[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

A thought experiment that was sparked some 20 pages back by discussion on trying to make pernicious deed more effective and the miracles MU a little better. List is far from tuned but may be fun to play around with.

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Voice of Resurgence

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Path to Exile
2 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay

4 Oath of Nissa
2 Bitterblossom
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Contamination

4 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Garruk Relentless

2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower

Everything Brael said about drs is totally true. But is 1 of worth it, when you need it at certain points in the game, against laterally select matches. And if multiples are needed, how many, and what sort of list would be run to exclude other key elements replaced by drs.

As for making deeds more effective, run flip nissa and ultimate her on their lands, then pop deed. Won me a few games

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Originally Posted by 4554551//

Everything Brael said about drs is totally true. But is 1 of worth it, when you need it at certain points in the game, against laterally select matches. And if multiples are needed, how many, and what sort of list would be run to exclude other key elements replaced by drs.

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I like to run the full playset between MB and SB. I usually stick to 2 main and 2 SB. Any time Veteran Explorers come out such as against Eldrazi and Miracles I bring DRS in so that I still have acceleration.

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Originally Posted by jungleman3955

A thought experiment that was sparked some 20 pages back by discussion on trying to make pernicious deed more effective and the miracles MU a little better. List is far from tuned but may be fun to play around with.

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Voice of Resurgence

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Path to Exile
2 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay

4 Oath of Nissa
2 Bitterblossom
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Contamination

4 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Garruk Relentless

2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower

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Wants to "make Deed more effective", suggests playing Bitterblossom. Do you really want to run Contamination to make Deed more effective vs. a meta where the average mana curve stops at 3..? Just take a moment and think about that one, will you..?

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Originally Posted by 4554551//

Everything Brael said about drs is totally true. But is 1 of worth it, when you need it at certain points in the game, against laterally select matches. And if multiples are needed, how many, and what sort of list would be run to exclude other key elements replaced by drs.

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So now both Brael and I have said "run DRS, b/c reasons" and you still ask "Is it worth it" and can we provide some lists..? You know there's >300+ pages worth of discussion and lists here, right..? You could also Google some lists, put some effort into it. DRS is one of the key elements, hence pretty much every list runs between 1 and 3, on average (notice how this is never 0). And if we're going to start questioning why the hell we'd run 1-off green creatures in a deck w/ SDT & GSZ, why are we bothering with this deck at all..? And if that'd be a valid argument not to run a 1-off green creature, then what is your reasoning behind "1 Abrupt Decay is a perfectly fine spot removal suite b/c I can find it so easily"..?

I don't think you're listening. Or are capable of listening. You're great at being actively unpleasant though, so good for you. The question is centred around if running multiples, what is it at the expense of. Decks I see on mtg top 8 mostly run 1. So I'm curious what people that aren't you are cutting from the usual for the extras. I don't meant specific cards as choices vary, but rather that roles that those cards had filled in the deck are being lessened in order to run multiple shamans. Draw? Pressure? Removal?
If running one, when does one zenith for it. Because what was said earlier is that he's great early against miracles. Fantastic. Is that a you're spending your turn 2 looking for it, or just hope it comes up at some point?
The difference between drs and decay is decay is a catch all answer. You need it to shut down certain situations. Be it a perstermite or a counterbalance.
Zenithing for a drs will never give you the kind of game changing result as abrupting a perstermite in response to a twin. You also shouldn't have to do it twice. Unlike having multiple shamans.
If Zenithing for the single drs is correct, when is it more correct than getting a scooze for example. If not turn 2, is that 1 mana important? When is it important? Or are you simply happy to come across it when you do? In which case it goes counter to the basic premise of nic fit which is every peice is there for a specific reason.
Does anyone else have input in the matter?

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Originally Posted by 4554551//

If running one, when does one zenith for it.

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Why do you have to GSZ for a 1 of? It can just as easily be your 5th copy of explorer in that case, for the purposes of having early acceleration.

My acceleration suite is 4 Veteran Explorer, 1 Phyrexian Tower, 4 GSZ (for Arbor), 2 DRS. In SB games when its relevant it's -4 Explorer, +1 Carpet of Flowers, +2 DRS, +1 Sakura Tribe Elder.

