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I'm tempted to give Titania another shot, in a BUG build. The problem with her in Abzan is that she competes with Sigarda for the 'game ending threat' position. In BUG she's probably better than most of the alternatives for that title. Might be worth a look?
She with Sylvian have make me a 5/3 army to win in one turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
This is not recomanded against Miracels with a Top on the battlefield. I will report back when I have try it out. :)
Now do me a favor and list what can go wrong when doing that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganfar
See you on the other side!
So I liked SFM to an extent, but every time I played it, it just felt like the power wasn't there.
I think I'm going back to the SE build, but I do have a couple of flex slots. What do people think about a package of 1 SFM/2 equipment? It's effectively 2 of each card, which is actually pretty easy to find with the selection/draw of SE. I did really like the equipment, I've had better success just naturally drawing them than tutoring honestly.
There's your answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Alrighty then. Let's try this. Never posted a deck list before sooooooo
Creatures
1x Deathrite Shaman
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witness
1x Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2x Tireless Tracker
1x Master of the Wild Hunt
1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2x Thragtusk
Spells
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Diabolic Intent
3x Punish Fire
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Pernicious Deed
Planeswalkers
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Xenagos, The Reveler
1x Ob Nixilis, Reignited
1x Chandra, Flamecaller
Lands
1x Badlands
2x Bayou
3x Forest
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Mountain
1x Phyrexian Tower
2x Swamp
1x Taiga
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wooded Foothills
This is my current attempt at a Jund Walker Fit list. I have tried a bit of Arlinn Kord but she just doesn't seem like where i want to be with this list so she got out for Xenagos. Looking for thoughts/comments and the such.
Ended up 5-4. Beat miracles twice! Rug delver twice (including gfabs only loss) and mana less dredge. Lost to eldrazi, storm, burn and d+t (who had all 4 ports out the 2nd game.) Full report on Monday when I get home.
Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
Only one SDT/Library copy main is almost certainly suboptimal. No offence intended, simply that this deck is designed to be the better/deeper "midrange" or "go over the top" of cmc 2-3 decks. Having ways to plan ahead draw steps, shuffle away poor future draws, draw extra cards in a given turn is something you want to see in every fair match up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naxochils
You can't cut all the manipulation, shove in walkers, and call it a day. You have to cut back some of your stuff in the creature and removal department to fit in all those walkers.Quote:
Originally Posted by from Cairo
-1 Meren
-1 Nissa
+2 Top
+1 Painful Truths
+1 Sylvan Library
Find two cuts and you should be fine. I might just actually say to cut Xenagos as well and run Vraska. Also, why are we playing Flamecaller? 6 mana walker that isn't fucking up life seems subpar. I'd say cut her, lower the curve. This way, you've got 2x 3-mana walkers, 1x 4-mana walker, and 3x 5-mana walkers. I think you're decently top heavy.
I did a heap of testing yesterday with Eldritch Evolution. I'm still not sure whether I like it or not. Sometimes it's broken, sometimes it's so-so and sometimes it just sucks. I don't know if it has to do with my own build or with the fact that I was playtesting with the most oppressing Delver deck I've ever seen that ran lava-hot all friggin' day.
Turns out Eldritch Evolution/Summoner's Egg Fit still is the Danger Of Cool Things it already was. It's beyond epic, but durdles like it's noones business.
Abzan Rhino Fit w/ 4 Evolution (instead of my 2 Diabolic Intent & 2 Painful Truths) needs a third Forest but runs like a German train schedule. Evolving a 1 into a 3 is both awesome and somewhat underwhelming at the same time. Evolving a 3 or 4 into Sigarda or Sun Titan (or whatever 6, Dromoka should also be a fine candidate) is epic. The jump from 3 to 5 is probably what we're most interested in, as the 6 is just showboating. Casting multiple Evolutions in a row is a busted thing to do.
Evolution also allows for toolboxing like there's no tomorrow. During the day I've turned plenty of 1's into Scavenging Oozes and a Qasali Pridemage here or there. It's also pretty awesome to turn anything into an Eternal Witness - Witness can be so backbreaking.
I also got to see Bedlam Reveler and Homonculus Something at work. They're both pretty strong. Reveler is pretty much just Treasure Cruise attached to a 3/4 Prowess body for RR. Powercreep, anyone..? It's just a matter of time before we'll be seeing that as 4-off. My buddy started out on 2 yesterday in Grixis Delver, but I'm pretty sure he'll bump the count once he realizes he can.
So there's my random drivel about Eldritch Evolution. About 6 hours of testing and I'm still not clear on whether I like it or not. Yeah. I need more coffee.
Greetings everyone! I will post my deck list, then the records on who I vs'ed and a quick breakdown of the match as best as I can.
5-3-1 was my record
Jund Nic Fit
61 cards mainboard
1 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Primeval Titan
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
Instant (6)
2 Kolaghan's Command
3 Abrupt Decay
Planeswalkers (2)
1 Domri rade
1 Vraska the unseen
Sorcery (11)
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Painful Truths
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dreadbore
1 Maelstrom pulse
Enchantment (2)
2 Pernicious Deed
Artifact (3)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Land (22)
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Taiga
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
3 Forest
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard 15
3 Red elemental blast
2 Blood Moon
1 Boil
2 Surgical extraction
3 Slaughter Games
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Big game hunter
1 Garruk Relentless
Who I versed.
