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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wonderPreaux
Given how known Extraction is in ANT mirrors, I'm not sure how consistently you can get people with it, there are also odd cases like Grim Tutor in addition to a general cognizance that should exist around it. What I like about Flusterstorm is that you don't need the opponent to run into it, Flusterstorm stopping a cantrip or discard spell so you can followup with a "protected from their protection" turn 2 is a pretty real deal. And even if the opponent goes t1 Duress, I'd rather have the lightning rod of Flusterstorm to protect my LEDs or other important cards, whereas an opponent can simply contort to play around Extraction.
Still, what pushes Flusterstorm over the edge for me is that, with the inclusion of Basics, it becomes very feasible to beat up on Daze/Stifle decks that would ordinarily plague my manabase of all duals and fetches.
Flusterstorm in ANT was introduced by Carsten to slow down opposing combo decks so you can reach T.hold and set up your combo. Given that TES traditional layout with Moxen and EtW isn't suited to "slow down the Game" I doubt it's more effective to sit on an untapped Island rather than aggressively cantripping into the win. Using Flusterstorms to protect LEDs from discard is a strange idea, as you can simply play them and keep them safe from discard anyways.
Flusterstorm is fine for slower decks in the combo mirror, but this deck is not one of them. You mix a "slow" approach to storm with "fast" ones in a single deck. Its fine if you pair Flusterstorm with High Tide or Cabal Ritual as those accelerators need time to gain their full potential, but if you run low-powered, fast cards like Moxen and RoFs, you can't take the control-seat for the first turns.
It's pretty much the same problem I have with the basics: You can't run plenty of cards which mainly support the Belcher-Mode, if your average gameplan is to work with 3 IMS because of the basics. It's an unsolvable strategic dualism we can see in other matchups like D&T or Team America as well, as the question, if you go for a slow and steady manabase with Basics and get wrecked by Hymn/Thalia/etc. or if you try to race Hymn/Thalia/etc. by fetching Duals and get wrecked by Wasteland, has no definitive answer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ManCharm
In testing of the basics, I found that I was indeed more resilient to wasteland, but the games go slower, making me a lot more susceptible to discard and permanent based hate like Thalia. I haven't tested it enough for hard numbers, but I feel like with all the reanimator and BUG delver, it's better to just get 'em dead since their clock is so fast. It's likely due to my lack of experience/misplays, but BUG feels like a 70-30 matchup if I let it go past 2. It seems if we're willing to move in basics then high power mana sources like cabal ritual seem more valuable. Perhaps I'm assessing the matchup incorrectly though.
We have 2 legacy events weekly where I am, and its only between 12-15 regulars so there's a small amount of inbreeding, making testing hard to derive accurate results.
The bolded part is the natural conclusion of needing up to 3 IMS' if you start the Game with an Island and the resulting dualism I described before. TES isn't suited to come back from being hit by Hymn+Wasteland because of the decks low-powered manasources which can't make up for the cardloss caused by Hymn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
If you opt to run the pair of Wipeaway, it's effectively the same as Decay in the miracles match-up. Ben Weinburg only ran two Decay in his side this past weekend and took second.
We should not miss that Miracles was really underplayed that weekend and that WipeAway also has to deal with spheres and stuff, if it takes Decays spot and 4 mana to bounce a Thorn is hardcore, not to talk about the auto-loss you suffer once your opponent drops the second resistor, because you can't tear them appart one by one. I'm not too troubled with the possibility of a 3cc card on top to flip to Counterbalance either, rendering the Split Second ineffective, but the total number of only 2 actual outs to a resolved Counterbalance is worrying me.
In regards to a list with basics: For a european metagame I would rather replace the Island with a Tropical one, so Wasteland can't take out your access to green mana that easily, which allows you to board Decays even against decks which feature Wastelands. (ergo Tropical + Bayou in the 75)
Edit: Chris, here is the requested list I run atm:
Quote:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
3 Crystal Vein
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Ad Nauseam
Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Planar Void
1 Duress
1 Bribery
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
We should not miss that Miracles was really underplayed that weekend and that WipeAway also has to deal with spheres and stuff, if it takes Decays spot and 4 mana to bounce a Thorn is hardcore, not to talk about the auto-loss you suffer once your opponent drops the second resistor, because you can't tear them appart one by one. I'm not too troubled with the possibility of a 3cc card on top to flip to Counterbalance either, rendering the Split Second ineffective, but the total number of only 2 actual outs to a resolved Counterbalance is worrying me.
