I play bant and I thought of using ulvenwald.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForlornEgoist
But these rock, maverick, and bant lists are so tight, its difficult to play ulvenwald. If you need to add any other card, ulvenwald is usally the first to go.
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I play bant and I thought of using ulvenwald.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForlornEgoist
But these rock, maverick, and bant lists are so tight, its difficult to play ulvenwald. If you need to add any other card, ulvenwald is usally the first to go.
I *DO* know I'm repeating myself, but anyone remembers when cards like vindicate (now, pulse) and pernicious deed were all the answers we needed?
It was just a moment of nostaly.
I always thought pernicious deed was good. I did think pulse was always better than vindicate because I didn't care for the mana destroy route.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sughayyer
Welcome back.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForlornEgoist
I'd like to point out that Tracker can be (please pardon my speech) F*****G AWESOME! I've been running him since AVR has been legal and I haven't thought about taking him out except when he was a concept. It is in the board though; mainly because it's terrible against control and combo ...except Elves.
I'd recommend using GSZ (You probably are already so this is probably a pointless statement) as multiples aren't as good as they may seem and looking to pull into a 1-of isn't too thrilling either.
Well, when I first looked at my opponent using him I did a double take; "Uh, yeah, sure, seems like a legit GSZ target." [/sarcasm] However, after I started doing some playtesting I started to realize the possibilities for him. Not only can he act like removal on a stick, he can be an extra way to force my opponent to use Mom triggers, etc. I've opted, like you, to keep him in the board as he seems to be a good ideal for certain circumstance.
Although, an issue I'm having getting back into Rock is the same issue I had a year ago wherein I was struggling to find the perfect mix between SFM and GSZ. Its difficult when I want to run 1 Qasali/1 Goyf/1 Terravore/etc. but also realize the necessity of a SFM toolbox.
Forlorn Egoist
Why not ZoidbergQuote:
Originally Posted by ForlornEgoist
...as a starting point.
Ulvenwald Tracker had been very good, and I used him to great effect tonight. Negating Thalia's First Strike is pretty great, especially if she has a Jitte equipped. Mowing down small guys, forcing Knights to fight and die, forcing Mom activations, etc. were all stellar this evening, especially for baiting them into other removal spells. It lets your big guys do work and take out chump blockers.
All in all, it's been stellar.
-Matt
So I have been testing Quirion Dryad (as I don't have any Goyfs or Scavenging Oozes), I like it, running it alongside Darkblast gives you a cheap way to pump Dryad and all the cheap Discard and Lingering Souls in the deck help as well
I have also been testing a singleton GSZ, with Bob's help this card gets in my hand often enough that I think 1 is the perfect fit as it just tutors for the threat I need (Either Dryad or Knight Of The Reliquary).
Has anyone tested Sorin, Lord Of Innistrad? When he hits the board he seems good pumping Lingering Souls and gaining you some life, but I keep flipping him off a Bob and losing 4 hurts really bad :frown:
Self promotion always draws a critical eye from the wary. However, the advice is legitimate, I know it's not borne of ego, and the delivery was impeccable. I approve! :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by damionblackgear
Moving on! Uvenwald sounds like a "test it before you bash it" kind of card. Honestly, I'm not sure I can even test it, given that I have only 2 GSZ and my only flex slots are the 6 that I'm currently splitting between Dark Confidant and Tarmogoyf (I'm gonna take 3/3 for a spin. I know it's a sin, but with my deck now playing fewer threats, my threat quality must be higher).
To be honest, I think Tracker would be much better in Bant. They lack the wide and awesome array of removal that we have access to. And their counterspells are less effective than our discard in handling creatures.
But you should still try it before you knock it.
-Matt
I personally like the idea of using Ulvenwald Tracker. Most times my opponent will try to remove or keep it off the field, and I don't mind them wasting some removal on it for some of the bigger guys. If it stays, then generally landing another creature of relevant size gives you board control.