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Or are you simply happy to come across it when you do? In which case it goes counter to the basic premise of nic fit which is every peice is there for a specific reason.

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My build of literally every deck I play is built around this principal. Some cards are legit tutor targets some cards are there just so I have the chance to draw them. The CA suite I use lets me see a lot of cards per game, 1 of's are pretty consistent even when I'm not tutoring them.

You'll probably never Zenith a DRS. If you need to Zenith a 1 drop for mana Explorer usually does it better, if you need GY hate, a DRS can't be online before turn 3 (and when he is he'll get one card) while an Ooze can also be on T3 but if you had acceleration he can eat multiple things. I mostly GSZ for 0 for Arbor when I need to use my GSZ for acceleration unless I suspect it's going to die.

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Originally Posted by 4554551//

I don't think you're listening. Or are capable of listening. You're great at being actively unpleasant though, so good for you. The question is centred around if running multiples, what is it at the expense of. Decks I see on mtg top 8 mostly run 1. So I'm curious what people that aren't you are cutting from the usual for the extras. I don't meant specific cards as choices vary, but rather that roles that those cards had filled in the deck are being lessened in order to run multiple shamans. Draw? Pressure? Removal?
If running one, when does one zenith for it. Because what was said earlier is that he's great early against miracles. Fantastic. Is that a you're spending your turn 2 looking for it, or just hope it comes up at some point?
The difference between drs and decay is decay is a catch all answer. You need it to shut down certain situations. Be it a perstermite or a counterbalance.
Zenithing for a drs will never give you the kind of game changing result as abrupting a perstermite in response to a twin. You also shouldn't have to do it twice. Unlike having multiple shamans.
If Zenithing for the single drs is correct, when is it more correct than getting a scooze for example. If not turn 2, is that 1 mana important? When is it important? Or are you simply happy to come across it when you do? In which case it goes counter to the basic premise of nic fit which is every peice is there for a specific reason.
Does anyone else have input in the matter?

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You don't get the answer you want to hear and you're unwilling to put some effort into finding those things out and getting to understand those things yourself so you'll shop around until the next fish bites? Cool. And you only need 1 Abrupt Decay b/c a deck w/ 3/4 SDT, 4 Ponder and 4 Brainstorm can't possibly find a 2nd Counterbalance..? And Splinter Twin is a real Legacy deck? I was not aware of that. Well, excuse me for being rude.

So....after tilt losing to a dedicate life gain deck in legacy....

Here's the list
Maindeck
Lands (22)
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Bayou
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp

Creatures (15)
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Siege Rhino
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
Spells (24)
3 Path to Exile
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Vindicate
1 Painful Truths
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Celestial Purge
2 Thoughtseize
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Reclamation Sage

@jbone: Celestial Purge..? To what end?

Brael, what matchups do you take out the explorers?
Would you still take them out against miracles if you weren't replacing them with other ramp?
I'm really curious to see your list. Having drs as essentially a 5th Explorer seems valid then..
What mechanics do you feel you compromise on to have the extras? Draw? Recursion?

@###### # - I wouldnt run Drs in this deck at all. I dont think it is worth a slot as you rarely gsz for it and drawing it early just turns on the bolt/plow/decay that decks will usually have sitting relatively dead otherwise. The card is super powerful so the floor on it is high enough that people seem to like it but I personally would rather use the space for additional mid-game tutor targets in a zenith build or if on a bug BS/Ponder build replace it with control cards. That said if you want to run it and want to know what options are best to move around post the current list you are working on and tell people what cards you consider to be open for changing. It is hard to do in the dark as every person has different ideas as to what Nic fit can/should be as I am sure you can tell from even just the last 3 pages.

With respect to Deathrites - I generally run a few in my lists. A few main reasons:

- I don't like running 4 explorers unless I'm playing a very top heavy CMC list. Drawing multiple explorers is pretty awful.
- You need a reasonable number of ramp cards to be able to legimately expect to actually be able to ramp before turn three.
- 8 ramp effects (4 Veterans and 4 Zeniths) is a little low when we are so dependent on drawing a copy of one or the other.
- Deathrite fills a ramp slot like Veteran, but isn't as explosive. In exchange it has significantly more utility and is less of an awful topdeck lategame and has relevance against some matchups as graveyard hate.

