[Primer/Deck] Pox

I've tried Tomb of Urami before and he can work out well, he just requires a lot of resources to use him. Even if you have stripped your opponents hand of cards, they can just rip a wasteland or swords for him and you're kind fucked. I think Phyrexian Totem is strictly better because your opponent has to have instant speed removal for him which they should have no cards in their hand on your turn because of Liliana. And with how much creature removal we have, we shouldn't have to worry too much about the down side to him. Also the totem is a mana rock.

I just see the pros outweighing the cons with Phyrexian Totem.

I quite like Tomb of Urami. It doesn't compete for a slot of e.g. Phyrexian Totem but with a Swamp. If you think that making the token would cause you to lose, then don't activate the ability; at the end of the day the only loss is that you have another land (among many others) that can get hit by Wasteland, and pings you for damage if you don't control Urborg. The potential upside is worth it imo (but I don't think I would play more than one due to the huge diminishing returns of it being legendary and basically impossible to use 2 in the same game).

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

An older MTGO list had 2 tombs and 1 Nether Void. Essentially, being able to come back using Crucible isn't the point. Takes too many turns. What you're supposed to do is summon Urami at end of their turn when their hand is empty, their land count is less than 4, and the Nether Void is online. In that scenario, your opponent has few turns. In the 'perfect world' scenario, your Nether Void is online and you Sinkholed/Smallpoxed all their land away and you use Phyrexian Totems or what not to power out your Urami.

In that case, your win is guaranteed. I've found Urami better to run in a Loam Deck for some reason but a 5/5 all-in play works when you've got an overwhelming advantage. In my deck, it's a 3 turn clock cause I WILL big Pox you before swinging for the fences.

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That makes a lot of sense with the Voids. I'm still working towards those, but I may try one out. The cost to run it is pretty minimal.

On the subject of Totems, has anyone used Guardian Idol? The fact that it doesn't tap for black probably hurts too much, but I remember using it to ramp in Death Cloud Green back in the day and it's Pox-proof.

If we're running mana rocks, does it make sense to go a little bigger? Is there more room for 5 mana planeswalkers and 4 mana enchantments in the deck if we can skip a turn to get there? What if we run 3 or 4 Phyrexian Totems to boost us into the range of cards like Damnation, Tainted Aether, Liliana: Death's Majesty, Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath. I'm not really advocating for this, I'm just thinking out loud - it seems funny to run a 3 mana rock when out curve tops out at 3. I guess Totem is not really to ramp, it's to make our mana more resilient while also presenting a threat.

I think Chimeric Idol is the next best "Idol" go to in Pox. Fatal Push is the first card to really offer us an instant speed spell we'd want to keep mana up for, so playing our sorceries then tapping out to attack wasn't a big downside. In a world where we were Poxing as often as we could, hitting with only a single Swamp to our name was a plus.

You're right about Pyrexian Totem, it's not for ramping our mana, but keeping us powered when we're leveraging our own land count to keep our opponent screwed, either through Smallpox or Wasteland.

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

I think Chimeric Idol is the next best "Idol" go to in Pox. Fatal Push is the first card to really offer us an instant speed spell we'd want to keep mana up for, so playing our sorceries then tapping out to attack wasn't a big downside. In a world where we were Poxing as often as we could, hitting with only a single Swamp to our name was a plus.

You're right about Pyrexian Totem, it's not for ramping our mana, but keeping us powered when we're leveraging our own land count to keep our opponent screwed, either through Smallpox or Wasteland.

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Chimeric Idol is in fact excellent if you want to trick your opponent. We've got access to 3 free spells in ascending order.

1. Snuff Out, hurts your life quite badly, but can be offset with...
2. Spinning Darkness. A nice cheap classic that's excellent for midgame. What's more, it allows you to run 2-3 Nether Spirits as you can simply exile the excess should they be board wiped. Forces burn to use an extra Bolt.
3. Contagion. Recommended by Tom "The Boss" Ross in his own Pox deck. Works wonders against Infect and other low toughness based decks. Can 2 for 2 if your target the right elves/goblins etc. Or hard cast it late game. I'd recommend 1-2 of these.

I really wanted Chimerics to work but Mishra's Factory is too ingrained. Much like the QWERTY keyboard vs. Dvorak. I do reference an old deck from way back from time to time: http://www.mtgtwincast.com/Articles/...PoxPrimer.html An ancient build with an awkward pairing of Mishra's with Chimeric. Still, something to consider despite the inherent dis-synergy.

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

I really wanted Chimerics to work but Mishra's Factory is too ingrained. Much like the QWERTY keyboard vs. Dvorak. I do reference an old deck from way back from time to time: http://www.mtgtwincast.com/Articles/...PoxPrimer.html An ancient build with an awkward pairing of Mishra's with Chimeric. Still, something to consider despite the inherent dis-synergy.

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I have definitely run Factory and Idol together, it never bothered me. This was pre-smallpox though. I haven't considered Idol recently, but it could be worth trying out.

