Either that or players haven't properly tested it. I don't think it is actually that amazing. It's fine. Nothing earth shattering
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Either that or players haven't properly tested it. I don't think it is actually that amazing. It's fine. Nothing earth shattering
Yes, I got 10th. Hurrah! Thank you all. I played 12-2-1 without any byes, and missed top 8 on tie breakers.
5-0-1 on day 2. I could have chosen a more aggressive line versus Death and Taxes and spared myself of the draw. I think that the deck is good. As for the side board Venser, I played in one trial on site and lost 0-2 to Jund Depths the first round. Some people at the tournament said that they expected a lot of it at the GP, and I didn't really think that I could win that match up. I have been shifting between Ætherling and Notion Thief in the last side board slot. Neither of them are essential, so that seemed like the natural cut for Venser. As for my worst match ups, I faced Elves on day 1, winning 2-0. I faced them again on day two, winning 2-1. I eventually also faced the dreaded Jund Depths later on day 2, winning 2-0. I used Pod to get Acidic Slime forcing him to combo in my main phase so that I could Sower of Temptation the token, winning.
I will try to compose a list of all of the match-ups shortly. I have been borderline sick all weekend, so a tournament report may take a few days.
Awesome job!Quote:
Originally Posted by Svknoe
Sick. Venser actually does seem like a fairly reasonable answer to Lage. Never thought of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Svknoe
Svknoe congrats on the finish!
Only question is why no Exarchs? (and I personally would run Deadeye somewhere maybe over Venser)
I updated my BUG Control list based on some testing and theorycrafting, mainly adding a second Deed to the main (possibly may even go up to 3) and a Scavenging Ooze. These replaced Glen-Elendra and Top respectively.
Damia continues to be sweet, although borderline on cutting her for Deadeye or Aetherling
Exarch might be playable. I have not tried it. I seems very bad to draw it without a pod, though. I am reluctant to play too many creatures that are outright bad by themselves.
First of all @SVKnoe congratulations on the great finish. I played several versions of Nic Fit and never really liked the POD versions. But looking at your list I am getting very excited about it and will start testing with it again. How usefull was the extra Glen Elendra in the sideboard and how effective where the pilferers.
Anything you would change after such a great result?
Compared to other nic fit decks is it hard to play?
I am looking forward to you report so get well soon ;-)
The extra Glen Elendra is Very useful. Glen Elendra is good against combo and is one of out primary trumps against miracles. If you can stop the next two entreats or terminus, you are in great shape. Watch out for swords, counter, persist trigger, terminus in response. I don't know if combo is capable of dealing with a supported, active archmage. I think that the Pilferers are needed for the storm and show and tell match ups. I am looking to find a way to fit in the fourth Deathrite. It seems like a mistake to not play 4. GSZ and the fourth Explorer are the only cards of similar function that it is possible to cut. I want Explorer early, but I generally don't like drawing 2. Wood Elves is the worst card in the deck. It isn't very bad, but some good three drop could certainly replace it. It's functionality is sometimes needed, but it is still a little bit on the weak side.
Pod opens up a tremendous amount of lines of play. Almost all board states are solvable. The board often looks very bad, but it can be fixed with the correct line. Because you have so many options I think it is more difficult to play than the other Nic Fit decks. The other decks that I have played in tournaments is some Rector and mostly Scapeshift. I have tested some Punishing Fit as well.
My match ups were:
Day 1: BUG Delver, Reanimator, Miracles (loss), Jund, Elves, Death and Taxes, BUG Delver, TNN Bant (loss) and one deck I can't recall
Day 2: Death and Taxes (draw), Elves, UWR Delver, Jund Depths, Sneak and Show, Merfolk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Svknoe
Very nice, I see you beat a wide swath of decks over the weekend. How important was golgari charm for beating elves/DnT?
We've been testing out Fleshbag Marauder as a 3 drop over here and it's been decent. It's another way to kill true name nemesis and another sacrifice outlet for veteran explorer, which is pretty cool. I've also briefly tried out 4 deathrites and 3 veteran explorers because of what you said (drawing 2 is not great). It worked alright, though I only tried it for a four round tournament.
I'd love to see your Sideboard Strategy. Is there one coming by chance?Quote:
Originally Posted by Svknoe
I sided it in against those decks. I think that I got an easy 2 for 1 with with it once. Death and Taxes seems very favorable regardless. I did not draw it against Elves, and somehow won regardless. I can't imagine it not being good. Deathrite and Nettle are a little annoying. I think that it is also fine versus TNN decks. Those are generally favourable too, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by GtF
I have not tried Fleshbag Marauder. It seems interesting. I have one main concern. If it is your only creature while you have a Pod, you are not getting anywhere. I want all of my creatures to both be good with Pod and be fine without it. It is a fairly common scenario that I have a Pod, but no creatures. If I draw a creature, I will most likely win. Fleshbag Marauder is quite horrible to draw then. It may still be the best card for the slot. I'll try it out.
I have no written notes for sideboarding. So far I have figured it out match by match. I should probably write something. If I do, I will share it.