I personally like running 3 Veteran Explorer, 1 Sakura-Tribe Elder and 2 DRS + 4 Zeniths for 10 ramp cards if I'm running a standard list in terms of mana needs (normally 1 6-drop, but able to utilise excess mana with abilities / equipment).

As far as compromising other parts of the deck, I generally try to avoid losing out in other categories by doubling up slots. I usually only run 1 slot as a dedicated finisher (e.g. Sigarda) and leave the Rhinos and Grave Titans and Recurring Nightmares at home. Instead I run game ending cards which can also act as removal or card advantage / selection engines like most combat planeswalkers, equipment, or more Tireless Trackers.

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Originally Posted by 4554551//

Brael, what matchups do you take out the explorers?
Would you still take them out against miracles if you weren't replacing them with other ramp?
I'm really curious to see your list. Having drs as essentially a 5th Explorer seems valid then..
What mechanics do you feel you compromise on to have the extras? Draw? Recursion?

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It comes out against Miracles, some Eldrazi builds, and any other misc deck where it feels to me like the opponent is using the Vets better than I am.

If I weren't bringing in other ramp I would leave the Vets in, the last thing you want to do is to cut the mana that lets your deck run.

My current list is posted in the last couple pages, I'm experimenting with a smaller SFM package.

I compromise on having removal early game. Once the draw engine gets going it works out fine but I'm weak to needing Path/Plow on turns 2-3.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

@jbone: Celestial Purge..? To what end?

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Gurmag Angler, Marit Lage token, Griselbrand, Sneak Attack

Another removal spell for DRS, Lily, Young Peezy, Nahiri (which never came up)

@Navsi Explorer does turn into gas in a deck with Tireless Tracker, which I'm still a huge proponent of. It synergizes so well with our game plan

EDIT: I'm a Modern player so maybe this is much less relevant, but it is "Bolt Test" still a factor in why some cards don't see play? I've been trying to find interesting and rogue cards for GSZ targets as of late.

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Has anyone on a junk build ever run Ranger of Eos? There's a lot of things it can tutor and it can sort of function as a 5th GSZ getting us quite a few options like DRS, Explorer, and Safekeeper.

I remember back in the days of DRS in Modern I loved having a Ranger in my Pod list. Though I could always pod into him, here I just have to draw him naturally. Still, it seems to me like a decent value card at 4 mana and the downsides are no worse than Rectors.

Also, because he gets DRS Ranger is one of the few 4 drops that passes both the Bob test, and the general SE test of generating CA so he really seems ideal.

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Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack

EDIT: I'm a Modern player so maybe this is much less relevant, but it is "Bolt Test" still a factor in why some cards don't see play? I've been trying to find interesting and rogue cards for GSZ targets as of late.

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The bolt test is less of a factor in Legacy. Games go longer and the removal is Swords to Plowshares and counterspells so Bolt is less of a big deal. Creatures with sub 4 toughness can still contribute such as Tireless Tracker. Also creatures in Legacy tend to be smaller. Your cards do still need to provide value against 1 mana removal or trade favorably but toughness isn't really a factor. The closest Modern analogy would be a card passing the Path test rather than the Bolt test.

Haven't posted in a while. Been busy busying a house, doing reno, moving in, etc.

I'm noticing lots of frustration with this deck. We all need to relax.
As for design ideas (bear with me, I barely understand the new set), Eldritch Evolution has the most potential, no?

I would consider Eldrazi/Evolution or Junk/Evolution.

I am on junk colors and I have tried the 8 rhino and sfm builds and they have been fun but I am not entirely sold on them. I picked up some birthing pods and would love to hear from the people who are familiar with the pod decks.

Here's what I plan on running this Thursday at my LGS:


Creatures
4 veteran explorer
3 Deathrite shaman
1 voice of resurgence
1 scavenging ooze
1 gaddock teeg
1 eldrazi displacer
1 eternal witness
1 kitchen finks
1 reclamation sage
1 Liliana heretical healer
1 tireless tracker
1 murderous redcap
1 siege rhino
1 thragtusk
1 doomwake giant
1 shriekmaw
1 sun Titan

