[Deck] Aggro Loam

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Originally Posted by apocolyps6

Is delver a matchup that you are looking to improve? I can't get the local delver guys to test against me any more. Are they all just terrible?

I think I'm replacing my deluges with 2 clasm. Or a clasm/charm split.

My semi-informed opinion about Fallout is that the uncounterability should only matter against delver/merfolk. Delver's counters are super taxed by chalice, knight, etc so by the time you cast you Fallout they should be out of interaction. Given that you specifically like the uncounterability, maybe this is not your experience with this matchup.

Jund Charm is also instant speed and has some trinket text. Probably not worth looking into, but I figured I'd mention it.

Declaration in Stone is hard to evaluate but is sort-of a 2 mana M-Pulse. If we are doing our LD thing or have a clock the downside is not a big deal. The card might be trash against grindy decks tho.

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Well, I want sweepers in mainly three matchups: Delver, D&T and Elves.
Against Delver Golgari Charm doesn't kill Delver and Deathrite, Deluge is dangerous against soft counters. Pyroclasm seems good here, but Fallout being uncounterable is perfect.
Against Death and Taxes Pyroclasm and Golgari Charm are probably the best options. The difference between 2 and 3 mana can be huge here.
Against Elves having a spell that deals two damage is important to kill Nettle Sentinel and Deathrite Shaman as well. Having a Instant-speed sweeper is also great here to mess with their Wirewood Symbiotes and Quirion Ranger - bounce abilities.

For me it really close between Pyroclasm and Fallout.

I might also consider Volcanic Fallout against Miracles and Shardless. Both play Planeswalker you can hit with Fallout while also being ok against Mentor and against Shardless Agent, Baleful Strix and Deathrite. Being uncounterable is obviously great here.

We don't really have that many cards to take out against Delver. Fwiw deluge for 2 is only two life and having it at least gives you the option to take out bigger guys. Personally I'm liking Sulfur Elemental because it's like a sweeper for Mentor and DnT

Tabernacle seems like it should be an option as well. I would even consider running multiple copies in the 75.

If anyone cares to watch some replay of the deck, I was on South Florida Magic twitch stream twice today. Beat Grixis control 2-0 then lost to Sneak and Show 0-2. Really missed having the containment priest out of my board. I think I am going to go back to 2 Thalias, 1 Priest. Ethersworn seems to only be that great in storm, and that MU is good anyways with thalia, teeg, and chalice. I'll post back with my SB and link to stream, just in a bit of a rush right now.

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Originally Posted by iostream

Tabernacle seems like it should be an option as well. I would even consider running multiple copies in the 75.

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Are there any match ups other than delver you like bringing tabernacle in?
It may just be a meta thing but it's always felt pretty lack luster for me.

What do you guys think of playing 1 Eternal witness in the main, substituting it for 1 Library.

I often find her very versatile in getting back removals or threats, even wasteland. Of course she is can be tutored by GSZ as well :tongue:

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Originally Posted by mike1987

What do you guys think of playing 1 Eternal witness in the main, substituting it for 1 Library.

I often find her very versatile in getting back removals or threats, even wasteland. Of course she is can be tutored by GSZ as well :tongue:

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I was just thinking about that on my way home, after losing a very close match to Grixis Delver because of just running out/milling important cards. Nothing to say that I'd end up not milling her too, but I actually like her a lot over the 3rd loam (Assuming schniggaz's MD from here).

StP's are amazing. I can't go away from them, they shore up so many random matchups that our other removal just doesn't kill. Not sold on the Crop Rotation/Tabernacle/Bog over the 3 Leylines, but I'll have to play some more to tell. Chandra was great, won me a match against Painter by actually being able to close out so quickly (and cast off their blood moon helped). Also helped carry me from awful, awfully sloppy play. There's a video available of me playing at Card Kingdom's stream tonight (round 2) vs Nic Fit, but that Game 2 was neither of us wanting to win.

Really going to consider the Volcanic Fallout mentioned here, I really can't remember the last time I've cast golgari charm for anything other than -1/-1, and I think hitting flipped delvers and DRS, at instant speed is even more important than being uncounterable (but uncounterable helps). With that said, I do want to squeeze one more red source in to cast it a bit more often. The sorcery speed makes Clasm feel unplayable to me.

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Originally Posted by Nocley

I was just thinking about that on my way home, after losing a very close match to Grixis Delver because of just running out/milling important cards. Nothing to say that I'd end up not milling her too, but I actually like her a lot over the 3rd loam (Assuming schniggaz's MD from here).