Past pairings for 2016-07-09
Tournament: Legacy Open
Round 1 WIN 2 - 0 - 0 VS Mark Drahushuk (6) at Table 194 Eldrazi
Round 2 WIN 2 - 0 - 0 VS Ralph Rickert (6) at Table 109 Blue Red Delver
Round 3 LOSS 1 - 2 - 0 VS Joe Lossett (24) at Table 72 Miracles
Round 4 WIN 2 - 0 - 0 VS Gregory Foti (6) at Table 91 Burn
Round 5 LOSS 1 - 2 - 0 VS Ian Morency (15) at Table 91 Bug Delver
Round 6 WIN 2 - 1 - 0 VS Alex Barker (12) at Table 147 Black Red Goblins
Round 7 LOSS 1 - 2 - 0 VS Eric Copenhaver (15) at Table 71 Dredge
Round 8 WIN 2 - 1 - 0 VS Gregory Lallman (12) at Table 121 Dredge
Round 9 1 - 0 - 1 VS Matt Pruner (15) at Table 83 Black Red Goblins
Round 1 Vs Eldrazi
I am new to playing Legacy so this is the 1st time I versed this deck I must say I am not impressed...Game 1 went t1 land Veteran, t2 another land with veteran, my opponent was able to get a turn 3 thought knot taking away my removal. He swung I blocked got 4 basics on my turn green sun for Titania getting a fetch land from graveyard, and playing 1 from my hand sacing and getting my 2nd 5/3 token he got a Reality smasher on board but after that It was already in my favor I then drew 2nd Green sun - I casted for thragtusk and started to just attack he scooped on to game 2.
+2 big game hunters, + 2 blood moon, -1 top, -1 kolaghan's command, - 1 painful truth, -1 reclamation sage.
He plays land go, I do land veteran again, he exiles him with the warping, he plays land go I get the veteran off a draw with cabal in hand so I get to go off pretty good he does beat me down for a bit to I think 8 I have it on my paper sorry its late. I finally draw green sun and was able to beat a reality smasher, thought knot, and that eldrazi that costs x where when cast = power and toughness he had a 6/6 I almost died to it but I drew abrupt decay with Titania again shes just that good to seal the deal.
Round 2 Blue Red Delver
I don't have much to report here after you land a thragtusk and he kills it with a burn spell but Volrath's on board both games my opponent game 1 was able to pay for force 3x in a row but as stated volraths just ends games that need burn, so I got out of range I also was able to finish game 2 using Titania and getting the tokens winning. We spoke after he could have played grixis delver or esper stone blade which I think both are better than what he was playing just saying IMO.
Round 3 Miracles
So FYI Joe Lossett is the best miracles player in magic... I found this after I lost game 3. Game 1 land deathrite, my opponent plays a land and fetches.. I play land exile card and play Domri on turn 2. moving ahead I was able to get top down the following turn he gets entreat for 4 angels domri was so close to ulting to close the game out I was able to play a fetch and play titania getting triggers to stack I sacked got a 5/3 returned and saced again for another token. Joe rushed his angels on my domri killing him I was able to get Kessig and win he had 2 angels in the back for blocking. Game 2 and 3 ended the same way I was unable to believe that game 2 I drew a ton of lands no removal and I ended up dieing to angel tokens -_-. On game 3 I just couldn't get there I slaughter games naming terminus so he cant down side my thrun, I see in his hand Moat, entreat, brainstorm and after that we were bent for time. He ended up winning with entreat I don't know if I could have done any better I did not get my sideboard cards other than red elemental blast. In game 3 I did not draw anything during late game like surgical, green sun so it happens.
Round 4 Burn
Thragtusk, and Hunt master that's all I can say
Round 5 Bug Delver
I won game 1 same way as most just getting big threats Titania with a few tokens closed game 1 pretty fast, games 2 and 3 I drew a lot of lands and no threats against a person who just got the best removal draw for days. I think I could have done better because this is a favorable match up. I lost game 3 without seeing any removal for the goyf.
Round 6 Black Red Goblins
Game 1 went like land veteran vs a land aethervile I thought he was death and taxes, but when I played my cabal therapy naming thalia he showed me a hand of goblins. I didn't knowing what goblin to take I just took his tutoring one it was a 1/1 that can get a goblin card and put it to his hand. I got forest swamp and abrupt decayed his aethervile pass, he plays land goblin ringleader which is now my target for the rest of the match because he can just refill the hand by looking at top 4 and placing all goblins into his hand. I play land and drop down my ooze and eat the 1st goblin in the grave he shoots it dealing 3 damage. I pass he plays another goblin lackey and pile driver. I play huntmaster of the fells with a veteran explorer, I pass he plays land and shoots my huntmaster with a goblin tribal spells that has cycling. he swings I block the lacky and the pile driver taking 2 from the ring leader. At this time my life goes down a bit more to 13/14 somewhere around there I draw Prime time play him get volraths, and a land. I pass he plays land pass, I then untap and swing he takes the 1st hit going down to 13. He draws a goblin ring leader plays him hits 3 goblins and pretty much dumps his hand. and passes. I draw green sun so I swing he blocks with all I killed his table and green sun for titania and return a fetch and double fetch getting 2x 5/3 tokens. he scoops we go to game 2.
