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Originally Posted by helvetios
1) You'll have +1 PTE which deals with Marit Lage
2) Surgical extraction can be dazed or counterspelled but in the MU you want it, you will likely have seen your opponent's hand before playing Surgical (Réa & S&T, otherwise don't fear daze)
Well, our meta is very mixed. A bit more delver/fair. My friends group plays a pretty decent test enviroment. ANT, Elves, Dredge, Infect, DnT, Shardless, Grixis, TA, Miracles, Reanimator, RG Lands, Affinity and i loan out my other decks OmniShow, Goblins, MUD, UB Tezz to play against. Other then that i feel that NicFit is on better grounds since DTT got the hammer. I am pretty confident bringing the Rhino list as is. As said before i am even considering of bringing this to MKM instead of OmniShow. Last year o brought MUD to Lille, but that was a disaster. Faced 3! BUG Delver decks in a row... while i made the call to play MUD instead of PFire NicFit on the last minute.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
Meta can be this or that, but actual matchups can still be sooo random.
Carpet of Flowers is very good right now. The card kind of phases in and out of the meta, but it's definitely in atm. Keep in mind that even if we are generally favored vs Delver, that doesn't mean that we're necessarily AS favored as we have been in the past -- especially with Grixis Delver, which I and others in the thread have expressed frustrations with as a whole. Grixis Delver is faster and more disruptive than RUG Delver, and the only way we -really- smashed RUG Delver in yesteryear was by running sideboarded Carpets and dropping things they can't deal with.
@Surgical Extraction:
Worth repeating, when an opponent responds to a Cabal Therapy with a Brainstorm, you let him/her resolve the Brainstorm and then with Therapy on the stack cast your Surgical targetting Brainstorm in the graveyard. You have now shuffled away the two best cards from your opponent's hand, rid them of the best card in legacy for the rest of the game and get to see the opponent's hand before the Therapy resolves.
Because of this, turn zero interaction vs decks like Reanimator, Tin Fins, Oops all spells etc, and the quasi turn 1 Slaughter Games I am always very inclined to put 2-3 Surgicals in the board. I've stopped considering Extirpate, but that's just me.
Woah, its miracle. This thread agrees on something? (Re- Surgical vs Extirpate) Cheers!
With which deck are you having trouble with grixis delver? That deck puts less pressure on your mana than Rug delver did. Its creatures get trumped much easier without a big dumb goyf out too. If I remember correctly @Arianrhod you prefer to abstain from removal spells of any sort. No offense but when you lean on deed as your only board control element then yes, you will have trouble dealing with delve creatures or sweeping pyromancer multiple times. If you play Liliana, pulse, decay (or god forbid that horrid abzan charm lol) you would find that you are able to keep the road clear.
(Note-This may be the differences in how we play the deck)
Also, against the therapy deck you do not want more ramp. you want more things to do as they will therapy your gas and leave you with mana and nothing to do with it.
In my part of the world they don't always board Therapy in vs Nic Fit -- they don't try to play the fair game that they know they lose, they just go for the kill as quick as possible. I also actually typically do have 3-4 maindeck spot removal options, coupled with a couple more in the sideboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom4ik
Realistically, I THINK that they're just drawing very well against me. I've played with and vs grixis delver as a test deck locally for other players in my area, and on average it hasn't performed as well as my tournament experiences reflect. Nonetheless, I remain cognizant that :
A: I'm not a Delver player, so I could very well be playing the deck like shit
B: my primary tournament meta (Mythic is the only major event I've been going to lately) is HEAVILY grixis delver. In a 60ish person event last month, it put 5 copies in the top 8, with a couple more floating in top 16. It could very well be that Carpet is too far for most metagames. For me, I would prefer that Grixis Delver be favorable to the point of literally being a bye.
@Arianrhod- This is with Junk that you are having issues with the deck? between swords/path you should be able to deal with the delve creature. Decay takes care of delver/pyro. You should be fine with enough of those spells.
What is actually happening in the games you are losing? Is it that you are playing spells and its just not good enough? honestly, rhino junk more than most nic fit builds should be heavily favored against grixis. That is why I am so interested.
If you really do have that much grixis its reasonable to find some SB cards to address that. I just wouldnt touch carpet.
With junk initially, and then with rhino bug again last month. I don't generally run swords or path, but I do typically have 2-3 maindeck decays + vindicate + pulse. Whatever Decays aren't maindeck are always in the board. Generally, the way the games go is they have a Delver or a Deathrite to poke me down with, then they set up a Pyromancer and just sit there not attacking for a couple turns because I have a Veteran out. After a couple turns of cantripping, stifling, wasting, Forcing/Dazing, etc, they alpha me to dead. Even if I somehow resolve a Rhino, it pairs it pretty poorly against 5-7 Young Pyro tokens when Deathrite or Delver has burned me down to 10-12 life after rhino trigger. That's not even getting into their reach with lightning bolt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom4ik
Including StP/Path would likely fix that problem to some extent, but I'm firmly of the opinion that even running those cards at all makes your matchups elsewhere weaker, and I would rather find another solution to the problem because there's always more than one answer to any issue. Deluge kind of makes me a little uneasy because you have to pay the life before the spell resolves, which can remove one or two turns from my clock if it gets countered. Golgari Charm is something that probably needs more consideration, but that card doesn't kill Delver and DRS.