In general I sideboard out Finks and all of the bad 4+ drops versus combo. All of the combo hate comes in, with the exception of Pilferers versus reanimator. If they are not combo, I generally side in Deed and Jitte. Slime and Glen Elendra are very match up dependent, and are often sided out for one of those cards. I sometimes shave 1 Explorer, Strix or Cabal Therapy to make space. Versus miracles I side out as many explorers and therapies as I can. 7 in total is usual.
FWIW Fleshbag was extremely hit or miss when I played it. Probably not worth it unfortunately unless your meta is a bunch of Hexproof type men. Its fine vs Tempo. Dead vs Control, and kinda meh vs other normal midrange decks due to a lot of them running mana dorksQuote:
Originally Posted by Svknoe
I also played at GP Paris – first of all, Congrats to Svknoe! Very nice run against a various field.
After my Success with Punishing Fit i trained with Scapeshift (thanks “Ralf “ for a lot of input!) as my GP choice (faster rounds, top deck combo wins, Slaughter Games against Miracle – they did well as I expected). Friday at the hotel room I got crushed 1:11 against a very good ANT player and decided (after a sleepless night..) to go “Back to Basic” and enter the GP with Punishing Fit. I have more experience with this, some real sideboard cards/boarding options and an overall better Combo Matchup (in theory – see above).
Short summary – GP Day 1
R1: Bye
R2: Bye
R3: 2:0 UWR Delver (Removal over Removal)
R4: 2:0 bUrg Tempo (crushed a german “Pro” with his secret "Bitterblossom Tech")
R5: 0:2 Omnitell (lost horrible against his god hands, mulligans never got me enough action here, also lost my spirit here...see above)
R6: 1:2 Dredge (G1 more than enough rounds, but never found deed or zenith/deathrite/ooze; G2 I got some hate; G3 Mull to 5 without good cards)
R7: 0:2 Elves (against Lukas Maurer – 2nd at GP Ghent - lost die roll and G 1 because I can’t activate deed, G2 he glimpsed away with an empty board the turn before I have Golgari Charm+Punishing online)
....dead
R8: 1:1 BUG Pod (really enjoyed this kind of mirror, Pithing Needle was very good here, at G3 I wasn’t focused enough with Punishing Fire to catch the Victory before Timeout)
R9: 2:0 UW Blade (Removal over Removal)
Total: 5-3-1
So reached the 419th place, lost all combo matchups really bad, multiple mulligan and without enough hate (never found a slaughter games, only get it against BUG Fit as i boarded a one off...)
Played the same list at Sunday sideevent:
R1: 0:2 vs Team America (G1 no removal vs Tombstalker+Delver and Explorer+Witness can’t race this…G2 missed the Rakdos Charm Play before he, Wasteland his own Dual to get his Tombstalker, no Lilianas or Livegain Creatures here…)
R2: 1:1 vs UWR Delver (can’t kill him fast enough G3, but Fleshbag was good enough here)
R3: 2:1 vs UB Tezz (10 Planeswalker vs me, hard grind but got him thanks too Deed, Decay and Fire)
R4: 0:2 vs ANT (G1 no interaction, G2 hard grind, he won with 1 life thanks to burning wish)
R5: 2:0 vs Team America (Removal over Removal)
R6: 2:1 vs Team America (a little bit unconcentrated G1, but got him G2+3 as expected)
My List:
//Lands
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Phyrexian Tower
//Creatures
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Primeval Titan
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Fleshbag Marauder
//Rest
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Thoughtseize
//Sideboard
3 Slaughter Games
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Thoughtseize
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Rakdos Charm
Really like the lines of play with Punishing Fit.
Fleshbag Marauder was good enough against the meta (see a lot of tempo and sneak show).
Is there any reason for you to play a fleshbag marauder instead of the 4th liliana?
Enviado de meu Nexus 4 usando Tapatalk
As i said:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nithkar
-useable vs Show & Tell (Sneak Show + Reanimate)
-Spell Pierce proof (UWR often use a playset)
-can' t be hit from needle/revoker
-provides a 3/1 body, which can race delver, tnn, nimble, if you can sac another creature (explorer, witness, huntmaster token)
-good sac outlet for explorer (see above)
Liliana works on her own, but 3 are enough, because you didn't want to discard a spells (most of the time only punishing fire, which i reduced to 3 instead of 4). Liliana also needs double black. I never liked the playset Liliana and together with sensei you will see copies in most games.
It isn't a “liliana slot“, it works as an additional removal and is a flex slot for specific meta (lot of tempo and Sneak Show). As you can see, i cutted 1 pulse or 1 deed, which can also be played.
Too bad you didn't make day 2. I have also had a tough time beating combo with Punishing Fit.
In round three, I was playing against Miracles on your right. Your match somehow finished a while before mine, though. :P
How does the deck fair against Miracles? How would you board against it? I'm not sure Veteran Explorers are good vs Miracles :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Svknoe
Miracles is hard. If you play well, I think that they are ever so slightly favoured. For boarding, veteran explorer is the worst card. They are good at playing off the top, and explorers are out, so cabal therapy is bad as well. My goal is to sideboard out as many as possible of those cards, and side in anything in the sideboard that is playable. Glen Elendra Archmage and Pod are our best cards. What I did last time was:Quote:
Originally Posted by blindspotxxx
-4 Veteran Explorer
-3 Cabal Therapy
+2 Envelop
+1 Glen Elendra Archmage
+1 Pernicious Deed
+1 Golgari Charm
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Venser, Shaper Savant
@Svknoe: Thanks - sadly we don't crushed the field together at day two.
