I play 3 Deeds. I think Nissa is better than Wood Elves.
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I play 3 Deeds. I think Nissa is better than Wood Elves.
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you're right, but i meant that i don't really need that extra ramp if my curve ends at 5. so I'd rather add another silver bullet or the third deed.Quote:
Originally Posted by TTX
Gratz on your results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by TTX
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Matter Reshaper
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Read the Bones
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Wastes
3 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Eye of Ugin
//sb
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm
2 Krosan Grip
2 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Disfigure
1 Nether Void
2 Trinisphere
2 Thoughtseize
2 Warping Wail
Here atm for those who are interested in the colorless version.
Tested Living Wishes -- while situationally powerful (as with most wishes), they weren't good enough to justify the slots. The loss of white as an option was incredibly painful. Too many of the best Living Wish targets are wholly or partially white.
Testing out a Fierce Empath, although I'm not cutting the Eye of Ugin. Not very happy about cutting the 3rd Reshaper, but I had to find room somewhere. Pending testing I may try to find a better slot to cut, not sure yet. Ended up putting the 2x Deluges back maindeck -- they fix more problems than they cause, even though I'm still mad about drawing them half the time.
Has Melira been considered successful as a bullet?Quote:
Originally Posted by helvetios
Only in a meta where you encounter Infect on a regular basis.Quote:
Originally Posted by TTX
I'd stick with 3 Deeds. It's been my magic number for years now as well. It's a wonderful catch-all answer.
@Arianrhod: I would've replaced a Baloth for that Empath. Matter Reshapers just give you too much value to throw out. You might want to replace that second Baloth with a Meren. Meren just seems to good not to run in that build, especially when she could team up with Matter Reshaper. Meren + Reshaper + sac outlet seems like a lot of fun (or just Reshaper as a chump blocker).
I think Melira is a bit too specific. I will go with the third deed for now.Quote:
Originally Posted by TTX
Why is it that some lists play a stoneforge package? Is that a preference-thing, or are they that good in certain matchups?
Noo not that discussion again. Last week SFM has been disected to death. Reading back should give you an answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by helvetios
@Arianrhod
I resolved problem with white running one savannah MD to have option to hardcast Gaddock, along with 4 Rotation on SB there. I also tested Wishes and actually I quite like them as Eye/Explorer/Titan.
That's my last list which I was testing:
3 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Wood Elves
2 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Windswept Heath
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Savannah
4 Living Wish
SB: 1 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 1 Glacial Chasm
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 Crop Rotation
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Sadistic Sacrament
SB: 1 Thespian's Stage
SB: 1 Eye of Ugin
SB: 1 Primeval Titan
SB: 1 Phyrexian Tower
SB: 1 Veteran Explorer
SB: 1 Cavern of Souls
Downsides which probably exclude this list for big tournament is very few slots in SB, on other hand consistency is great, having access to 11 Explores, 5 towers, and 11 Titans is garentee to win game turn 6.
An other difficulty factor is side-in when you have to decide if you want your bullet under Wish or GSZ (most time speed is a key so I side-in bullets to dodge additional discard.
I also add few utility lands like Tower and Cavern under Wish which gives me additional line of play vs for example FoW in hand, or missing Sacrifice outlet.
For those on colorless how has endbringer been vs say wurmcoil as an empath target. oblivion sower seems really good here as well. its s possible ramp 2, clear miracles top four, clear out a brainstorm that just hid some cards from therapy? I haven't played the list just spitballing here thinking wurm coil looks underwhelming with 2 baloths tusks and glimmer posts for like gain. i know it poops out babys and deathtouches tho good value.
Seconded!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
@Fatal: With value creatures like Solemn Simulacrum (which I love to death. It sucks so hard that it isn't green), Eternal Witness and Wood Elves that list just screams for Meren.
Mayhaps instead of Solemn Simulacrum #2 or Pernicious Deed #4?
In other news: In the everlasting quest for CA I've ordered a couple of planeswalkers to try out. I'm going to test the following:
Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Vraska the Unseen
Ajani b/c, well, CA. And +1/+1 counters also have a lasting effect on the field. Being able to fetch an Arbor and turn it into a 7/7 by the time it gets to swing for the first time seems funny enough to me to try it. Kinda like equipment with a 0 mana equip cost (wink wink, nudge nudge).
Elspeth b/c it also allows you to create a somewhat recurring threat (props go to rubblekill I suppose, I believe I saw him do it first and I was being the stubborn dick stating it sucked. Guess I'm going to find out myself).