Keep one thing in mind about Carpet -- while it's true that Carpet is kind of worthless if you don't have the gas to go with it, my builds have historically been slightly bomb-heavier than most other players'. Not many other pilots run Baneslayer, for example, although I swear by her. This is probably why Carpet has always overperformed for me personally, whereas it may have left others with a less impressed opinion.
If you have problems with Grixis try this little fallow in your Junk build: Orzhov Pontiff or spells like Golgari Charm. You can't ignore meta shifting, just adopt your sideboard or even mainboard. Don't play defensively, Grixis weakness is very poor answers vs trample creatures, as soon as you attack they will trade more tokens at once to stop Rhinos. With Probe and fetchlands their life isn't too good. The most important thing is to have proper starting hand will clear way to trigger veteran, so every hand with veteran + therapy is acceptable, proper naming cards in therapy targets is key to success:
- if they don't have mana open - FoW will be good target
- if they have open mana you have two options: stifle or brainstorm. Brainstorm can find stifle.. so in 70% brainstorm is correct naming (just like on turn 1 blind therapy vs unknown opponent almost 70% running brainstorm, and from psychological view brainstorm is best card on start to fix hand).
other cards which are worth naming is on draw when they stack deck with ponder - young pyromancer.
Also don't waste therapy when they have shaman out, first risk and play explorer - if they have fow - they still sacrifice 2 cards vs it, if they don't you can easily cast therapy and flashback it right away holding priority.
All games lost vs Grixis was because of greedy keep or mulligan to less then 5 cards (bad luck, it happens - don't cry on it, just keep going).
Grixis (at least for the Junk build) is a fine MU as long as you have ways to answer Gurmag Angler. That's pretty much the only threat they have that might be hard to deal with. For some reason I'm usually lucky enough te be able to flashback a Therapy to get rid of that sucker.
The deck also has a lot of trouble with having to deal with a lot of PtEs. A mana denial plan doesn't really work all that well vs. a 1 mana removal spell, now does it. The deck also can't handle anything with toughness > 3 and CMC > 3 (a lot of lists splash some green for AD), so that's something to remember. The lifeswing that comes with dropping a Rhino can also be quite the pain for them, as it often'll give you a Time Walk when it comes to their clock whilst giving you a bigger clock than theirs at the same time.
Getting cute with Meren doesn't always work vs. them b/c of their DRS (and Merens ability targets. Though not every opponent seems to know about that) but dropping an Ooze (if you manage to keep it alive) can be amazing. At those times it both stops their DRS clock and gives you a clock of your own (whereas DRS vs. DRS often means neither player has a clock). In those cases they need to find an answer fast or they die.
Also, if the deck is that popular in your meta, it could be nice to run a Dromoka. They can't answer it and it pretty much invalidates any clock they conjur up.
Postboard it's nice to have Golgari Charm (I usually board out 1 Deed and a Rhino, or something along those lines). It answers the TNN they often bring in without being vulnerable to Stifle.
@pettdan: I love the trick with Surgical Extraction! That's one to remember!
Thanks for your thoughts about Grixis Delver. Unfortunately, this is one of the matchups I need to improve. Last week I played against it, where I made the mistake to Abrupt Decay his Delver (was at scary 5 life) instead of his Null Rod (shutting down Jitte and Sword of Fire&Ice). That same game I missed a sac outlet for my Eternal Witness with Meren on 3 counters, which would have given me an „endless“ amount of StP back.
I'm going to face him again this sunday, so I'll post my results if something interesting is to be told.
It happens. A good friend of mine has been piloting Grixis Delver since halfway 2014 or so, so I get a lot of practice vs. that deck.
It might help to post your list, so we have a context of what exactly you're piloting. With it, we might be able to give you some better tips on how to approach the MU.
Trading in StP for PtE would be a first step. Looping StP is nice but looping PtE is better. PtE allows you to kill your opponent a bit more quickly and makes you less inclined to use it on an unflipped Delver rather than a flipped one.
I'm writing all this stuff down lol. Question though...why would you shave a deed against Grixis Pyro? If anything, wouldn't you want more sweepers? I'd be inclined to bring in Charm/Deluge/Pulse on top of the 3 deed in the main. Or am I going about this the wrong way?Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
What you say about Meren is true for that matchup. I'd probably SB her out for Ooze #2 or something.
Well, think about what you're trying to accomplish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warden
Vs. Grixis the most important things you'd want Deed for are indeed Young Pyromancer, but also True-Name Nemesis (post board). Now, keep in mind Grixis lists are known to run Stifles. Not all of them do, but some surely will. Golgari Charm (which is the card I'm bringing in) and Deluge both answer those cards for less mana than Deed (leaving you mana to do other stuff. Say spin your Top or cast another spell/creature) whilst not being susceptible to Stifle. When you blow up Deed into a Stifle that means you may have spent 2 turns and a bunch of mana (5 or 6, depending on the threat) on nothing whilst your opponent keeps advancing his board state/assaulting your life total. That's something you that you really don't want to happen, so I like to try and prevent it as much as possible. Also, Grixis has access to Abrupt Decay. That also answers your Deed if you can't blow it up right away.