I will test your list, because it seems that blue has some interesting creatures to abuse with Pod.
Your plan against Miracles sounds solid, access to double Archmage seems very good.
Questions about your Sideboard:
How good is the random Jitte (no Stoneforge, no aggressive Creatures, online at turn 3 ? if you find it) – I know (as an elves player) that Jitte can be good, IF you disrupt enough to get it online. But Nic Fit seems not disruptive enough compared to Tempo decks.
Riptide Pilferer – I know it was discussed before and also adds a “Force Pitch” but if it comes online turn 2, you can only profit turn 3 (which seems kind of meh against Combo). No one fears a 1/1 “Beater”. Sure discard every turn isn’t so bad, but you need more disruption until the little Merfolk let you profit.
Is Vendilion Clique not a better Options? Also online turn 3, let you see the hand (nice because BUG Pod also use Counters) and with 3/1 a much better Beater/Clock. At worst you can Pod into Archmage/Venser.
Why Envelope over Swan Song? Against Elves (NO, Zenith, Glimpse) or Miracle (Terminus, Entreat) we also want Pernicious Deed which also kill the 2/2 Token. Swan Song can also counter Ad Nauseum, Sneak Attack or Miracle Stuff like Moat/Humillity.
I thought about to cut -3 Riptide and -1 Jitte (Envelope can be Swan Song or Flusterstorm etc. - but it isn’t the worst Spell) and add +1 Thoughtseize, +1 Vendillion Clique, which leaves to open Slots for additional Spells (more blue Stuff/Counters/+1 Fleshbag Marauder etc.).
Sample:
+1 Clique
+1 TS (2 total)
+1 Fleshbag/Clique (but I like Fleshbag as additional Tempo/Show&Tell/Creature hate – it is the Jitte Slot)
+3 Swan Song/Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce (if Envelope is also cutted)
Benefit is more earlier Disruption to get enough turns to develop the board and get real Stuff like Pod/Archmage/Venser/Clique online.
I had been running Uktabi Orangutan in the Wood Elves slot and have never regretted the switch. I've recently been testing out Clique in that slot and have liked it as well, but 1UU has been a little rough on the mana base and can really screw up some VE choices if its in your hand. Where my head's at now is that 1 of the Riptide Pilferers can become a Clique.
I've considered Swan Song but still am running 2 Envelop, but if anything I would switch them to Negate. Swan Song isn't great in a deck like this because we cannot always ignore the token, so we're forced to expend resources to address it. All the while, the bad guy is still trying to combo-off again. Maybe I'm overreacting, but the typical play here is to get distracted and find a Strix while they filter with Ponders and Brainstorms, and then BOOM you're staring at Emrakul.Quote:
Originally Posted by MD.Ghost
Negate's extra cost hasn't been as much of an issue other than not being available on turn1, and addresses the few weaknesses of Envelop - that it misses Sneak Attack, Ad Nauseum and Brainstorms.
Hi, first post here, and I'm fairly new to Legacy in general, I was interested in building the BUG Pod list since I like Pod and I already have most of the manabase from Modern. I was looking through possible cards and had a question about a couple of them. It seems to me like the core that makes this deck competitive is the whole Veteran Explorer/Cabal Therapy interaction (I've noticed the same thing with Young Pyromancer/Cabal Therapy making it's decks powerful). So I was looking for more ways to improve that interaction. I haven't really seen a whole lot when it comes to 1 cost guys worth sacrificing but I did come across the card Mask of the Mimic, it seems rather powerful in a deck that wants to generate a bunch of ETB/LTB triggers, and it functions as a counter of sorts against removal though it discourages 1 of's. Is this a reasonable card to try, or is it just asking to be blown out by FoW?
The problem with mask is that it wants you to be running decks with multiples of the same creature, and in this deck, a lot of the time the only creature that you run in multiples (especially in Pod lists) is Veteran Explorer and Deathrite Shaman. I do like the card though and would like to figure out a way to abuse it somehow elsewhere..
An update of the status of my last posted decklist for Rock Nic Fit:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...044#post788044
--- Changes to the maindeck:
-1 Abrupt Decay, +1 Sensei's Divining Top
-1 Abrupt Decay, getting to 60 cards (not sure about this yet)
-1 Kichen Finks, +1 Courser of Kruphix (trying it out next time)
--- Changes to the sideboard:
-2 Carpet of Flowers
-1 Moat
-1 Ethersworn Canonist
-1 Chains of Mephistopheles
-1 Choke
+1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
+1 Engineered Plague
+2 Armageddon
+1 Thoughtseize/Inquisition
+1 Toxic Deluge
--- Comments on changes:
Running plenty of discard and sweepers late game topdecking becomes more imporant, that's why I upped to 4 SDT.
Abrupt Decay doesn't seem necessary, I mostly have it because I fear Chalice of the Void from MUD and to help against Counterbalance.