no idea what to side vs him so I put +2 surgical, - 1 top, - 1 deathrite.
game 2 was a bit more rough he plays land lacky, I play land veteran. He untaps plays a waste and exiles my vet using warping wail. he swings but doesnt trigger lacky. he passes I play land go. he swings and triggers him this time dropping a 5/3 goblin on turn 3. I had no answers he closes the game fast by dropping free goblins on the board.
Game 3 was long I gained a ton of life he had quite a few goblins but I surgically extracted all his ringleaders. I was at 26 life it almost went to turns. I was able to get titan and draw all my lands with huntmaster flipped and titania on board with 4 tokens. He had a lot of goblins and tokens at this point, I drew my toxic deluge deluge for 2 clearing his side swing with everything, he blocked with grenzo. I didn't know his cmc is Red/Black/X with abrupt in my hand I could have won that swing. I pass he just looks and says yeah you got it I'm not sure what he could have done at 1 life he conceded after his draw...I am not sure what goblins can do after.
Round 7 Dredge
I have never vsed a dredge deck so it was interesting. Game 1 I lost to the ichors, and the sacking not being able to interact with him because he was able to sac and empt my entire hand and leaves me with 2 lands from the 4 cabals that hit his grave. This was on turn 3 from all of his dredging. Bridge from below I relized is a problem so I note that and the green creature that dredges 6. Game 2 I land deathrite pass I was able to keep him from evening going anywhere I ended up winning with him not being able to get his ichors out because i landed a Ooze that got to 8/8 he was able to get an 10/10 but he conceded for the sake of time. He knew that the ooze would grow bigger than his 10/10 and that I was eating the things he needed. Game 3 I was able to early game surgical his green dredging creature on his turn untap play land, and a deathrite. He kills the deathrite with firestorm dealing 2 to him and me. the game goes back and forth I pretty much drew nothing to stop him at the end he had the 3 ichors hit me while I had a 4/4 thrun, he has 3 cards left in his deck, 3 ichors and he made 5 zombies from the blue creature sac, and 3 ichors he was at 8 I was at 9. I could have volrath the deathrite to the top of my deck but I needed a green sun to get witness to return 1 of my deeds. I made a serious mistake of not playing 1 to the table and it cost me because he was able to cabal me and remove it from my hand knowing I had 1, but I drew 2 earlier in the game...serious mistake on my part. I lost it in 3. he even said he was shocked we both mulled to 4 that game This was the 1st serious mull that I had to do to get surgical and lands.
Round 8 Dredge again...
Game 1 I won it pretty fast with a ooze, and a deathrite he just looked and said yep you win can't stop an ooze and a deathrite on turn 1 and 2 respectively. Game 2 was something from a fairy tale I had ways to handle his zombies his deck used that flayer creature the 4/3 that undying when a creature enters from grave deal damage = to power of that creature. well I had things in my hand but he "comboed" off and claims that the flayer + zombies from sacking creatures to deal 16 damage...I was at 18 I asked how is that a thing. I asked that because it entered but not from the "grave" they are zombie tokens from the bridge from below... I am new to most of these decks because well I'm new to legacy in general. I was already out of day 2 so I asked if he used this against others to kill them he said yes...but it did not make any sense I should have called a judge but just took his word for it on to game 3. I am on the play turn 1 deathrite pass he goes land draw a card for 2 life, draw another card for 2 life... pass I play land fetch, using deathrite I eat the land play deed and tormod's crypt and pass. He just goes yep what the heck do I do now.. he played a land and pass. I followed with land eat play Huntmaster and the rest is history he stalls for a few turns but eventually he just concedes the game from a flip huntmaster.
Note : always call a judge I was so shocked I asked friends about what he did, and all of them said he did a BS move. They pretty much told me he cheated.. the thing he did was flayer of the hatebound with zombie tokens dealing 16 damage to me.
Game 9 Black Red Goblins
At this point its all in fun I will not say much here but he crushes me game 1 with 7 goblins all having haste and the pile driver does a lot. Game 2 I just beat him with thragtusk and a volraths on board he didn't wasteland it, but he got my kessig. Game 3 I promise you if he did not stall or if we had more time I would have won -_- I had the game in my favor with Thragtusk on board with abrupt in my hand I needed kessig so bad! we tie sorry I didn't explain much but it played like the other goblin deck..we go back and forth but I will say I had this 1 if not for timing us and going to turns.
I had a lot of fun sorry if my grammar is not the best I realize a lot of you would like to read something that doesn't burn the eyes or your soul. I am not 100% sure how a report should go I hope this is OK if anyone wants to give me a hand with this id gladly accept. I always seek out tutors to help me with grammar because mine is terrible. Even at college level
I loved huntmaster 1 of my all stars in most games with Titania closed game right out. Domri is staying with top setting up great draws is nice. Some of my losses were just play mistakes, and bad choices on what the play is. The deck ran in my eyes good. I heard quite a few people during some of my matches saying how much they enjoy seeing my deck and that it looks amazing ^_^ always a relief to hear.
