[Deck] Elves Combo

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Originally Posted by nudon

The cards you boarded out are fine but I wouldn't bring in decay and o-ring. The reason for this is because most of the time they board in perish, which neither card hits. Though I like priest more (which I board out), the archdruid you have already grants protection from plague. Personally, I just bring in play set of therapies (naming sfm or jitte if he's already fetched it) and pridemage. Furthermore, Daniel and I had a discussion about harmonic sliver on his recent tourney thread and I'm switching to harmonic sliver since it gives more value when used in conjunction with therapy.

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Stoneblade decks are a grindy matchup- I'm not a fan of Cabal Therapies coming in - you want things to recoup lost cards from sweepers and discard.

Sylvan Library is a very good one, and in the same vein I've also used Domri Rade (with a Taiga in the main) who is a huge threat (as early as t2) that is hard for them to deal with. Your own Umezawa's Jitte or 2 is also a great proactive answer to theirs and a big threat. Obviously a Harmonic/Viridian/Pridemage comes in. Gaddock Teeg possibly as he shuts off Verdict, Explosives, Jace, but I think he's pretty marginal. Maybe an Ezuri if you have it, as it is a cheap late-game threat that can beat Verdict/Perish.

I would side-out cards like Crop Rotation, Natural Order, and combo-oriented creatures like 1x Heritage.

I think it becomes trickier with the Deathblade decks who may leave in Geist of Saint Traft (say, if they're on the play) in which they could be very aggressive unlike the usual esper stoneblade.

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Originally Posted by Absolutflipz

Stoneblade decks are a grindy matchup- I'm not a fan of Cabal Therapies coming in - you want things to recoup lost cards from sweepers and discard.

Sylvan Library is a very good one, and in the same vein I've also used Domri Rade (with a Taiga in the main) who is a huge threat (as early as t2) that is hard for them to deal with. Your own Umezawa's Jitte or 2 is also a great proactive answer to theirs and a big threat. Obviously a Harmonic/Viridian/Pridemage comes in. Gaddock Teeg possibly as he shuts off Verdict, Explosives, Jace, but I think he's pretty marginal. Maybe an Ezuri if you have it, as it is a cheap late-game threat that can beat Verdict/Perish.

I would side-out cards like Crop Rotation, Natural Order, and combo-oriented creatures like 1x Heritage.

I think it becomes trickier with the Deathblade decks who may leave in Geist of Saint Traft (say, if they're on the play) in which they could be very aggressive unlike the usual esper stoneblade.

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First of all, the best thing to do against stoneblade is not to over-extend. Supreme verdict and EE aren't so bad when you're going for the symbiote/visionary interaction. Cabal therapy gets rid of the jitte that sfm WILL find and protects your NO play as well. If you don't believe me, listen to a SCG Open champion.

Domri rade is terrible for this deck. There's no library manipulation so you're going to whiff 50% of the time on the +1 ability. The -2 ability will generally be worse for us than our opponent. Lastly, the ultimate takes 4 additional turns to activate. Please don't tell me you're running domri rade because of a singleton sylvan library in your sb. Running jitte is fine but I personally don't run it since there's no way for me to tutor for it. I don't board in teeg because he shuts down gsz and NO. Ezuri does not beat perish since perish states the creatures can't be regenerated.

Aside from NO, the cards you board out aren't too different than those of people on this thread. Keep in mind, it's important to bait out counters early with gsz and glimpse to allow you to safely play NO later. As I mentioned earlier, cabal therapy helps this greatly.

I'm not really afraid of GoST since our nettle sentinels can block him all day long. Furthermore, deathblade decks probably won't have access to perish. This means bringing in progenitus is an option.

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Originally Posted by nudon

First of all, the best thing to do against stoneblade is not to over-extend. Supreme verdict and EE aren't so bad when you're going for the symbiote/visionary interaction. Cabal therapy gets rid of the jitte that sfm WILL find and protects your NO play as well. If you don't believe me, listen to a SCG Open champion.