In regards to a list with basics: For a european metagame I would rather replace the Island with a Tropical one, so Wasteland can't take out your access to green mana that easily, which allows you to board Decays even against decks which feature Wastelands. (ergo Tropical + Bayou in the 75)
It's really hard to preach about how basics are bad when Swamp is better than Bayou in most instances and then you run three colorless lands in a three color deck that wants RB on turn two. I doubt you've even tried them, more than one person in this thread as vouched that they're great, Magic is more than just theory based strategies.
How many games do you come back against two artifact hate pieces anyway? Not too many I imagine, you would need a third land to win after Decay either way as GB can't be cast with a Volcanic, making most instances where it might as well be Wipe Away.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
It's really hard to preach about how basics are bad when Swamp is better than Bayou in most instances and then you run three colorless lands in a three color deck that wants RB on turn two. I doubt you've even tried them, more than one person in this thread as vouched that they're great, Magic is more than just theory based strategies.
I wasn't talking about Swamp or Bayou (which is only a matter of SB space) as mentioned a few post above. It's about Island, which doesn't contribute to "BR on turn two" either. The Island and the Sol Lands are both different directions to adress longer games (like most Games against blue are anyways), but one option gives me the confidence to play and succeed without Moxen, while the other is not. Both approaches calculate with 3 IMS total. My own testing never convinced me that Basics + Moxen are better suited to survive longer games than Duals and Sol Lands, just because the Sol Lands can equalize the mana-loss caused by Wasteland (not the color-loss however; something not even Moxen can nearly guarantee).
Get me right gentlemen, as the following is not meant to be taken personal, but some users this thread has seen over the last year vouched for various stuff and on/off techs like Cabal Ritual + Gemstone Mine and I'm glad we never took that as an absolute testament of superiority, but kept questioning our own conclusions to keep the development-wheel spinning.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
I wasn't talking about Swamp or Bayou (which is only a matter of SB space) as mentioned a few post above. It's about Island, which doesn't contribute to "BR on turn two" either. The Island and the Sol Lands are both different directions to adress longer games (like most Games against blue are anyways), but one option gives me the confidence to play and succeed without Moxen, while the other is not. Both approaches calculate with 3 IMS total. My own testing never convinced me that Basics + Moxen are better suited to survive longer games than Duals and Sol Lands, just because the Sol Lands can equalize the mana-loss caused by Wasteland (not the color-loss however; something not even Moxen can nearly guarantee).
Get me right gentlemen, as the following is not meant to be taken personal, but some users this thread has seen over the last year vouched for various stuff and on/off techs like Cabal Ritual + Gemstone Mine and I'm glad we never took that as an absolute testament of superiority, but kept questioning our own conclusions to keep the development-wheel spinning.
TES's strength has never been a longer game which is what the "Sol Lands" are attempting to do, the problem with the longer game plan is you simply become a worse version of ANT as in a longer game Cabal Ritual is better than Rite of Flame. Basics paired with Moxen is something you're not understanding since you haven't tried it:
T1 - Island, Ponder.
T2 - Misty Rainforest, Rite of Flame and then Chrome Mox or Lotus Petal (both provide the third color of mana necessary to win on turn two while avoiding Wasteland. Use your fetches accordingly to what you can spare onto the Mox, it's not that difficult.)
These things said, I'm not likely going to abandon green for any larger event coming up. But I think it's worth attempting to see if it's actually necessary or not.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
TES's strength has never been a longer game which is what the "Sol Lands" are attempting to do, the problem with the longer game plan is you simply become a worse version of ANT as in a longer game Cabal Ritual is better than Rite of Flame. Basics paired with Moxen is something you're not understanding since you haven't tried it:
T1 - Island, Ponder.
T2 - Misty Rainforest, Rite of Flame and then Chrome Mox or Lotus Petal (both provide the third color of mana necessary to win on turn two while avoiding Wasteland. Use your fetches accordingly to what you can spare onto the Mox, it's not that difficult.)
These things said, I'm not likely going to abandon green for any larger event coming up. But I think it's worth attempting to see if it's actually necessary or not.