Instant/sorcery
4 green Suns zenith
4 cabal therapy
2 enlightened tutor

Artifacts
3 birthing pod
1 umezawas jitte

Enchantments
2 pernicious deed
1 sylvan library

Lands
4 windswept Heath
3 verdant catacombs
1 marsh flats
2 bayou
1 Savannah
1 scrubland
1 horizon canopy
2 phyrexian tower
2 forest
2 swamp
1 plains
1 wastes

Sb
1 Pithing needle
2 Ethersworn canonist
1 Choke
1 Garruk, Relentless
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3 Thoughtseize
2 Tormods Crypt
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Abrupt Decay

I feel naked without my STP/PTE but noticed most builds excluded these pieces of spot removal in pod lists. I also added 2 enlightened tutor. I figure this gives me 2 extra copies of Pernicious Deed, Doomwake Giant, Sylvan Librar, Jitte and a lot of other toys post board.

Help me become one of the pod people

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Originally Posted by Warden

Haven't posted in a while. Been busy busying a house, doing reno, moving in, etc.

I'm noticing lots of frustration with this deck. We all need to relax.
As for design ideas (bear with me, I barely understand the new set), Eldritch Evolution has the most potential, no?

I would consider Eldrazi/Evolution or Junk/Evolution.

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It's by far the coolest card in the new set. I'm not sure if it's for this deck though. I've done a days worth of testing with it and although some cool stuff came up, I'm not sure yet if it's the real deal or The Danger Of Cool Things.

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Originally Posted by Luthiereisfun

Help me become one of the pod people

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You're going to get murdered without some meaningful interaction. You need to trade resources with your opponent, but you don't really have the cards to do so.

Also, Horizon Canopy is really, really bad.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

It's by far the coolest card in the new set. I'm not sure if it's for this deck though. I've done a days worth of testing with it and although some cool stuff came up, I'm not sure yet if it's the real deal or The Danger Of Cool Things.

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rather spent 1 mana more for natural order....

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Originally Posted by Brael

You're going to get murdered without some meaningful interaction. You need to trade resources with your opponent, but you don't really have the cards to do so.

Also, Horizon Canopy is really, really bad.

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Why is horizon canopy really really bad? Normally I would play another Savannah or scrubland but I noticed a horizon canopy in Davi's list from the mediocre league and thought to give it a go.

By meaningful interaction are you referring to the lack of spot removal?

Horizon Canopy is bad because it costs you tons of life and our deck is mana hungry so not using it isn't an option. 1 life per turn is too much, and it's not until very late game that you really want to cash it in. It usually costs you 4-6 life per game when you draw it, and that much life is enough to turn our best matchups like Delver into our worst.

And yes, the lack of removal at all is a big deal. In Legacy you can play what you want, but you have to pay the toll. You need a certain amount of removal, discard, and counterspells in order to have a competitive deck and your list just doesn't have it. I did watch some of the mediocre league play, the Pod list literally made me cringe at how bad the lines were.

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Originally Posted by Brael

Horizon Canopy is bad because it costs you tons of life and our deck is mana hungry so not using it isn't an option. 1 life per turn is too much, and it's not until very late game that you really want to cash it in. It usually costs you 4-6 life per game when you draw it, and that much life is enough to turn our best matchups like Delver into our worst.

And yes, the lack of removal at all is a big deal. In Legacy you can play what you want, but you have to pay the toll. You need a certain amount of removal, discard, and counterspells in order to have a competitive deck and your list just doesn't have it. I did watch some of the mediocre league play, the Pod list literally made me cringe at how bad the lines were.

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I think the removal point is fair and I can definitely get behind cutting clunky/cute things (sun Titan/eldrazi displacer etc..) for efficient removal to get us to the late game.

This is probably where we just have different opinions but I still don't think Horizon Canopy is that bad. Like you said the life loss can certainly be a reason to not run it but with kitchen finks, siege rhino, thragtusk and jitte I think the deck can manage running a land like canopy.

My opinion on Canopy is from experience with the card. I don't know how far back it is now since this thread moves pretty quick but it wasn't all that long ago (2 months maybe?) where I was trying the card. It's probably around the SE Fit discussion. I've been looking pretty hard for some form of additional CA and thought Canopy could fill the role. Drawing it early was always a disaster though, and it was easily the worst card in my deck. Canopy working out so poorly is actually what eventually lead me to using Dark Confidant, but I wouldn't suggest Bob in a Pod list.