Domri rade is terrible for this deck. There's no library manipulation so you're going to whiff 50% of the time on the +1 ability. The -2 ability will generally be worse for us than our opponent. Lastly, the ultimate takes 4 additional turns to activate. Please don't tell me you're running domri rade because of a singleton sylvan library in your sb. Running jitte is fine but I personally don't run it since there's no way for me to tutor for it. I don't board in teeg because he shuts down gsz and NO. Ezuri does not beat perish since perish states the creatures can't be regenerated.

Aside from NO, the cards you board out aren't too different than those of people on this thread. Keep in mind, it's important to bait out counters early with gsz and glimpse to allow you to safely play NO later. As I mentioned earlier, cabal therapy helps this greatly.

I'm not really afraid of GoST since our nettle sentinels can block him all day long. Furthermore, deathblade decks probably won't have access to perish. This means bringing in progenitus is an option.

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Obviously, you don't run every single guy in your hand out in to a sweeper -- but at the same time, it's quite a hard balance to achieve in attempting to apply any sort of pressure while not putting out at least some guys. The cards I presented help mitigate these issues in the matchup.

And Domri Rade and Sylvan Library were not mentioned as being mutually exclusive to one another (not relying on Library to set up a Domri activation); they are examples of card advantage engines postboard. And I guess if you say that Domri Rade is terrible in Elves, a deck that is 50% creatures (to your 50% whiff), than Domri Rade must be terrible, period, right? I don't know any other deck, standard, modern, or otherwise that runs more than about 50% creatures...

He's obviously been good in such decks. Whiffing 50% of the time also means you're hitting 50% of the time... - Additionally, this hit/whiff is with a +1 ability. Further, Nettle Setinel effectively fights Stoneforge and Deathrite...and the majority of the other creatures at least trade with creatures like Stoneforge, Bob, etc (in a deck that has no removal and little intreaction with the opponent md). I realize he's not a traditional option, but I find your response quite hostile and without any thought. A turn 2/3 planeswalker is a difficult permanent to interact with for a controlling deck and favorably interacts with our own deck and against a removal/discard heavy plan from the opponent. Certainly if Sylvan Library is a good card, Domri likewise should be considered for such mu's.

I'm not buying Cabal Therapy as the right sideboard plan against Stoneblade variants.

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Originally Posted by Absolutflipz

Obviously, you don't run every single guy in your hand out in to a sweeper -- but at the same time, it's quite a hard balance to achieve in attempting to apply any sort of pressure while not putting out at least some guys. The cards I presented help mitigate these issues in the matchup.

And Domri Rade and Sylvan Library were not mentioned as being mutually exclusive to one another (not relying on Library to set up a Domri activation); they are examples of card advantage engines postboard. And I guess if you say that Domri Rade is terrible in Elves, a deck that is 50% creatures (to your 50% whiff), than Domri Rade must be terrible, period, right? I don't know any other deck, standard, modern, or otherwise that runs more than about 50% creatures...

He's obviously been good in such decks. Whiffing 50% of the time also means you're hitting 50% of the time... - Additionally, this hit/whiff is with a +1 ability. Further, Nettle Setinel effectively fights Stoneforge and Deathrite...and the majority of the other creatures at least trade with creatures like Stoneforge, Bob, etc (in a deck that has no removal and little intreaction with the opponent md). I realize he's not a traditional option, but I find your response quite hostile and without any thought. A turn 2/3 planeswalker is a difficult permanent to interact with for a controlling deck and favorably interacts with our own deck and against a removal/discard heavy plan from the opponent. Certainly if Sylvan Library is a good card, Domri likewise should be considered for such mu's.

I'm not buying Cabal Therapy as the right sideboard plan against Stoneblade variants.

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I agree balance is crucial in order to apply pressure without over-extending too much into a sweeper. This is precisely why I said the symbiote-visionary plan is the preferred line of play. Even if they play a sweeper, we can return an elf with symbiote and have already gotten value out of visionary.

Domri rade is strong primarily due to his fight ability, not because of the potential to draw a card. He has more value in a deck with goyf, knights, bloodbraids, etc. When almost all of the creatures in our deck are 1/1s, I don't see him providing too much c/a via fights. If we really wanted him for his first ability, bob and phyrexian arena hit 100% of the time without forcing a red splash.