Scrubbed out (1-3) playing Ian's version. Made some bad calls on 2 games. Against Goblins on the play, I first turn SFM getting Jitte (had Batterskull in my hand). Opponent had turn one Vial. I had Pulse in my hand, but decided to use the SFM's ability to put Batterskull into play. He then Pyrokenisis and put out goblins each turn using Vial. Not detonating Vial cost me the game.
I do not understand. If he shot your token, just bounce and replay it. It may take a few turns, but Stoneforge can block Lackey. Sounds like he can't get so far ahead that Batterskull can't bring you back!Quote:
Originally Posted by Angels
@ daimon: It just clicked for me that you played only 3 Knight of the Reliquary, with 2 GSZ. Ever feel like you were shortchanging yourself on possibly the best card in the deck?
@Miri, Can you blame me for promoting my list? It's pretty much what he asked for. I just always advise it's a starting point. Not a locked in stone list.
On your other question - I've rarely had issue with 3 knights and 2 Zenith. The Zenith and SFM are packages introduced to create randomness into the opponents options. I'm starting to think of dropping one package for the discard. With so many SnT decks, discard is better but I may be able to find room in the board to change packages as need be. Whatever I do, it won't be in time for SCG Minneapolis. So, I'll be running either this, Bug, or Bant. We'll see which at the player meeting.
I think 3 Knights is the right number, I say maybe drop Zenith for more disruption I tend to run 1, sometimes I think it is to much as I can only tutor a few creatures with itQuote:
Originally Posted by damionblackgear
Honestly nothing is better than turn 1 Hymn against a SnT deck, you either bait a force (causing them to lose 2 card) or hit 2 cards.
Here's the list I won last night's Legacy with:
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Sylvan Library
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Green Sun's Zenith
--Sideboard--
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Duress
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Choke
2 Timely Reinforcements
Round 1: Duncan with Mono Black Aggro
Duncan is new to Legacy and decided to attend his first sanctioned tournament! Hooray! Unfortunately, Mono Black Demon of Death's Gate combo deck is great at the kitchen table, but Junk just has the answers. I ripped apart his hand Game 1, then Wastelanded him off of Lake of the Dead, and quickly followed with Knight and Goyf. He died.
I didn't board, and he landed turn 2 Demon of Death's Gate. I had Swords, and then killed him quickly. The round was about 7 minutes long.
1-0
Round 2: Nixon with RUG Delver
I know Nixon is on RUG, so I keep a strong hand with discard and Goyf. I crush his creatures, Wasteland him off Green, and then proceed to beat with Knight. He doesn't have answers fast enough and I play around Daze and Spell Pierce.
Board in: +2 Timely Reinforcements, +2 Choke, +1 EE
Board out: -1 Garruk Relentless, -3 Maelstorm Pulse, -1 Ulvenwald Tracker (incorrect, should have boarded out a Thoughtseize)
In Game 2, he has the perfect hand with a Turn 1 Delver into turn 2 Mongoose, and I'm curving into Inquisition --> Sylvan Library. Library resolves, but I need to take an extra card to get a Goyf in play. I misplay when I'm at 3 mana. I had mana to play Timely Reinforcements or to just Swords his Delver and keep mana open for Pierce. I go for Timely, since I don't have much time, and I get Dazed out of the game. Had I Swords and waited for the extra mana, I think I may have pulled out. Oh well.
In Game 3, I have to mull to a 5 card hand consisting of Maze, Bayou, Tarmogoyf, Wasteland, and Inquisition. I keep, and go Bayou --> Inquisition and take Brainstorm. He drops Volc and Ponders. I wasteland. He drops Delver, I drop Maze. I then drop Goyf and play Arbor. We get into a bit of stalemate when I draw Knight. I drop Knight and eventually the board becomes my Knight and Goyf versus Goyf, Mongoose, and flying Delver. I start getting on the Wasteland plan when he has Mind Harness. Frick. Luckily, I Engineered Explosives on X=1 and blow that plan away. He drops another Goyf and we enter a stalemate. I attack with Knight for 8 damage while I'm at 11. He drops to 11, and he counters 2 Timely Reinforcements and my Choke. Damn.