I would like to talk to Ulysse95 about the enchantment nic fit I have a few questions that I would like to know more about the deck.
Another gentleman came to me and explained to me that he was running abzan nic fit. He enjoyed seeing my deck, he asked me if it was scape-wish or punishing fire I told him its just Jund nic fit he took a gander at the deck and asked a few questions about card choice like Vraska who is a silver bullet for most things JTMS, Moat, and other permanents that need to be dealt with. I don't know to be honest I think abzan is stronger getting locked by a moat is painful, not drawing a green sun for rec sage, and or draw maelstrom to shut it off. I hear Sigarda is too strong.. in my case though I can fight lands with Blood moons and anyone not using basics.
If anyone has any questions please ask!
one last thing my friends were laughing at me for playing Nic Fit after round 4 which I was 3-1 a lot of them were already gone or x-2. I guess I don't get the last laugh but I lasted all the way to round 7 and got knocked out of day 2.
Probably, but it seems like such a bad answer. I'm cool with counting Fire and Ice as a removal spell, as well as Jitte, and a single SFM since it can presumably find one of the two. And a Batterskull is still a threat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I think that what I'm really looking for here is a minimal SFM package rather than the full thing. 2 SFM 3 targets to keep the threat/interaction count up.
I regret not making a list yet but I've been busy doing a mad scientist impersonation (as can be read in the Burn thread) and uncovering the secrets of Magic. Perhaps tomorrow if I find some time I'll try to create a list. I'm going to be out of town for a bit again, so who knows if I'll be able to play, but I bet I can get some test games in somewhere.
Which deck do you think had a home for Reveler? It basically has to be a red heavy deck with lots of cantrips. UR Delver maybe?Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I discussed it in some other threads and it didn't seem good there. Fueled by cantrips though I can see it.
I'm totally with you. I play jitte and batterskull as equipments and 3x sfm. If u draw one of your equipments early, sfm is nearly useless. Most of the time it dies before u can even use the ability. As u said, equipments are somehow great but sfm has no gas. These 5 slots can be used better even though I like the idea of sfm. Not quite how to fix it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
First, a thought to SF/EW fit players.
I've been playing parallaxe wave in my enchant fit list lately. It really impressed me while running it and tricks appears to me one after the other. A really good one is specifically benefic to you:
You use your wave and use one of the last counters on Eternal Witness (best if after blocks), then use the remaing ones on one of your creatures with etb abilities or other opponent attacking creatures. Then on your upkeep, parallaxe wave is sacrified and creatures are coming back. As E W whom can return parallaxe wave so you can cast a fresh one again. At least, you can immediately use it again to suppress blockers and free the way to your beaters.
An other classic trick is to use the ability on some of your creatures you want to save/trigger leave or enter the field abilities, then stack all the remaining ones on opponent creatures before cracking a big deed (>4). Deed is resolved, so parallaxe wave is destroyed; our creatures come back, then big monsters are definitely exiled. It a useful trick to manage drazi daddies, Griselbrand and other big shots.
Then, the last and better one, that I just found out while answering in PM to MysteryE:
In my list, if you have parallaxe wave, starfield and at least 3 others enchant, you can do indefinitely both:
-remove a wave counter to remove one of your creature. Resolve. Then remove a counter to exile wave itself. Resolve: wave leave the battlefield and triggers, bringing back your creature and wave itself (with 5 new fresh counters).
-remove a counter to target an opponent creature. While keeping the priority, you remove another counter to target parallaxe wave itself. Resolve: wave leave the battlefield and triggers, so it bring itself back with 5 fresh new counters. Then the first activation resolves, exiling definitely the opponent creature.
Each card is powerfull by itself. The combination is game breaking.
You were playing vs. Manaless Dredge there (one of my own pet decks). When in even the slightest doubt, call a judge. They're there to help you. The worst thing that can happen is that they say "Yeah, he's right" and the game continues. In this case he either didn't know how his deck worked himself or he was trying to cheat a win out of you.Quote:
Originally Posted by MysteryE
When you face regular LED Dredge, try to save your Surgicals for Ichorid. Without it they hardly have a clock. Manaless is a bit harder to stop since it runs a lot more creatures that ETB. Vs. Manaless you should try to keep your opponent from getting 3+ creatures as long as you can - 3 creatures + Dread Return + Balustrade Spy = kill.
As far as reports go, yours is a fine report.
UR Delver to start with, yeah. My buddy got it to work in Grixis Delver. Perhaps in Burn, so you can recuperate after having some burn spells countered. I can see this card getting pretty big. It's Treasure Cruise on a 3/4 Prowess stick for RR that can chained one after another, come on. It's even Lightning Bolt-proof and Abrupt Decay-proof. You could even try some RW deck w/ Eldrazi Displacer/Flickerwisps etc. Blink that bastard. Flickerform, anyone? Or some combo deck with shitloads of red mana rituals, Faithless Lootings, Burning Wishes etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
It'll take some time, but the community'll break it.
