[Deck] Elves Combo

@ Nilla Pac - I did indeed win a mox in Saturday's side event. Report incoming. Some very crazy things happened. Also I had a rematch with Dan M on Lands again in Sunday's side event. He got me real good. Cursed Totem gives me a :cry:. I await the rubber match.

@ .Ix - the blue splash looks interesting. I'm pretty conservative when it comes to decklist changes to this deck in particular. I'll be a scrub and wait for somebody else to do well with a blue splash before I give it any real merit.

The problem when it comes to deck construction with this genre of elf deck is that in practice, once you get the combo going, however you do that, you can really run any config you want. Glimpse resolves? Okay. I'll draw X cards. At this point, does it matter that I haven't Min/Maxed on the number of Priest or whatever in the deck? No. It doesn't really matter. I'm going infinite so I can play whatever. And everybody who looks at my list afterwards can sit and wonder if this is the next big thing.

But variance is a huge part of this game. And any list that does well enough for you to see on the internet had a pilot who ran well that day. Luck is a thing guys. So a list could be subpar and still top 8 here or there. That doesn't really tell us much about what is the optimal list for this deck. Only once I see similar looking lists start to pop up over and over again will I raise my head and think "okay, maybe this crazy change doesn't suck".

So take it all with a grain of salt and don't forget to untap your Nettle Sentinels.

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Originally Posted by danyul

@ Nilla Pac - I did indeed win a mox in Saturday's side event. Report incoming. Some very crazy things happened. Also I had a rematch with Dan M on Lands again in Sunday's side event. He got me real good. Cursed Totem gives me a :cry:. I await the rubber match.

@ .Ix - the blue splash looks interesting. I'm pretty conservative when it comes to decklist changes to this deck in particular. I'll be a scrub and wait for somebody else to do well with a blue splash before I give it any real merit.

The problem when it comes to deck construction with this genre of elf deck is that in practice, once you get the combo going, however you do that, you can really run any config you want. Glimpse resolves? Okay. I'll draw X cards. At this point, does it matter that I haven't Min/Maxed on the number of Priest or whatever in the deck? No. It doesn't really matter. I'm going infinite so I can play whatever. And everybody who looks at my list afterwards can sit and wonder if this is the next big thing.

But variance is a huge part of this game. And any list that does well enough for you to see on the internet had a pilot who ran well that day. Luck is a thing guys. So a list could be subpar and still top 8 here or there. That doesn't really tell us much about what is the optimal list for this deck. Only once I see similar looking lists start to pop up over and over again will I raise my head and think "okay, maybe this crazy change doesn't suck".

So take it all with a grain of salt and don't forget to untap your Nettle Sentinels.

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Daniel, congrats on your recent string of successes! I totally agree with your sentiments. Sometimes people have good luck on the day of the tournament and can top 8 despite a sub-optimal list. I'd like to point to the weekend of GP Denver and SCG Columbus. Despite being experienced elf players, there's a reason why Matt Nass, LSV, and Riley Curran all did well. They each ran a very similar 75. Moreover, the copycat method proved that list was strong because elves became a DTB shortly with other players following suit. While I'm not saying the blue splash or vengevine plan from BoM7 is right/wrong, I just think there needs to be a bigger sample size first.

Yo ... Daniel, thx for the welcome. I need something fresh after rocking TES now for more than a year and currently hating to sausage-jockey the blue hoodboy in control. :)

A) Has anyone made up his mind about the numbers of Crop Rotations or Cradles here? I once stopped toying around with elves back then with the Staff of Domination/Priest interaction and am not up to date.

b) Additionally I'm curious about Quirion Ranger still being a staple without Priests/Archdruids to untap and the desired Cradle in play. I see the application of being a substitute-Nettle Sentinel in mid-Glimpse-combo but aside from that the Ranger is a very miserable card and I don't think it's too healthy for the decks average performance to dedicate so many spots for the Glimpse Combo alone.

c) are Glimpse, NO and GSZ currently enough gas and/or enabler to shift the gameplan in the current meta or should I expect bricking (or durdling with Symbiote/Visionary for turns) in case the said 3 cards get countered/discarded?

@ nudon - Thanks man. We'll see if anybody else can make the blue splash work. I think it would be fun to play.

@ Lemnear -

A) I personally run 3 Cradle/2 Rotation but I think most people go for the 2/2 split. I just like 3 because it's slightly greedy and I feel like I steal more games by having the Cradle than I lose by having too many Cradles - or a Cradle when I would have preferred a Forest.