The Geddons are there to provide a better machtup (theorycrafting) against Cloudpost and Lands, while also very relevant vs any slow deck (Miracles) or any combodeck (with the addition of plenty of discard and Lilianas). The idea is to start out with some of the 8 discard, follow up with one of the 3 lilianas OR one of the cheapish creatures (finks, geist, courser, mystic or ooze) and then boom (!) Geddon. The Geddons are acting like Nether Void 4 and 5 I guess (counting Enlightened) but when I playtested a few games vs Cloudpost the Nether Void didn't help much. And since the geddon is very relevant vs a lot of other problematic decks (see above) I added two so far.
Canonist was mostly there for Storm and to some extent Elves (I just keep expecting Natural Order if I put Canonist into play) so I changed it into the eighth discard which is relevant in more matchups.
Night of Souls' betrayal is very relevant vs TNN, Snapcaster, Clique, Elspeth, Lingering Souls, Elves, Goblins, Pyromancer, Death and Taxes etc, and it kind of combos with the Humility which also has good synergy with the Batterskulls and the Ooze, all of which are tutorable (2 enlightened, 4 GSZ). The synergy is not why I chose the cards, I chose them because they are strong individually, and the synergy comes like an added bonus. There is some antisynergy with the persist creatures though. Still figuring it out.
So far I didn't need Sigarda much so she could probably be a Strangleroot Geist, Kitchen Finks or Courser of Kruphix. But I expect she'll prove her worth again before long.
Toxic Deluge helped me win two games vs Elves and is always relevant, so I added one to the SB.
Besides this I'm not sure how I would deal with opposing Dark Depths. Humility is my best idea so far.
--- Tournament results (local game store):
This idea has been working out well so far. I've run 3-1 in two local legacy tournaments with the following matchups. I'll write a few comments about the dubious card choices (i.e. Acidic Slime and Strangleroot Geist). Forgive any incorrectness and briefness in the reporting (I didn't take notes)!
Goblins twice (both with black splash): 1-1
Seems like a very favourable matchup, in one of the lost games I had 5-6 rounds with top and shuffling to find one of about 10+ outs and failed. Also not finding Mystic or Batterskull in these games.
From the won games one was in the last round of time with a GSZ for Strangleroot.
RUG Delver: 0-1 (0-2)
In both lost games I had 3 explorers/GSZ's in the graveyard that had been countered or stifled, 2 lands in play and several 3 mana answers in my hand. I probably lost one of the games because I therapied for FoW, not having seen Stifle for a long time. Also I didn't play around Daze much because I had so many relevant answers but he kept drawing really well. In one game I rid his hand of 3 Delvers with therapy, he has a Stifle and Daze stopping my Explorers/GSZ's and he topdecks a goyf and consecutive counterspells for anything I play. I guess that what happens when you remove Carpet from the sideboard.
Omniscience: 1-0 (2-1)
In one of the games I put pressure on him and he had to Show in an Omniscience without Cunning Wish backup, luckily I had the Slime in my hand.
Miracles (no Jace? only saw Elspeth): 1-0 (2-0)
Game one was a bit drawn out with a GSZ for Slime destroying Counterbalance and later in the game there was an opposing Elspeth ultimatum which probably Batterskull won through with me at 30-40 life points in the end.
Game two was won a bit luckily by t1 SDT (FoWed), t3 Liliana (countered), t4 Liliana and EOT Enlightened Tutor, t5 Nether Void.
MUD: 1-0 (2-1?)
He mulligans a lot. GSZ for Slime to destroy Bottled Cloister won me game 1. And another game was won by Cabal Therapy for Wurmcoil (over double Forgemasters), next turn Liliana killing Forgemaster no 1 and next turn GSZ for Slime to kill Ancient Tomb to prevent opponent from untapping Grim Monolith and playing the second Forgemaster (forgot some details in the sequence). - Oh yeah, he beat me down game two with an early Loadstone Golem, I never got to four lands to play a Finks, Deluge or other cards.
Elves: 1-0 (2-0/1?)
I don't draw any of my extra discard but win both games by turn three Toxic Deluge, once removing a Progenitus. And being able to follow up with Batterskull + Humility in one of those games. Since then I've added 1 Engineered Plague and 1 Toxic Deluge to the sideboard (replacing Massacre) which should help some.
Dredge (can't distinguish versions but he ran lands): 1-0 (2-1)
Lose game one trying to get enough green mana to stay alive with Ooze waiting to get my hands on a board wipe. Win a game post board with t1 enlightened tutor, t2 rest in peace, t3 GSZ for Ooze.
so i top foured a bazaar of moxen quifier at tales of advanture running the dead eye navigator list i created and for this tourny i decided to try the mimioplasm as my open 5 slot and he was an amazing card so utility and so very hard to deal with he quickly became a permenet fixture in my deck for going above and beyond good
r1 dredge 2-1
r2 stoneblade 2-0
r3 dredge 1-2
r4 ruw devlver 2-0
r5 omni tell 2-1
r6 stoneblade 2-1
r7 bug 2-1
r8 id
top 8
sneak attack 2-0
reanimater 0-2 yay god hand lol
Tons who is your deck list?
