I think Ensnaring Bridge is also justifiable when one of your win conditions is Ugin.
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I think Ensnaring Bridge is also justifiable when one of your win conditions is Ugin.
Ensnaring Bridge can backfire from time to time. I used to run another in the sideboard but I took that out. Yeah there's quite a bit of Sneak/show in my area. Plus it's good to slow down beatings from Goyfs/Delvers. Bridge is also great vs Lands as the token is a 20/20.
Have yet to play Batterskull in a game. I rarely see it. It's a threat that I bring in when a threat maindeck isn't as relevant. Or sometimes I board out a bit of the Forgemaster package if I feel I am going to see Null Rod or Stifle.
Trying out the Crucible. Haven't boarded it in very much. It's for heavy wasteland decks like RUG Delver and for Lands.
Just FYI I have been running 2 batter skulls in my sideboard for almost a year now. I really like it vs BUG and miracles because it's harder to permanently remove and the life gain can be relevant. I've also boarded them in vs burn and decks like uwr stone blade or ur delver for the life gain and difficulty to kill. Even if they swords the germ I can still throw batterskull on a metal worker and be back in business. I really like it in the board.
Trinisphere makes it much harder for your opponent to cast more than one spell per turn. Really messes up burn and infect. Also does work against pyromancer or mentor strategies. Having both puts your opponent in a very tough spot in regards to how they use their removal.
Edit: I didn't reloas the page, this is in response to the Trini discussion last page.
Trinispheres is good against Turn 2-3 combo decks, tempo decks, aggro decks, and blue-based control, and is usually a main deck card. Thorn of Amethyst is good against Turn 1-2 combo decks like TES, Belcher, Tin Fins, and other glass cannon decks, which the main reason why I have that card in my SB, due to their popularity of those decks in my meta. It is not wrong to play both either, with Trinisphere in the main and Thorn in the side.Quote:
Thorn v Trinisphere is an interesting point. I'm regularly underwhelmed by Trinisphere. My line of thinking tends to be: "So Chalice is shutting off their 1 drops, and Lodestone can make their 2-drops cost 3. What's the point of Trinisphere, then?" Of course, there are obviously a bunch of problems with that thought, and who knows how many times a Trinisphere has looked to me like it isn't doing much, but it's making my opponent sweat? That said, Thorn has been devastating against Storm decks, and after playing some Vintage Shops, I wouldn't mind testing it out maindeck.
I do not play Trinispheres in my Welder or Post-less MUD decks because it doesn't fit what my deck wants to accomplish. I do play Trinspheres in the main whenever I do play with Cloudpost though. When I play my Post-less MUD deck, I play quite a few one drops and two drops per turn for the first few turns because I build them to be super aggressive, and Trinsipheres would only slow me down. At the same time, I don't really care to slow my opponent down, while Cloudpost builds would usually benefit from that. If you look at the average Cloudpost list, they play no one-drops and maybe ten-two drops, and a much higher mana curve. The mana curve in my Post-less decks are much lower compared to Cloudpost decks, so the design theory is different. I would advocate sticking with Trinispheres in the main if you are on the Cloudpost plan.
Also, I think it is dangerous to compare cards that are good in Vintage, and try to use the same justification in Legacy. In Legacy, Thorn is a poor main deck card because there are a lot of creature-based strategies, it only produces a marginal tax against most decks in Legacy, and it doesn't have a body attached to it.