So, the board gets the point where he's on a 3/2 Delver, and two 6/7 Tarmogoyfs. I have dropped Ooze the turn before, so I'm at Ooze, Goyf, and Knight at an 8/8 still, but tapped. He Wastelands my Maze, so I block Goyf to Goyf, and Ooze to Goyf in case he has Bolt. I drop to 8, and my Ooze dies. I have an active Wasteland, so on my turn I drop Bob, then Wasteland my Bayou to pump Knight to 11/11 with his one card in hand. I go in for lethal. He has the Bolt :cool:
2-0
Round 3: Ed with Esper Delver
Game 1, I get Top online and crush his deck with basic lands, well timed Fetches, and Knights. He never gets board presence since I blow up all the things. He dies horribly.
Board in: +1 Gaddock Teeg, +2 Choke,
Board out: -1 EE (I knew he wasn't playing Souls), -2 Thoughtseize
We go back and forth int he early game, trading Swords to Plowshares for creatures. I land Sylvan and pump all that life into cards. He tries to stabilize, but I drop Goyf, Teeg, and and Tracker. He Perishes them away to get a 3-for-1, then drops Batterskull the next turn with 0 mana open, but two cards. I Sylvan into an Inquisition and draw it and a Swamp. I Inquistion to check for Force, and I take the pitch card, then Pulse the Batterskull. He hardcasts Force on my next Knight, but I drop Ooze. Ooze cleans up, but Snapcaster comes out to play while I have no mana up. I swords that. He paths my next Tarmogoyf. I draw into Garruk Relentless and poop Wolves into an empty board. He stalls, so I Life from the Loam to Wasteland him out except for 4 basic lands. He stalls while I have two 5/6 Tarmogoyfs and beat him down from almost 30 life. Sylvan easily won the game.
3-0
For my troubles, I get a Scrubland that I put up for prizes. Cool story :P
-Matt
So no one even uses hymn anymore?
I don't really need to right now, and with RUG and such being so popular in the format, I don't really want to necessarily be into double black on Turn 2 against infinite Wasteland effects.
If Combo really ups the ante, I would suggest running 4 Thoughtseize 4 Hymn and probably more discard in the board. Or, running 3 Hymn in the board as your combo disruption, in addition to Teeg, might not be an awful idea if your meta is that way.
Ian, as much as I love SFM right now, I'd suggest cutting it with all the combo floating around. I know it makes your opponent go in many different directions, I just think it might not be as good as it once was, but this again depends on your meta.
As it stands right now, I'm not running Hymn at all, but instead 6 pieces of pinpoint discard in the main. I may up it to 8, but I'd really have to analyze my options and see.
-Matt
List from SCG article:
Maindeck:
Creatures
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares
Legendary Artifacts
3 Umezawa's Jitte
Sorceries
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Lingering Souls
2 Thoughtseize
Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
Lands
2 Bayou
1 Gavony Township
1 Maze of Ith
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
Land Creatures
1 Dryad Arbor
Legendary Lands
1 Karakas
Sideboard:
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Choke
1 Engineered Plague
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Rule of Law
1 Sylvan Library
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thoughtseize
1 Bojuka Bog
Cabal therapy is really good with all of the mana dorks and tokens, 3 jitte over some combination of equipment and mystics. Awesome Township for misers overrun.
In some ways, this intrigues me. Lingering Souls is amazing and Cabal Therapy is great if enabled properly. But I've learned the hard way that mana dudes don't really cut it in Legacy these days. With RUG always killing the mana guys for tempo advantage, Snapcaster providing control with 8x StP in their deck (so they'll always kill your mana guy to slow you down), and the deck running 8x 3 drops (and Jitte is approx a 4 drop), this seems dead to most of the meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
@ Converstion about Hymn: I play it. I love it. I don't care what it hits in their hand, to be honest. It's just hilarious card advantage. I won't play black (aside from combo) without it.