22 LANDS
3 Island
3 Forest
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Tropical Island
3 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Underground Sea
1 Phyrexian Tower
18 CREATURES
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Coiling Oracle
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Fierce Empath
1 Baleful Strix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Mystic Snake
1 Deadeye Navigator
1 Frost Titan
1 Reaper of the Wilds
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 memioplasm
1 Thragtusk
13 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Living Wish
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Diabolic Intent
8 OTHER SPELLS
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Recurring Nightmare
SIDEBOARD
1 Eternal Witness
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Deadeye Navigator
1 High Market
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Abrupt Decay
2 fluster storm
1 toxic deluge
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Volrath's Stronghold
I wish I could watch this deck in action… i struggle to see it being effective but clearly you are having good resultsQuote:
Originally Posted by tons of fun
The Jitte is okay. I side it in against most creature decks. If it gets online, it is very good. I can be a bit clunky, though. It won me a game against Elves. It is true that other disruption is needed first. I have not played a lot of tempo decks, but this deck seems quite disruptive post board. Elves is still a bad match up. In the GP I hit double glimpse blindly on Cabal Therapy versus both my opponents.Quote:
Originally Posted by MD.Ghost
I have been pleased with Riptide Pilferer. On its own, it hardly does anything. You have to be able to slow them down enough with counters and discard that Pilferer can connect. Our way of beating combo is different from how the tempo decks beat combo. Tempo decks can slow down the combo deck with soft counters while killing them. We are not able to kill them reasonably quickly, so that plan doesn't work as well for us. More counters and discard in Pilferers stead will certainly help us to not die immediately. But from my experience the combo decks will generally be able to eventually overcome this if we have not got a credible threat, such as a Delver. In stead, I try to lock them out of the game. When they can't reasonably win, our various 1/1s and deathrite shaman will kill them. The purpose of our disruption is to buy time for us to play our lock pieces. If Glen Elendra Archmage or Riptide Pilferer sticks, it becomes incredibly difficult for our opponent to win the game. I am not sure that this is definitely the correct way to beat combo, but if I cut Pilferer I fear that it will become difficult to win without Glen Elendra in play. Pitching to Force is also good, of course. We have a bit too few blue cards. Vendilion Clique is interesting.
If you cut Pilferer, Swan Song is an option. If not, it is not. The bird blocks Pilferer. That is the most important difference. Amongst other things, I have noticed that Envelop counters almost everything that I care about. It is good against storm, miracles, elves and show and tell. The only important card that Envelop does not counter is Sneak Attack, which is also their best card against us in the match up. That is my main concern with Envelop. Other than that, I think that the bird is a very real draw back for us. If I have a board of Wood Elves and Witness, Miracles has to Terminus that away. If they get a bird, the counterspell has accomplished nothing. When we board in a lot of disruption for their combo, elves are capable of beating us down. We are hard pressed to survive their onslaught as well a the bird. I think that soft counters are bad in this deck, because we run Veteran Explorer. The combo dekcs often have basic lands. Giving them 2 lands puts especially Spell Pierce to shame.
Fleshbag seems like it could be good. I am tempted to main deck it. I could take Wood Elves' spot in the main deck.
Edit: GtF, what does your current sideboard look like?
look i seems weird yes but this i have top 16 min the last 4 events i played with itQuote:
Originally Posted by Razorwynd
Yeah, I agree with everything you're saying about pilferer/envelop. It is really annoying that it doesn't counter Sneak Attack but other than that I think it's about as good as Swan Song. Pretty much every combo deck relies on key sorceries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Svknoe
The other anti-combo sideboard plan I've considered is playing 4 swan song and 4 tarmogoyf, and just beating them down as fast as possible. However I think I like this plan better because it incorporates more blue cards to make Force of Will better.
I also think the Jitte is good but maybe not necessary. I have considered cutting it to make room for other cards to fight things that are particularly problematic for us. Specifically: Surgical Extraction to fight Punishing Fires (also nice vs. dredge/reanimator as a bonus) and Pithing Needle to fight dark depths (also nice vs. sensei's divining top and Jace the mind sculptor, but has anti-synergy with Pernicious Deed).
Here's the maindeck/SB I think I'd run right now:
2 bayou
2 tropical island
1 u. sea
4 v. cat
4. misty rainforest
2 polluted delta
2 forest
2 island
2 swamp
3 birthing pod
1 recurring nightmare
4 brainstorm
2 pernicious deed
1 abrupt decay
4 cabal therapy
1 Green sun's zenith
4 veteran explorer
4 deathrite shaman
4 baleful strix
1 kitchen finks
1 scavenging ooze
1 phantasmal image
1 shriekmaw
1 fleshbag marauder
1 eternal witness
1 thragtusk
1 murderous redcap
1 glen elendra archmage
1 acidic slime
1 grave titan
1 Sower of Temptation
SB:
1 Aetherling
4 Force of Will
2 Envelop
3 Riptide Pilferer
1 Glen elendra archmage
1 umezawa's jitte
1 Venser, shaper savant
1 Pernicious Deed
1 ????
(Cards I'm considering include: Abrupt Decay, Pithing Needle, Surgical Extraction, Thoughtseize, Vendilion Clique, Envelop.)