Sorry if I came across as hostile as that was not my intent. I apologize for that. However, I definitely thought about what you said. I just assumed it was obvious that running a cmc-3 card that only grants c/a half the time isn't worth it since the fight ability is underwhelming in this deck. You don't have to buy into cabal therapy since that's your prerogative. However, I'm always happy to see my opponent fetch and reveal jitte when holding therapy in hand.

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Originally Posted by nudon

I agree balance is crucial in order to apply pressure without over-extending too much into a sweeper. This is precisely why I said the symbiote-visionary plan is the preferred line of play. Even if they play a sweeper, we can return an elf with symbiote and have already gotten value out of visionary.

Domri rade is strong primarily due to his fight ability, not because of the potential to draw a card. He has more value in a deck with goyf, knights, bloodbraids, etc. When almost all of the creatures in our deck are 1/1s, I don't see him providing too much c/a via fights. If we really wanted him for his first ability, bob and phyrexian arena hit 100% of the time without forcing a red splash.

Sorry if I came across as hostile as that was not my intent. I apologize for that. However, I definitely thought about what you said. I just assumed it was obvious that running a cmc-3 card that only grants c/a half the time isn't worth it since the fight ability is underwhelming in this deck. You don't have to buy into cabal therapy since that's your prerogative. However, I'm always happy to see my opponent fetch and reveal jitte when holding therapy in hand.

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I agree that Symbiote/Visionary shines in this matchup for many reasons (card advantage, protect from jitte, etc).

I like Sylvan Library and Domri was a thought to something a little more spicy/interesting...but anyway.

Cabal Therapy is good in that situation (opponent casts Stoneforge to grab Jitte and leaves it in their hand) -- but if you're so concerned with Jitte, aren't there better ways? Decay, Harmonic, Viridian Shaman, your own Jitte? Decay can't even be countered, like therapy could, if you're so worried about a fetched-up Jitte.

Further, Therapy specifically requires you to name a card, and Stoneblade decks play such a wide variety of cards, including a number of different ones that are almost equally devastating (Jitte, Perish, Verdict, Explosives, Snapcaster, Stoneforge, Jace, etc..) that hitting one blind is somewhat difficult and further, not that effective. Their own discard is even really effective against us.

To me, discard should be used where you're grabbing a key piece to an opponent's deck that is going to cripple them or at least put them pretty far behind (i.e. taking glimpse from us or taking missing piece from Storm or SnT). Stoneblade decks are fair decks where nabbing one of X problems isn't really going to get you that far. Having to get rid of a dude to flash it back and hit something else seems even worse.

Keeping Natural Order in also seems rough to me given that NO practically asks you to somewhat over-extend in order to have a lethal amount of creatures on board for Hoof and allowing you to cast the 4 mana sorcery (i.e. you wont always have 4 mana-producing lands and will rely on 1-2 mana elves), in addition to the built-in 2-for-1'ing yourself potential against a counterspell.

Also -- I haven't seen much talk on Beck//Call. I've played some with it and it's not nearly as good as Glimpse but I like it as Gliimpses 5&6...giving you more must-answer spells and allowing you to more freely 'value' glimpse early while having more full-on combo glimpse/becks available later.

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Originally Posted by Absolutflipz

Cabal Therapy is good in that situation (opponent casts Stoneforge to grab Jitte and leaves it in their hand) -- but if you're so concerned with Jitte, aren't there better ways? Decay, Harmonic, Viridian Shaman, your own Jitte? Decay can't even be countered, like therapy could, if you're so worried about a fetched-up Jitte.

Further, Therapy specifically requires you to name a card, and Stoneblade decks play such a wide variety of cards, including a number of different ones that are almost equally devastating (Jitte, Perish, Verdict, Explosives, Snapcaster, Stoneforge, Jace, etc..) that hitting one blind is somewhat difficult and further, not that effective. Their own discard is even really effective against us.

To me, discard should be used where you're grabbing a key piece to an opponent's deck that is going to cripple them or at least put them pretty far behind (i.e. taking glimpse from us or taking missing piece from Storm or SnT). Stoneblade decks are fair decks where nabbing one of X problems isn't really going to get you that far. Having to get rid of a dude to flash it back and hit something else seems even worse.

