[Deck] Dredge

Hi all the dredge players! I've been playing a LED-less version for over an year, and in the upcoming event I am thinking to switch into LED beacause I'm courious of the new synergy with faithless looting. I have got a few questions though, not having played the LED version.
1- do you always board out LED? I would in G2 if the opponent is blue based/we don't know which kind of hate he runs since a casual tormod's crypt on t1 screws out plans pretty much, but in certain matchups (like against non-blue decks playing surgical extraction as only hate) I would board them in again in G3, since an extraction would not kill us completely, especially if we have dread return and a strong target (elesh/iona) to win the game even without bridges/ichorids and speeding up a game vs GW is crucial due to scavenging ooze and reliquary for bojuka
2- what kind of sideboard do you suggest me to run?
I am thinking of something like this
4x firestorm > GW
3x memory's journey > surgical/reanimator
2x ancient grudge
4x nature's claim > common hate
1x angel of despair
1x elesh norn
3- which is the ideal nbr of lands in a LED version? I would play with 13 since also in the LED less i would have played with the same number

And eventually one personal opinion regarding DR and targets. They are SOOO important, maybe not in G1 but in G2 for sure since they give us such a boost and an alternative plan to bridges.
Thanks for ur help

I understand that creating an evolution of the archetype is interesting and challenging, and I hate to beat a dead horse with a stick, but in regards to a large majority of everyone's design strategies I would kindly refer them back to this as a reference.

Even though things have changed a bit these last few years, I urge everyone (or at least those who haven't read it) to check that out and study it. It helped me out immensely when I first started rolling with Dredge and I still refer back to it even today.

And I would remind everyone that Feldman never won anything with Dredge in Legacy. He went 5-2(+2 byes) on day one, and went 2-4 on day two in one Grand Prix. That's not impressive by anyone's standards, and that's his best performance. Even his theory can't be accounted for in the deck's successes, since the vast majority of winning lists have not been in the same vein. And with the inherent inconsistancies of the deck, and varience in meta-hate, even those few successes could easily be discounted.

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Originally Posted by jares

I don't believe that "having LED or not" is the most meaningful consideration for running DR (or not), as the DR package, including its plethora of targets, has quite a few more intricacies than just speeding-up the fundamental turn of the deck. I do agree, though, that using the DR slots (including targets) for cards that you would want to see in your opening hand does improve the consistency of the deck based on the probabilities (as I've also verified these numbers during testing) - although taking out those slots might not always be the right thing.

I'd like to note, though, that having DR and its complimentary targets has always been much more fun for me than just winning via the usual beat-down :laugh:.

Kind Regards,
jares

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The fun aspect could be why players new to dredge (or who don't play it in a competitive manner) love to load up on DR targets.

It may not be the most meaningful consideration, but it can be important. In a field full of combo, whether you can win on turn 2/3/4 can be relevant. FKZ potentially speeds up your kill by a turn, at the loss of consistency. Since the LED version is faster (or at least has a higher % to go off on turns 1/2), it could be argued that the potential boost FKZ provides is more important to the LED-less version. The same thought process could be applied to making the turn you go off more explosive (saccing creatures to get a larger number of tokens), or by using DA targets that are particularly harmful against certain deck types (iona vs certain single target decks for example).

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Originally Posted by Parcher

And I would remind everyone that Feldman never won anything with Dredge in Legacy. He went 5-2(+2 byes) on day one, and went 2-4 on day two in one Grand Prix. That's not impressive by anyone's standards, and that's his best performance. Even his theory can't be accounted for in the deck's successes, since the vast majority of winning lists have not been in the same vein. And with the inherent inconsistancies of the deck, and varience in meta-hate, even those few successes could easily be discounted.

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There was this format Extended, and people played more Dredge hate, and Feldman made something of a name for himself with Dredge in that format too.

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

I find it funny, it's the exact same list I posted before,nobody was like great list :D
Webels and Heckers vintage lists can be found here:www.magicclubmol.be

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That's probably because there are only a few of us that are exploring the possibilities of not running Dread Return in the main deck (or possibly not running it at all, just like Webel's list) - in fact, you probably instead got a lot of criticism for doing so :tongue:. I'm not surprised, though, because Dread Return has indeed provided much power to Dredge since its conception, and is still a very effective means of providing avenues to the archetype that would otherwise be unavailable. I'd be interested to hear about how your build is developing so far.

Thanks for the references.