I played Golgari Charm for a bit and didn't like it because the -1/-1 kills a decent amount of our own creatures, and the other modes didn't seem to relevant and/or could be accomplished with other cards. But I could be convinced otherwise I suppose.
The maindeck is 61 cards. I have strongly considered the idea of cutting a veteran explorer, since they aren't very good to draw after the first. I will probably test that out soon.
When you were playing vs. elves, did you board in the FOWs? I think I would just board the envelops and rely on the rest of the discard and removal to disrupt them enough to win.
Last Weekend I played a 6 round tournament (37 players) with Punishing Fit to gain more skill/experience with this build.
Matchups:
R1 vs Bant Lands 2:0 (similar to GP lands deck, with Living Wish, Intuition and Force / he struggle with his draws and I get Deathrite and Ooze G2 working – Thanks to Huntmaster Lifegain and Liliana I dodge one Attack from the bad ass token)
R2 vs Team America 1:2 (can’t get a good score against this deck… / G1 I gain enough removal and answer everything he played, his last move was a Tombstalker which meets my Fleshbag Marauder / G2 can’t get enough stuff, he started with DS, Hymn, Liliana and crushed me / G3 I draw lands over lands and he disrupted me with hymn and smashes creature after creature – my only removal was a one use only Liliana…)
R3 vs UW Miracles 1:2 (My first Matchup with Punishing Fit against Miracles: G1 I didn’t trigger Explorer and get him down fast enough, G2 double entreat without deed, G3 I got Slaughter Games Turn 3 naming Entreat, followed with Slaughter Games Turn 4 naming Jace – sadly he has one Clique which beats me down under a Counterbalance Lock, my only removal in hand was double Red Blasts…never see Liliana, Decay, Punishing, Deed…what a game)
R4 vs Reanimator 1:2 (G1 he got Grisel which “draw7counters” my Liliana / G2 Deathrite faced his Needle, but some Discard + Surgical allowed me to get Ooze online / G3 After Mulligan I started with Thoughtseize, he responded with Entombs Iona + Daze my Discard…,Turn 2 I played Deathrite and he played Exhume – Iona naming Black – GG)
R5 vs BG Nic Fit 2:0 (G1 goes very long as expected, I played against a girl which hasn’t enough experience and forgot to abuse Recurring Nightmare, I get Deed only to clear the board and she never recovers / G2 she concede because we have only some minutes till timeout)
R6 vs UWr Miracle 2:0 (Again Miracle…this time against Helm+RIP, G1 a well-timed Deed won me the game / G2 – see above – Turn 3 Slaughter Games naming Jace because he hasn’t Sensei out, Turn 4 Slaughter Games naming Entreat, this time I have Deed and Decay and he can’t win it)
3:3 – not got enough. I won some bad matchups and lost some good, but a lot of 1:2 stuff here so it was a bit unlucky. I was glad to gain some training against Miracle. After GP we will see this deck more often.
As I thought, Slaughter Games is a very good option against Miracle and I would definitely play two at Maindeck if I ever chose Scapeshift again.
---------------
BUG Pod
@Svknoe and civet five - Thanks for your reply.
I cut and add some spells to test different BUG Pod cards - you still have some flexible solutions in this deck for personal playstyle. Last time i cutted 1 Wood Elves for 1 Vendilion Clique, 1 Reccuring Nightmare for 1 Garruk Relentless (really like his options, he is removal, permanent pressure against control, able to start a pod chain and a tutor in a 1off creature deck).
Sideboard - right Swan Song isn't good enough here. Current Countersuite has: 1 Flusterstorm, 3 Force of Will, 2 Negate and additional 2nd Glen Elendra Archmage (1 main), 2 Thoughtseize and 1 Venser. Negate may be to slow (but faster than any Riptide Boy) but with additional Discard like Thoughtseize you may gain enough time.
@GtF
I like Pithing Needle and woud never play my Punishing Build without it (Problems with Walkers, Sneak Attack, Dark Depths Combo etc.?). In Scapeshift or BUG Pod you can also naming Sensei if you play against Miracle which is really good. Sure it isn't nice with Deed, but you don't always see both and sometimes Deed goes out Game 2 and 3.
I agree about the Tarmogoyf plan. I also think that Tarmogoyf doesn't synergise to well with the rest of the plan. If Tarmogoyf kills them, we win. If it doesn't kill them, we lose. If Pilferer is not enough to stop them, it will still slow them down so that we can get more time to resolve a Glen Elendra Archmage.
Punishing Fire and Dark Depths can be a bit tough. Acidic Slime can be great for fighting both of them. 1 of each of Surgical and Pithing Needle seems okay. The anti-synergy with Deed should not be an issue versus Dark Depths, but could be a hassle versus miracles. I think that Ætherling is also cuttable. He is almost unbeatable versus Shardless BUG, and okay against Miracles. Sometimes they Entreat you out, regardless of Ætherling. Do you board him in in any other match ups? As for Thoughtseize, I like having the 5th discard spell versus combo. It's also nice to help Therapy hit later. While I like Abrupt Decay a lot, does it have enough of an impact as a sideboard card? Where would you board it in? I seems at it's strongest versus Delver decks, which are all borderline easy in the first place.