Displacer is really interesting. It's probably the strongest creature printed in the last 2-3 years if you can make the colors work. With an active displacer it is damn near impossible to actually lose in a combat step. If you add it though you have to think of things as a 4 color list, and while you only have the one outlet for colorless mana it becomes important to have access to multiple colorless for several activation's in a turn. I think it requires a fundamentally different manabase where you're using a series of pain lands, filters, basics, and caverns with mostly humans as your creatures.

I'm pretty sure that Displacer should never be a 1 of either. If you're going in on the strategy you should be going all in.

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Originally Posted by Luthiereisfun

This is probably where we just have different opinions but I still don't think Horizon Canopy is that bad. Like you said the life loss can certainly be a reason to not run it but with kitchen finks, siege rhino, thragtusk and jitte I think the deck can manage running a land like canopy.

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Horizon Canopy is a bad card that hurts us plenty, so we'll fix it by running another card we don't want to run? For at least half a second or so?

Yes, yes, I'm a dick, but did you really think this through before you posted it..?

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Originally Posted by Nargoron

rather spent 1 mana more for natural order....

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Not necessarily. Drawing your NO target might just make it a dead card, drawing anything you could Evolution for is just a card you get to cast later. Yeah, NO'ing into Progenitus/Worldspine Wurm is pretty cool, but dropping Sigarda also wins plenty of games (where Sigarda isn't a dead card when drawn). Or Sun Titan + Pernicious Deed. Both are slower, but usually still good enough.

The other difference between NO and Evolution is that NO requires green creatures, which limits lines a lot. Particularly when several of our best 'spare/fodder' creatures are nongreen I. E. Baleful Strix and Stoneforge Mystic.

Strix isn't something you'd want to sacrifice (we don't play Elvish Visionary either), but SFM, yeah, absolutely.

Dropping SFM, use it to drop equipment and then Evolve SFM into a Siege Rhino sounds good to me. And'll usually be enough to win the game.

For those of you running Meren of Clan Nel Toth, how do you typically use her? What situations?

Is there a creature suite that you want to use her with for an engine? What decks do you find she is best against?


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She shines in long, grindy MUs vs. opponents that don't play white or graveyard hate. So not vs. that many MUs at the moment. Vs. a deck like MUD she can be backbreaking when combined with Qasali Pridemage. Otherwise, recurring an Eternal Witness is a very neat trick. The Witness + Meren loop can be established with a lone Diabolic Intent. After you establish the loop (i.e. Diabolic Intent for a Phyrexian Tower), just cast PtE every turn to clear the board (or Diabolic Intent when facing an empty board). You could also use it to loop a Pernicious Deed, when you have enough mana.

When you plan to abuse Meren, make sure to include some creatures with EtB/on death triggers to generate value. She fits quite nicely in the Abzan Rhino Fit shell, as it already runs some nice looping targets.

Outside of Abzan, she plays quite well with Baleful Strix.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Strix isn't something you'd want to sacrifice (we don't play Elvish Visionary either), but SFM, yeah, absolutely.

Dropping SFM, use it to drop equipment and then Evolve SFM into a Siege Rhino sounds good to me. And'll usually be enough to win the game.

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This was more or less my thinking given where my list was with Junk-Fit a few months back.
The upside of E.Evolution is that you're not bound to green things. Unfortunately, just like NO, the spell is still high risk <--> high return.

So far the return hasn't been worth the risk for me (and this comes from someone that does his sudoku in pen).

Maybe it was just me, maybe it was my build, maybe the deck just had an off day, I don't know. It's surely not an auto-include and (as much as it pains me) I'm strongly leaning towards considering it The Danger Of Cool Things.

My heart bleeds a little bit for this card.

So I've been messing around with four colour manabases, and came up with this:

4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats

2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Island

2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra

1 Mana Confluence
1 Phyrexian Tower

Adds up to 22 lands, with 15 G sources, 14B and 13W/13U. With that in mind, we can potentially put something together which combines some of the high points of the Abzan and Sultai lists.

- Baleful Strix and Stoneforge play well together since it's nice to have cheap fliers to carry your equipment. Also makes the list good at stabilizing which is important when you're playing Mana Confluence.
- Path To Exile (or Swords) makes the deck's removal significantly better.
- Brainstorm is great with the absurd numbers of shuffle effects we run.