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Originally Posted by ntropy

I have definitely run Factory and Idol together, it never bothered me. This was pre-smallpox though. I haven't considered Idol recently, but it could be worth trying out.

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Do you run it like in the elder deck mentioned? 3 Idol to 2 Factory or would it be worth it running 4/4 or 2 Idol/3-4 Factory? The reasoning was Factory was a 'fall back' win condition in case other win conditions were unavailable. It also made casting spells easier with stable color base. The original Pox thread mentioned just removing Crucibles made space since Factory + Crucible were Nether Spirit in combo.

The problem ultimately is removing lands as kill conditions means you lose more disruption. It's a delicate balancing act.

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

Do you run it like in the elder deck mentioned? 3 Idol to 2 Factory or would it be worth it running 4/4 or 2 Idol/3-4 Factory? The reasoning was Factory was a 'fall back' win condition in case other win conditions were unavailable. It also made casting spells easier with stable color base. The original Pox thread mentioned just removing Crucibles made space since Factory + Crucible were Nether Spirit in combo.

The problem ultimately is removing lands as kill conditions means you lose more disruption. It's a delicate balancing act.

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That is exactly why I haven't really gone back to the Idols - they took up disruption spots. I seem to remember running a full 4 and 4 Idols and factories, but that seems impossible since this was pre-Urborg as-well. There was probably a lot of movement, 3 factories one day, 4 the next, wheatever.

I hate to break up this Idol discussion, but is anyone else playing Cursed Totem in their sideboard? I love this card right now. It's been hitting so many cards for me even in matchups you wouldn't expect. Tin Fins pretty much scooped once it resolved.

Seems good against Elves - most other matchups I can see myself boarding it in (eg griselbrand decks) Pithing Needle seems better? As it can also stop Sneak Attack in show n tell for example, or both Stoneforge and Aether Vial against Dnt

Ultimately you are stopping creature abilities in a deck built to kill all creatures.
Pithing Needle does what Cursed Totem does but is infinitely more flexible and half the cost.
You bring up Tin Fins as your example. Pithing Needle can cripple them the same and you also have grave hate.
Elves is not the most tedious of matchups so I cannot imagine having anothing as narrow as Cursed Totem for side games.
Death and Taxes is minimally impacted but Neelde on Vial or Stoneforge is better than Totem on Mother and Stoneforge.

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Originally Posted by sppabin

Ultimately you are stopping creature abilities in a deck built to kill all creatures.
Pithing Needle does what Cursed Totem does but is infinitely more flexible and half the cost.
You bring up Tin Fins as your example. Pithing Needle can cripple them the same and you also have grave hate.
Elves is not the most tedious of matchups so I cannot imagine having anothing as narrow as Cursed Totem for side games.
Death and Taxes is minimally impacted but Neelde on Vial or Stoneforge is better than Totem on Mother and Stoneforge.

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Is it as flexible as Pithing Needle? No.

However, it does hit multiple cards at once in a deck that loves to get 2 for 1s or better. The card wrecks Elves, against Loam it hits Knight+Scooze+Deathrite+Dryad Arbor, D&T is splashing red now and this hits Stoneforge+Nalaar family+mom. I used to run three copies of Needle but without Miracles as an ever present threat I ditched one for a Totem, and it has been very good. Catch all cards have a place in sideboards as far as I'm concerned.

Have to agree with Sppabin

You have to be careful about suggesting Cursed Totem generates 2-for-1s when your is full of Edicts. In creature matchups you are obviously boarding in / keeping in all of your creature removal. So when you play Innocent Blood or Smallpox or whatever then they just sac whatever you already turned off with Totem. Meanwhile if you just had 2 Innocent Bloods instead you could have killed both of their guys and not have to worry about the remaining creature attacking you or Liliana.

If there is one specific gamebreaking ability that you really care about then you will be glad that Pithing Needle only costs 1 mana (against TinFins for example) and can hit planeswalkers / random stuff like Grindstone.

There isn't really a strategy built around activating multiple different creature abilities except Elves, where I would rather have NOSB or Engineered Plague anyway.

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Originally Posted by Chiptoon

Is it as flexible as Pithing Needle? No.

However, it does hit multiple cards at once in a deck that loves to get 2 for 1s or better. The card wrecks Elves, against Loam it hits Knight+Scooze+Deathrite+Dryad Arbor, D&T is splashing red now and this hits Stoneforge+Nalaar family+mom. I used to run three copies of Needle but without Miracles as an ever present threat I ditched one for a Totem, and it has been very good. Catch all cards have a place in sideboards as far as I'm concerned.

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I was playing 2 Needle and 1 Null Rod during Miracles era. Needle was flexible Null Rod had overlap with other applications. Similar approach to what you have. I would say Totem ends up being dead more often though. Every creature still needs dealt with. Even if Knight and Ooze cannot use abilities they still attack.
I have yet to play a league post Top banning so there is a chance the meta is perfect for Totem. My main concern is that it is a sideboard slot that makes our good matchups better.