I board Golgari Charm in versus TNN decks, Elves, Miracles (Sometimes kills counterbalance, sometimes stops supreme verdict. We have a lot to board out.), Omnitell and Goblins (only on the play, to kill goblin lackey). I don't think that FOW is that good against Elves, and I leave it in the board. Our blue count is a bit low as well, without Pilferer. Envelop is very good. I also board in Jitte, Golgari charm, Glen Elendra, Thoughtseize and Deed.
How is the mana base working out? I am still playing:
2 bayou
3 tropical island
1 u. sea
4 v. cat
4. misty rainforest
1 polluted delta
3 forest
1 island
2 swamp
I somewhat frequently end up fetching all of the 6 duals. Does having only 5 ever pose a problem? Does the second Island get in the way? I sometimes want it for Sower of Temptation, but otherwise not.
I don't think that 61 cards is any good. The cards that are possible to cut are:
Veteran Explorer
Deathrite Shaman
Green Sun's Zenith
Recurring Nightmare
Abrupt Decay
Baleful Strix
If we cut anything else, our ability to function as a Pod deck is too greatly diminished. I do like all of those cards, and would prefer to keep all of them. I think that the least painful cut is 1 Veteran Explorer, followed by GSZ.
@MD.Ghost
Vendilion Clique seems good. I have two concerns. Its ETB ability is a little weak for the Pod chain and its 1UU cost seems a little hard on the mana base. Are these things problematic for you? I have not tried Garruk Relentless in Pod yet. I liked him in Punishing Fit. Recurring Nightmare singlehandedly wins the game, though. As a pod deck we often put strong creatures in the graveyard for it to abuse.
Is the sideboard enough to beat combo? How do you win the post board games that you win against storm and show and tell? I am worried that disruption is not enough, and that we need something to kill them. It seems that winning without Glen Elendra is difficult. If you include some cheap offensive creature (for example Pilferer or Tarmogoyf), I think that Negate will be too expensive. It is often important to hold up a counter while playing the threat early. The fourth Force also has to be correct.
Aetherling might be cuttable. It's good against grindy decks like shardless and jund but those are already good matchups. The only matchup where it seems like it could really swing a game is vs. miracles. However, I haven't tested it with your SB plan so maybe it isn't needed there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Svknoe
Abrupt decay is a nice one to have against delver decks and also vs stuff like elves and DnT to slow them down a bit. I suppose golgari charm is just better for that purpose though. I would also board it in against anything with counterbalance, and there's also fringe stuff like metalworker, food chain, or painter's servants that are nice to have additional answers to.
So far the manabase has been ok. I did debate for a while between the 3rd forest vs. 2nd island, I went with the island because of the addition of Sower of Temptation and sometimes needing more blue mana for Glen Elendra + holding up a blue postboard vs combo. I went with the 10th fetchland just so the Deathrites would have enough lands in the graveyard to activate for mana in the early game, since I moved up to 4 Deathrites. I haven't needed the 6th dual so far, but also haven't played with this configuration that much either.
----- Tournament Report ------
This was supposed to be a 30-40 person tournament, but because of weather conditions it was only 15 people, which means 4 rounds and a top 8. This is the deck I played:
---Deck list---
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Strangleroot Geist
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
2 Grave Titan
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Toxic Deluge
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Garruk Relentless
4 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Phyrexian Tower
---Sideboard---
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Choke
1 Deathrite Shaman
3 Duress
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
---Games---
Round 1
Opponent: UWR Delver
Result: 2-0
Description: in game 1 my opponent kept playable hand that had mostly the top end of his deck (no delvers or bolts). He got batterskull off stoneforge on turn 3 and tried to support it to victory. After taking a few hits, I stabilized and played a grave titan. Game 2 I was siboarded all wrong because I thought he was playing something like deathblade, so I was pretty surprised when he opened with 2 delvers and starting beating me fast. He forced a deed but the second resolved and blew his board, ending the game a few turns later.
Round 2
Opponent: GBW depths
Result: 0-2
Description: the opponent was playing a dark depths combo/aggro brew, it was playing thoughtseize, living wish, hexmage, dark depths, thespian stage, wasteland, reliquary, teeg, thalia, scavenging ooze, mox diamond, etc. In short, this was a very bad matchup. I felt comfortable with my combo matchup because I had a ton of discard postboard, but it was not especially useful against this type of combo which had so many redundant copies of all its pieces and blockers to buy time. For the most part, games would play out as me bombarding him with discard and then hope he didn’t top deck out of it while I tried to beat him down. He did, twice.
Round 3
Opponent: Merfolk
Result: 2-1
Description: this felt like a decently easy matchup, where most of the games revolved around resolving sweepers. The two victories played out the same:
early game skirmish -> mass removal resolves -> outboard him -> win.
The only loss was from keeping a risky 6-card 1 lander that didn’t pan out.
Round 4
Opponent: Pox
Result: 2-0
Description: to be fair, we actually drew into the top 8. However, we played some matches anyways, and this is an extremely good matchup for nic fit. They destroy our lands, we make lands, they try to grind us, and we grind faster and harder. When you open with a veteran explorer and they have stuff like smallpox and sinkhole in their hand, it’s just a terrible spot for them to be.