- However we probably can't run JTMS & Sigarda since they both require double-colour of our splash colours. It might be doable but is definitely harder than in a standard 3Colour list. IMO Jace is a better choice, since he's better when we aren't looking to end the game (providing filtering / removal) rather than acting as a relatively uninteresting beatdown option. It might well be correct to run neither, though - it might not be worth trying to make double blue mana.

The core of the list (i.e the reason we're running these colour) probably looks something like this:

3 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman

Vet numbers are a little down and DRS numbers are up, just because rainbow mana is pretty important in this deck. We also are probably going to have a relatively low curve (because SFM and Strix) so we probably aren't quite as dependent on getting a Veteran Explorer activation as normal.

3 Baleful Strix
2 Stoneforge Mystic

Card advantage, stabilization, finishers. Synergise with each other. In you go.

1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Thragtusk

Makes Zenith act as CA, stabilization and finisher. Pretty standard.

3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Brainstorm
1 Sensei's Divining Top

Card Advantage and filtering. Less zeniths since we're going to have less targets than normal. Singleton top since the first one we draw is much better than the rest, and Top/Brainstorm are great with all our shuffles from Zenith/Fetch/SFM/Vet. We can't run too many do-nothing cantrip style slots though. Might want a third Brainstorm.

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Path to Exile (or Swords to Plowshares)
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed

Therapy is still great, and we'll have a lot of fodder creatures. Swords/Path is unconditional and great. Abrupt Decay for Counterbalance, Chalice and other annoying problems. Fewer deeds than normal since Strix+SFM makes us good at stabilizing already and less Deed-dependent.

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Stoneforge targets that help us stabilise, win board control, and then kill our opponent. Batterskull is nice but rather on the mana hungry side.

That's 32 cards. We have 6-7 slots left to finish the deck up, with this setup currently:

- Ramp: 8 (3 Veteran Explorer, 2 Deathrite Shaman, 3 Green Sun's Zenith)
This is a little low, but we are curving out at 5. We could potentially add in another Zenith and another ramp creature (maybe an STE) but we'd need to add some more Zenith targets too. Not that that's necessarily a mistake.

- Interaction: 15 (2 Equipment, 2 Stoneforge Mystic, 4 Cabal Therapy, 3 Path/Swords, 2 Abrupt Decay, 2 Pernicious Deed)
This is fine, but could potentially do with an extra couple. We don't have that much interaction with large creatures, large noncreatures, or non-board affecting combos like Storm. Glen Elendra Archmage, an Anguished Unmaking, or JTMS for the bounce could help us out here.

- Stabilization: 17 (3 Vet, 3 Strix, 3 GSZ, 1 Thragtusk, 5 removal spells, 2 Deed)
I've added this in to my evaluation. I'm looking at cards that help us deal with a threatening enemy board state, either by removing their stuff or making them not want to attack. Stoneforge doesn't count since she costs a lot of mana to actually make the opponent not want to attack, and equipment doesn't help unless we already have creatures. These numbers are probably fine, but maybe a Siege Rhino to provide another zenithable combat-winner could be handy.

- Draw/Filtering: 14 (3 Strix, 2 SFM, 3 GSZ, 1 Witness, 1 TTracker, 2 Brainstorm, 1 SDT, 1 SoFaI)
This is a little on the low side, when you consider that we're running Brainstorm and so have more single-use effects. Jaces would be helpful, as would other planeswalkers like Sorin GN. Adding a couple more Brainstorms would help out somewhat too. If we want more permanent options, we could also add in another copy of Tireless Tracker and Eternal Witness, both of which are pretty effective CA options and can also hold a sword and threaten to kill people. Meren of Clan Nel Toth could work too, but I like it when my CA engines work against Miracles.

- Finishers: 11 (2 SFM, 2 Equipment, 1 TTracker, 1 Thragtusk, 3 GSZ, 2 Deathrite)
We could do with a couple more here, but that's to be expected. All our finishers rely on creatures which isn't necessarily a good position to be in. However they also aren't easy to 1-for-1 which helps. A lot of the good blockers in the format are red or blue (TNN, Pyro tokens) and we have Strix to hold our SoFaI against Moats, so we can generally get our attackers in, but it might help to have noncombat options for stuff like Ensnaring Bridge. JTMS is fine although he has double blue in his mana cost, so we could instead go with Big Sorin or something.