Yeah, it "has never been" it's strength and I'm experimenting if it's not possible to change that. I agree that in a longer game Cabal Ritual has advantages due to it's +3 in mana, so I wanted to explore if I can't distribute the pressure on several +2 sources to make up for RoFs limits.
I'm well aware about the gameplan with Island. Seeing it as given that you have a Fetch and a Petal or a Mox with the fitting imprint at hand (aka 3 IMS) in the face of mulligans/Discard/FoW/Stifle/Daze/Pierce/etc. is not convincing even if we ignore the remaining requirements for a turn 2 combo like having access to a Tutor/Wish and at least 3 more mana. It's fine if the aggressive build works out, but for me it's not the case atm. :)
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
I'm well aware about the gameplan with Island. Seeing it as given that you have a Fetch and a Petal or a Mox with the fitting imprint at hand (aka 3 IMS) in the face of mulligans/Discard/FoW/Stifle/Daze/Pierce/etc. is not convincing even if we ignore the remaining requirements for a turn 2 combo like having access to a Tutor/Wish and at least 3 more mana. It's fine if the aggressive build works out, but for me it's not the case atm. :)
The deck is roughly 40% mana and you think it's going to be tough to find/have 3 sources of mana on turns 2-3? Discard and Stifle are very rarely in the same lists, Spell Pierce usually only ever see two copies in a list. Daze, Force of Will and mulligans (Which we do less frequently now due to additional lands and Probes) are the common issues I see here, but in the example listed above, the Island could easily be the mana source that pays for Daze. If you're expecting to play against all five of those cards regularly, you have the wrong deck.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Flusterstorm in ANT was introduced by Carsten to slow down opposing combo decks so you can reach T.hold and set up your combo. Given that TES traditional layout with Moxen and EtW isn't suited to "slow down the Game" I doubt it's more effective to sit on an untapped Island rather than aggressively cantripping into the win. Using Flusterstorms to protect LEDs from discard is a strange idea, as you can simply play them and keep them safe from discard anyways.
Flusterstorm is fine for slower decks in the combo mirror, but this deck is not one of them. You mix a "slow" approach to storm with "fast" ones in a single deck. Its fine if you pair Flusterstorm with High Tide or Cabal Ritual as those accelerators need time to gain their full potential, but if you run low-powered, fast cards like Moxen and RoFs, you can't take the control-seat for the first turns.
It's pretty much the same problem I have with the basics: You can't run plenty of cards which mainly support the Belcher-Mode, if your average gameplan is to work with 3 IMS because of the basics. It's an unsolvable strategic dualism we can see in other matchups like D&T or Team America as well, as the question, if you go for a slow and steady manabase with Basics and get wrecked by Hymn/Thalia/etc. or if you try to race Hymn/Thalia/etc. by fetching Duals and get wrecked by Wasteland, has no definitive answer.
What I meant by Fluster "defending" LEDs is that, were you to get Duressed by an opponent on the play, I'd rather reveal a dangerous hand + fluster than a dangerous hand + surgical, because a storm opponent can just gimp you and pivot to ad nauseam or other lines to play around surgical, whereas the opponent HAS to make the effort to take Flusterstorm at some point, so I might get to keep my combo hand intact.
moreover, i think you are misunderstanding the role I think Flusterstorm should be playing in the Storm mirror. as we are generally the faster combo, use fluster as a tempo-counter to choke the opponent on the 1-2 turns they could actually attempt to disrupt
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wonderPreaux
What I meant by Fluster "defending" LEDs is that, were you to get Duressed by an opponent on the play, I'd rather reveal a dangerous hand + fluster than a dangerous hand + surgical, because a storm opponent can just gimp you and pivot to ad nauseam or other lines to play around surgical, whereas the opponent HAS to make the effort to take Flusterstorm at some point, so I might get to keep my combo hand intact.