Keeping Natural Order in also seems rough to me given that NO practically asks you to somewhat over-extend in order to have a lethal amount of creatures on board for Hoof and allowing you to cast the 4 mana sorcery (i.e. you wont always have 4 mana-producing lands and will rely on 1-2 mana elves), in addition to the built-in 2-for-1'ing yourself potential against a counterspell.

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Actually, I do bring in pridemage/sliver so I can gsz/NO for them. However, I don't bring in decay because it doesn't hit perish, supreme verdict, and EE in most cases. They would have to have 2 counters to stop therapy. If they have it, you still just fished out 2 counters and possibly 3 cards (FoW) for 1 mana.

I think you're misunderstanding how I'm using cabal therapy in this matchup. Unlike against storm/reanimator, I'm not playing therapy blind on t1 and flashing it back on t2. Furthermore if a stoneforge has landed, I'm not naming blind and can get full value out of it. I play therapy later (naming FoW/spell pierce) to protect my game-winning glimpse/gsz/NO. If there's no game-winning spell in my hand, the flashback allows me to get rid of their 1-of verdict/EE/perish/E-plague.

I think being able to grab/bait FoW and spell pierce is pretty important. If cabal therapy is good enough for storm to run, it should be especially good for us since we can abuse its flashback. Choosing to flashback is also an option. There's nothing that says you have to use it.

First, it doesn't take too many creatures to have lethal damage on board (especially after repeating symbiote/visionary draws a couple of times). Second, going for regal force still applies a ton of pressure while drawing us more gas. After boarding out crop rotation, the 3 NO aren't nearly as susceptible to getting you 2-for-1'ed since you are able to protect this play by leading with cabal therapy, glimpse, or gsz (on previous turn) anyways.

ANT plays Therapy because they run Duress and especially Gitaxian Probe, tho. You haven't played Magic until you've played T1 Probe=>Therapy. It's just amazing.

Anyway, I second most all of what nudon said. Quick NOs win a ton. Esper isn't necessarily super solid in the first couple turns G1, and NO strikes right at the heart. Post board, you use Therapy to clear the coast and then go for the win. Hoof, Regal and Ruric are all pretty brutal. If you run Archdruid or an Imperious Perfect, GSZ=3 is also pretty damn scary.

Furthermore, you don't actually have to hit with Therapy. If you're going to cast NO/Glimpse/Archdruid for the win, you just name whatever you would lose to. If they don't have it, you just win. A big part of playing Therapy well is analyzing the game state and asking not "what does he have in hand" but "what would I lose to". It's also worthwhile to note that if you can keep their equipment suppressed by Therapying Stoneforge fetches and blowing things up, they don't really have any pressure. Deathrite and Ooze if you have it main gain enough life to neutralize Souls. You also have far more raw card advantage than they do - they have 2-for-1's and Brainstorms, you have repeatable draw engines, Ancestral Recall and perhaps Regal Force. If you have an Archdruid out, they can't even really trade profitably on the board. Against sweepers, always save the Shaman. I've lost a couple games to being greedy and saving the Archdruid.

If you're that worried about overextending, play a singleton Imperious Perfect. Feeds Therapy, immediately turns you into a legitimate beatdown deck when it lands, is GSZ'able and they have to kill it or they'll just drown in tokens. It's a beast with all the Twiddle effects, too, and can be saved from removal making it a Batterskull-style PITA.

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...y/feature/248e

Play. More. Cradles.

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Originally Posted by danyul

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...y/feature/248e

Play. More. Cradles.

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Just bought two last week. So I was required to buy two more tonight. I guess I am playing elves now...

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Originally Posted by danyul

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...y/feature/248e

Play. More. Cradles.

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I would play 7 if I could.

Yeah, I had to order my other two after reading that. If it would fit, I'd still do 4 Cradle and 1 Rotation, but there's no room. Rotation is likely getting the axe, as well as Bog and Karakas from the board.

Wooooooo! Finally I can play my 4 Judge Foils!

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Originally Posted by Koby

I would play 7 if I could.

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4 cradles + 3 rotations is an option if you want to be greedy.

It does improve the Sneak and Derp matchup.