Cheers,
jares

Damon, that article has helped so many people play Dredge better - including myself. Someone can still be a good theory-crafter and not an exceptional player, although as Anusien pointed out he did have a good hold on Dredge in Extended where he did well with it for some time. Over time things do change, but the deck's fundamental strategy has not changed all that much since its inception. They haven't, after all, printed any newer cards with the core Dredge mechanic to necessitate a massive change in the basic setup of how the deck is put together.

At any rate, my sideboard (after hours and days and months of testing) has come down to looking like this:

[4x] Nature's Claim

People are trying to stuff Chain of Vapor into their sideboards because of its application outside of graveyard hate and how well it works with Coliseum. That's fine and all, but to be honest it really doesn't solve any issues definitively. I learned this first hand at the SCG Open in Charlotte when I Chained Dave Price's Leyline and he somehow found a way to recast it. I'm not saying that it is optimal over Chain of Vapor; I'm simply stating that right now artifact and enchantment-based grave-hate is far more prevalent in the format than say, worrying about a single creature in play. Nature's Claim is the best at what it does for its cost, hands down.

[4x] Firestorm

The bottom line is that controlled discard is extremely good post-board where you don't want to go "all in" on something like Lion's Eye Diamond or Coliseum. While those cards are clearly efficient in what they are trying to do, Firestorm is a powerful card that wipes out decks using a threat base to setup a win quickly, like Elves, Goblins, or Maverick. Scavenging Ooze is also an issue for Dredge, and while playing LED is always a good thing when playing around Ooze game one, Firestorm still solves the problem while being able to dump a dredger(s) into your graveyard.

Remember, if you're not dredging, you're not winning.

[2x] Wispmare
[2x] Ingot Chewer

Because I decided to run Nature's Claim as the go-to spell to stop problematic enchantments and artifacts, I wanted to evenly divide the sub-set of anti-hate in the form of something cheap. These creatures both give you additional flexibility for your mulligans in the event you need anti-hate to stay in the game. These creatures cannot be Spell Pierced, which is actually very relevant right now (Spell Pierce is a post-board card, after all). Chewer and Wispmare cost only a single mana to get into play, and because I have opted to forgo Breakthrough in my build, I can use the Study's or Looting's to draw into these if I absolutely have to.

I cut Breakthrough from my list because I was getting frustrated with not being able to have cards - or important spells - in my hand after casting it, and it sometimes put me in precarious situations where I would have to just cast it and not be able to explode without LED, which is just bad. I still run LED to work with Looting and Coliseum, and thus far I have never been happier without it in my list. Controlled discard is key, and sometimes you just want to filter for the sake of filtering. Breakthrough is incredibly conditional, where the aforementioned spells are generally not. It has taken me a long time to get to this decision, and I am very happy with it - as well as these four cards supplementing a solid anti-hate suite that gets around Cage and Leyline - arguably the two best possible cards against this deck.

[2x] Tireless Tribe

Again, controlled discard and a warm body for Dread Return. I really enjoy this guy's utility in being able to fend off attackers early in the game while also being able to continue chaining dredgers into the graveyard. I can also honestly sit here and tell each of you that in just about every circumstance I played a Putrid Imp, it has either been Force of Willed right off the bat or Plowed immediately because of how insanely good it is on turn one. Running a pair in the board helps with this ideology and line of play; I just think this is a forgotten gem that people should take more seriously when going into games two and three.

[1x] Iona, Shield of Emeria

One of the reasons I like Iona as a single dedicated target in my list (outside of Troll in my main; I run no other dedicated targets and two Dread Return now) is that she does several things post-board. For one, she completely buries mono-colored decks that simply cannot handle her, like High Tide. Second, I don't like having Iona in the graveyard and giving Reanimator game one another out in trying to beat me with a 'soft hand,' or one that has some reanimation spells and no other gas. Thirdly, in the event I have no Bridges, I don't like losing to Karakas or Maze of Ith just basically countering my spell. Otherwise, Iona - or any other dedicated target main - seems to just act as a filler space when they really are just win-more in a deck that should already win game one anyways. If you aren't winning game one, you're doing something wrong or your list needs to be adjusted to take into account what it is that's exactly holding you back. In theory, it could be a dedicated target that takes up a slot and kind of commits you into gunning for it when you really shouldn't need it game one.

Again, this is my sideboard and choices. I have tested it thoroughly and am extremely happy with the flexibility and stability it provides against the current Legacy general meta.