Cursed totem doesn't really appeal to me, since elves is thenpromary matchup I think you want it in, and I think that matchup is already reasonable to good. I prefer pitching needle to null rod or totem, simply because I am loathe to go below 10 cards I can board in vs lands. In my testing, game one is basically an auto scoop (although some of that may be that our local lands player is the luckiest sack of excremental to walk the face of the earth when it comes to Mtg) and the board plan should be able to at least partially make up for that. I'm inclined to think lands will get more popular with one of the 50-50, skill dependent matchups getting hit.
I also think that the ability to hit the other permanent that actually matters (aether vial, sneak attack, jace tms, etc.) is a very potent option in matchups that do have creatures we care about. Heavens, hitting fetch lands has won me games before.

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Originally Posted by Quitrex

Cursed totem doesn't really appeal to me, since elves is thenpromary matchup I think you want it in, and I think that matchup is already reasonable to good. I prefer pitching needle to null rod or totem, simply because I am loathe to go below 10 cards I can board in vs lands. In my testing, game one is basically an auto scoop (although some of that may be that our local lands player is the luckiest sack of excremental to walk the face of the earth when it comes to Mtg) and the board plan should be able to at least partially make up for that. I'm inclined to think lands will get more popular with one of the 50-50, skill dependent matchups getting hit.
I also think that the ability to hit the other permanent that actually matters (aether vial, sneak attack, jace tms, etc.) is a very potent option in matchups that do have creatures we care about. Heavens, hitting fetch lands has won me games before.

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What are your ten versus lands?

Current list
1 cabal pit
1 ghost quarter
2 marsh flats
4 factory
8 swamp
1 tabernacle
3 urborg
4 wasteland
1 nether spirit
1 crucible of worlds
3 cursed scroll
3 dark ritual
3 fatal push
1 grim tutor
4 hymn to tourach
4 Liliana of the veil
2 nether void
3 sinkhole
4 smallpox
1 abyss
4 thoughtseize
2 toxic deluge

2 chains
1 crucible
2 ensnaring bridge
2 extirpate
1 night of souls betrayal
3 pitching needle
3 surgical extraction
1 the abyss

In
3 Surgical
2 Extirpate
2 Bridge
3 Needle
1 Crucible

Out
3 fatal push
2 hymn
1 thoughtseize
1 nether void
1 tabernacle
2 deluge

I generally keep the abyss in anymore since most of them are on 2-3 prime Titan or tracker in the board, use the needles to buy borderline infinite time against the depths kill and to help lock them off of porting us. The first surgical or extirpate should (almost) always go for a loan or a depths. If you can hit loan and find a crucible, you want to hit their artifact hate so you can just wasteland lock them, if you hit a depths, I usually just go for the punishing fire and whatever their backup win con is so that they just can't win. The thoughtseizes are mostly there to let you know what you actually need to play around and forcibly expose their artifact hate or loan to your gy hate when they aren't ready for it, while the hymns can just randomly win a game (oh, did I get your only green source? Oops...) bridge is similar to needle in that it buys huge time against depths, but trades coming down early for being good against most of the chosen backup plans. I leave one nether void in just for an additional thing to lock them under with crucible/wasteland, but it's not as splendid as you want to leave both copies in. I generally just scoop game 1 as soon as I know what deck they're on, and this board plan seems to put games 2-3 at a manageable enough situation that I'm almost running 50-50 for matches. Probably needs a little refining to fit everybody's individual taste, but it works fairly well for me.
The 10 cards I'm referring to is the non-crucible cards I board in, as I don't always have the 2nd crucible in the board.

Lost to fast exploration /crop rotation last Tuesday. It just ignored my wasteland surgical hate.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

Lost to fast exploration /crop rotation last Tuesday. It just ignored my wasteland surgical hate.

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It's those moments where I would love to play Shadow of Doubt. That card always seems like it would be good, but when I actually test the card it's never in my hand even when I try three copies.

So I'm gonna take Pox to 7-round tourney today for the first time.


Had a last quick question: what do you guys think about play-draw?

Against quick combo of course there's no question of going on the play, but I noticed over the last 2 weeks playtesting, that against slower decks (f.ex. with Jace) or even midrange I won 75% (gut feeling, didn't write down results to analyse statistically) when they were on the play, and I lost when I was on the play. Often even when looking at the top card, it would have been the one to wipe the board and get me back in.

So my feeling tells me to go on the draw against anything that ends in a top deck war and doesn't need turn 1 interaction like Thoughtseize for Vial, as you'll have +2 cards on them compared to being on the play. And without a way to sculpt our hands, having +2 cards on your opponent seems better than having nothing to Innocent Blood on turn 1; on the other hand being on the draw means their creatures will often have had 1 more turn to attack before they die.


Any insight on this from more experienced players? I know of some control pilots (like Miracles) who like to go on the draw in the mirror as well.