Sorin b/c he can wreck an opposing field after a couple of turns.
And Vraska for the lulz. She kills opposing walkers if need be and I find the threat of the insta-kill hilarious.
To run all this I'll have to take out my Empath + package (Dromoka, Karador and Tasigur) but might be re-adding stuff from there depending on how things work out. I guess the first change'd be -1 walker, +1 DRS and after that Dromoka.
I would so love to run some of the bigger walkers (Garruk Apex Predator and Ugin, mostly) but they just cost so much mana and I don't want to turn even more into ramp.dec. Feels too much all in.
@Echelon
I tried Meren, and .. it was really bad in this build, you have no time to bump her experience, it's rather cute then effective here. You always want to ramp as fast as you can then cast Titan to win, in between you clean table with Deed, that's all.
as for Walkers I see only two which works good:
- Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
- Karn Librated
Other are just bad compared to them.
Wurmcoil vs Endbringer - it's totally diffrent beasts - Wurmcoil is here only bacause lifegain and removal resilient. Endbringer bring options to CA which is other Aim for this function I have Kozilek which gives CA immediately.
Yeah, unfortunately they'd both be sitting in my hand most of the time if I slotted them in my build. I didn't allow myself to run any walker over 5 mana. If I could support it, I'd happily run 3 Ugin. That thing is beyond insane. Just add in 4 Diabolic Intent & Leeroy Jenkins that shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal
Okay, so I took Scapewish to IQ Games this Saturday. I brought this list:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 STE
1 Wood Elves
1 Nissa
1 Witness
1 Huntmaster
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
4 Therapy
4 Zenith
4 Burning Wish
3 SDT
3 Deed
2 Decay
2 Painful Truths
2 Scapeshift
2 Slaughter Games
2 Valakut
4 Taiga
4 Badlands
1 Blood Crypt
2 Mountain
2 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Needle
2 Thoughtseize
1 Decay
1 Krosan Grip
1 Innocent Blood
1 Deluge
1 Pyroclasm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Scapeshift
1 Slaughter Games
Game 1 - Dredge
I win the die roll, and proceed to mull to 5. I don't do much very quickly, and he draws and passes discarding a Phantasmagorigan. I top furiously and get beaten down by an Ichorid and some Narcomoebas for a bit, end up with 5 mana, Deed and Veteran in hand, and decide to make both holding up 1 to Deed. I crack it to kill his zombies and my vet, exiling his bridge, but his ichorid + 2 narco are enough to DR a Balustrade Spy, killing me.
-2 Decay
-1 Thragtusk
-1 Primeval Titan
-1 Nissa (I think? Might have been Huntmaster)
+3 Surgical
+2 Thoughtseize
I choose to draw since he isn't going to be doing anything his turn 1 on the play anyway. I ramp into Slaughter Games and take Dread Return, then Surgical his Grave-trolls while he pokes at me with a couple narcomoebas. I eventually find Burning Wish and Scape him out.
He has me go first game 3. I use Thoughtseize turn 1 followed by Therapy and Vet, stripping his hand so he can't discard any of his dredgers. I draw Scapeshift and win before he gets going.
Turns out he was expecting Grafdigger's Cage etc. after sideboard and put in a load of Nature's Claims and Elvish Spirit Guides, which didn't end up doing anything for him.
Round 2 - Combo Lands
My opponent makes turn 1 Exploration, turn 2 Loam, and generally looks dangerous. I make Thragtusk to go to 21 life (fetched a bit, had to make untapped Blood Crypt) and survive the Lage hit in the hope of Wishing for Innocent Blood, but he has Punishing Fire to finish me.
-3 Pernicious Deed
-1 Abrupt Decay
-1 Scapeshift
+3 Surgical Extraction
+2 Pithing Needle
I Therapy his Exploration and Surgical his Life From the Loam. He Ports me for a bit but I get to 7 lands soon enough, Therapy to make sure he can't Rotation into Glacial Chasm and Scapeshift him.
Game 3 is pretty similar - I have Decay for his Exploration, Slaughter Games Crop Rotation and Gamble, giving me enough time to get to Scapeshift.
Game 3 - Combo Lands again
Game 1 I get Wastelanded and Marit Lage'd to death pretty quickly.
Same sideboard as previous round.
I therapy his Exploration once again, he Gambles for Loam. I make Needle naming Wasteland to keep my board developing (I had a Valakut in play that I don't want to lose) and he eventually Decays it, but I get to Scapeshift. This is an awkward one because I just have to hope he doesn't have Crop Rotation, but I go for it and he doesn't have it.