Are there really matchups where you bring in 6 answers to Leyline or Cage?

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Originally Posted by jares

That's probably because there are only a few of us that are exploring the possibilities of not running Dread Return in the main deck (or possibly not running it at all, just like Webel's list) - in fact, you probably instead got a lot of criticism for doing so :tongue:. I'm not surprised, though, because Dread Return has indeed provided much power to Dredge since its conception, and is still a very effective means of providing avenues to the archetype that would otherwise be unavailable. I'd be interested to hear about how your build is developing so far.

Thanks for the references.

Cheers,
jares

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Actually the list Hecker played was just like my list. Maybe because we kinda worked together in testing.
The true force behind both legacy and vintage top8 lists is Timo Schünemann though.


So yeah, that's exactly my list.

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Originally Posted by Anusien

Are there really matchups where you bring in 6 answers to Leyline or Cage?

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Enlightened Tutor is a problem for Dredge and can give it a serious headache if the line of play goes unscathed. A Cage cannot be answered by a dredged Grudge, which is incredibly bad. However, open-handing any combination of these cards gives you flexibility where you actually have a chance to stop graveyard hate, which is everywhere right now. Does that make Dredge bad? No, because graveyard hate is very typical in a lot of sideboards in larger tournaments and very much normal. Dredge is still a powerful deck - even in the face of hate. You know this.

Six reasonable slots to bring in against dedicated hate is really not that much, and you're trading the explosive capability that LED brings to the table by being able to control your discard and destroy their hate with it. Leyline is already a bad card, but it still can be devastating if left unanswered. In my build, I am trying to cut back on the aggressiveness of the mulling games two and three by plugging a few holes up that cards like LED and Breakthrough leave when they're taken out. In that instance, you're better off having cards in hand to work with rather than dumping your hand, going all-in, and losing right then and there.

Also, those cards (Wispmare and Chewer) can be recurred with Thug, can be Dread Returned to play (if need be), make tokens when they die from their Evoke costs, and cannot be Spell Pierced. That's really good in Legacy right now, and I have decided - at least in my build - not to commit to cards like Breakthrough main when really Study and Looting provide filter, draw, and discard - all things you want and need games two and three and are effectively just as explosive (with Coliseum and LED) game one.

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

I understand that creating an evolution of the archetype is interesting and challenging, and I hate to beat a dead horse with a stick, but in regards to a large majority of everyone's design strategies I would kindly refer them back to this as a reference.

Even though things have changed a bit these last few years, I urge everyone (or at least those who haven't read it) to check that out and study it. It helped me out immensely when I first started rolling with Dredge and I still refer back to it even today.

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As always, everyone's entitled to their opinion, and it's actually interesting to see that we're all getting different responses from the same reference. For those that find this to be "crap", so to speak, I could only say that it's unfortunate that you did not benefit from it in the same way that we did.

I personally never considered whether Feldman achieved much as Dredge player - in fact, I never considered whether or not he achieved anything at all! This is because I prefer to go through arguments and ideas based on the reasoning provided, and not on the reputation of the individual providing it. I'm a person who leans on the certainty of numbers, and from what I've gathered, the numbers have certainly been considered in the article. We may all have our own opinions, preferences, tendencies, and beliefs, but amidst all these differences, we all cannot question the certainty of numbers.

I took a quick read of the article again, and found that I no longer strictly agree with a few minor details. Everything else is pretty much the same though.

Cheers,
jares

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

Damon, that article has helped so many people play Dredge better - including myself. Someone can still be a good theory-crafter and not an exceptional player, although as Anusien pointed out he did have a good hold on Dredge in Extended where he did well with it for some time. Over time things do change, but the deck's fundamental strategy has not changed all that much since its inception. They haven't, after all, printed any newer cards with the core Dredge mechanic to necessitate a massive change in the basic setup of how the deck is put together.

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I agree in theory, but I don't think that theory has proved out. Also, I was more referring to the previous page's post regarding the "wins" of Feldman and Prosak.

Regarding your list, I have two concerns. First, you are really far behind against Reanimator. Basically with no outs except to race, and no Breakthrough to do so. If you don't resolve an LED, I can't see it happening, and an Archon or Norn will be game. If you are giving up that match for the huge percentages this board gets against Leyline and Crypt/Cage, I can understand. But it would worry me in an unknown meta.