B) I actually quite like the Q Rangers. They are maxed out to help protect us against Wasteland now that we run duals in addition to basics. The return-a-land ability is part of the cost so you will always be able to save your duals. Also the interaction with Dryad Arbor as a permablocker is not insignificant. You can surprise block people too with a fetchland in play. Also we don't run a ton of lands. Quirion helps to negate missed land drops by letting you tap a mana elf + tap a land, use Q Ranger, untap mana guy and bounce land, replay land, bazinga, 4 mana for Natural Order or whatever you need. Also, I win more games through Natural Order than I do through Glimpse. Glimpse is actually the best counterbait ever printed, especially when they try to Pierce or Daze it to minimize it's impact. I've had people do that and when I insta-pay for it and look them dead in the eye, they get scared and end up Forcing it anyway. Next turn the Natural Order takes the game. Lol I mean that doesn't happen all the time but it's a thing.

C) I feel that they are enough to get the job done. Any more spells and we run the risk of diluting the ability to efficiently Glimpse combo. And yes, you should always expect bricking. Expect the worst. Part of the fun of this deck is figuring a way out of a bricked half-Glimpse. Or trying to bait counterspells correctly so that you can resolve things that actually matter. Oh, and assembling the BFC (best friend combo) of Wirewood/Visionary is both super fun and an efficient way to permablock a goyf while digging for the last piece of your combo.

I just asked about the Ranger because I have the gut-feeling that it can easily be a Crop Rotation to achieve the same manaboost/Wasteland-counter in most cases. I will toy around here then the time is right.

One thing i have to disagree: The best counterbait in Legacy isn't Glimpse but Silence ;)

I played at BoM7 with LSV version of Combo Elves and I must say it is very good deck now. At main legacy event I had 6-0-0 after 6th round. Then I unfortunately lost to ANT and two Show and Tells so I didn't advance into second day. But those matches were pretty unfair. I always had one or two Cabal Therapy in opening hand, always hit the right card and then opponents always topdecked the same card and won from the spot or the next turn. For example I played Therapy naming Show and Tell. My opponent's opening hand was: Show and Tell, Sneak Attack, Ancient Tomb, Volcanic Island, Emrakul, Griselbrand. The next turn I flashbacked the Therapy naming Sneak Attack and opponent show me his hand: Show and Tell, Sneak Attack, Ancient Tomb, Emrakul, Griselbrand. Just a bad luck.

I am going to try the blue version with Flusterstorm and Spell Pierce in sideboard. It looks playable and it increases our chances to beat other combo decks.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I just asked about the Ranger because I have the gut-feeling that it can easily be a Crop Rotation to achieve the same manaboost/Wasteland-counter in most cases. I will toy around here then the time is right.

One thing i have to disagree: The best counterbait in Legacy isn't Glimpse but Silence ;)

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Lemnear, glad to hear you're thinking of trying elves out and welcome! In addition to what Daniel wrote, Quirion ranger allows for t2 NO into regal force/progenitus when used in conjunction with heritage druid/cradle. See below. Floating mana shown in parenthesis.

T1: tap forest(1), mana dork
In heritage druid scenario:
T2: tap mana dork and forest(2), play ranger(1), bounce forest to untap mana dork(1), replay and tap land(2), play heritage druid(1), tap 3 elves(4)
In cradle scenario:
T2: tap mana dork and forest(2), play ranger(1), play and tap cradle(3), bounce forest to untap mana dork(3), tap mana dork(4)

The cradle trick works with wirewood symbiote and another cmc1 creature too while providing an extra card via regal force. I definitely think people switching to 2 craterhoof are wrong. Regal force gives this additional line of play against removal-heavy decks. Post-board, progenitus equals gg against many decks.

I see what you did there with silence. :P Overall, I'll agree since good players may not counter glimpse depending how much mana is open and the number of cards in hand. For this reason, I'll bait with glimpse prior to making my land drop (opponent won't know if you have cradle/rotation in hand). If they don't counter, at worst you still have a great "value glimpse" to set up the kill next turn. On the issue of bricking, it depends on your definition. If you mean not fully combo out, it happens quite frequently actually but the cards you draw will probably allow you to win the game anyways so not a big deal. Those who don't "brick" aren't going for it enough. Moreover, glimpse provides additional value by untapping nettle sentinel (often relevant in a race with delver). Hopes this helps!

