[DTB] Blade Control

Looking to get into Stoneblade at the moment since I have the opportunity for a trade that would get me what I need for a UW version. However, still doubting since going for the red splash would make me buy 2x Volcanic's and the red stuff. Also a bit wary due to Snapcasters current price tag since I own just a singleton, 0 clique and 0 jace.

So first things first:

1. Is UW good enough?
2. Is the red splash worth the cash (volcanics, blood moon)
3. Could someone post a basic list for reference? Why play Clique over TNN or opt for both?
4. Why play this over Miracles?

PS: currently on Reanimator so I would be trading that for Stoneblade if I go through with it

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Originally Posted by redesign1991

Looking to get into Stoneblade at the moment since I have the opportunity for a trade that would get me what I need for a UW version. However, still doubting since going for the red splash would make me buy 2x Volcanic's and the red stuff. Also a bit wary due to Snapcasters current price tag since I own just a singleton, 0 clique and 0 jace.

So first things first:

1. Is UW good enough?
2. Is the red splash worth the cash (volcanics, blood moon)
3. Could someone post a basic list for reference? Why play Clique over TNN or opt for both?
4. Why play this over Miracles?

PS: currently on Reanimator so I would be trading that for Stoneblade if I go through with it

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Personally, I think the splashes available (red, black, or black/green for deathblade) are preferable to straight UW. Straight UW may be serviceable, possibly even competitive, but the splashes do add value.

The red splash in particular gives you a couple more removal slots (bolts) and some good sideboard cards with red blasts and blood moon (caveat: I'm not currently playing Blood Moon, but you can see the recent discussion here for the pros and cons). Having a 3rd color also lets you play Engineered Explosives, as some here do (I'm currently just on the Council's Judgement main/Supreme Verdict side plan; but Explosives is always a consideration).

The black splash gives you preemptive discard with Thoughtseize (and sometimes Inquisition), Lingering Souls, and its own suite of sideboard cards like Zealous Persecution. Deathblade offers these (minus Souls, usually) plus Deathrites. FWIW, when I splash black, I go with Deathblade because Deathrite Shaman is just that good. There's a separate Deathblade forum here if you want to investigate that.

Which splash is better kind of depends on your meta and your play style. I am currently torn between them, but playing Jeskai. There's a lot of Omnitell around locally and also online, and to be honest, I'm not sure which deck is better, but in theory I think Deathblade is because the discard is more proactive.

For Jeskai, I play 4 Tundra and 3 Volcs. If you're looking to limit costs, I think trying a straight UW build is not unreasonable. You can go old school and throw some Mishra's Factories in, or keep it basics heavy with some Back to Basics. If you've never played a Stoneblade deck before, it could give you a good intro from which to decide if you want to further plunge into one of the splashes. They aren't making more Volcs or Seas (except maybe in China), so if you have the resources, they're a relatively safe investment.

There's plenty of lists available online from real tournaments; I suggest checking out mtgtop8.com (which includes MODO results) or tcdecks.net. mtggoldfish currently has a hard time distinguishing between UWR Delver, UWR Stoneblade, Deathblade, and BUG Delver, so I don't recommend trying to find Stoneblade lists there.

As for choosing this over Miracles, for me it just comes to preference. Miracles is a very strong deck, obviously, and I played it for a long while, but I just got bored with it. Every game became just a test of finding an answers with top and then digging until you find your finisher. Stoneblade, while still ostensibly a control deck, is a lot more active and interesting. If you're coming off of Reanimator, I predict that either Miracles is going to bore the hell out of you, or maybe you're looking for a big change in pace of your deck and it's exactly what you're looking for. In that sense, Stoneblade is probably splitting the difference between the two decks.

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Originally Posted by Hrothgar

Unfortunately MUD is one of the worst matchup.
I don't know why MUD is not in the DTB.
I play vs MUD from one entire year with a very good player of this archetype in my meta and, with Ugin now, is too strong for all the Jeskai decks: miracle, blade and patriot.

With my Blade deck i side in Blood Moon x2, Wear Tear x2 and Engineered Explosives x2, siding out ponders, jitte and one Mystic for decrease the CC1 curve (Chalice).

Blood Moon in this matchup, work at 50% because he have Metalworker and Monolith.
Bring the Plowshares and the Lightning Bolt for this creature who, alone, can put into play Ugin --> every deck lose


Any player want to discuss about the MUD matchup?

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There's always MUD at my shop. The MUD matchup is close to even, maybe slightly unfavorable if you are doing the 0 ponder build (this is the main reason why I don't run Ponder nowadays). The 4 Ponder build is much worse.