moreover, i think you are misunderstanding the role I think Flusterstorm should be playing in the Storm mirror. as we are generally the faster combo, use fluster as a tempo-counter to choke the opponent on the 1-2 turns they could actually attempt to disrupt
Got you now on the LED topic. I don't think we can afford to keep an island untapped to counter potential disruption if this means we can't dig for our own combo
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Got you now on the LED topic. I don't think we can afford to keep an island untapped to counter potential disruption if this means we can't dig for our own combo
If you have to choose between digging and Flusterstorm, dig. The point of Fluster in the Storm mirror is to tide you over on the turn you need to get that last land drop before combo, or get to that last combat step with goblins or w/e. Here's a better way to think about it, you open this:
Rite of Flame
Dark Ritual
Polluted Delta
Underground Sea
Ad Nauseam
Lion's Eye Diamond
Flusterstorm/Surgical Extraction
I would much rather be holding Flusterstorm as opposed to Surgical there, as my hand just needs to not get hit for 1 turn and then I win. And while my example may seem a bit stilted, its to illustrate the point that TES doesn't need to dig as much as something like ANT, since we play a higher proportion of gas in the first place. The problem I see with Surgical in the Storm mirror is that it makes your discard generally better, but you don't want to be exchanging discard, you want to just combo off. Flusterstorm is something I can play as a Time Walk so I can combo off on t2 or w/e.
And that's just the Storm mirror. Flusterstorm is probably equally good as Extraction against Reanimator because what you lose in needing mana open you gain in resiliency to their Dazes/FoW. Flusterstorm can also punish mono-U combo keeping on single cantrips or other sketchy keeps.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
I don't get how Flusterstorm is significantly better than discard in these scenarios to justify SB slots. You can trade discard for discard to protect your hand or take opposing counterspells while Flusterstorm is a pure defensive tool which can even block your hellbent but not strip a counter.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Hi all! second time posting here but long time reader and I have finally completed my paper list online giving me more chances to play legacy (1 to test for GP to get Pro points as recently Q for PT and 2 so I can play my fav deck as every weekend I'm grinding a PPTQ at the moment) and thus feel like I can start to give more input as I play more and more with the list (currently in my 3rd daily at 2-1).
I can see the argument for fluster storm but I prefer surgical...its more versatile and with a deck like this being versatile is important I just had a dredge player instant concede when I cast surgical...I don't feel like I would want to bring flusterstorm in vs any deck I wouldn't bring in surgical and surgical can come in against more lists.
now if we was discussing using flusterstorm to fight flusterstorm/counters I could maybe see it but I'm not having trouble in that area and I don't think the deck struggles against counters due to the about of discard we have and angles we can take.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
I don't get how Flusterstorm is significantly better than discard in these scenarios to justify SB slots. You can trade discard for discard to protect your hand or take opposing counterspells while Flusterstorm is a pure defensive tool which can even block your hellbent but not strip a counter.
Countering their t1 discard beats discarding it in any scenario where they have more than 1 discard spell, which can be pretty real given that ANT should likely be looking for discard or a fast combo against TES. Moreover, if I discard their discard, then they simply cantrip instead, whereas a counter forces them to tap out, so their worse off in terms of development.
Regarding Blue combo, you use the Fluster as a way to choke off their tap-outs for Show and Tell, since they would need 2 FoW to beat fluster, or, if you do have a fast combo hand, you just squelch their setup spells to throw them off balance. What I like about Flusterstorm in our current discussed configuration (4c, no pyroblasts) is that it provides different sorts of value to multiple unfriendly matchups. Just because Karsten introduced it in ANT as a way to slow the game down for Cabal Ritual doesn't mean you have to use it that way in any given situation, and if you insist on doing so, then I can see why you'd have a hard time justifying its use.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wonderPreaux
Countering their t1 discard beats discarding it in any scenario where they have more than 1 discard spell, which can be pretty real given that ANT should likely be looking for discard or a fast combo against TES. Moreover, if I discard their discard, then they simply cantrip instead, whereas a counter forces them to tap out, so their worse off in terms of development.
Regarding Blue combo, you use the Fluster as a way to choke off their tap-outs for Show and Tell, since they would need 2 FoW to beat fluster, or, if you do have a fast combo hand, you just squelch their setup spells to throw them off balance. What I like about Flusterstorm in our current discussed configuration (4c, no pyroblasts) is that it provides different sorts of value to multiple unfriendly matchups. Just because Karsten introduced it in ANT as a way to slow the game down for Cabal Ritual doesn't mean you have to use it that way in any given situation, and if you insist on doing so, then I can see why you'd have a hard time justifying its use.