Second, you seems pretty soft to an Aggro deck with Extraction. Your main+SB should be fine against something like U/W Mystic, or a Rock-type deck with Extirpate. But either Burn, or even worse, the U/R Delver deck being able to remove your Bridges should easily outrace you. I admit that you see Extraction far less from aggressive decks, but I could see that being a huge issue.

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

Also, those cards (Wispmare and Chewer) can be recurred with Thug, can be Dread Returned to play (if need be), make tokens when they die from their Evoke costs, and cannot be Spell Pierced. That's really good in Legacy right now.

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Just a quick question. Does the "Die-trigger" from Golgari Thug still apply under a LLotV? If not, I am not going to play Wispmare and stick with Wax / Wane, because it can randomly pump to the win and it's instant.

Golgari Thug:
When Golgari Thug is put into a graveyard from play, put target creature card in your graveyard on top of your library.

Leyline of the Void:
If a card would be put into an opponent's graveyard from anywhere, exile it instead.

No trigger.

I'm sold that led is the way to go for the MD. Faithless is ridiculously insane with it. Even in situations when you don't draw both together. There were games when I had a double led hand without faithless. No worries, I just played them out and when I did dredge into faithless, I simply went crazy. Not drawing led in the opening hand really sucks, it's just such a powerful card with dredged faithless looting. Led + faithless really does increase consistency in going off. Also having 4 extra careful studies is just really strong. I can keep careful/faithless heavy hands even without a dredger because I can dig into them.

Dr is not needed in the main. When I flip over half my deck consistently on t1/t2, Dr is overkill. The challenge is going crazy consistently and I've found the extra rainbows lands and dredgers are the key to going crazy consistently. In the board, dr is very important as an extra dimension. It gives you another weapon in case of surgical. Also when you board out LEDs and intend to slowroll with firestorm, Dr gives you reach when the game drags into a long stalemate.

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

Dr is not needed in the main. When I flip over half my deck consistently on t1/t2, Dr is overkill. The challenge is going crazy consistently and I've found the extra rainbows lands and dredgers are the key to going crazy consistently. In the board, dr is very important as an extra dimension. It gives you another weapon in case of surgical. Also when you board out LEDs and intend to slowroll with firestorm, Dr gives you reach when the game drags into a long stalemate.

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I wouldn't necessarily say that Dread Return isn't needed in the main deck, as it really depends on what you're trying to achieve with your list, not to mention the considerations required when addressing a certain meta. If "going crazy" is what you're looking for, then I believe that it doesn't get crazier than DR into FKZ and/or Sun Titan.

I used to also think that having DR in the sideboard, along with the appropriate targets, was also necessary. My recent experience, though, has prompted me to reconsider that configuration - after all, I did dedicate 4 sideboard slots for the DR Package, and that's a lot of room for sideboard space. I'll need to continue testing this idea to be able to draw a conclusion from it.

Kind Regards,
jares

Went 3-1 tonight with my new list. There were a few changes I made at the last minute, and they wound up being pretty relevant. After my humbling experience in Charlotte, I took a step back and did some pondering.

For reference, here is the list I ran:

[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Golgari Thug

[4x] Putrid Imp
[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Narcomoeba

[4x] Cabal Therapy
[4x] Lion's Eye Diamond
[4x] Faithless Looting
[2x] Careful Study
[2x] Breakthrough
[2x] Dread Return

[4x] City of Brass
[4x] Gemstone Mine
[4x] Cephalid Coliseum
[2x] Undiscovered Paradise

//Sideboard
[4x] Nature's Claim
[4x] Firestorm
[2x] Tireless Tribe
[2x] Wispmare
[2x] Ingot Chewer
[1x] Iona, Shield of Emeria

I was going to cut the Breakthrough's from my list, but I trimmed it down to two to see how that would operate on the night. I wound up defeating B/g Loam round one after blowing the game open turn one with LED and Looting. Game two was similar, and after a few mulligans by my opponent into Leyline of the Void, I evoked Wispmare and won the game in short order.

Round two I lost a tightly contested game one to Reanimator after completely ripping apart his hand with Therapies. With lethal impending, a top-decked Exhume saved him and allowed him to retrieve Jin. It was over in short order after an Entomb fetched up Elesh Norn. Game two was similar, but I couldn't handle his draws off of a sketchy keep.