Game 3 I remove all his tutoring with Slaughter and Surgical, but can't find a Scapeshift. We go to time and I can't quite kill him through Glacial Chasm in time.
Round 4 - Death and Taxes
My opponent makes Vial on turn one into Port + Mom + Thalia and I die.
-2 Slaughter Games
-2 Painful Truths
+1 Abrupt Decay
+1 Krosan Grip (I saw Stoneforge + Batterskull)
+2 Pithing Needle
I get a Veteran opposing her Thalia, block her and meet Aven Mindcensor. I can't Wish for an answer in time and die to Mindcensor + Thalia + Serra Avenger beats.
Round 5 - Miracles
I see a fetch into Tundra which is a nice change. I go Veteran into Therapy (Name FoW, hit, see Mentor + Terminus + Entreat + Counterbalance), flashback Therapy for Entreat, Slaughter Games his Monastery Mentors. Next turn I Decay his Counterbalance, then Wish for Slaughter Games and take his JTMS, leaving him with only Snapcaster to win with. I Zenith for Eternal Witness and Slaughter Snapcasters, he scoops to go to game 2.
+3 Surgical Extraction
+1 Abrupt Decay
-3 Veteran Explorer
-1 Green Sun's Zenith (to wish for)
Game 2 he Ponders t1, I Therapy him and he Forces it (pitching Jace). I make a Veteran Explorer and flash it back, he lets Vet trigger resolve then uses his new island to Spell Pierce it. I let Pierce resolve, pay the mana, then Extraction his Forces, seeing JTMS and a Tundra in hand. He durdles for a couple turns while I cast double Painful Truths and I Scapeshift knowing he is Force-less.
Game 6 - 4c deathblade? of some form
He makes Deathrite into TNN into Liliana, I make Veteran - Therapy his Force - make Deed and kill everything but Lili. I Zenith up a Primeval Titan but leave Badlands untapped rather than Taiga and can't make Veteran to protect from Lili -2. I Zenith up an Eternal Witness for Primeval Titan and he dies.
-2 Slaughter Games
+1 Abrupt Decay
+1 Pithing Needle
He makes DRS and TNN and I make Huntmaster to stay at a nice high life total, then attack him down to 18 and Scapeshift for lethal.
Top 8 is a prize split, but part of the support (free entry into next tournament) can't easily be split. 4 of the top8 scoop it to go get food so we go straight to semis.
Top 4 - Death and Taxes
She Swords my Veteran and makes a Revoker naming Deed. I Decay it and end up against Thalia + Stoneforge + Batter. She ports all my black sources but I rip a Swamp off the top to Deed all her creatures away leaving her with Batterskull and SoFI in play with ~50 life to my 2. I make some Wood Elves, an Ashaya token with Nissa and a Huntmaster wolf to block the SoFI'd dudes she draws and eventually Deed away all the equipment. I have to Scapeshift for 30 damage, doing 3 to kill an otherwise lethal Flickerwisp and putting her down to ~24. Eventually I tick Nissa up enough to ultimate for lethal.
Game 2 I Wish up Pyroclasm but Thalia survives thanks to Eiganjo Castle and I die shortly after.
Game 3 we both durdle a little bit and I end up casting Scapeshift for lethal.
Final - Shardless
1 - He makes DRS and a Goyf, which eats a Decay. He makes a Strix and a few other nonthreatening dudes, but his clock isn't fast enough and I Scapeshift him.
2 - I get beaten to death by a Creeping Tar Pit, a Strix and a Deathrite. I could have killed him on the last turn before I died, but I decided not to use Top to draw the Therapy so I could crack my Veteran for some reason, not thinking about the Scapeshift I have in hand.
3 - I hit two copies of Deathrite in his opening hand with turn 1 Therapy. He Wastes me for a bit then makes Shardless into Strix, but I have Thragtusk + Huntmaster - Thrag trades with Strix and the Wolf trades with Shardless, Huntmaster flips killing DRS then eats a decay, and I beat him to death with a Beast token and a Wood Elves.
Thoughts:
- I *definitely* want a copy of Massacre in the wishboard. I'm currently thinking of replacing Toxic Deluge, but it has to go in there somewhere.
- Five Basics feels manageable, but you do have to work around it quite a bit. I'm not too bothered about the Wasteland vulnerability since it's only a problem if they have recursion, and those decks run Port so if they get a waste lock on you you're screwed whether you have five basics or seven.
