premises above (you do not run enchantment hate and your opponent knows it, and is willing to aggressively mull to find his hate), you have a 0% chance of winning those 70% of matches. The question then becomes what is the chance you can win a MU if you play enchantment hate. I have no idea how to answer this question, besides it is between 0 and 100%. It is not safe to assume you will lose the game; the % may be comparatively low, but it is certainly not impossible as is sometimes suggested.

In any case, we have a claim (do not play enchantment hate in dredge) that mostly applies to a single case: you will not see much enchantment GY hate. The usefulness of the piece of advice relies on the ability to predict two human factors; how many enchantments people will be running, and whether or not your opponent suspects you are not running anti-enchantment hate. Both factors will likely vary widely between location and time, and while you can attempt to predict them, there is no guarantee in success.

Note, I am not trying to say the claim is right or wrong; quite the contrary, I am trying to point out that the degree of accuracy of the claim will depend on human factors that are difficult to predict. The piece of advice is useful only insofar as you can predict those human factors that affect it.

Chuck2657, thank you for the unbiased feedback. I was just interpreting Prosak's and Feldman's articles. Trying to find some advice for the upcoming SCG Opening in Indianapolis. Great reply by the way. I hate it when people make hasty generalizations like "their articles are crap" or, on the other side of the spectrum, "their articles are infallible". Admittedly, I really enjoyed their articles and found a lot of it very informative, such as how to approach siding and how to beat certain decks/hate. I guess my next question would be, how should I gauge the meta? Strategies that come to mind are follow recent tourneys, which I've been doing religiously, and perhaps troll around the SCG Open prior to entering my deck-list. Any other methods or specifics on how to properly follow tourneys and/or troll are much appreciated.

-Matthew

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chuck2657

In any case, we have a claim (do not play enchantment hate in dredge) that mostly applies to a single case: you will not see much enchantment GY hate. The usefulness of the piece of advice relies on the ability to predict two human factors; how many enchantments people will be running, and whether or not your opponent suspects you are not running anti-enchantment hate. Both factors will likely vary widely between location and time, and while you can attempt to predict them, there is no guarantee in success.

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Enchantment graveyard-based hate isn't all a Dredge player needs to worry about against some match-ups. Enchantress runs Elephant Grass, some other decks run Humility and Moat, and obviously having an answer to cards like Ghostly Prison and the sort are absolutely imperative for your sideboard plan. Legacy is filled with such variance that at any given time you could succumb to something random - including a deck using enchantments as a defensive tool.

I plan on going to the NELC at Jupiter with a very fine-tuned Dredge list. I went back to the basics and read (for the thousandth time) Feldman's article on how to play Dredge, even though I've been playing it forever now. The fundamentals are where it starts; I just think that over the course of time sideboards need to adjust depending on how the overall meta looks. I don't think a condensed meta would be nearly as ready for a deck like Dredge as a wider variety of pilots would be at something like a SCG Open, which is kind of an anomaly due to Prosak's recent win.

His list, however, was faulted in so many different places that it's obvious at this point he acknowledges what had happened. However, I find it curiously odd that in his article he talks about how poor he has been playing recently and retroactively decides to pickup an extremely difficult deck to play and gorge it down people's throats - with no anti-hate what so ever.