Rounds three and four were complete blowouts against Mono White (IBA) and U/r Delver, as cards like Nature's Claim and Wispmare helped deal with Enlightened Tutor targets such as Crypt and Wheel of Sun and Moon. I was able to avoid having to deal with those cards by punishing my opponents for taking mulligans and ripping their hands apart. I was, however, prepare to deal with those cards by having a Nature's Claim in hand just in case. The Delver match was just a joke, and I correctly nailed a Snapcaster Mage off a Therapy with my opponent on two untapped lands.

All in all, I was very pleased with the deck's performance and my sideboard. It's just one tournament, but so far so good.

On the whole Feldman/Fearless Dredge thing: read this http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...cy_Dredge.html very carefully. The link goes to Feldman's tournament report for GP:Chicago. It's from just before "The Dark Art of Dredge Fu" and contradicts a number of points that 'Dark Art' makes.

Feldman in 'Dark Art' has two mostly-separate arguments. I think people confuse them, and this leads to a lot of the controversy surrounding Fearless Dredge.

1) You should minimize the number of graveyard-only cards and maximize the number of enabler cards.
My opinion: This point seems fairly unsubstantiated. From a particular list and against a particular metagame, you might be able to say a particular list has too many or too few enablers (and make similar judgments for graveyard-specific cards). The thing is, Bridge from Below, Ichorid, Narcomoeba, Dread Return, and others are all cards which have basically no impact unless you dredge them. This suggests that you really need enabler cards to get started (Feldman's point). Conversely, if you almost completely cut graveyard-only cards (say, going down to just 4x Ichorid to win games) you'll always get started but get too low of a reward for doing so. What the exact balance is depends on your expected opponents and your build.
A second point: Games in which you lose because you just do nothing are very obvious. They stick out very strongly to you. Games you lose because your opponent was able to exile your Bridge From Belows by killing one of their own creatures a turn before you otherwise would've won aren't always obvious, because a lot of times you can't possibly realize you would've won the next turn, and a lot of times you don't actually lose for several turns, making it unclear why you lost.
A final point on maximizing consistency in favor of explosiveness: When you rely so heavily on Cabal Therapy (which Feldman advocates), you're actually worse off in a number of situations. Some of these are really obvious (Brainstorm in response, Counterbalance + Top to lock out all your Cabals, and similar). Some of these situations are extremely subtle, like burning through a hand of answer cards, with one or two whiffs over the course of the game/match. If you have a Dread Return to act as additional Cabal Therapy (by winning one the spot unless they expend an answer card), you can more readily afford to whiff or have your Therapies countered.

2) The best use of sideboard slots is dictated by the metagame. From the link I posted at the very top, I think this is a nice excerpt:

"The Needles are for Tormod's Crypt and Relic, and I boarded them in for almost every match I played at the GP. They easily won me more games than any other sideboard card."
- Richard Feldman, immediately after GP: Chicago, but a month and a half before "The Dark Art of Dredge Fu"

This directly contradict's Feldman's 'Dark Art' claim that he'd never won a game with reactive cards.

The only conclusion I can come to on sideboarding is this: You should consider reactive cards, but test them thoroughly and get a good idea what you need them against and if they will turn around those matchups. If they're not pulling their weight, try to find something that will win you more matches.

3) Finally, a rules warning for all you 'Dark Art' readers: Feldman says you can attack into opposing tokens without losing your own Bridge from Belows. This is flat-out wrong. It only triggers for non-token creatures when it comes to creating creatures, but any creature can trigger the exile clause.

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Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth

Just a quick question. Does the "Die-trigger" from Golgari Thug still apply under a LLotV? If not, I am not going to play Wispmare and stick with Wax / Wane, because it can randomly pump to the win and it's instant.

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Wispmare goes to the graveyard upon resolution of the triggered ability. It destroys Leyline and still goes to the graveyard, because you stack the evoke trigger and 'enters the battlefield' trigger, making it a relevant return target for Thug in the event it is needed. It's actually really good right now, and being able to dodge Spell Pierce and make tokens at the cost of one mana is really what you want when you consider there are plenty of lines of play you can benefit from running Chewer/Wispmare - with an opponent running Leyline or Cage.

Wax/Wane is relatively terrible considering there are far more viable options at the ready.

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Originally Posted by K1w1

Golgari Thug:
When Golgari Thug is put into a graveyard from play, put target creature card in your graveyard on top of your library.

Leyline of the Void:
If a card would be put into an opponent's graveyard from anywhere, exile it instead.

No trigger.

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Okay... I know that Leyline has a replacement-effect. I was unsure because the oracle-wording of Thug is "When Golgari Thug dies..."