Wasn't it the intent to protect your hand from discard or disrupt your opponents combo with the help of Flusterstorm? If your opponent is stripped from his/her discard and has no way to interact with you, so he/she goes cantripping instead, isn't the goal achieved here? Sure there is a difference if your opponent has two discard spells or from a pure tempo-perspective in regards to Hymn being countered that way, but discard serves double duty for your gameplan unlike Flusterstorm which is what I care about :)
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Wasn't it the intent to protect your hand from discard or disrupt your opponents combo with the help of Flusterstorm? If your opponent is stripped from his/her discard and has no way to interact with you, so he/she goes cantripping instead, isn't the goal achieved here? Sure there is a difference if your opponent has two discard spells or from a pure tempo-perspective in regards to Hymn being countered that way, but discard serves double duty for your gameplan unlike Flusterstorm which is what I care about :)
You still have discard though, do you not? In storm mirrors, fluster would be replacing the underwhelming EtW and likely putting a Tutor into the SB to enable the Ad Nauseam line, that or a Chrome Mox if you have a Tutor SB already. seems like a fine tradeup to me swapping EtW/Mox for getting to tempo them out of a turn. Whereas against BUG or something, the Flusterstorm serves an important purpose of stopping not just Hymn, but also letting you defend from stifle on other fetches and doing it off of your basic Island
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wonderPreaux
You still have discard though, do you not? In storm mirrors, fluster would be replacing the underwhelming EtW and likely putting a Tutor into the SB to enable the Ad Nauseam line, that or a Chrome Mox if you have a Tutor SB already. seems like a fine tradeup to me swapping EtW/Mox for getting to tempo them out of a turn. Whereas against BUG or something, the Flusterstorm serves an important purpose of stopping not just Hymn, but also letting you defend from stifle on other fetches and doing it off of your basic Island
I was used to swap the MB EtW with the SB Discard Spell to achieve similar. I could go that far and point at the increased Chance of the "T1 - Swamp, Duress / T2 - Volcanic, combo" scenario if you run more discard from the SB than Flusterstorms or protect your second Fetch from Stifle that way.
I see the value of making your opponent waste mana and a turn just to run into Flusterstorm. but the card is plain reactionary and does nothing against opponents counterspells, Resistors, Sneak Attacks, etc. while Duress can get rid of those problems early
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
If you opt to run the pair of Wipeaway, it's effectively the same as Decay in the miracles match-up. Ben WIEnburg only ran two Decay in his side this past weekend and took second.
My match ups were as followed. Ben Ball and I only played 2 Abrupt Decay's b/c we only wanted them for Miracles and wanted to add the Empty to the SB for RUG which we expected to have a bigger showing. My 2 losses in the swiss were to UWR Delver and shardless bug.
rd 1 burn
rd 2 miracles
rd 3 maverick
rd 4 storm mirror
rd 5 Elves
rd 6 punishing lands
rd 7 sneak and show
rd 8 RUG delver
rd 9 blue lands
rd 10 uwr delver
rd 11 shardless bug
rd 12 death and taxes
rd 13 sneak and show
rd 14 maverick
rd 15 ID
t8 elves
t4 mirror
Finals Bug Delver
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Going to be going to a new town that hopefully has a Legacy scene. Trying to brush the dust off my decks.
Previously I had no U. Seas, and so was using Watery Graves as a subpar substitute.
I now have a U. Sea, a tropical Island, a bayou and all the fetches and shocks. I have playsets of Gemstone mines, city of brass, and mana confluence.
Do I create the 'correct' manabase with Steam vents as the Volcanic Island and a single Watery Grave masquerading as U. Sea # 2?
Or do I splash with the rainbow lands?
Or do I just run a different deck since the lifeloss from the shocks/rainbow is too much for the deck to handle?
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ellistann
Going to be going to a new town that hopefully has a Legacy scene. Trying to brush the dust off my decks.
Previously I had no U. Seas, and so was using Watery Graves as a subpar substitute.
I now have a U. Sea, a tropical Island, a bayou and all the fetches and shocks. I have playsets of Gemstone mines, city of brass, and mana confluence.
Do I create the 'correct' manabase with Steam vents as the Volcanic Island and a single Watery Grave masquerading as U. Sea # 2?
Or do I splash with the rainbow lands?
Or do I just run a different deck since the lifeloss from the shocks/rainbow is too much for the deck to handle?