Every game is different, but usually I'm trying to counter whatever their first play is (Chalice, Trinisphere, Monolith) and attempting to win in the midgame. Countering Monolith is often correct because they will usually drop a Cavern + a fatty after that.

Always save a Force for Ugin once they have mana for it, because you cannot beat that card.

Sundering Titan is almost as awful as Ugin is for us, and they can get it in with Cavern or an activated Forgemaster. So you have get down a TNN + equipment before that happens.

My usual sideboard is something like -2 Snapcaster, -1 Karakas, -1 Jitte, +1 Wear//Tear (or CJudge), +2 Blood Moon, +1 Feast and Famine. Snap is terrible against Lodestone Golem and Trinisphere and very limited against Chalice for 1. Feast and Famine makes it easier to cast multiple spells under Trinisphere/Golem.

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Originally Posted by redesign1991

1. Is UW good enough?
2. Is the red splash worth the cash (volcanics, blood moon)
3. Could someone post a basic list for reference? Why play Clique over TNN or opt for both?
4. Why play this over Miracles?

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1 - UW is a solid deck. If you know your meta and is not full of blue and non basics land, is a good choise. I play Jeskay for: Blast, Blood Moon and Lighting Bolt + Engineered.

2 - I think red is the right splash 'cause i like play more basics land. Esper is strong but require more non basics land and i like the basic manabase.

3/1 - This is my first list, I'm starting with a UW list:

2 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Stoneforge Mystic

2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
2 Dig Through Time
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

2 Council's Judgment
2 Ponder

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

But, with the experience, i have change this list.
Anyway, this is a good start for know the deck.

3/2 - Clique give more control than TNN and the split 2/2 are the good way for a unknow meta.

4 - This is a Control/Aggro, Miracle is a singular Control/"Combo". Only a personal choise. I'm happy to play both.

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Originally Posted by h2o

There's always MUD at my shop. The MUD matchup is close to even, maybe slightly unfavorable if you are doing the 0 ponder build (this is the main reason why I don't run Ponder nowadays). The 4 Ponder build is much worse.

Every game is different, but usually I'm trying to counter whatever their first play is (Chalice, Trinisphere, Monolith) and attempting to win in the midgame. Countering Monolith is often correct because they will usually drop a Cavern + a fatty after that.

Always save a Force for Ugin once they have mana for it, because you cannot beat that card.

Sundering Titan is almost as awful as Ugin is for us, and they can get it in with Cavern or an activated Forgemaster. So you have get down a TNN + equipment before that happens.

My usual sideboard is something like -2 Snapcaster, -1 Karakas, -1 Jitte, +1 Wear//Tear (or CJudge), +2 Blood Moon, +1 Feast and Famine. Snap is terrible against Lodestone Golem and Trinisphere and very limited against Chalice for 1. Feast and Famine makes it easier to cast multiple spells under Trinisphere/Golem.

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MUD is totally broken deck.
If he start with a SIMPLY Chalice -> Trinisphere, we are in bad bad times.
All his cards are bad for us or can give he a strong play at next turn (Metalworker or Stuff).

Resolved Ugin = gg

If the MUD player don't have bad draw, there are no way to win imho.

At game 2 we have a good cards to side in BUT the problems are the same.
If the MUD player have a MEDIUM/good start, there are no way to win.
Imho is one of the more strong deck.

About the side:

+2 Engineered Explosives (chalice and other)
+2 Blood Moon (BUT if we don't remove other mana source OR we don't kill Metalworker OR if the game go in the mid/long time OR we don't make a good pressure witha fast clique/true name, is only a little help and we lose the game)
+2 Wear Tear

-1 Umezawa
-1 Stoneforge
-4 Ponder

MUD is the strongest deck that I have ever faced in many years of MTG.

So I tried the red splash list over the weekend in a small local event. Only 8 players, so 3 rounds. I was matched up against BG Depths, Goblins, and Dredge. The second two are fine, but how do we deal w/ the Depths matchup? Seems like my best bet is hope to swords the first Marit Lage who shows up and then Blood Moon to shut off future shenanigans. Is there anything else I can do to fix this? My meta is quite small, and there is at least one more player running around with a depths deck, so it seems fairly important to fix the matchup as best I can.

+2 Rest In Peace to help keep them off Loam and gives them another target to spread the 3+ Krosan Grips a little thinner.

Regarding sideboard answers to creature-centric decks with the Red splash: do people prefer one-shot spells, or permanent/repeatable effects of removal?

e.g.: Sudden Demise, Pyroclasm, Electrickery, Engineered Explosives, Grim Lavamancer, Izzet Staticaster, Circle of Flame, Sulfur Elemental, etc.

