Colorless mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by aicnelavo
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Colorless mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by aicnelavo
Event results
Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard
Creatures:20
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Primeval Titan
Spells:17
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Lands:23
2 Bayou
4 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
Sideboard:15
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Duress
2 Path to Exile
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
1 Engineered Plague
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
I went 3/1 again with the above list in a recent event. That was my own misplay as I'll explain, rather than a fault with the deck.
Elves
G1 Landed an early jitte and ate his field.
G2 Another early jitte but it wasn't enough as he chained reclamation sage and glimpse into 4 more elves including sentinels and heritage druid, and craterhoof
G3 Was interesting. I played turn 1 vet into turn 2 land pass. His turn 2 ended with a DRS, heritage druid and nettle sentinel in play. I sensed the embrace of death coming next turn so out of despiration, end of his turn 2 I pathed my vet, allowing me to turn 3 drop deed and still have 1 mana. That slowed him right down. I got down good pressure shortly but he ended up dropping a dude and using natural order. I was getting ready to scoop as I discovered he didn't have a progenitus in his 75 and a craterhoof at that point wasn't enough.
2-1. If he had progenitus I would have lost. Elves is still a really, really rough matchup and I would love some advise on how to handle it.
Lands
G1 Veteran explorer>tower>zenith for scooze. Therapy his fires and eat them both. Closed out there with a scooze and a tracker.
G2 Turn 3 leige-game
G3 Turn 3 leige. I path it, and with depths, stage and loam in grave, I surgical his loam. He's got one card in hand then draws stage, then draws gamble for depths, gets through the 50/50 and I can't stop the second leige. Lessons learned in blood I suppose. Should have taken a combo peice. Asked around, got a pretty even spread on post fact advise on which was the correct surgical target at that point. I'm fairly sure now it's one of the two land, but still not sure which one. Advise welcome
1-2
A grixis bloodghast/prized amalgam, and greater gargadon. Interesting deck. He beat miracles round 1 and lost to something round 2.
G1 Scooze
G2 Scooze + surgical
Was rough for him as I specifically packed my 75 full of grave hate for combo decks.
2-0
Sneak attack
G1 he didn't see sneak attack or breach. Had a turn 2 moon though, but didn't slow me down for long enough.
G2 he went all in on a chalice for 1 with mountain>guide. Had a petal and 2 sneak attacks in hand, a breach plus some big stuff. Just needed a sol land, or any land... he never saw another mana source. Turn 4 GSZ into rec-sage, then stripped his hand with therapies. Rough. Shut me down well though. 2 surgical, 2 therapy and a veteran rotting away. My first play was turn 4. Real rough luck on his part.
2-0
Upon further reflection, I need more answers for elves. They're somewhat prominent in the meta, and are really resiliant. Progenitus is a massive problem, even if, with difficulty, I can stop the craterhoof plan.
Not sold on sorin. He's really there for miracles, but I brought him in against land. Didn't see him, didn't care. That 6 drop sideboard slot needs an answer. Contenders atm are sorin, grave titan, dromoka and sigarda. Tossing up the idea of ruric thar, because if miracles don't counter him he at a minimum deals 6. Also against combo. The kind that you can slow down a bit by ripping apart their hand, but they can still topdeck glory. Don't really think he's good enough to make the cut, but that slot is open for now.
I don't think DRS is comming back. Never missed him.
Not sold on two trackers. One is often really good, and I'm running two so that I can drop him in that mid game without having to zenith for it. Found myself siding one out a lot. Needs more testing.
Jit was main mostly for miracles, and was supposed to provide flexiblity vs a few different things. It's performance vs elves is keeping it right where it is.
Nissa is a incredible. I would encourage people to give her a run. Happy to have a discussion about her and her uses :)
In regards to the recent Meren discussion, she's been amazing in my particular build. But then I run things like driad arbor, recurring nightmare, and qasali pridemage. She's really good just past the mid game, when you've both used up your resources and it's now time to get back into the game. Basically if I need to get back non creature (usually deeds), I go looking for witness. If I need creatures and pressure, I get meren then stat recurring rhinos, or often nissa, who came down, got a forrest then died. Comes back this time for a flip that same turn
In regards to the recent canopy dicussion, I love mine. Sometimes you get it early, take a bit of damage, nothing a rhino or tusk won't fix. I found if this deck loses, it's by a landslide, and not by 2-5 health. Whereas late it's a bit of extra gas, works great with titania/titan. Basically the downside has been negligeble, and the upside can get you over that late game hump.