Small tournament this week-end, 9 players, 5 rounds.
Finished first with this list:
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Swamp
1 Wastes
3 Bayou
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Forest
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Reality Smasher
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 Matter Reshaper
3 Primeval Titan
3 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Obstinate Baloth
SB: 2 Warping Wail
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
Win 2-1 versus Enchanteress (thanks pernicious & krosan grip & Ulamog)
Win 2-0 versus Death and Taxes (thanks pernicious & eldrazi versus mother)
Win 2-0 versus Zoo (thanks thragcorne & baloth)
Win 2-1 versus Tezzeret control (thanks pernicious and TKS)
Loss 0-2 versus storm (despite I had very good hand at G2 but he killed T2)
Playing this, this weekend assuming my schedule works out. Sadly, I misplaced one of my GSZ from the experiment with SFM so I'm going to have to run on one less, and I misplaced 2 DRS so even though I wanted them in my SB I'll have to make a substitution.
Land 22
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor
Creatures 17
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Dark Confidant
1 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
Artifact 7
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
Spells 13
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vindicate
Enchantment 2
2 Pernicious Deed
I feel like this is a little light on removal but I think I'm going to go with it for now.
It's definitely not a burn card. It doesn't really work without the blue cantrips and the blue cantrips slow Burn down, even Gitaxian Probe slows the deck as odd as that probably sounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Just my two cents on some numbers:Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
4th GSZ can replace the 4th SDT. Flooding into SDT is a thing, with 4 that happens so much it is just gets annoying. 3 is really enough. On the other hand, GSZ is always, always a solid draw.
While you seem light on removal i wouldn't worry too much about that. Jitte and SoFaI are also removal and you run MD QPM. Although i'd personally feel more comfortable running 4 Plow (reach) and 3 Deed's (sweep).
Dark Confidant, i am very interested how good the card actually is in this deck, as opposed to say Sylvan Library or Painful Truths. However, Bob does give another creature to carry a sword.
1 SFM is also interesting. Have missed some content on this thread lately, anyone have some playtime with a 1/2 or 1/3 split? Maybe even 0 SFM?
Last, i would really prefer to see a Thragtusk in here. Siege Rhino is also fine, it carry swords to a champ and turning GSZ into Lava Spike is very useful at times. Thragtusk often has more impact to the board and can even stretch a game against storm combo or burn enough to win. Plus it helps vs Miracles.
The 4th GSZ will go in over something (not entirely sure what yet), there's no if's about that. I just need to be home and not traveling so I can search my apartment for it. It couldn't have gone far. SDT is the real engine of my deck though, I don't think I can convince myself to run less than 4, I'll cut a Vet before a Top because it powers up so many other cards in the deck and is so hard to get rid of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
That's what I'm going for, I'm hoping the equipment can supplement my removal numbers because that's what ate some cuts in order to bring them in. In general I like creatures in Nic Fit because I put a huge premium on just smacking the opponent in the face. My thoughts here though are that I can use some equipment in the same way, filling the face smacking role while also being removal. I'm going to try it atleast. I really didn't like the 3-4 SFM builds.Quote:
While you seem light on removal i wouldn't worry too much about that. Jitte and SoFaI are also removal and you run MD QPM. Although i'd personally feel more comfortable running 4 Plow (reach) and 3 Deed's (sweep).
I've never felt right with 3 Deed, I play too aggressive for it. Deed here is mainly as a catch all, I would play 0 if I felt my other removal were up to the job.
He's a staple of my CA suite. I'm the only one on the forums who seems to run him but I can't complain. He works great with Courser, great with Top, great with equipment, great with Tracker. My CA suite is pretty locked in at 2 Dark Confidant, 2 Tireless Tracker, 1 Courser, 1 Witness, 4 Top. I used to run 2 Courser but I'm letting the Sword of FaI fill in a bit because I had to make some cuts. What I like about Bob is that I get the same value as those other cards but I can also hit my opponents face.Quote:
Dark Confidant, i am very interested how good the card actually is in this deck, as opposed to say Sylvan Library or Painful Truths. However, Bob does give another creature to carry a sword.
There's a whole philosophy on deck building based around cards that generate value by being on the battlefield. Each one of these you add to a deck amplifies the other cards of that style in your deck, and those are the cards I try to stick to with Nic Fit. The idea being that I can overload my opponents removal. If they kill my Bob it just means they can't kill my Rhino, and if they save removal for my Rhino it means the Bob goes uncontested.
Complete experiment on my part. I don't know if I'll like it or not. Batterskull is next on the chopping block if I need to cut something but I like SFM being able to turn into a real threat.Quote:
1 SFM is also interesting. Have missed some content on this thread lately, anyone have some playtime with a 1/2 or 1/3 split? Maybe even 0 SFM?