Which card is 'best' largely depends on the current circumstance under consideration, but is there any consensus among players as to which cards are most worthwhile for SB slots? With how popular Young Pyromancer and Monastery Mentor are, I'd imagine that Blade decks would want some additional methods of killing small armies of critters (in addition to Jitte, which will be met with inevitable answers in the postboard games). DnT and Elves are problematic matchups that typically require more than just a handful of StP/LBolt effects.

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Originally Posted by wcm8

Regarding sideboard answers to creature-centric decks with the Red splash: do people prefer one-shot spells, or permanent/repeatable effects of removal?

e.g.: Sudden Demise, Pyroclasm, Electrickery, Engineered Explosives, Grim Lavamancer, Izzet Staticaster, Circle of Flame, Sulfur Elemental, etc.

Which card is 'best' largely depends on the current circumstance under consideration, but is there any consensus among players as to which cards are most worthwhile for SB slots? With how popular Young Pyromancer and Monastery Mentor are, I'd imagine that Blade decks would want some additional methods of killing small armies of critters (in addition to Jitte, which will be met with inevitable answers in the postboard games). DnT and Elves are problematic matchups that typically require more than just a handful of StP/LBolt effects.

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Pyroclasm, Supreme Verdict, Engineered Explosives, Sudden Demise, Izzet Staticaster, Sulfur Elemental ihmo are the best solution (in this order).
Circle of Flame is a good card vs Elves and little Token!

What makes this deck better than deathblade? All these blade lists look similar except that deathblade runs deathrite and sometimes discard. Deathrite in particular seems like extremley strong in these kind of decks, ramping out TNN t2, jace t3 etc. I understand UWr blade has a better manabase, but except for that, what's the reason to run this over blade decks that has deathrite in them?

Thanks

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Originally Posted by litenkatt

What makes this deck better than deathblade? All these blade lists look similar except that deathblade runs deathrite and sometimes discard. Deathrite in particular seems like extremley strong in these kind of decks, ramping out TNN t2, jace t3 etc. I understand UWr blade has a better manabase, but except for that, what's the reason to run this over blade decks that has deathrite in them?

Thanks

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It has to do with the rest of the metagame, in particular dealing with SnT and UWr Miracles. Dig Through Time, Show and Tell, Jace TMS, Counterbalance, etc -- all of these are elegantly dealt with via REB/Pyroblast.

Blood Moon also helps deal with Jund, BUG Cascade, Lands, and other decks susceptible to non-Basic hate.

If DTT were to get banned, I can envision the metagame shifting towards a position where Discard and other cards from Black's pool of choices are stronger. Until then, Red offers better cards for this style of midrange aggro-control. If you want to play a UBx deck, I'd argue that Grixis is the best option right now, not Esper Blade.

You're absolutely correct in your assessment of DRS being a fantastically strong card. It's just that UW Blade decks seem to benefit most from having access to Red instead of Black. Besides destabilizing the mana base, DRS also has some tension with cards like DTT and Snapcaster Mage. Mostly though it's that Red is better positioned as a tertiary color right now.

(To be honest, I'd be glad if DTT gets the axe. I'd like to go back to playing a deck with Thoughtseize and Dark Confidant alongside SFM and Batterskull).

Would you prefer 2 Pyroblasts/REB and 2 Blood Moon or 3 Pyroblast/REB and 1 Blood Moon in the board?

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Originally Posted by wcm8

It has to do with the rest of the metagame, in particular dealing with SnT and UWr Miracles. Dig Through Time, Show and Tell, Jace TMS, Counterbalance, etc -- all of these are elegantly dealt with via REB/Pyroblast.

Blood Moon also helps deal with Jund, BUG Cascade, Lands, and other decks susceptible to non-Basic hate.

If DTT were to get banned, I can envision the metagame shifting towards a position where Discard and other cards from Black's pool of choices are stronger. Until then, Red offers better cards for this style of midrange aggro-control. If you want to play a UBx deck, I'd argue that Grixis is the best option right now, not Esper Blade.

You're absolutely correct in your assessment of DRS being a fantastically strong card. It's just that UW Blade decks seem to benefit most from having access to Red instead of Black. Besides destabilizing the mana base, DRS also has some tension with cards like DTT and Snapcaster Mage. Mostly though it's that Red is better positioned as a tertiary color right now.

(To be honest, I'd be glad if DTT gets the axe. I'd like to go back to playing a deck with Thoughtseize and Dark Confidant alongside SFM and Batterskull).