StP's are amazing. I can't go away from them, they shore up so many random matchups that our other removal just doesn't kill. Not sold on the Crop Rotation/Tabernacle/Bog over the 3 Leylines, but I'll have to play some more to tell. Chandra was great, won me a match against Painter by actually being able to close out so quickly (and cast off their blood moon helped). Also helped carry me from awful, awfully sloppy play. There's a video available of me playing at Card Kingdom's stream tonight (round 2) vs Nic Fit, but that Game 2 was neither of us wanting to win.

Really going to consider the Volcanic Fallout mentioned here, I really can't remember the last time I've cast golgari charm for anything other than -1/-1, and I think hitting flipped delvers and DRS, at instant speed is even more important than being uncounterable (but uncounterable helps). With that said, I do want to squeeze one more red source in to cast it a bit more often. The sorcery speed makes Clasm feel unplayable to me.

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I can see your point in trying out Volcanic Fallout but correct me if i am wrong, the main point of having Golgari Charm is also to deal with opposing True Name Nemesis right? Which volcanic fallout would not be able to kill. Not sure if it matters much but yea.

If I was going to play E Witness I would also play Volrath's Stronghold. I've never tested the former idea, but the latter idea is often too cute to be effective.

Golgari Charm runs double duty to hit Rest in Peace, Blood Moon, and occasionally Counterbalance. That's why I run it as one of my sweepers.

I thought pyroclasm is more of a substitute for toxic deluge, and not golgari charm? For the above stated reasons I would not cut Charm. Abrupt decays are very taxed post board to take care of graveyard hate.

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Originally Posted by rlesko

I thought pyroclasm is more of a substitute for toxic deluge, and not golgari charm? For the above stated reasons I would not cut Charm. Abrupt decays are very taxed post board to take care of graveyard hate.

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That is my take as well. I'm looking at the following board, and working through my plans against it:

1x Chandra, Flamecaller
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Golgari Charm
1x Pyroclasm
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Thoughtseize
3x Leyline of the Void
3x Swords to Plowshares

I'm not 100% on the board yet, but it looks right to me for now.

Also, to another post above and assuming a "standard" list, what are folks taking out against Delver? I really like the idea of bringing in a Pyroclasm and a few Swords, but have no interest in removing the Chalices. Skip the swords against what should already be a positive match-up, and do a swap of a Teeg for a Pyroclasm?

That looks like one of my possible SB for Prague.
You call it only Delver, but there are different Delver Decks around where you should board differently. Please just post a link (mtgpulse or somewhere else) with the Delver Decks you are thinking of ;)

My delver boarding is typically based around what type. I trim down my curve since our 3 drops are quite slow against their denial, and don't usually offer big advantages (even more so for the lists running Abrupt Decay). Teeg is great for shutting down their FoWs (and rarer, submerge)/being removal bait, so I don't cut him in that spot.

Assuming Grixis (which is the most common):
+ 2-3 StP , + Sweepers
- Karakas
- 1-2 Knights
- 1 Lily

For the other variants, its usually just the swords that come in (though I havent played against any other variants since the StP board plan), and probably keeping the Lilys (unless I see YP, which goes back to Sweepers in place of Lilys.

I could just be completely incorrect, I've gone back and forth with my board plans, but I've heard an argument for every card in our MD needing to be kept in against them.

Edit: I also shouldn't go off memory, since I typically want the Tabernacle/Bog/Crop Rotation Package when I'm running that in my board. I don't like bringing in Leylines if that's our Grave Hate. So that works for the above (and your given SB), but if I'm bringing in the other 3 I'll typically stay on only 2 StP, boarding out a second Lily.

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Originally Posted by Aberosh1819

Also, to another post above and assuming a "standard" list, what are folks taking out against Delver? I really like the idea of bringing in a Pyroclasm and a few Swords, but have no interest in removing the Chalices. Skip the swords against what should already be a positive match-up, and do a swap of a Teeg for a Pyroclasm?

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I'd cut at least some Chalices against BUG Delver, especially if they're on the Hymn plan, since they'll likely board into a deck that strongly resembles Shardless rather than a conventional Delver deck. Plow would definitely be good in that situation, as is Garruk Relentless. Pyroclasm and Volcanic Fallout are fine, but not nearly as strong as they are against Grixis, where Chalice is also stronger. As for whether it's worth spending a slot to help Delver matchups, I think it's a solid plan if we aren't hurting other matchups in the process. My experience is that we're 55/45 to 60/40 favorites in those matchups, and they represent a huge chunk of the field in any large tournament. The trade-offs between Pyroclasm/Fallout and Golgari Charm are the ability to remove enchantments and the ability to kill True-Name Nemesis vs. killing more nonsense out of Elves and D&T. Fallout is particularly attractive against Mentor since even if your opponent can save Mentor, it's likely to kill all of the Monks and let Mentor be finished off by Punishing Fire on your own turn. Which is correct probably depends on how the rest of your removal is set up.