I like keeping my curve low, 2 5 drops is already too much for me, but I'm allowing it because I cut down on 4's. Part of my Miracles SB involves bringing in Sorin LoI. I have so much CA that it's often times better to run a lower curve and try to play multiple cards every turn than one higher impact one. Also remember that I'm playing the deck with Bob so I have to pay even more attention to my curve. While Thragtusk is eventually life neutral it's pretty bad to flip him before I'm ready to cast him.Quote:
Last, i would really prefer to see a Thragtusk in here. Siege Rhino is also fine, it carry swords to a champ and turning GSZ into Lava Spike is very useful at times. Thragtusk often has more impact to the board and can even stretch a game against storm combo or burn enough to win. Plus it helps vs Miracles.
I thought so too, at first. I mean, having that many instants/sorceries in your GY should mean game's over, right? But then I figured it should help vs. counters (and lots of those). It also seems pretty need vs. Miracles. They don't have an 8 to CB it and you gaining 3 life (StP) for drawing 3 cards seems like a pretty sweet deal. It also helps you deal with Jace. I mean, what're they going to do? Send it back to your hand so you can draw 3 more cards? Lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
So... Has anyone else been testing Eldritch Evolution?
Hi all,
Jumping in on the "have been frequenting here for weeks, only just decided to post" bandwagon. I've been playing the deck a regularly for a little over a month, and have been averaging a bit over 75% win rate. Making changes as I go along.
Most recent is the addition of trackers and jitte (I have not yet tested jitte, but seems like a nice fit). I've also just taken out the deathrite, as I've found I never green suns for him. If I get him he's great, if I actively need grave hate I get scooze, and with 3 rhinos and a tusk life isn't an issue.
My main question here is actually regarding him. I've noticed he's in almost every list, but I'm not sure specifically as to why. He seems amazing on paper, and I've played extensively with him in multiples before and loved it, but in this deck, I've just never found myself zenithing for him (except that one time I didn't have a third land drop, or therapy). For reference, below is my list. It appears I've got some unusual card choices compared to what I've read about on here, and if anything would welcome a discussion on them.
Creatures:20
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Primeval Titan
Spells:17
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Lands:23
2 Bayou
4 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
Sideboard:15
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Grave Titan
2 Duress
2 Path to Exile
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
1 Engineered Plague
1 Pernicious Deed
First a couple of questions:
- Why Primeval Titan as your 6-drop? Magical Christmasland value when you have a Titania on the board (a 5-drop that can be answered by a single Lightning Bolt, by the way)?
- What's that lone Wasteland doing in your manabase? You plan to Waste your opponent after Primeval Titan comes down, or even more cute value w/ Titania..?
- Horizon Canopy - to what end?
- Just 1 Abrupt Decay as spot removal suite w/ just 2 Pernicious Deed to back it up?
- Your manabase is very low on initial black sources. This can seriously hinder your ability to cast Cabal Therapy reliably on turn 1, where T1 Cabal Therapy into T2 Veteran Explorer is one of the strongest openings you can have
- Your manabase is also very low on white sources. Sure, you omit the best card Abzan gives you (Path to Exile), but 12 white sources is very light for a deck that does mean to cast white cards.
- Your SB - to what purpose would you bring in Grave Titan? What problem should it fix that your MB has?
- Your SB - Melira. Is Infect a significant player in your meta?
To answer your question - a single DRS can severely fuck w/ Delver & graveyard strategies. So can Scavenging Ooze, but it comes down 1/2 turns later. DRS coming down on T1 can be the difference between life and death. The lower CMC means you might also get it through a Daze where Scavenging Ooze would get countered by it. It also functions as a lightning rod to draw away removal before we cast what we do care about and it can speed up your gameplan by a full turn (which also can be rather crucial).
I'm sorry I'm unsure how to quote parts of a message, so I'll try split it up:
Titan is a big tramply dude. The main use is getting tower+stronghold then spending the rest of the game casting the same rhino over and over. Or just returning stuff for value.
The wasteland is a remnant from when I ran knight of reliquary. Still good with tatan/titania. But if I know I need it, 1 ofs aren't hard to find with the amount of tops and shuffle effects.
Horizon canopy is a land that turns into something else once in the late game. Also a draw when you want two things of top, while keeping your top. Just a little versatility, but becomes painful if there is more than 1.
Yea. Again, things like that aren't hard to come by through topping and shuffling. You only need to see one per game game 1. You answer the problem things then keep pushing and they're the ones who need answers.
There are 12 black sources. I've never had explorer+therapy and NOT had the land. Normally it's one of the other 2 I'm missing.
I usually get a plains off the explorer. Otherwise 10 sources. Plus since I rarely need it turn 1, tops help.
Grave titan is a win more against fair decks, or decks that can go wide. I've considered replacing it with Dromoka, but 10 power on 3 bodies is too good. It's also a game closer. Happy to bring it in against miracles for example because they have to terminus for the 1 card.
Melira-there's 2 or 3 infect. But at the cost of one slot, I'm happy to put it in just to not get blown out, cos game 1 is usually a loss
Yea, drs turn 1 is amazing in certain matchups. Just the chances of seeing it turn 1, against those specific matchups is boardering christmas land. I absolutely see it's value. I guess it more comes down to is is better than a second tracker, or jit.