Thank you WotC!! :-)

I would Not be suprised if this change would result in cradle being more popular in other creature decks too and end up being Banned for being oppressive in creature-centric-matchups and "limiting design Space" for WotC to print powerful creatures

I decided to play elves again long time ago but things keep getting better. Deathrite, Decay, Behemoth, Ruric and now this!

Nice to speculate about what's going to happen with the meta.

If Sneak and Show becomes less relevant (like many people think) and show/dream-halls takes over I think it is good news for elves since they have less ways to interact (only force and no red) and it is easier to hate out with pridemage/Krosan Grip.

More decks like GW, Junk, lands or loam variants trying to abuse dark depths is also interesting and I think rather good news. Crop rotation for Karakas answers that nicely while these decks are rather weak to elves unless they run a lot of hate.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I would Not be suprised if this change would result in cradle being more popular in other creature decks too and end up being Banned for being oppressive in creature-centric-matchups and "limiting design Space" for WotC to print powerful creatures

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I have found this:

"The most notable change for Modern, Legacy, Vintage, and Commander will be that legendary lands will be much more attractive to run in decks. While they still suffer from the drawback of not being able to have more than one in play if you draw multiples, it does make it much easier for decks to run singleton or even a few copies of powerful legendary permanents such as Gaea's Cradle, Karakas, Academy Ruins, or Mox Opal. We will keep a close lookout for the power of these lands in Modern, Legacy, and Vintage, and trust that Commander Rules Committee (who have been previously informed of this change) will keep a lookout for the power level in that format, as well as the power level of commanders that are traditionally difficult to deal with, such as Uril, the Miststalker. It is not currently expected that these rules changes will bring about any changes to the Modern, Legacy, or Vintage Banned and Restricted lists, but we will be keeping a close eye on the formats between the release of Magic 2014 Core Set and Theros, and we will make any changes if they are deemed necessary." (Source: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...y/feature/248f)

Hey guys, first post in this thread. Had a 45 people tournament on Sunday, and since i expected loads of BUG cascade and fair decks i decided to run Elves. List is here:

2 Gaea's Cradle
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Bayou
4 Nettle Sentinel
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Priest of Titania
4 Heritage Druid
2 Crop Rotation
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Birchlore Rangers
1 Tropical Island
1 Viridian Shaman
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 4 Cabal Therapy
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Progenitus

I manage to beat Bug Cascade, Team America, Ant and Tin Fins, losing to 2 Dream Halls decks. Unfortunatly i finished 9th at 12 points, together with another guy who made top 8 instead. I really liked the list, i tried Ooze MD since i didn't have the 4 Quirion Ranger and i didn't have time to find a replacement, and Ooze was awesome for me during the whole tournament. Against BUG control i won g1 thanks to Ooze+Cradle facing a board of triple Goyf, and g2 it helped me stabilize before i could find a Natural Order. Against Team America Ooze kept 2 Shamans in check, gaining me a lot of time to draw into the combo, and g1 against Dream Halls i won g1 sacrificing all my elves to an annihilator trigger, floating mana with Cradle in the process and counterattack with a giant Ooze for the win. I tested the deck only a few hours before the tournament, and my feeling is that in a BUG/Jund heavy meta this deck is a beast. But the Dream Halls MU is sooo frustrating: they have leyline for our Therapies, Brainstorm to hide their goodies, counters for our enablers, and a fast combo finish that kills on the spot. As i said i never tested against them before the tournament, so maybe i made lots of mistakes, but the MU seems very very hard for Elves. Any input?

@sheik80: I would definitely include gaddock teeg as a gsz target in your sb to fight combo. It'll help against omni-tell too. If you're running double crop rotation, karakas is probably an auto-include as well. Keep in mind crop rotation might not needed in 2 months once we can run 4 cradles with minimal drawback. Cradle 5-8 might be a thing though depending on the build.

As some have said, it's definitely a great time to be an elf player. I'm glad I took the leap into legacy during the miracle era last fall when this deck wasn't being played. I bought the crux of the deck then at a discount and later added the white/black splash after the debut of Nass's elves. I didn't buy 4 cradles like I should have but can't win them all. :)