Besides, like any other Delver build, Grixis only runs between 12 to 14 creatures (most of which can't compete with Siege Rhino and/or Sigarda). How much removal do you need? You don't want removal to turn into dead cards. Heck, I'd rather turn it the other way around and have my opponent sit on his Stifle, waiting for something that'll never come.
Grixis is also a pretty fast Delver build, so you need to be able to keep up with it. Not every game starts with a T1 Veteran Explorer and a T2 Phyrexian Tower, unfortunately.
I don't think taking Meren out is really necessary. 4 DRS is something we can deal with, we just have to be clever about it. Like any other Delver variant, Grixis is usually in a lot of trouble if they can't answer Meren for a couple of turns. You probably won't be GSZ'ing for Meren in this MU, but you can get her to work when you topdeck her. In the worst case scenario she'll just keep your opponents' DRS busy (meaning it's not killing you).
Took Scapewish to a 45-ish person tournament today, placed 8th after Swiss / 1st after Top8.I'll have a report up sometime soon.
Hey, today I played some games with friends, those are the results (keep in mind I'm new to the deck :)):
2:0 vs. BUG Delver,
1:1 vs. Goblins (that was an awkward game :D )
1:1 vs. Dredge (didn't have experience against dredge, I only played against it once, nearly a year ago, with my omnitell deck)
My list was the following:
20 creatures:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of clan nel toth
4 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of herons
1 Armada Wurm
20 Spells:
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Path to exile
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicous deed
2 Painful Truths
1 Sensei's Divining top
1 Sylvan Library
21 Lands:
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
SB:
3 Duress
1 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing needle
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Krosan Grip
2 Choke
2 Slaughter Games
After playing the list, a six-drop really doesn't seem necessary in this build. I'd rather have another zenith target at cmc 2 or 3. Does anyone have suggestions?
I'm a bit unsure about Dryad arbor. Maybe I just have to play with it some more, until I figure out all the little tricks it enables.
Since I haven't drawn Sylvan library, I'm still not sure if I'd rather play that or top. Top works perfectly fine, I just want to try out the library :)
The 3 Duress will be replaced with Thoughtseize, and the Extirpate will become another Surgical Extraction.
Does anyone have suggestions about how to make matchups like Storm, Miracles and Reanimator easier, or do you think there's enough hate for those decks already?
Edit: Could I fit Hymn to tourach in there somehow? Or doesn't it fit a build like that?
Also: Slaughter games feels really slow against storm for example. It seems i never get to four mana to cast it. should i just replace it with more surgicals/discard?
Quote:
Originally Posted by helvetios
YOu got enough creatures, i would cut Sylvan Library and go to 3 MD Sensei's Divining Top.
Dredge loses from Scavenging Ooze, that plus pressure thru discard on their draw cards or SB card like Firestorm and ofcourse Surgical. I would take Narcomoeba is NR prio with Surgical and Ichorid as a second. Flashing Therapy on Veteran Explorer takes care of Bridges.
Storm becomes better with DRS/Discard/Surgical and Hatebears. Reanimator is much the same, except you got Karakas and Path to Exile to work here. Also sometimes it is better to have Scooze so you can grab more creatures in the yard then they can dump.
Miracles, well don't trigger Veteran Explorer unless you gain a huge advantage from the mana and do not overextend so you keep pressure. Deed is you friend here.
I never liked Hymn in this build. I feel Hymn is more a tempo card and it works decent with Wasteland, which we both don't do.
Thanks for the tips!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
I'll definitely try the 3 tops :)
yeah dredge was kind of hard to play against today, but it was fun nonetheless! when I have more experience with the matchup it should be easier :)
okay, so you think there's enough hate for those matchups?
Ad Hymn to tourach: yeah you're right, makes perfect sense, i just like the card, so I wanted to ask :laugh:
Scooze, Gaddock Teeg, and DRS do the work against Dredge. Be sure to PtE their Ichorids at the end of their draw steps. Pernicious keeps you safe from zombie tokens if you can't exile their bridges immediately.
I don't feel that any 6 drops are that great in this deck, when you have 4 Siege Rhinos. Everyone laughs at that card in Legacy and then is wrecks them. I don't run Swagtusk anymore and instead just top the curve with Sigarda. If you're looking for smaller creatures I'd say Courser, Scooze, Witness, DRS , or Qasali are fine inclusions. Dryad arbor is fantastic. Don't cut it. There are too many tricks.
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yeah, the six-drop will definitely go. I'm not sure yet about Thragtusk, it seems rather unnecessary as well, but I don't want to decide that just yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by TTX
I was thinking about adding Wood Elves, but since i'm about to end my curve at 5, something like Pridemage seems more relevant. I'm also thinking about adding a third Deed.