Tower + Stronghold aren't great in the face of Wasteland. You're better off with going for Dromoka or Sorin, Grim Nemesis. Both can pull you right back into the game. Dromoka stops aerial assaults and gains you massive amounts of life, Sorin draws you cards whilst killing your opponent and kills off creatures whilst gaining you life. Titan is mostly win-more.
I'd switch Wasteland for a regular card and Canopy for an extra fetch. It both ups your black count and plays wonderfully w/ Top, especially in the lategame.
You know how you normally deal w/ decks that go wide..? Pernicious Deed, and plenty of them. And some more spotremoval to prevent them from going wide. There's no need to run a card in your SB that helps you shit on already good MUs. That's just a waste of SB space.
DRS should be played as a 2/3 off.
Edit: And run a Sigarda, dammit! She's too good to skip :laugh:.
Yea, those are both fantastic and worth consideration. The thing with titan is he himself needs to be answered, as well as the lands he brings. With my own wasteland I can bring in first with horizon or something if I see they have one out, or 2 witness+titania getting the land back isn't an issue. And even if I can't, they've still had to answer titan plus a land. Go me. Alternatively, if it looks like he can be easily dealt with, plus they have wastelands, I just GSZ for something more relevant, it's the wonderful thing about toolbox. Worst case scenario I get him and get a canopy and a wasteland. Draw 2 cards next turn. And that's not a bad worst case. Actually the worst case is him getting countered and I get nothing, but that's the same as anything except Drokoma, who I've been heasetant on because like the knight of reliquery I cut, she's no immediate value. You're getting out a 6 drop and they path the thing. Advantage is the counter resistance and that would be a sideboard card. That's why I'm focussing on the two titans in that slot. Immediate value, plus a question to be answered. Sorin, yes. Sorin is awesome.
I feel like you need the wasteland. You have to be able to answer the lands deck, enemy inkmoths etc. I honestly haven't had any problem getting the colours. it's typically turn 1 fetch/play bayu and live happily ever after.
What would you recommend over titan? It sures up good matchups which could be redundant but is also great v miracles. I feel like with 9 hand disruption and 3 surgicals+scooze I've got combo covered, a lot of the elves and low cost dude decks you load up the extra deeds/paths/plague.. Maybe something for grixis delver. That decks a pain, but the problem is it's 1 slot, and the problem I have with them isn't that I don't have things that are good against them, it's that they counter all my stuff, including stifling the fetches. Thoughts? Maybe dromoka, who again, is only good vs counters because everything else paths or terminates her. Even miracles, being the main counter deck just swords it.
I agree on drs. One seems bad, running 3-4 is a consistent DRS strategy, and they aren't exactly bad in multiples. I don't know if that's what this deck wants though, especially considering the opportunity cost.
Wasteland/Stifle don't see play on your meta? That's unlikely. I hardly ever fetch a dual as first land. You just can't risk the blowout.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4554551//
Not to be a dick, but Titan folds to everything troubling Miracles does. @6 mana you have to worry about CB w/ Terminus on top and it's answered by the same Terminus/StP that answer every other card we throw at Miracles. It does nothing to help vs. that particular MU. Miracles is dealth with via combat walkers. Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, Elspeth, Knight-Errant and Garruk Relentless. Those are cards they can hardly deal with, so that'd be my first suggestion.
TES/ANT is hardly bothered by 9 discard & Surgical/Ooze. They just bide their time and combo out while you durdle. You'll need stuff like Gaddock Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist. With a combination of discard, hatebears and a clock you might get there, but it's still very unlikely. Know that and accept it.
Kinda missed a key question for that discussion there... (Unless I missed it in the text walls?)
With a 75% win rate, (over I assume more than 2-3 tournaments), what is your meta?
And J-bone, where's that tournament report dude? Senpai still needs to teach me how to best miracles.
If there's a possibility of stifle I obviously play around it. Wasteland doesn't bother me if I'm landing an explorer, otherwise you play around that too-depending on opening hand of course. If I've got 4-5 land opening, I'm happy for them to waste me.
I mean they can't deal with grave titan with a swords to plowshares (zombies are still a real threat), and they can't ignore it for more than a turn, and even that's risky. Sorin I'm seriously considering in that slot now that we've had this conversation.
Tes and ANT I need more experience with, reserving comment for now, though advise welcome.
Key question really is about DRS. Why do people use him, when, is he zenithed for and is he a big deal to not have?
4 events so far, all around 32 players, all 3/1 and better (4 round events). Meta is quite diverse, I've not played the same (opposing) deck twice in a night, or more than a couple times total. Though grixis delver and shardless are popular. Still can't really compete with grixis delver when they go crazy with the stifles/counters/wastelands in the first 2-3 turns then beat me to death with a pyromancer army or a couple delvers.
The heavy losses were tendrills storm (before I added 3 surgicals), and grixis delver, which I feel I'd still lose to. Miracles give me grief, but I think I'm making headway in that matchup.
Stp on Titan, Snapcaster -> flashback StP on token 1, block token 2 to death/bounce token 2 with Jace? Yes, huge threat indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4554551//
I can see you having trouble w/ Grixis, especially if you have the habit of opening with fetch into Bayou. Having more spotremoval and Deeds helps. A lot. Same goes for Deathrite Shaman, by the way. It's also something you need to learn how to play against.