The reason why Thorn in amazingly good in Shops is because Vintage tends to be light on creature spells, it acts as resource denial, and most importantly, it acts as mana source denial. You see, in Vintage, a lot of decks are super greedy with low land counts that are non-basic and relies on moxen, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, etc. for fast mana. It is not uncommon for a deck to have only 13-16 lands. Let's you are on the play and your opponent has Volc, Sapphire, Ruby, and Recall, which is a very good keep. If you do not play a Sphere effect, you opponent can play all four cards and go way ahead. If you play one sphere effect, your opponent can only play Volc and the moxen, but not the Recall. If you play two sphere effects in one turn, your opponent can't even play the moxen until they draw a second land. If you Waste or Strip Mine their land under sphere effects, it is pretty much good games because you are now way ahead of them in terms of resources, and you potentially locked them out from playing Magic. This is why Chalice is now restricted, because it was too harsh against the person on draw. This is also why it is very common for you to see additional lands in sideboards (a basic Mountain in blue-based control, Ghost Quarters in the shops mirror, Barbarian Rings in dredge, etc). This is why Stax is much more powerful as a strategy in Vintage compared to Legacy. It hits a lot more angles.
If you want to talk about Vintage, give me a PM. I am currently playing Null Rod Smokestacks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZEROorDIE
Thanks guys! I might have given the wrong impression: I have no intention of dropping Trinisphere. It's a card with weaknesses that sometimes irk me, but it takes about 5 seconds for me to come around and recognize how great it is :laugh: As a basic test of that, just try to think about how often people Force it: Trinisphere makes a lot of decks sweat. In my (Cloudpost) build, Thorn gets 2 slots in the board. It's been great in that position, and while I have no intention of dropping it from the board, I also don't plan on maindecking it.Quote:
Originally Posted by L10
Played the weekly at Pat's Games tonight. 12ish players, I think? Went 2-1-1.
Round 1: Omnitell: 2-1
- Game I: He counters my Trinisphere, but my Lodestone, Wurmcoil, and Greaves quickly eat him. He only plays cantrips, Forces, and basic lands, so I don't really know what he's on.
- Game 2: (I don't know what he's on, but I hedge my bet and guess it's a Show and Tell deck. +1 Spine, -1 Sundering Titan.) Turns out I'm right. He gets an early Show and Tell. I have the Spine for his Omniscience, but he does obnoxious things with Cunning Wish, Firemind's Foresight, and Enter the Ants in response. Ouch.
- Game 3: (Same as game 2, but +2 Thorn, +1 Platinum Angel, -1 Wurmcoil, -1 Ugin. In retrospect, Sundering Titan would have been smarter than Platinum Angel) He counters my Chalice, but I stick a Thorn, Wurmcoil, and Forgemaster. He plays a Dream Halls, but is tapped out and I kill him next turn. Over the course of this game, I have a total of 5 Ancient Tombs (thanks to Vesuva), so I take a lot of damage :eek:
Round 2: Deadguy Ale: 2-0
- Game 1: Pretty grindy match. An early Sculler grabs my Wurmcoil. I Spine the Sculler, then play Wurmcoil + Greaves. However, he gets Batterskull + Jitte, kills off my Metalworkers, and eventually kills the Wurmcoil in combat . . . I luck out, topdeck a Forgemaster, activate it off the Greaves, and Blightsteel for the win.
- Game 2: (+2 Pithing Needle, -1 Metalworker, -1 Forgemaster.) Pretty durdly start for both of us, with him Needling my Forgemaster, us Wasting each other, and him Decaying my Monolith. Things aren't looking great when I have a pair of Sol Lands and a Cavern vs his Deathrite and Stoneforge, but I topdeck an Ugin one turn, Monolith the next, wipe the board, and he scoops.
Round 3: Grixis Tezz: 1-1-1
- Game 1: Same guy I played Tuesday, and every game is a grind. We both build up massive boards, but he never hits a Welder so my stuff is relatively safe. Bridge holds off my fatties for most of the game, but I Forgemaster out a Sundering Titan to blow up some lands, then eventually Forgemaster again for a Staff of Nin to ramp up my card draw and ping down his Tezzeret. Eventually a Spine eats the Bridge, and I swing for the win.
- Game 2: (-4 Lodestone, +2 Crucible, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Spine. I know he's got Needles so I'd like to board out some Ugins/Forgemasters, but I'm following L10's advice and trying not to board too much.) Another long grind whose details I don't remember, but I think eventually Tezz got me.