I've had a 1-of Kolaghan's Command in my 75 since I picked the deck up, and have considered adding a second copy on a number of occasions. It's solid in a number of matchups, but it's an absolute beating against any deck with Stoneforge Mystic, especially D&T, and against Shardless, where it's a cheaper, one-sided, instant speed Barter in Blood most of the time. Has anyone else tried it?

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Originally Posted by Nocley

My delver boarding is typically based around what type. I trim down my curve since our 3 drops are quite slow against their denial, and don't usually offer big advantages (even more so for the lists running Abrupt Decay). Teeg is great for shutting down their FoWs (and rarer, submerge)/being removal bait, so I don't cut him in that spot.

Assuming Grixis (which is the most common):
+ 2-3 StP , + Sweepers
- Karakas
- 1-2 Knights
- 1 Lily

For the other variants, its usually just the swords that come in (though I havent played against any other variants since the StP board plan), and probably keeping the Lilys (unless I see YP, which goes back to Sweepers in place of Lilys.

I could just be completely incorrect, I've gone back and forth with my board plans, but I've heard an argument for every card in our MD needing to be kept in against them.

Edit: I also shouldn't go off memory, since I typically want the Tabernacle/Bog/Crop Rotation Package when I'm running that in my board. I don't like bringing in Leylines if that's our Grave Hate. So that works for the above (and your given SB), but if I'm bringing in the other 3 I'll typically stay on only 2 StP, boarding out a second Lily.

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I can't see how it is correct to trim knights against delver. If you resolve one, you usually get so far ahead.
I board all Lilis out against Grixis+teeg and a land for 3 swords and 2 sweeperd(usually charms).
against rug I just take teeg, arbor and 2 GSZ(really not sure on this one) for 3 swords and a sweeper(charms does not count)/bog
Against bug I still don't know what to cut, got to think about it, but I bring in the 3 swords for sure, and probably the sweeper

What are your plans against S&S? Feeling doubtful with the sideboard.

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Originally Posted by schniggaz

That looks like one of my possible SB for Prague.
You call it only Delver, but there are different Delver Decks around where you should board differently. Please just post a link (mtgpulse or somewhere else) with the Delver Decks you are thinking of ;)

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Point well taken, and yes, I absolutely took what you said to heart, and dropped in a Pyroclasm (testing) from the continued discussion here.

I'm mostly thinking about RUG delver for some reason, but should also be thinking about Grixis and UR. Someone else mentioned BUG. Methinks I am a bit behind the times heading into Columbus!

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Originally Posted by Pilhas

I can't see how it is correct to trim knights against delver. If you resolve one, you usually get so far ahead.
I board all Lilis out against Grixis+teeg and a land for 3 swords and 2 sweeperd(usually charms).
against rug I just take teeg, arbor and 2 GSZ(really not sure on this one) for 3 swords and a sweeper(charms does not count)/bog
Against bug I still don't know what to cut, got to think about it, but I bring in the 3 swords for sure, and probably the sweeper

What are your plans against S&S? Feeling doubtful with the sideboard.

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I'm really at a loss against S&S. Given the board above being useful against a good number of decks in the meta, and that it is so similar to the rest of what I am seeing, is our general plan to just disrupt via Thoughtseize? Should additional consideration be given to using Thalia in place of Ethersworn? This is something I've been mulling this past week as being useful against many of the same decks while being a bit broader. This is also part of what caused me pain in removing Containment Priest.

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Originally Posted by Aberosh1819

Point well taken, and yes, I absolutely took what you said to heart, and dropped in a Pyroclasm (testing) from the continued discussion here.

I'm mostly thinking about RUG delver for some reason, but should also be thinking about Grixis and UR. Someone else mentioned BUG. Methinks I am a bit behind the times heading into Columbus!



I'm really at a loss against S&S. Given the board above being useful against a good number of decks in the meta, and that it is so similar to the rest of what I am seeing, is our general plan to just disrupt via Thoughtseize? Should additional consideration be given to using Thalia in place of Ethersworn? This is something I've been mulling this past week as being useful against many of the same decks while being a bit broader. This is also part of what caused me pain in removing Containment Priest.

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I shaved my Cannonist for a second Priest, so it's a 2/2 Priest/Thalia split. I'm not thrilled with that matchup either, and it's become my main hangup with regard to committing to Loam.

Guys who have Swords to Plowshares in their sideboards:

Do you just cut the Chalices for this?

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Originally Posted by ironclad8690

Guys who have Swords to Plowshares in their sideboards:

Do you just cut the Chalices for this?

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So far, yes, except against Infect, where I cut my Deluge and Gaddock Teeg for 2 Swords.