I think pointing out a scenario where miracles has an answer to your creature is kind of silly. They can literally answer anything. That said yes some creatures like Sigarda will be more resilient in that MU but still something miracles can deal with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I think the real key is to try and best manage resources, overload they're removal/terminus while not getting blown out by them and as you said using planeswalkers.
That's the entire point. 45-something was under the impression Grave Titan wasn't answered easily, where it seriously doesn't pose much of a problem at all. That's a pretty big oversight if you mean to use it as an answer vs. a certain deck. If we can come up with the line I described, you bet your sweet ass a half-decent Miracles pilot'll come up with something even better. You have to think this through, not just think "Meh, this creature'll solve my problems" and have that be it. That's setting yourself up for failure. Think about what your opponent can do to you before running into it face first.Quote:
Originally Posted by Luthiereisfun
Why did the miracles player have a snapcaster and stp in hand still by the time you are playing titan? That card is the top of his curve so I would guess that other cards were played first and that the Titan is played after the hands are played out. In that case he is right, Stp does not help them because he still has 4 power. Even if he plays titan and miracles player uses 2 cards to deal with one how is that not worth it? Mana usage is irrelevant in that match up so paying 6 vs 4 isnt a big deal because you get the extra card out of the deal.
I would say that a bigger issue than Stp is that terminus cleans it all up in the attack step. Prime time is still the most busted 6 drop if you are going to play one imo.
Personally I don't think Grave Titan or 6-drop creatures are what we want at all in BUG. I have been doing some working on this (finishers for Sultai) and it's a bit of a pain, really. Our basic options are:
- Nongreen 6-drops that are scary, but removable and can't be Zenithed (Deadeye, CSphinx, Grave Titan)
- Green big guys that are resilient, but still fold to Terminus and are awful elsewhere (Sagu Mauler, Primeval Titan into Towers, Simic Sky Swallower, Thrun)
- Slightly smaller green guys that are faster, relevant in other matchups, but easy to get rid of in comparison (Titania, Chameleon Colossus)
- Planeswalkers that still aren't as good as Abzan's (Garruk, Ob Nix - I'm assuming you already have a couple JTMSs)
- Some other clunky wincon like Cunning Wish for Empty the Pits or some kind of Recurring Nightmare Combo
- Splash W for a solid finisher like Sorin
- Splash C for 2-3 Thought-Knot and 1 Reality Smasher
The solution I'm leaning towards is to forget about running dedicated finishers and just play a few ways of turning our dorky value guys like Witness and Strix into threats, like 1x SoFaI and 1x SoLaS/SoFaF. Baleful Strix with a Sword is suddenly a real problem and ends the game just fine by itself.
When I played bug I played strix/Snap (blue for md force which is why over witness) and no dedicated win con. Jace or the idiot brigade with a couple of Thragtusks and tar pits as well. Its usually enough. Bug nic fit plays so much different than junk colored versions. It doesnt use gsz and its basically just a control deck that uses therapy and veteran explorer as a mana fixer. In fact I cut some lands when I played it and added ponder. That way the curve stayed low and you just drew more gas. The delver idea of low land counts but vet makes up for that as once you hit 4 basically the entire deck was online. Havent played it in a while though. My next deck to play when I get a chance is Bug Things.
I think BUG should focus much more on control. You've got Strix/Wall of Flowers(?) that cantrip + Brainstorm which is fantastic card advantage. I haven't experimented too much with Eldritch Evolution but I really like the idea of being able to maindeck and tutor into both Vendilion Clique and Glen Elendra Archmage. Vet -> Clique or Baleful Strix -> Glen Elendra Archmage seem like cool options. Glen Elendra even better since she can evolve into Grave Titan and Consecrated Sphinx (which I think should be the only high-end). Multiple Jace TMS plus single Thragtusk to help round out the 4-5 drops.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
I haven't been online in quite a while but if I do end up with a list, I'll try to post it here. I have high hopes for the evo card helping with BUG. Maybe getting Clique into play at sorcery speed is only so-so. But GEA seems very good.
@square_two
I think Clique is probably a sideboard slot.
I'd be tempted to run something like this:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
2 Eternal Witness
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Shriekmaw
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Eldritch Evolution
3 Brainstorm
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
2 JTMS
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
8 Fetchland
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
I'd still really appreciate your guys comments on Deathrite.
Is he needed, how needed is he, is he ok to cut, or should he be run in multiples?
Again, on paper he seems very good. In practice I never gsz for it. And if you're running extra grave hate in the board, he seems even less relevant.
I'll get it tonight. Drinking and tilting on modo don't mix so well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
DRS is very good, this isn't a deck that operates on one or two mana sources. Every DRS that sticks is one less land you need access to in order to function. Every DRS on the board is also one more mana you can spend when you don't curve out perfectly. DRS is both a mana source and a mana sink, for that reason he's basically the ideal card at any time. The fact that he does this while also acting as GY hate and providing a clock is incredible.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4554551//