Colorless mana hasn't been an issue for me, however I run a non conventional land base.
Has there been any thoughts on eerie interlude?
It dodges deed, terminus, and retriggers etbs.
Might be better than displacer.
Unconventional or not, adding what is essentially a 4th color comes with some costs. Displacer has the same problem that Slaughter Games had, which a lot of people tried to run by splashing a Taiga. If you want Displacer to work you're going to need a minimum of 14 colorless sources, not including Veteran Explorer fetching up Wastes. It's not possible to do that without skimping on other colors.Quote:
Originally Posted by aicnelavo
Veteran Explorer is a dies trigger which means to move from the battlefield to the graveyard. Path exiles so that it never dies. This wasn't a legal play.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4554551//
Run more removal. If you prevent their CA engines they're really slow to set up and you can keep their board under control as you force blocks.Quote:
If he had progenitus I would have lost. Elves is still a really, really rough matchup and I would love some advise on how to handle it.
I think he meant he path'd his veteran explorer to hit the 3rd land drop from the land that path gives, not the vet trigger.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
I did mean the land I get from the path, yes.
What removal stops them dropping any dude/fetching into arbor, holding priority and casting one of their natural orders into progenitos?
Are you suggesting I run some form of edict or councils judgement? Or toxic deluge for 10?
Ahh right, didn't think about the land. That would work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Luthiereisfun
If you keep their board clear Craterhoof doesn't win the game. Craterhoof with two guys is 13. They need 3 guys after the NO to really threaten you. More interaction goes a long way to keeping them off of 3 guys. Elves relies on it's CA to get to and stay at 3 creatures. A mix of discard, Teeg, Jitte, spot removal, Surgical (best used as a discard spell), and DRS (mainly to counter their own DRS) can usually get you there. That's how I handle the matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4554551//
DRS helps a lot, one of the reasons you're likely not seeing as much value though is that you're already at 28 mana sources because you're running 2 more lands than the typical list.
Oh, I totally get what you're saying about the crater hoof line. It's the natural order into progenitus I struggle with. What do you do there?
Teeg alone isn't enough
If you're in a meta where edicts are good and it sounds like you might be with Marit Lage and Progenitus to worry about, have you considered the new card Blessed Alliance? I know from experience that Celestial Flare is super powerful, no one ever expects the edict out of white but where Flare is too tough for this deck to cast, Alliance isn't. And it has additional upside since it can function as a mana sink.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4554551//
You go for the "well this card has never been that bad for me, so I'll just hear what I want to hear" line and make me out to be the badguy for pointing out that playing bad cards to make other bad cards less bad isn't the way you want to go? Lol, whatever floats your boat man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Luthiereisfun
No, no, 1 AD as spot removal suite is fine. You don't need cheap board sweepers in your SB either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Elves! is a deck that typically runs only 14 lands that make mana when there are no creature on the field. Without enough creatures they have a lot of trouble getting 4 mana. Also, if Toxic Deluge for 10 is what keeps you from dying then yes, by all means do so. Losing 10 life doesn't equal losing the game. Edict effects also don't necessarily get you there. As soon as they drop another creature it's useless. And they can also keep up a fetch to turn it into an Arbor in response to Edict effects. Elves! usually doesn't run Progenitus though. If it's making a resurgence it might be worth it to run Council's Judgment. Also does some splash damage vs. Miracles and Sneak & Show, so it isn't the worst card to have in a SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4554551//
I've not considered blessed alliance. I was actually largely sarcastic about edicts. Merit comes in end of turn and killing progenitus just buys you some turns. I'm also largely concerned about the wisdom of saying kill all of elves dorks forever to keep them off 4 mana..
What do you think about something like a crop rotation effect for the karakas? Could also get the other land in a pinch. I originally ran knight of reliquary for that purpose but that's too slow. But that won't help vs progenitus.
Maybe blessed is the way to go. Judgement is good but doesn't hit leige. Other ideas anyone?
Is NO -> Progenitus really that much of a problem in your meta? Also, I'm not saying you can keep them off 4 mana forever, but you can at least put some more effort into it so you can get into a position where a Rhino and a Sigarda (or something along those lines) gets you there. Scavenging Ooze is also pretty good vs. Elves. Grows big quickly and gains you life while doing so. Don't get me wrong, Elves!'ll always be a tricky MU. I run 4 PtE, 3 Pernicious Deed and have 2 Golgari Charm in the SB and it's still somewhat of a coin toss.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4554551//
I don't know if Crop Rotation is where we want to be. You should look on vs. which MUs you'd want to use it and weigh the opportunity cost of what you'd normally run in its place. If you mean to use it vs. Merit Lage, that deck also runs Wasteland + Life from the Loam. Pithing Needle on Thespian's Stage might be better.
Yes, progenitus elves is a thing here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Karakas also helps vs reanimator / sneak decks. Worst case, get wasteland or tower, or even volraths.
Alrighty COMMUNITY CHALLENGE:
Taking into account that merit lage comes in end of turn and one shots you;
What is a card that deals both with him and progenitus? Let's see what options we have.
Terminus and Peacekeeper come to mind.
Not much else though.
Peacekeeper you say..
I like that.. Stops repeat offenders. Punishing fire is a problem, but you can't have it all..
Good, good. Other thoughts? Let's crowd source this!
Humility
Edict effects (personally I like To The Slaughter for also killing Jace)
Faster clock of our own (ie. Scapeshift or other combo plan)
Elephant Grass / Blazing Archon / Peacekeeper
Humility might be too slow @4 mana. And how (and when) do you plan to drop Blazing Archon (and have it happening fast and consistently enough)..?
Could always play our own copies of NO and run Elderscale Wurm. Lands and Elves don't have an answer (unless Elves runs Shaman of the Pack).
I don't think it's something to worry about that much. We have spot removal for Marit Lage, and Progenitus is not exactly common even in Elves at the moment.
A sub-playset of paths is all we really have for leige and progenitus is common for me at least. It really gives elves resilience.
Plus whatever we come up with here would also help with reanimator and sneak. Yay fringe benefits.
Not proud of this one, but just spitballing here:
Ensnaring bridge?
Preaching to the choir, sister.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Crackling doom would be the best, but needs a red splash.
If you ask me, I would say Humility. But that's just me ;)
One of the best answers would be: Hallowed Moonlight
- It's a can trip
- Manage Merit and an opponnent NO/GSZ at instant speed
- Also very good against any reanimate deck
Leaving 3 non-green mana open is quite the opportunity cost, if you ask me...
To which bad cards am I playing that I mentioned to make the life loss from Horizon Canopy off set. I mentioned Siege Rhino, Thragtusk, Kitchen Finks and Umezawa's Jitte.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Siege Rhino and Thragtusk are both pretty common in junk nic fit and both have nice ETB. Siege Rhino has a big body and trample which means he can't be chump blocked all day and Thragtusks second triggered ability is very good, especially against decks like Miracles with Terminus.
Kitchen Finks is ran as a value creature that you can pod into when you aren't looking for a silver bullet and just want to keep podding up into bigger threats. Its also good against aggro decks.
Umezawa's jitte is here for matchups like DnT, Elves and other creature based decks to own the battlefield.
None of these cards are ran to "off set" the life from horizon canopy they are ran for different purposes as mentioned above. It is because they all gain life that adding horizon canopy seemed reasonable.
Kitchen Finks sucks. Why bother w/ Finks when you can Pod to Eternal Witness, Pod Witness into Meren, recur Witness, Pod Witness into Siege Rhino for several turns in a row?
Or Pod your 2-drop into Eternal Witness, regrow your 2-drop, Pod your 2-drop into Eldrazi Displacer and start bouncing your Eternal Witness..? Displacer + Witness + Path to Exile = screw you, Merit Lage!
I can 100% get behind thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
So what are peoples thoughts on bridge?
Stops elves until they can bring out a rec sage in addition to the other stuff.
Hinders sneak attack, reanimator, merit lage. Some of those decks don't even have an answer for it.
Bring it in vs merfolk as they can grow out of hand and keep looping rhinos.
May be a bit cute, but it's a hard to answer, very broad answer.
Bridge is alright. We should probably have tested it more than we have.
Good against:
- Eldrazi
- Elves
- Sneak and Show
- Reanimator
- Lands
Sneak and Show, Lands and Reanimator will generally have to remove the Bridge.
Eldrazi gets shut down pretty well, I guess they're on Endbringer pings?
Elves have removal for Bridge, or can just kill you with Shaman of the Pack.
Problems, though:
- Doesn't come in against Miracles
- Doesn't come in against Storm
- Doesn't come in against Death and Taxes
- Doesn't come in against Delver
I don't know if we have slots available for cards which aren't relevant in any of those. Personally 100% of my sideboard is relevant in one or more of those matchups - I shore up Elves by running Golgari Charm which also helps with DnT.
Bridge is one of the standard hate cards those decks face, ofcourse they have answers to it. Seriously.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4554551//
Merfolk should be managable w/ your spot removal suite (as long as it's > 1 Abrupt Decay) and Pernicious Deeds, no need to bring in Bridge there. You should only aim to use Bridge vs. decks that sneak fatties into play. When doing so, be aware that it's mostly just a speedbump - you still need to close the game ASAP.
Sure, it is a speedbump, but that's still better than no speedbump.
It's also a matter of maybe getting away with it game 2 as they may not expect a bridge out of nicfit, or 3 if it's not seen game 2.
I'd bring it in for miracles. Sure it's not amazing, but holds off angels and monks. They have disenchant but then they have to deal with it and deeds. Not great, but we've got a lot we can take out.
Also, golgari charm.. It's a nice hit for instant gain, but I've really been getting mileage out of engineered play. Names elves, merfolk, and against delver decks and hate bears, names human.
Also against miracles names monk and against infect inkmoth (or blinkmoth is the type I believe) . Or human if you're having agent problems. With heirarcs being a bonus casualty (again both human)
Yet costs 1 mana more, which can be the difference between life and death.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4554551//
On a side note, vs. Elves! Golgari Charm also takes out Wirewood Symbiote, which is a pretty big thing. As a former Elves! pilot I can tell you Plague isn't quite the end-all and b/c Charm also kills off Symbiote it possibly hurts the Elves! player more than Engineered Plague does. But that's just nit picking.
Bridge is also something that no one would really expect from Nic Fit. Not saying it's a good idea...maybe as a siding replacement for Deeds against the decks that sneak stuff in? I often have a lot of trouble with Sneak/Show.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
If it has a home in Nic Fit as a sideboard card, it would probably be in a more controlling walker shell. I could see BUG Fit with Jace and Liliana being willing to have Bridges available. Or something close to what Danny is running in the Mediocre League - 4 Oath of Nissa, 9 Planeswalkers (which I really really want to try sometime).
Curious question - are there any 5-6 drop bomby creatures, preferably green, that can win a game, or control the board through a Bridge? I don't think we are a bridge deck, but am just curious if there are any GSZ-able creatures that can reliably win under one.
Diabolic Edict or Clip Wings are fine answers to Marit Lage that will come in vs a number of other decks. Edict is likely better generally, but Clip Wings gets a Delver even with YP on board.
JBone got a shout out from Seth(SaffronOlive) from mtggoldfish
go vote for the deck tech so we can get more viewership. Youtube/mtggoldfish
My buddies mentioned that to me. Sweet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
Also, I resolved and ultimated an Ugin against miracles yesterday. That was sweet.
So I've been thinking about my question a page or two back about Ranger of Eos. The conclusion I've come to is that it's basically the same thing as Stoneforge Mystic. They're both non GSZ'able tutors that act as mana sinks, and can swing. The only question is, would you rather tutor equipment or 1 drops.
Here's the pro's/con's I see for each
Stoneforge Mystic:
Pro:
Equipment (Jitte/SoFaI) can act as removal.
Equipment can act as a threat (Batterskull).
Is an early game 2 for 1.
Fills 2, 3, 4, 5 and 7 on the curve.
Flips to Bob for 2.
Con:
Takes up 3 slots minimum, more likely 7.
Equipment needs creatures, but including the package reduces creature count.
Package reduces removal count.
Equipment is very vulnerable to discard.
Weak body on it's own. Very weak if removed before activating.
First SFM is much better than the second.
Dies to Deed.
Ranger of Eos:
Pro:
Takes few slots.
Is a mid game 3 for 1.
Mid sized body.
Can ramp from 4 to 6 to GSZ Sigarda.
Can gain life.
Tutor targets are less vulnerable to discard.
Can represent A LOT of power (tutor Hangarback/Endless One + body)
Can go wide, tall, dodge combat/ramp (DRS), or even control (Sylvan Safekeeper)
Con:
Baseline targets are 4 Vets/2 DRS, extras come out of other slots.
2 Toughness
Flips to Bob for 4 (though DRS can mitigate this)
Baseline tutor package is low impact outside of DRS
Can do nothing before 4 mana
Higher on the curve means fewer can be run
Anything I missed? The more I think about it the more I really want to run Ranger of Eos. Unfortunately I think I'm committed to Burn at my next Legacy event or two in order to back up some recent theories I've come up with, with experience so it will be awhile before I really get to test Ranger. There's just something about the idea of Ranger of Eos, tutor Sylvan Safekeeper, Hangarback Walker, next turn make a big Hangarback with protection or the old standby of play Ranger get double Deathrite that I really like. I could also get behind making a giant Endless One so that I'm not reliant on just Rhino/Sigarda for a big body. If you want to get really tricky assuming you've got a Therapy you could get Dryad Arbor+Veteran Explorer and drop 3 lands in a turn for Tracker making him a Harmonize on a 3/2 body. If you want to go deep you could even tutor up a Kytheon with Safekeeper to protect it.
All of these cards demand design space. Sfm/Eos ect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
So for a four drop would you rather have 2 1 drops or an equipment?
In the conventional junk fit I would rather have the deck space. With the rhinos and meren it can get a bit cramped.
While card advantage can be an issue with this deck [atleast in my experience], you want to make sure that when you drop him he's better than a rhino or a meren I'm the situation.
Thoughts?
Ranger demands 1 slot for a minimal package. We already run 7 targets typically between 4 Vet/2 DRS/1 Arbor. Getting 2 DRS puts a very real clock into play (not to mention a nice mana sink since you'll be getting to the point where you can use it). Getting 1 DRS, 1 Vet isn't horrible and the package also does double duty with your GSZ's. Where you start running into space issues is when you go beyond the basic package. I found the full SFM package of 3 SFM's 3 Equipment to take up too many spaces in the deck and I found my half package of 1 SFM 2 Equipment to not be potent enough. I think it would be reasonable here to make a package of 1 Ranger, 1 tutor target. That frees up one more card from the SFM package which can be a much needed removal spell and gives me some utility while still maintaining a decent array of tutor targets. It also offers the opportunity for SB slots.Quote:
Originally Posted by aicnelavo
CA is really the least of my concerns in my build, but it is something I like to maximize in order to keep it being such a small concern. What's great about Ranger though in my opinion is that it's the first 4 drop I've come up with that's playable in Junk, isn't a bad Bob flip, and generates CA. Rhinos are great for categories 1 and 2 while Meren is great for 2 and 3, but Ranger is all 3 at the cost of not being a GSZ target.
It's something that I really want to try the more I think about it.
Sweet, what did you play?Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone2016
MainQuote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
Lands
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Bayou
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Swamp (should be another fetch, but Verdant $$$)
3 Forest
2 Plains
Creatures
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman (might go back to explorer #4)
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
2 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
Spells
3 Path to Exile
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate
1 Painful Truths
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Garruk Relentless
4 Green Sun's Zenith
Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth (still disappointed with her)
2 Thoughtseize
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Reclamation Sage
Deathrite Shaman comes to mind :laugh:. And looping a Siege Rhino. Bridge gives you plenty of time to mess around with Meren.Quote:
Originally Posted by square_two