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Thanks for the answer, appreciate it. I will likely bring a list of UWr blade to a tournament on saturday(tomorrow). I'll report if I do good...

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Originally Posted by wcm8

all the words

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I quote this :laugh:
I add - the manabase is better

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Originally Posted by beez

Would you prefer 2 Pyroblasts/REB and 2 Blood Moon or 3 Pyroblast/REB and 1 Blood Moon in the board?

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For *my* metagame, I'd prefer 3 Pyroblast + 2 Blood Moon. Yours may differ. In a wide open unknown meta, I suppose 2/2 is a safe bet.

Well, I run 2 Flusterstorm too. I like Pyroblast better in most cases, but with only 3 red mana it is hard to keep a lot of red open with multiple Blasts in hand. Do you bring them in against Delver too? A couple are great there especially if you side out some Force, but with supporting Lightning Bolt and Blood Moon maybe leans on the few Volcanic Islands a bit much, and some blue decks have Wasteland which they will try to keep you off red if they are smart. I guess 3 while Omni is so hot could be smart too.

I think my sideboard for an unknow meta.
My sideboard have:

-2 Flusterstorm
-2 Blast
-2 Moon

Maybe in a great tournament 3 blast is the correct choise.

Anyone going to the StarCity Open in D.C. in a month or so? After testing I am really starting to like this list and will be taking it to D.C. . The Myth Realized's are giving me a really good mid game threat and/or blocker that opponents are having to answer. If cast on turn 1 or turn 2, it seems to outclass a goyf by turn 4 or 5 at the latest. it quickly hits 3/3 and gets to 4/4 or 5/5 without over extending to get it there. The biggest I've had it was 8/8 and it did it's job as pulling removal toward it, which opened the door for TNN to finish the game for me.

Not completely sold on my side board choices, but they seem to be dynamic enough in most metagames. I still go back and forth on Humility and Elspeth as real "answers" or not. I've thought about Pithing Needle maybe in one of those slots to help out against waste land locks, Jaces and other things but I'm not sure on if I fear that stuff more than Eldrazi, or Miracles.

Any suggestions for the board and the Humility/Elspeth slots?

Lands (22)
4 Flooded Strand [ONS]
1 Island [DDH]
1 Karakas [LEG]
1 Marsh Flats [ZEN]
4 Mutavault [MOR]
1 Plains [DDH]
3 Polluted Delta [ONS]
1 Scrubland [3ED]
3 Tundra [3ED]
3 Underground Sea [3ED]
Creatures (9)
3 Spellstutter Sprite [LRW]
3 Stoneforge Mystic [WWK]
3 True-Name Nemesis [C13]
Other Spells (29)
1 Batterskull [NPH]
3 Bitterblossom [MOR]
4 Brainstorm [5ED]
2 Enlightened Tutor [6ED]
4 Force of Will [ALL]
2 Myth Realized [DTK]
3 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce [ZEN]
3 Standstill [ODY]
4 Swords to Plowshares [DDF]
1 Umezawa's Jitte [BOK]

Sideboard (15)
1 Chill [TMP]
2 Containment Priest [C14]
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant [MD1]
1 Enlightened Tutor [6ED]
2 Ethersworn Canonist [ALA]
2 Flusterstorm [CMD]
1 Humility [TMP]
2 Rest in Peace [RTR]
1 Vendilion Clique [MOR]
2 Zealous Persecution [ARB]

No, but I've been playing a new list to solid success.

2 SCM
4 SFM
2 TNN
3 Mentor

1 BSkull
1 Jitte

3 StP
2 JCouncil
1 SVerdict
1 Jace

3 DTT
4 Brainstorm
3 Probe

3 CTherapy
1 TSeize
2 Pierce
4 FoW

1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Island
1 Karakas
1 Scrubland
2 USea
2 Tundra
1 Marsh Flats
4 Strand
4 Delta
2 Wasteland

I'm working on building a sideboard, yes there are 61 cards, and my latest change was -2 Thought Scour, +1 Probe, +1 Snapcaster. Idk if it's correct, but I haven't been the biggest fan of it, just trying to see if it's really necessary. Hope you like the build. I Playtest most against MUD and I've been doing quite well. Win ratio of approximately 60-65%.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

When do you guys go with Sword of Ice and Fire over Jitte? I always find myself just wanting a Jitte - even against RUG decks - because I can make my things bigger than Goyfs and shoot down Delvers if I need to.

When they have a TNN on the field. I'm currently not playing a SoFI. I just updated what I've been playing two posts up.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!