The deck can handle the lifeloss from Rainbows, but the lack of shuffling can bite your ass. You need two black and two red sources to fetch anyways in case of Wasteland, so I would not bother with Rainbows. If you have a Badlands you can use it as your Volcanic #2 to minimize the damage dealt to yourself. If this is not an option available, you can either accept that you will lose games due to the increased Self-inflicted damage (and be more conservative with Probes/AN) or react via deckbuilding options like squeezing more Moxen into the deck to Balance the relation between IMS/flipped cards total for AN (talking about up to 4 Moxen)
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Hi all!i played the deck sunday at a ~30 ppl tournament,ending undefeated in swiss,but losing the first match of the top 8...my list was:
4 burning wish
4 infernal tutor
1 empty the warrens
1 ad nauseam
2 chrome mox
4 Lotus petal
4 lion's eye diamond
4 dark ritual
4 rite of flame
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 cabal therapy
3 duress
4 gitaxian probe
1 island
1 swamp
2 underground sea
2 volcanic island
4 polluted Delta
2 misty Rainforest
1 bloodstained mire
// SIDEBOARD
3 abrupt decay
3 xantid swarm
1 Bayou
2 pyroclasm
1 thoughtseize
1 past in flames
1 massacre
1 void snare
1 Empty the warrens
1 tendrils of agony
Some thoughts about the list:
-thoughtseize wasn't good,i'll cut it
-never wished for massacre,but i think it's a good card to have in the sideboard
-i don't really liked basic lands,but i think they're ok if you expect a lot of tempo decks
-i never missed the 3rd mox and the sideboard infernal tutor
I faced:
-miracles (2:0)
-UR landstill (2:1)
-death and taxes (2:1)
-ID
-ID
Top 8
-miracles (1:2) he was playing a 4 ponder list with 2 flusterstorm and a vendilion mb,and another 2 and 2 in the sb
Has anyone tested sb surgical?how does it works?
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arguru
Has anyone tested sb surgical?how does it works?
Congrats on the finish! I have been playing surgical online in dailys and really liking it as a one of helps to clear up some matches were you dont really have options to sideboard in - Storm, reanimator, dredge, manaless dredge and alot of these matchups can help lead to a quick concede.
Not sure if its worth the slot over something else but currently Im going over different sideboard options - planar void, returns etc.
I'm trying a one of lim duls in the maindeck over the third chrome mox but have yet to see it over 8 rounds of legacy so if anyone has any input that would be great and also Im really struggling vs miracles if anyone has any tips....yesterday I went turn 1 (on draw, i had probe) make 16 goblins due to 3 lands in hand and he had to find either a terminus or a brainstorm to put his in hand terminus to the top..he got there but game 2 was a disaster.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
halfie44
Congrats on the finish! I have been playing surgical online in dailys and really liking it as a one of helps to clear up some matches were you dont really have options to sideboard in - Storm, reanimator, dredge, manaless dredge and alot of these matchups can help lead to a quick concede.
Not sure if its worth the slot over something else but currently Im going over different sideboard options - planar void, returns etc.
I'm trying a one of lim duls in the maindeck over the third chrome mox but have yet to see it over 8 rounds of legacy so if anyone has any input that would be great and also Im really struggling vs miracles if anyone has any tips....yesterday I went turn 1 (on draw, i had probe) make 16 goblins due to 3 lands in hand and he had to find either a terminus or a brainstorm to put his in hand terminus to the top..he got there but game 2 was a disaster.
My ususal problem with extraction effects is, that they do nothing against disruption/enablers in your opponents hand unlike discard. Reanimator and Dredge are just a marginal part of the metagame, TES can play around Surgical and ANT will likely pick your hand appart anyways before they combo. Most of the time the card is fighting windmills for the price of carddisadvantage unless your opponent is greedy or stupid and gets blown out by it or you can snatch a random second copy of a card from their hand. Even messing with SDT or Brainstorm is just minimal impact to actually justify Surgicals inclusion.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
I played the new list last night, it felt very good. I ended up siding in Surgical versus a UBR Pyromancer deck has he had Snapcasters, Therapies, and Digs.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
How do you guys feel about changing 4 cabal therapy and 3 duress for 4 duress and 3 cabal therapy?
Since I've put the 4th infernal tutor in the main and took off EtW from the main, I chosed only a few times the EtW route, and so the EtW interaction with Cabal Therapy hasn't compensated for the times Therapy missed (due to lack of knowledge of the enemy deck, brainstorms in response, different counters in hand). In all of these cases, duress would have worked. It's only bad against hatebears, but I also wonder how many times we had the chance to hit hatebears with cabal therapy to compensate.
I'm going to a ~50 people tournament this weekend, so I hope the experience can bring me some enlightment about it. Still, I'm pretty confidant it's at least an ok exchange (also, since it's a new season on the tournament people may have changed completely their decks, so missing therapies would be awkward)
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ThiefSlayer
How do you guys feel about changing 4 cabal therapy and 3 duress for 4 duress and 3 cabal therapy?
Since I've put the 4th infernal tutor in the main and took off EtW from the main, I chosed only a few times the EtW route, and so the EtW interaction with Cabal Therapy hasn't compensated for the times Therapy missed (due to lack of knowledge of the enemy deck, brainstorms in response, different counters in hand). In all of these cases, duress would have worked. It's only bad against hatebears, but I also wonder how many times we had the chance to hit hatebears with cabal therapy to compensate.
I'm going to a ~50 people tournament this weekend, so I hope the experience can bring me some enlightment about it. Still, I'm pretty confidant it's at least an ok exchange (also, since it's a new season on the tournament people may have changed completely their decks, so missing therapies would be awkward)
I still play the Empty main so that 4 Therapy makes sense for me, if you're not? Swap the discard numbers, it's such a small percentage where it'll be barely noticeable (if you want to see the difference put the 4th Duress upside down inside the sleeve, this way when you draw it you can know what would've been more effective).
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ThiefSlayer
How do you guys feel about changing 4 cabal therapy and 3 duress for 4 duress and 3 cabal therapy?
Since I've put the 4th infernal tutor in the main and took off EtW from the main, I chosed only a few times the EtW route, and so the EtW interaction with Cabal Therapy hasn't compensated for the times Therapy missed (due to lack of knowledge of the enemy deck, brainstorms in response, different counters in hand). In all of these cases, duress would have worked. It's only bad against hatebears, but I also wonder how many times we had the chance to hit hatebears with cabal therapy to compensate.
I'm going to a ~50 people tournament this weekend, so I hope the experience can bring me some enlightment about it. Still, I'm pretty confidant it's at least an ok exchange (also, since it's a new season on the tournament people may have changed completely their decks, so missing therapies would be awkward)
I guess in practice you only witness a difference after dozens of goldfishes and whenever you plan to keep EtW playlines for 6 or 8 mana viable at least from the Sideboard. I however suspect the real problem here is your Therapy timing. Casting the Spell without gained Knowledge of the enemies deck, not immediately profiting from Brainstorms hiding counterspells or such stuff are preventable mistakes in general. Exceptions to the rule of casting your discard close/in your combo turns only apply in the combo mirror. Missing with a Therapy should usually be a good sign for your combo :)
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
I have an IQ in two weeks in Columbia, and I was wondering if the overall meta shift was hard enough to warrant trying something new on a bigger level. I am pretty comfy with the gemstone mines, but I see the value of the basics after some testing, I have had a few situations where I ponder and would've kept had the land inside the ponder been G Mine but it was a basic and forced a shuffle/ drew one and it choked me to death.
Basically (no pun intended) do you think the basics are powerful enough rn to warrant a relatively unfamiliar list?
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Afterthought. It also means I have only 1 green source to fight delver decks if I bring in decay (BUG delver for example)
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ManCharm
Basically (no pun intended) do you think the basics are powerful enough rn to warrant a relatively unfamiliar list
I'm not quite sure what your intent is here. Maybe it's because it's Saturday 6am and I'm in a subway home, boozed and with a napping GF drooling at my coat lol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ManCharm
Afterthought. It also means I have only 1 green source to fight delver decks if I bring in decay (BUG delver for example)
You should not board Decay against BUG Delver/Team America. They don't have permanents you need to destroy to be able to win on your own.
P.S. Forgive my usual drunk Fr/Sa morning posts. 😅
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
I'm not quite sure what your intent is here. Maybe it's because it's Saturday 6am and I'm in a subway home, boozed and with a napping GF drooling at my coat lol.
You should not board Decay against BUG Delver/Team America. They don't have permanents you need to destroy to be able to win on your own.
P.S. Forgive my usual drunk Fr/Sa morning posts. 😅
It's all good ;) hope you had a good time!