- I wasn't too happy with Sakura-Tribe Elder. He's okay but because I'm only running 5 basics, he misses a lot. I did have one opponent try to Decay my top in reponse to Nissa's ETB, so I put it on top and declined to search since I already had both my Forests anyway. I definitely want a 2-drop to Zenith for but I'm not sure if STE doesn't want to be something else that is a bit more effective defensively. Having had a look around there aren't many more options - Jade Mage? Hah.
- Surgical Extraction is awesome and absolutely should stay in the SB as a 3-of at least. I'm tempted to go to 4.
- Primeval Titan was fine (ended games pretty quickly when he turned up) but didn't do anything particularly terrifying. I guess if I want a giant monster that ends the game he does so reasonably well. He's pretty good if your opponent is durdling with a True-Name Nemesis.
- Nissa was okay but often didn't have a Forest to search up. When she flipped she was pretty strong, although vulnerability to Decay is lame.
- Painful Truths was great all day. I never felt like it would be a good Wish target though, much better to draw it naturally.
- Mana base was absolutely fine. Only issues came up with regards to Rishadan Port locking me off B (or in one case R). D&T in particular did this well because Explorers found her a lot of plains to activate Port / cast spells with, whereas Lands doesn't have the basics to search up.
Gratz !Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
With 5 basics STE and Nissa feels awkward.
Surgical is awesome.
"Massacre" is definitely mandatory. D&T is usually a real pain in the ass. I can't remember the last time I have wanted a Toxic to be wished for, save the Elves MU (but here you would like Toxic MD...).
I am a huge proponent for leaving a CT in the side. This is usually my *first* wish target as it opens a lot of broken plays.
Keep rocking !
Edit: Against Miracle I tend to side out 3 wishes. You don't want to be counterlock @ 2.
Golgari Charm is also a fine answer to D&T (and other decks that run small critters) that also offers some other fringe utility. It doesn't kill all of their creatures but does answer the most annoying ones (Mother, Revoker & Thalia mostly).
What alternatives are there? I quite liked Nissa because she's a fine lategame backup even if I'm not finding a Forest with her. I was happy to miss with her most of the time. STE less so - not sure what to put in here. I might try some games with a Jade Mage or a Scavenging Ooze and see how well that works out, since it also gives you a use for Ported lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
I feel like CT is at its absolute best when you can cast it on turn one and again on two. Having one in the wishboard is okay, I suppose, but it feels pretty slow. Particularly because the decks where you are gonna still need a Therapy after turn 3 (i.e. Miracles and other durdly control decks) you probably just want to Wish for Slaughter Games anyway.Quote:
CT in the side
I disagree here - if Miracles assembles counter-top you need a Decay / K.Grip or lethal on board or you're probably screwed anyway. No point trying to play around it when your best bet is to try and prevent it from happening in the first place. Wishes are must-counter for Miracles a lot of the time anyway because of Slaughter Games, I find they're pretty effective at drawing out the Forces / Counterspells so I can Scape.Quote:
Against Miracle I tend to side out 3 wishes. You don't want to be counterlock @ 2.
I think Massacre is my preference just because I don't have to side it in and hope I can draw it - Sorcery on Massacre means I can Wish it up and play it game 1 / have better odds of finding it.Quote:
Golgari Charm
As for basics (and without needing to look at the rest of the manabase) i say 7 is the magic number. If you run 4 Veteran Explorer and Nissa (and perhaps Wood Elves/STE) you really want to exploit the ramping capabilities. If you don't then it is a waste actually. You dont wanna get stuck with ramp cards but nothing to (more) to ramp into. And Nissa is worth it also.
1) 5 basic lands seem extremely low. But it worked for you. I swear by Scavenging Ooze.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
2) Having a CT in the side might be a bit slow BUT with 4 veteran + 4 GSZ + 3 CT + 4 BW, I am maximizing my chance to blow up a veteran with a cabal therapy. It is like having access to a virtual 7 CT.
3) I don't play neither Abrupt Decay nor Krosan Grip. I side in every bullet I have against Miracle and side out BW + Veteran + therapy. Usually, I try to resolve a pernicious deed. SLG is usually game.
Here is my sideboard
3 Slaughter Games
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Dryad Militant -> extra hedge against storm.
1 Cabal therapy
1 Pyroclasm
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Massacre
1 Scapeshift
1 Fiery Confluence -> 3 birds, 1 stone.
True, but I'm most concerned about blowing a Veteran with Cabal Therapy before turn three. After that point I'm significantly more likely to want to blow my Vet with Innocent Blood than with Therapy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf