main deck karakas plus Kotr helps a ton vs show and tell tooQuote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
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main deck karakas plus Kotr helps a ton vs show and tell tooQuote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
If everyone could stop taking everything so personally, that would be great.Quote:
Originally Posted by zmattk
I played T.E.S. for over a year. This was before Ad Nauseam and after, with Mystical Tutor and without. I know all about how complex that deck is, with playing around Counters, Discard, Hate Pieces. I was referring also to different decks. Ooze combo, Painter-Stone, Thopter Foundry, Show and Tell, Reanimator, and Storm. These decks win too fast for Zoo, and do it with ease. They're also becoming more popular. Storm is harder to play because it requires perfect sequencing against Blue decks. If you make a single mistake, you can get 2, 3, or X for 1ed by 0cc/1cc blue spells. That's pretty high pressure. Is Combo hard to play against Zoo? Absolutely not. They can ignore your cards pre-board, and you have to get lucky to win. I would rather play a deck with the same amazing creatures, that has blue cards that are good in every matchup. It seems like sound logic.
I think your deck looks interesting but I think you end up with a much better combo matchup and a much worse tribal aggro matchup. Its hard to say if that makes the deck better or worse in the aggregate.
While I hate butchering the manabase to handle literally one matchup, the next list I play will probably have 3 KOTR MD and 1 Karakas. I do share everyones' sentiments in this thread of losing to Combo decks, and while packing Red Blasts is probably a good idea anyways (Merfolk, CBTop, Control), it generally isn't going to be enough. An addition 2-3 REB will probably not increase your chances of beating SnT by that much.Quote:
Originally Posted by ajfennewald
With a little less tribal than the other 5K's (2 in the Top 16 this time), I don't think the change will affect a whole lot. Your MD should be configured to beat the elephant in the room, right now it's Counterbalance.
I think the main concern is not whether or not zoo is a good deck...it is and always will be. The real quandry is 'how do I make it work?"
I've been toying around with naya sligh, with great results. The one deck that it really folds against is Staxx...and Staxx isn't that prevalent right now. I suppose Dragon Stompy is a concern as well because it touts the whole Chalice/Trini route to locking out an opponent. The biggest fear is that kind of lock with a sligh deck, because it turns your fast turns off. Chalice @1 on TURN 1 with Ancient Tomb makes me say 'poop'. Turn 2 Trinisphere delays my Pridemages, and makes me need alternative hate in my sideboard (Grips or Ancient Grudge.) If I take too long to get to 3 lands or they hit a Wasteland or 2, I say 'Big juicy poop. Game 2?'
My testing is essentially naya sligh, but keeping Pridemage and Path to Exile maindeck rather than the faster Goblin Guide/added burn. Path can be sb-ed out game 2 for more burn or hatebears, and Pridemage gives you options game one against a fast Chalice. Steppe Lynx and Nacatl become lightning fast with Reckless Charge, giving you a slightly faster clock. This opens you up to some mid-range control decks (Bant, New Horizons, Junk/Rock) but hopefully by that time you've gotten them to 10 life and you can Fireblast/Grim Lavamancer/Bolt your way to victory.
I think the real problem with Naya Sligh is it's lack of ability to re-group and bring mid-late game options. I'm fairly certain that a minimum of 2-3 Sylvan Librarys should be in Naya Sligh, and a playset wouldn't be bad either. Naya Sligh (any sligh really) historically has a hard time against ANY lifegain, too, so Sulfuric Vortex becomes a solid option in the board (assuming 21 lands.)
I"m curious if anyone else debating the faster Reckless Charge/additional burn avenue over the bigger Knight of the Reliquary mid-game beats. I'm also curious how many Library's you are using currently, and if you feel that it's workign well/not well (I currently use 2)
I was wondering if anyone has any insight on why zoo does not appear to be a tier one deck anymore. The field still looks like one it should perform reasonably well against (lotsa merfolk and goblins not a ton of combo).
I'm not entirely sure. I think it may be partly due to Counterbalance's resurgence (Zoo has never liked CTop very much), but I think it has more to do with people just not playing the deck. The one zoo player in my meta has been tearing it up, getting top-2 just about every week through a field of heavy control, chalice decks, and occasional combo. Also, I think too many people are deluding themselves into thinking "Big Zoo" is actually a real deck, which leads to them not doing well.Quote:
Originally Posted by ajfennewald
EDIT: Another issue is that a lot of the tribal decks are now splashing black for Perish/Nature's Ruin, which makes the matchup a LOT worse for zoo (especially "Big Zoo") postboard.
It depends on where you're looking.
Maybe the people in your area are fighting combo verses control and there isn't much room for aggro decks to make it to the top tables before facing more than one bad match up. You have to be specific when mentioning things like Tier X or metagame, not everyone everywhere is having the same experience.
Personally it's not a bad choice to run Nacatls around here, more people are doing so.
Does Thrun have a place in Zoo? It avoids Counterbalance, Swords to Plowshares, and Firespout. Perish wouldn't be a problem since the decks that usually pack Perish to beat Zoo (Merfolk and Goblins usually in my experience) don't need Thrun boarded in. The 4/4 body is unimpressive, especially when facing Goyf in CB but Elspeth certainly makes Thrun really good.
I know this idea would probably get dismissed anyway but I'm gonna give it a run for at least a little bit. I saw it in an Enchantress vs CB matchup (Enchantress player played it) and the Counterbalance player couldn't get rid of it.
People probably have no idea 1) how to build a good sideboard and 2) how to sideboard correctly. Also, people are probably not building their maindeck correctly in relation to the current metagame.Quote:
Originally Posted by ajfennewald
*edit*
Call.Quote:
Counterbalance's resurgence (Zoo has never liked CTop very much)
Again, I think most players do not really understand what's going on in the matchups. And, as a result, they are not sideboard'ing correctly.
For that reason, I think every Zoo sideboard should have three Sulfuric Vortex. It's not a hate card, it's a speedier clock. CB doesn't want a speedier clock and when does it bring in or keeps Enchantment hate? I also agree that most players don't understand match ups well enough to formulate sideboard strategies.
Hi, i am building my legacy zoo now and i am deciding what version to build. My local metagame is full of aggro-control, control and weird combos. For example last top8 was Stax, Combo Elves, Rock, Landstill, Merfolk, Enchantress, BG Discard and Dredge.
I think the best version riight now is fast version called Cat Sligh - Nacatl, Goyf, Guide, Lavamancer, Steppe lynx and a lot of burn - you are fast enought to beat slower combo decks and you can land enought creatures to fight counterbalance before they have countertop lock. But i see that people play a lot of different versions like Big Zoo with Hiearchs or with Stoneforge Mystic etc.
Can someone help me with this decision?
Don't run Big Zoo in this meta. The sligh build probably has the best chance of racing Enchantress and Dredge, so I would play that. It also has the best chance against storm combo (if that shows up) due to its speed and large amounts of burn. For that matter, having 20+ burn spells is really good against elf combo as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by GhekoN
I like Big Zoo in general, but I would agree with Admiral_Arzar here. Play normal Zoo or Cat Sligh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
Hi, after a hours of testing fast - medium fast version of zoo i am still not contended with my results.
My list:
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [MBS] Forest
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [MBS] Plains
3 [R] Plateau
1 [R] Savannah
2 [R] Taiga
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ZEN] Steppe Lynx
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
2 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
2 [HOP] Lightning Helix
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
2 [DD2] Fireblast
4 [M11] Lightning Bolt
3 [CFX] Path to Exile
2 [5E] Sylvan Library
2 [EX] Price of Progress
Problems i had during testing:
1. Lands - Constantly drawing only one land or 4-5, every time i had Steppe Lynx i my openenig hand i never draw third land during 5-6 turns...
2. Steppe Lynx - It is nice and aggresive creature, but in deck with 21 lands?? Too often it was just 0/1 for x turns which cant block... I am really thinking about playing Kird Ape or Loam Lion instead.
3. Knight of the Reliquary - I started without him but sometimes this deck cant deal with opponents Knights or bigger creatures and also he can fuel Steppe Lynx. Also another card vs. Dredge and graveyard stuff after sb.
Some thoughts or ideas? :)
How do you guys approach using fetchlands in the Goblins matchup? We're definitely favored, but it's not a cakewalk anymore.
Obviously, it depends on how many lands you have in your hand, the color requirements, whether you're applying pressure (or if they're applying pressure on you, especially with an active Vial). But do you tend to fetch out basics to protect against Wasteland? But that allows them to cut you off a color with Rishadan Port. What considerations do you make in this process?
You should be SB'ing Steppe Lynx out against Aggro decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by GhekoN
Why would you want to do that? And what do you suggest to play instead?Quote:
Originally Posted by KrzyMoose
The first step is to understand what you want to be doing in each matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy Eddie
Here's my current list:
21 Lands, with 11 Fetchlands, 3 Basics, and 1 Treetop Village
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Ranger of Eos
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 Chain Lightning
2 Lightning Helix
2 Sylvan Library
2 Fireblast
Sideboard:
2 Ranger of Eos
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Volcanic Fallout
2 Krosan Grip
1 Bajuka Bog
3 Sulfuric Vortex
Let's take a look at the Zoo mirror. Neither of you can really get off to a super-fast start, since you both have a lot of removal that's good against the small dudes. The games, then, tend to go long, and it usually comes down to whoever draws more Tarmogoyfs/Paths/Knights. In general, you want to be the guy with the last, biggest monster on the table. (Though, this is true of many other Aggro matchups, not just the mirror). So, how do you do that? By having bigger guys and more removal than your opponent. You want your threats to be hard to answer, and you want to align your removal with your opponents threats.
Steppe Lynx (and, for that matter, Kird Ape and Loam Lion) is both smaller than your opponent's threats and very easy to answer. That does not sound like where you want to be.
So, post-board, we want better (and more) removal, and better threats.
A quick aside on building a sideboard: Every card in your sideboard should be able to be brought in against at least 2 decks. I feel that cards should answer different archetypes or general problems, rather than specific decks. Also, yes, I can't beat a fast combo deck. That's on purpose.
Path to Exile becomes the best spell in the deck, so we want more of them. Swords to Plowshares is the next best thing, so I recommend them. (The life-gain is usually irrelevant). They also come in against a bunch of different decks. Oblivion Ring is also pretty good, and very versatile.
You can think of Ranger of Eos as a 6-mana 9/8 or a 6-mana 6/5 with R: deal 2 damage to target creature or player. It's also pretty much immune to removal.
So, we have 6 cards to bring in. We know for sure we're taking Steppe Lynx/Loam Lion/Kird Ape out. What else? Well, your other creatures are actually all good enough to leave in. So that leaves spells. Lightning Bolt and Path obviously stay in, since they're the best at what they do. Sylvan Library helps you find your threats and answers. That leaves the other burn spells. I actually like Fireblast in the mirror. Since games tend to go long, you're never short on mana. I often just straight-up cast it, and even paying the alternate cost is not that bad. Lightning Helix is an instant, and helps you activate Library more. So, that gets the nod over Chain Lightning.
That's a brief explanation. I could easily write an article on Zoo, since there is always a lot going on. But, that should give you some idea of my thought process.
KrzyMoose: thank you for your explanation. I understand your point, but you've limited yourself to the Zoo Mirror. Over here (the Netherlands) Zoo isn't that often played, so Zoo mirrors are quite rare, Merfolk and Gobbo's are the more popular aggro decks here. But given the popularity of those decks, I'm thinking about replacing my Steppe Lynxes for Kird Apes again, since they are also capable of blocking early Lackeys etc.
Also: my mainboard is comparable, but my sideboard looks quite different:
- 2x Umezawa's Jitte (Goblins, Merfolk, Mirror, other decks with Jitte's)
- 3x Elspeth, Knight-Errant (Rock, Control, Mirror, CounterTop)
- 3x Krosan Grip
- 2x Choke (quite Flexible at this moment)
- 4x Ethersworn Canonist (Storm, Elves, anything that wants to cast a lot of spells)
- 1x Karakas/Bojuka Bog/meta-slot
Since I'm thinking about putting Kird Apes back into the mainboard, I can lower my number of fetches slightly, play three different basics (currently only one Mountain), and put Suppresion Fiels again in the board, since it's really good against anything with lots of fetches, Wastelands, Tops, Planeswalkers, etc.