- Game 3: I keep a super-iffy opener, but at 1-1 with 5 minutes left in the round, I'm not playing very intelligently. We go to turns. He has Jace, 2 Welders and a Spellskite, so eventually he'd win. However, his deck doesn't have any fast kills, so we go to time.
Round 4: BUG: 0-2
- Game 1: He decays my Chalices etc, then plays a Stiflenaught not long therafter. I try to Forgemaster out a Blightsteel in response, but he Stifles the Forgemaster. Ew.
- Game 2: (+2 Crucible, +2 Ratchet Bomb -2 Forgemaster, -2 something. I'm tired.) I feel good starting with Turn 1 Chalice, Turn 2 Crucible. Unfortunately, he counters the Crucible and lands a turn 2 Confidant. That nets him 3 Goyfs over the next 3 turns, and he eats me alive.
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Ever since I've started playing MUD, I've heard and read a lot of people talk about MUD as 1) a combo deck, 2) explosive, and 3) wildly inconsistent. I agree with 1 and 2 to a certain extent, but I feel more like it's multi-modal. Yeah, sometimes we land a quick Blightsteel and win, and sometimes we ramp into a few Lodestones & Wurmcoils. However, there are just as many (or more) games where I take a cool, calm, collected mindset and play for the long game. I expect some of my earl Chalices, Spheres, Metalworkers, etc to get countered or blown up, so instead I try to build up mana and eat counterspells until I can drop a well-timed Ugin, Sundering Titan, or whatever.
On the consistency note, I dunno. I guess if you're used to Top and Brainstorm, MUD might be frustrating. However, I find that I'm not mulling often and that the decks performs pretty reliably. I usually feel in control of what I'm doing, and when I lose, it's more because of my lack of interactivity than because MUD is a wild, unreliable engine. Likewise, topdeck mode feels fine. Yes, every other draw is likely to be a mana source, but the draws that aren't mana sources can all win games. That feels better than a topdeck mode where you're probably drawing mana, counterspells, or cantrips (which require further mana investment).
Obviously the deck has weaknesses (lack of interaction, poor card fixing, and troubles with Stifle/Waste/Needle/discard/artifact hate all spring to mind). However, after a month and a half playing MUD against a pretty diverse array of decks, I think its reputation is . . . strange.
Coming weekend i'l ve playing (after a long pause) on at a LGS. I still have to make up what i want to play. Either BUG Delver or MUD. Since i expect a lot of combo and Miracles ill probably go for MUD. But then i could go for Welder/Daretti or for Cloud w/ Ugin/Karn. In both cases with Forgemaster. I really like that list you posted, but what i really would like see is a very aggresive list (Cloudpost simply can't be that), with easy support of/for Ugin. What should i do...Quote:
Originally Posted by L10
That's a tall order, my friend. I think you can support Daretti and Ugin, but I think you'd have to drop the Welder. I'd also add some copies of Voltaic Key and Thran Dynamo to help facilitate the mana issue. I may lose the Lodestone Golems too since they would only tax both Planeswalkers. Maybe something like this?
Land (23)
4x Wasteland
4x Great Furnace
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
3x Mountain
Creature (15)
4x Metalworker
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
3x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Sundering Titan
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Blightsteel Colossus
Planeswalker (5)
3x Daretti, Scrap Savant
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Artifact (17)
4x Grim Monolith
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Voltaic Key
2x Lightning Greaves
1x Thran Dynamo
1x Staff of Nin
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Batterskull
I may try a way to add Trinispheres too for protection. Maybe even a Razormane Masticore. I think Deretti is good enough for a splash itself, actually.
If you want to talk about Stax in legacy the thread here in the source is getting slightly more interest than usual (usually none) at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by L10
Sib
Im just looking at that list and i really want to see a 1 of Tanglewire, saccing the Citadels to get it back etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by L10
Maybe its win more? Should be able to keep a few things tapped.
But then again you do run a good amount of creatures... Maybe it just goes against what you want your deck to do.
EDIT: Btw guys and gals, where can i read up on matchups in this thread?
Played my first games with my MUD deck, won easily against elves preboard, after sideboarding he drew nullrod first game + Reclamation sage.
However i noticed that i should always check how many creatures he has on field, lost both games after sideboard to Natural Order for a Craterhoof while having 2 other creatures in play (deathrite and a Dryad Arbor). 16 damage just like that. aka Craterhoof Math.
Trinisphere should keep them in check for a while.
Something looks similar here... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by L10
Haha, yeah, I didn't want to just post your list without your permission. This is basically my take on your list, though, which is still very much a rough draft. I like the added constancy that Thran Dynamo and Key provides, and increase in threat density compared to your list, but at the cost of protection (Trinisphere).
Played MUD today with some minor tweaks, adjusting for post-DTT ban.
-1 Myr Battlesphere, +1 Wurmcoil Engine
-1 Wasteland, +1 Vesuva (as we are not a tempo deck, and due to plan of naming Wasteland with increased Pithing Needles on the side)
SB changes:
-1 Crucible of Worlds, -1 Tsabo's Web, + 2 Pithing Needle
-1 Sundering Titan, +1 Karn Liberated
Meandeck MUD v1.06:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
3 Trinisphere
1 Staff of Domination
1 Staff of Nin
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland
3 Cavern of Souls
SB:
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Powder Keg
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphere
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Coercive Portal
2 Karn Liberated
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Match 1: UWr Stoneblade, winning die roll
Game 1: i mull to 6. Mid-game, I was able to Chalice for 1 then Forgemaster for Blightsteel (1-0)
I sided in 2 Karn Liberated, 1 Ugin, 1 Coercive Portal, taking out 1 Lodestone Golem, 2 Wurmcoil, 1 Spine of Ish Sah
Game 2: Mull to 6. I get overwhelmed by Clique, Stoneforge-Batterskull, and TNN. I had a chance to Chalice for 2 and Ugin, but I ended up casting Ugin first, meeting Counterspell... A misplay that costed me the game. (1-1)
SB: -1 Trinisphere, +1 Lodestone Golem
Game 3: Keep my 7. I forgot what happened this game, but I won. (2-1)
Match 2: Bant Thopter combo, winning the die roll.
Game 1: I mulled to 6 keeping a Wasteland, another land, and four other cards. I thought he was playing BUG, so a Wasteland from his side means I'll be out. He mulls to 5 keeping a one-lander. I waste his only land and play Trinisphere two turns after, he scoops. (3-1)
SB: -4 Chalice, -1 Kuldotha Forgemaster, -1 Spine of Ish Sah, and a bunch of other stuff I don't remember. +3 Pithing Needle, +1 Coercive Portal, +2 Karn Liberated, +1 Ugin, +1 Trinisphere
Game 2: We both mull to six and keep. He has a 2nd turn Thopter Foundry, which surprises me. my 2nd turn was a Pithing Needle on Thopter Foundry. We ended up going to late game with him having an Ensnaring Bridge, Jace (which was Brainstorming him for at least 3 turns), and Engineered Explosives on 1. I played a Sundering Titan under a Cavern to wipe out all but two of his lands, but he chose to StP my Titan even if he had Bridge, leaving him only with Academy Ruins. I cast Ugin the turn after, uncountered and he scoops (realizing his misplay as well). (4-1)
Match 3: Death and Taxes, winning the die roll
Game 1: keeping my 7 with two Wastelands while he mulled to 6. I play Wasteland, he plays Port and Vial. I Waste his Port EoT. I play Tomb into Monolith.He ticks his Vial to 1 and plays Karakas. I play my 2nd Wasteland and waste his Karakas, also casting Chalice for 1. He ticks Vial to 2 and plays another Port. I go off with City, Greaves, Forgemaster,equip, sac Forgemaster, Monolith, and Chalice, keeping Greaves, and fetching for Blightsteel. He chumps with Serra Avenger. His only out was a white mana, Flickerwisp, and StP, which he doesn't have. (5-1)
SB: -4 Chalice of the Void, -1 Grim Monolith, -1 Metalworker, -1 Spine of Ish Sah, -1 Sundering Titan, +4 Pithing Needle, +1 Ratchet Bomb, +1 Powder Keg, +1 Karn Liberated, +1 Ugin
Game 2: I had two Pithing Needles on my opening hand, which I name Wasteland and Mangara of Corondor after he played it. He doesn't have Vial, but was beating me down with SFM-Batterskull, and Thalia. I get down to 12 with the help of my Tomb, but slowly get ahead with Staff of Nin, Forgemaster and Lodestone, which were used with the Pithing Needle on Wastteland to fetch for Staff of Domination. I kept on getting ahead drawing 2 to 3 cards a turn, going down to 8 before slamming Platinum Emperion and Ugin, to make him scoop. (6-1)
Match 4: I offered to draw but he has a philosophy of never drawing. I was playing Storm, Ad Nauseum style.
Game 1: I mull to 6. I misplay playing Glimmerpost first turn instead of Ancient Tomb. I would have been able to get a Lodestone turn two. Instead, he combos of on his second turn. (6-2)
Game 2: I mull down to 4, keeping a Vesuva, Ancient Tomb, Wasteland, and Lodestone Golem. I scry and see Chalice. Seemed like the perfect mull to 4 for me. I play my Tomb first, he Probes and Ponders. I draw the scryed Chalice, play Wasteland and waste his only land and Chalice for 1. He has land, Petal, Decays my Chalice and tries to go off going down to 1 life and still short. I draw a City of Traitors, cast Lodestone. He scoops. (7-2)
Game 3: I mull to 5 having two Chalices and a Lodestone in hand. He Probes and Therapy my Chalices away. I Trinisphere turn 2, and Lodestone turn 3... but he has Trinisphere Decayed and goes off, over my Golem and gets there. (7-3)
Overall today: 3-1
I was watching a 12-post player whenever I finished, and from what I understood, Pithing Needle was one of the answer to them being vulnerable to Wasteland. I'm feeling pretty satisfied having at least 3 Pithing Needles on my SB, but I'll be running 4 for now to see how it goes.
Why not play a few Crucibles if there are a lot of Wastelands in your meta? Doesn't get locked under Chalice=1 and it's more aggressive play.
While the list looks fine, i am not sure about something like this. You are probably right about it being a tall order. Going for a Daretti control list requires are more staxlike approach. This is where Trinisphere, Golem and perhaps Tangle Wire shine more.Quote:
Originally Posted by L10
If i really want to jam Ugin i might just have to stick to Cloudbase. The Cloudbase hase the raw power and is more consistent, but i might need to sacrifice consistency iot gain explosiveness in the meta i am expecting. Combo and control have a hardtime dealing with that. Making a transformative sideboard to get a more control into Ugin list.
Trinisphere has always been a better card for me then Chalice of the Void even. Most of the builds i have run the combination of 4 Trinisphere, 4 Chalice and 4 Lodestone Golem have been enough to win from combo decks. Every of those 3 named cards have pros and cons and perform different depending the matchup. Cards like Thorn or Sphere of Resistance where never needed and personally i would rather spend board slots on other cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart
BUG is my worsed ever match-up with MUD. How i hate to play against that deck, yug.
I was always running Crucible until last night. It has a very good potential of winning us games and possibly another one of those cards that needs to get removed or suffer vs fair decks. But it has also proven to be a liability at times for me. Against RG lands, Chalice has to be set at 2, so you can still Needle in if they try to combo. Without those two and with Crucible in play (whether Chalice and Needle was Krosan Gripped or I just didn't have it), a double Wasteland a turn through Exploration or even just a single Wasteland just sucked. There were also some times with BUG where a single Wasteland was enough for me not to play Crucible, or have Crucible Spell Pierced. Against DnT, playing the Crucible can pull you back a turn instead of playing a card that can potentially get you ahead. I guess the biggest reason for me to prefer Pithing Needle over Crucible is that I want Cloudpost to stick on the board instead of moving it back and forth between the yard and the battefield. Pithing Needles proved very useful for me last night over Crucible.Quote:
Originally Posted by keys
Has anyone tested Hedron Archive? I am deciding to try it out but I have not run any games with it yet. The idea is that it's a ramp source that helps me cast my big cards but lategame once I have surplus mana I can use it to draw cards, giving me lots of flexibility. I was running a Crystal Vein as my 25th land anyway, and I think having the Archive seems like a better choice since it can be both mana and card draw.
Agreed. While I definitely want to practice and get better vs BUG, any matchup with Waste, Abrupt Decay, countermagic, discard, and (possibly) Stifle in the same deck is gonna be rough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
I'm learning to really appreciate Pithing Needle, but I still think I'd feel uncomfortable without Crucible somewhere in my 75. While the scenarios you've described are absolutely possible, when Crucible is the right option, it can be simultaneously lifesaving for you and backbreaking for your opponent. Plus if it gets Spell Pierced, that's one fewer threat your opponent will be able to counter later :smile:.Quote:
Originally Posted by darkgh0st
Definitely let us know how it goes for you. However, I'm avoiding it because there are better mana accelerators out there, and as a top deck, I'd probably always rather draw most other non-land cards in my deck (except for Grim Monolith, I guess).Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawon
I would much prefer to have coercive portal, because the extra card it gives you will either be the mana you needed (land/metalworker/monolith) or something you can play with the 4+ mana you already have, and the portal only gets better and better than archive the more turns it stays in play. I mean, archive is probably better than thran dynamo...although that is not saying much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawon
@goblin welder lists
I think daretti, scrap savant is the reason to be playing red, and not welder (although if you are playing one, you should be playing both). Too often welder either eats removal immediately or just sits there doing nothing because you don't have a meaningful activation to do, two problems daretti just doesn't have. Additionally, daretti makes welder better, and not the other way around. This should be reflected in the relative numbers you run, i.e. you should have more darettis than welders
If you do decide to play red, I recommend abusing your new powers to their full extent. This means playing myr battlesphere, which is borderline playable in colorless lists, but becomes alot better with welder/daretti. Also thousand-year elixir is the nuts in red lists, either blanking opposing spot removal on your important cards, or getting double welder/metalworker/kuldotha activations (kuldotha -> myr battlesphere -> untap kuldotha -> sac tokens), or just giving haste to your recently played (or welded in) welder/metalworker/kuldothas. Even giving stuffa (wurmcoil engine) vigilance isn't too shabby. And I always feel obligated to mention godo, bandit warlord, because it totally might be good even though it isn't.
Blood moon is solid against BUG too I hear.
Of course if you play red you must make concessions, such as recognizing you will never reliably have 8 mana without playing terrible cards like thran dynamo and voltaic key, which means Ugin is off the table. You can make exceptions for expensive artifacts (emperion, battlesphere, titan, wurmcoil, blightsteal...etc) since you can cheat them into play with daretti/welder/metalworker/kuldotha.
Just some random thought i had today concerning red splashed MUD. Instead of running Sol lands -> run cloudpost manabase with mountain/great furnace. Just like Turbo Eldrazi does. The problem here is that Turbo plays cards that searches lands, which this couldnt. But that could turn Daretti into a different animal, being able to land Ugin and other big dudes. Thoughts?