I just know this deck's value is based on pilot familiarity, and making changes before big events makes me a bit nervous, but I guess I'll never know if it's actually better or not if I don't just go for it.
Also, thanks for the tip, I wasn't sure if it was right or not, just killing their goyf/delver seemed valuable to buy time but maybe I'm addressing that matchup incorrectly
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ManCharm
It's all good ;) hope you had a good time!
I just know this deck's value is based on pilot familiarity, and making changes before big events makes me a bit nervous, but I guess I'll never know if it's actually better or not if I don't just go for it.
Also, thanks for the tip, I wasn't sure if it was right or not, just killing their goyf/delver seemed valuable to buy time but maybe I'm addressing that matchup incorrectly
Sorry, that I wasn't able to grasp your point earlier today. After a late Breakfast and a even later lunch I now know it was about the insecurity of switching from Gemstones to Basics right before a tournament and the different gameplan in case of appearing Wastelands. Here, I would dare to advice to NOT unneccessarily play around Wastelands without actually KNOWING that your opponent indeed runs a serious manadenial/Tempo plan, whichi s a recurring topic as unlike in ANT, the pretty general opener or fetching a Basic, can bite your ass in TES (also depending on how you use your Wishes and playlines to cast discard off one land, and Rituals off a second Black Source).
No need to thank, pal. Killing a Delver and delaying a clock sounds fine on paper, but this matchup is primary a race against their Discard/manadenial rather than their creatures. Decay vs. Wasteland isn't a hot plan anyways on top of more 2cc cards to flip to Ad Nauseam
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
I was watching back some of the feature matches. Bryant's match against Todd Anderson is absolutely insane.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Hey guys!
I'm setting up some social media pages for an upcoming TES website I'm building, check out these pages:
https://twitter.com/mtgtheepicstorm
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1060019600691940/
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
This is great - I allready applied for the FB group (Samo) :)
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Aw, it's on Facebook where I don't have an account :(
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Already inside :D
But... Why should FB be better tan this forum?
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Togores
Already inside :D
But... Why should FB be better tan this forum?
Facebook, Twitter and the webpage are a Multimedia offense to get the archetype out of this thread as the decks only source of deck related content, making stuff like the primer & development less depending on TheSource. The upcoming Website is likely structured like a digital primer and will not feature options for direct feedback, so the Facebook page is serving for that and otherwise deck-related discussion with much quicker feedback than it is possible in the Forum thanks to notifications (like via FB App).
I'm looking forward using the Facebook group for setting up meetings during GP Lille :)
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
Just applied for the group (D Calf), will be good to organise meetings at GP Lille
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
I think you guys are really under selling island. First turn Cantrip into second turn Sea or Volcanic into the appropriate ritual and then Lion's Eye Diamond often suffices, I rarely ever have trouble with my mana as red isn't needed until the combo turn. Here's the thing about the red mana, sometimes it's not needed until post-Ad Nauseam.
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The EPIC Storm
Decklist as of 1/27/2015
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
I wonder, if running two Volcanics makes sense anymore if you run basics, as the second copy of the UR Dual was included to maintain a fetchable red source in case you naturally or intentionally open a game with Volcanic and it gets destroyed by Wasteland. If the Volcanic is indeed just fetched/played the turn you want to go off, there is not much to gain from a second copy anymore as you'll open rather with Basics than with a Dual in the face of Wasteland and against non-Wasteland, you sure prefer an increased color-selection. So I suggest switching the manabase back to the stable 8 Fetch/5 Lands configuration with the following Layout which will also fight iffy land configurations in your opener:
Quote:
suggested manabase
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
Agree with my analysis?
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
The problem I see with this is you can't always hold the Volcanic if it's your only land in your opening hand in a thirteen land deck. You gain very little by having an additional fetchland over a second searchable red source in a Wasteland format. Although, that slot could be Bayou in order to save a sideboard slot, I still would want a second searchable red source.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
What are your opinions on running 1 Volc + 1 Badlands instead of 2 Volc? ANT has been doing that for quite a while and it works. You still have a second R source to fetch up, but you keep the amount of lands you can naturally draw and that don't produce B to a minimum.
I just think that the TES manabase is getting closer and closer to ANT's mana base at this point. ANT has more cantrips than TES, yet they don't miss the second UR land and can run a RB land instead.