I never saw Glimpse as a full Combo enabler but as a green Ancestral Recall. Regal Force is the real bomb and I would rather run a second Force than a second Craterhoof and chain:

Natural Orders into Regal Force into NO+Crop Rotation into Regal Force into NO+Crop Rotation into Craterhoof/Ezuri

That's exactly how I view glimpse too. If you happen to fully combo out, even better. I personally run 1 force and 1 hoof but agree the second force is much better than the second hoof. There's nothing wrong with paying 4 mana for a 5/5 and 2-3 cards, setting up a kill next turn in the process.

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Originally Posted by danyul

@ Nilla Pac - I did indeed win a mox in Saturday's side event. Report incoming. Some very crazy things happened. Also I had a rematch with Dan M on Lands again in Sunday's side event. He got me real good. Cursed Totem gives me a :cry:. I await the rubber match.

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After he lost the match against you at Starcity, all he talked about was the Cursed Totem he took out of the sideboard before the event started. I'm pretty sure that's a permenant fixture in his sideboard now.

Nice job winning the mox.

Thanks boss. And I'll have to watch out for that Totem in the future. I so hate that card. Also, report up here.

Zombified Brainstorming presents, "Small, Green and Hateful (alternatively, fuck you, Storm)":

//Combo Elves:

4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Llanowar Elves
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Quirion Ranger
1 Elvish Archdruid
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Natural Order
2 Crop Rotation

2 Gaea's Cradle
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest

//Sideboard:
1 Progenitus
1 Natural Order
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Oblivion Ring

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zombie

Zombified Brainstorming presents, "Small, Green and Hateful (alternatively, fuck you, Storm)":

//Combo Elves:

4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Llanowar Elves
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Quirion Ranger
1 Elvish Archdruid
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Natural Order
2 Crop Rotation

2 Gaea's Cradle
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest

//Sideboard:
1 Progenitus
1 Natural Order
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Oblivion Ring

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Running Gaddock Teeg, NO and GSZ in a single maindeck still Sounds strange. Sideboard needs more Therapies.

Ruric Thar instead of Regal Force? Don't deviate from your plan to screw 10% of the decks out there. Same with Teeg. Stick to your own plan. That's what makes Elves strong.

I like having a utility Elf and Viridian Shaman is the best for Jitte and Chalice. I don't like Archdruid though. He's worse than Priest, which is the 60th card typically. Any argument for keeping him because of Plague is moot. Against Plague, we want to go for NO, not Archdruid. (Incidentally, that's the same reason why Decay is slowing leaving sideboards.) Plus, Archdruid being at 3 cc instead of 2 is relevant.

I don't see how your list is a "fuck you" to storm after sideboard. If they go off turn one, you only have two Therapy to stop them and that's if you're on the play. You need some Mindbreak Traps for this exact reason.

@Danyul- I use Darkblasts against Elves, DnT when im on Play. It can Kill Aven, MotherOR, Thalia, And in mirror Match it can stop opponents combo :) You can allso use it against Goblins and some Bants or Maverics.

@Zombie - I was thinking The same before going on BOM to put Ruric into maindeck. But its used only against one deck and wont give u win in same turn u play him. Putting allso Gadok is not a good idea. I prefere To have him on other matchups, and make more hate in SB than keeping cards like that in maindeck.

Instead of Ruric and Regal Force use 2nd Craterhoof. Hes much better, bcuz if u draw him and 1st turns u still have another one in your library to fetch from Natural Order. And somtimes if u played Gadok in 2nd game u can draw him faster to play for mana, bcuz u cant fetch him with GSZ or Order witch u ussualy side out while putting Teeg.

I allso tested combinatio with Archdruid... Hes much better than Priest of Titania or Eternal Witness... But still thinking on putting there Scavenging Ooze in that spot for Rug, bug and other reanimator and dredge decks.

This weeks at BOM in Annecy i played this version of Elves, ill list belove:

Decklist:
17 Lands :
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
3 Gaea’s Craddle
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Forest

31 Creatures :
4 Heritage Druid
4 Elvish Visionary
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Neetle Sentinel
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Bichlore Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Llanowar Elf
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Elvish Archidruid/Scavenging Ooze/Eternal Witness/ect

12 Other Spells :
4 Green sun’s Zenith
1 Crop Rotation
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Natural Order

Sideboard :
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dakblast
2 Mindbreack Trap
1 Natural Order
1 Gaddok Teeg
1 Progenitus
1 Qasali Pride
1 Dryad Arbor

Made 3 Legacy Trials Top 8: Legacy Trial 3rd place (8-1),Big Legacy 2nd place (9-1) and Big Legacy Paris 6th (7-1-1).

But still cant make my mind with this one spot (eternal/archdruid/Ooze)

@Lemnear
Yeah, it is strange, and could be that the slot should be an Ooze or something. But Teeg is autowin against many ANT lists G1, and can be a pain for stuff like Esper and Miracles. I do want a third Therapy in there somewhere, but I'm unsure if the fourth Thalia is the correct cut.

@igri
Yes, Ruric instead of Regal. People already have success with two Craterhoofs, so I want to test another angle of attack that is still aggressive but has different needs. No need for any dudes on the board, for example. Defends against Delver, Tombstalker. Screws over all the decks that rely on cantrips to work. He could prove to be wrong but I want games to tell me that first.

Archdruid isn't there for E Plague or the mana ability, but for the power boost. The rest is just bonus.

I think it is overall better vs. Storm. Discard slows them down, sure, but it only takes some things out. It doesn't slow the recovery process any. Prison pieces demand an answer usually, while making it harder to find said answer. In my experience, Elves needs a lot to start going off, but after that resources are ridiculously abundant. Storm needs much less setup, they can very easily just disrupt us and then win. Playing Therapy hampers that a lot. It forces us into a beatdown plan, which is fine, but then why play cards that kill our dudes and slow the beatdown? Thalia and Teeg beat down while gumming up the opposing combo deck's engine and outright preventing it from winning. Meanwhile we can play dudes and then Glimpse ftw if necessary.

So I believe the hatebear approach is better for those reasons. It is more helpless against nut draws and Belcher, that is true, but I think it'll probably end up more consistent against combo overall.

@Berger
I don't think Ruric is useful against only one deck. So many good Legacy decks are light on creatures, and their creatures are usually pretty small. Ruric is a giant brake on nearly everything they're doing, and a pretty serious clock if they do nothing. It's theoretical, I admit, but that's precisely why I want to test.

About your own build, if you don't have Ooze, you don't have any grave hate, it looks like. So play the Ooze.

I also played Elves at BoM Trial, finishing 7:2.

I played with a 2-2 split for CropRotation/Gaeas Cradle. Also I chose Archdruid over Priest as the 60th card and was really glad I had him. There were at least 3 or 4 situations where my opponent had to get rid of him because my on board position threatened lethal.

For example during my last round match, which was the Mirror, where we both wrecked our hands with cabal therapy early game and where i was on the beatdown Plan with some dudes. At one point i had glimpse + Archdruid in hand and my opponent cast therapy on me naming natural order, whiffed but saw the Archdruid in Hand in combination with the glimpse. Because a lord effect would have killed him next turn he had to flashback therapy to snipe the druid leaving me with glimpse which won me the game as well because i drew a creature the next turn. Of course that is only one example but it is my expierience that the pump effect will matter in more situations than you may think, especially in those grindy matches where you just need a few points more damage to seal the deal. Imo its really about that and not the "anti plague" argument. The cc3 compared to priest cc2 is not that relevant either since even on turn 2 you normally will be able to make 3 mana anyway.

I also played with Ruric Thar in the sideboard and i REALLY like the card. Obviously good against Combo if you manage to land him but where I also liked him was against decks playing a heavy removal suite + Delver like RUG + BUG Tempo. I'd even consider him against SnT.

Why the heck are you considering a High-cost-creature like Ruric-Thar a solution for Combo?! If you can cast/Tutor for him you can kill your opponent with Hoof instead of just durdling around.

Seriously, what's the point about the second hoof over the Regal Force? My limited testing of NO-RegalForce-CropRotation-Cradle-NO-RegalForce-CropRotation-Cradle-PlayingMyWholeDeckTurn3 never showed the need for a second hoof in the 75

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Why the heck are you considering a High-cost-creature like Ruric-Thar a solution for Combo?! If you can cast/Tutor for him you can kill your opponent with Hoof instead of just durdling around.

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Hoof is lethal only if you have more than three or four creatures on the battlefield. If you cast NO in second turn or if you have just one or two creatures then NO into Ruric is theoreticly better than Hoof.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Why the heck are you considering a High-cost-creature like Ruric-Thar a solution for Combo?! If you can cast/Tutor for him you can kill your opponent with Hoof instead of just durdling around.

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Obviously the goal here is to NO on turn 2 via Cradle/Heritage into Ruric, in which case Hoof wouldn't be nearly lethal but Thar is gg on the spot.