For reference, we currently have 5 cards with [W] symbols (Stoneforge and Swords/Path) and 5 cards with [U] symbols (Strix and Brainstorm). We have 16 [G] symbols (with one GG on Eternal Witness) and 13 [B] symbols.

If we want to take the risk of running a double-colour card, I'd lean towards something like this for the last seven cards:

+1 Eternal Witness
+1 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Siege Rhino
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Combat Planeswalker (Garruk Relentless or Sorin, Lord of Innistrad)
- Swap Phyrexian Tower for a second Island

Or to play it safe and keep to single-symbol cards in the splash colours:

+1 Tireless Tracker
+1 Brainstorm
+1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Siege Rhino
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder

I appreciate the feedback from your experience.

She had not done a lot for me in the list thus far. I have replaced her with a copy of Master of the Wild Hunt.

I really wanted her to work but it just doesn't seem to fit the winning strategy.


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Originally Posted by AtticusBlaqk

I appreciate the feedback from your experience.

She had not done a lot for me in the list thus far. I have replaced her with a copy of Master of the Wild Hunt.

I really wanted her to work but it just doesn't seem to fit the winning strategy.


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She can definitely be iffy, especially in certain matchups. You really have to ask yourself how many interactions you have to make her worth it. Number of small dudes, inclusion of Dryad Arbor, whether or not you choose to include other forms of graveyard interaction (Recurring Nightmare), ETB effects including Qasali Pridemage or Siege Rhino.

The thing is, she can just completely seal the deal against many ground-based decks. If your Eldrazi, Shardless, general goyf or Maverick matchups are already good, then she isn't needed as much. I like her in my Junk SFM due to higher count of small dudes, Arbor, and few other graveyard interactions it has. If I make many other changes (might add another combat walker...or two...or three) then I'd replace her.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Horizon Canopy is a bad card that hurts us plenty, so we'll fix it by running another card we don't want to run? For at least half a second or so?

Yes, yes, I'm a dick, but did you really think this through before you posted it..?



Not necessarily. Drawing your NO target might just make it a dead card, drawing anything you could Evolution for is just a card you get to cast later. Yeah, NO'ing into Progenitus/Worldspine Wurm is pretty cool, but dropping Sigarda also wins plenty of games (where Sigarda isn't a dead card when drawn). Or Sun Titan + Pernicious Deed. Both are slower, but usually still good enough.

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Where did I say I would "fix" the issue by running another card I don't want to run? Like I have said I have never had the life loss from Horizon Canopy be that bad in the first place and there was already plenty of life-gain to offset it making its inclusion seem pretty reasonable..do you ever think before you post? Or do you just embrace coming off us as an insufferable contrarian?

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Originally Posted by Navsi

- However we probably can't run JTMS & Sigarda since they both require double-colour of our splash colours. It might be doable but is definitely harder than in a standard 3Colour list. IMO Jace is a better choice, since he's better when we aren't looking to end the game (providing filtering / removal) rather than acting as a relatively uninteresting beatdown option. It might well be correct to run neither, though - it might not be worth trying to make double blue mana.

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Let me make a suggestion Roon of the Hidden Realm. It's similar to Eldrazi Displacer, can be GSZ'ed, has a reasonable body. Another one to maybe consider would be Stoic Angel. They're both easily splashable, use blue, and can be tutored.

has anyone thought about distended mindbreaker in an abzan fit deck? double black doesn't seem too hard get and the deck has been looking for hand disruption on a stick. it's not zenithable but

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Originally Posted by Dominic Pain

has anyone thought about distended mindbreaker in an abzan fit deck? double black doesn't seem too hard get and the deck has been looking for hand disruption on a stick. it's not zenithable but

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It comes down pretty late. If you want creature based hand disruption try out Tidehollow Sculler. I've run them over Thoughtseize from time to time and they work alright.

I play junk decks, frequently switching between loam nic fit and junk deathblade, basing my deck around its disruption package and letting the rest of the deck follow.

When it comes time to play nice fit again I always run the standard 4 rhino junk build.
I find that displacer plus rhinos and witnesses ect works out well.
I feel a lot of disdain or hesitancy with displacer. With mostly etb creatures what is the real downside of displacer?