Top 8 consisted of:
Miracles
Storm
Nic Fit (me)
Pox
Painter’s Stone
Shades (MB brew)
GBW depts (brew I played in round 2)
Stoneblade
For my first match of top 8, I got paired against GBW depths and lost 0-2 again. Unfortunately, I’m pretty sure this was my worst matchup in the top 8, but that’s the way it goes sometimes. Painter’s Stone won the tournament.
---Conclusion---
Overall, I had a good time and was pretty satisfied with the power of the deck. Every card in the deck pulled its weight at some point or another. The cards that felt the most powerful were mostly the obvious ones: veteran explorer, cabal therapy, pernicious deed and thrun. The cards that surprised me the most were kitchen finks and top; I knew they were good, but they both pulled a lot more weight than I expected. I would have loved to play against some of the other combo decks to test my postboard against hard combo. I was already interested in GBW Nic Fit before this event, and losing to Marite Lage 4 times only intensified this interest. That douche deserves to plow.
Based on my experience with the deck, I will be starting with this as the skeleton for all my future nic fit builds:
4 cabal therapy
4 veteran explorer
4 green sun’s zenith
4 pernicious deed
4 sensei’s divining top
1 scavenging ooze
1 kitchen finks
1 thrun, the last troll
I can understand playing some of the deeds in the sideboard, but in a TNN world I’d rather have a full playset for game 1. Similarly, 3 tops seems ok, but if you are running enough fetchlands you can always shuffle away extra copies so I would rather run 4. Tops make more starting hands keepable and drastically improve your grinding power by drawing into gas with excess mana.
@SpeedOfDark: Nice to read how it's working out for you. I don't know if you saw my post above on this page from two days back, it's based on your deck from a few weeks back and it has the white splash. Humility is what I expect to use vs Depths, with two Enlightened Tutor to get it. And possibly Armageddon could help, but I think I'll exchange one Geddon for a second Humility since it seems very important in a couple of big creature matchups (Cloudpost, Sneak and Show, MUD, even used it vs elves).
I'm also thinking of adding two Living Wish to the main (in place of Sigarda, Inquisition, Thoughtseize or Deluge) for Karakas (vs Depths, Sneak and Show) and Tabernacle (elves etc).
Regarding the ongoing discussion about 61 cards or not I would recommend reading this article from a friend of mine and see if it helps or confuses us even more :smile:
http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...ys-a-bad-idea/
So I've been thinking more about building Bug Pod... In Modern I've played Melira Pod since the Overextended days and really like the idea of porting it over. I think I've identified most of the cards I want, but as I said in my previous post (with an idea that didn't pan out) I'm pretty new to Legacy so I have a lot of trouble evaluating cards for the format.
So far my deck outline looks like this... normally I'm not a fan of just listing lands without specifics but because the rest of the list isn't defined it doesn't seem worth specifying lands yet.
21 land
6 basic
6 dual
9 fetch
Creatures 23
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Baleful Strix
2 Coiling Oracle
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Faceless Butcher
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Master Biomancer
1 Thragtusk
1 Frost Titan
Artifact 3
3 Birthing Pod
Spells 10
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
2 Pernicious Deed
If you add up that list you'll see it comes to 57 cards. So I have 3 slots free and I have no idea what to include.
Stuff I like includes:
2 CMC
Zameck Guildmage - Seems neat, but it's kind of expensive, there's also an issue with getting it because there's only 4 1 drops and no other tutor spells besides pod so I get the feeling it's too unreliable. It doesn't help that it dies to everything and generates no value for a turn in most cases.
Living Wish - The number of green creatures I'm running seems too low for GSZ, and I get the feeling Chord of Calling won't work here either since it requires too much board presence so this looks like the best tutor, but it requires giving up sideboard space.
Scavenging Ooze - Seems like a good card to be running, but again I think I'm going to have a lot of trouble in tutoring for it in such a list. Is it still worth including as a 1 of then?
4 CMC
Dimir House Guard - I don't really know how to evaluate transmute in legacy. I keep thinking that this is solid though. Against Griselbrand and Emrakul it turns into Faceless Butcher or Venser, against Delver it turns into Redcap, against a fair deck it turns into Pod, and then it can sit in the GY to protect Havengul Lich (or pod into lich even). The sacrifice could even be potentially relevant with a Redcap/Finks+Guard/Lich+Biomancer combo. The only bad part about it seems to be that it's 2 power for 4 mana. I think the main strike is that I already have a lot of 4's.
5 CMC - I only have 1 5 CMC listed so far, I'm pretty sure I want 1 maybe 2 more.
Havengul Lich - Seems really useful, this deck makes a lot of mana so it shouldn't have a problem paying the cost. I wonder if I'm playing enough activated abilities though, that whole aspect of the ability is more or less unused here. Being a podable Recurring Nightmare strikes me as very good though.
Acidic Slime - Good utility but isn't truly broken unless it's being flickered which I'm not doing here.
Shriekmaw - It's removal, but it can't kill a Griselbrand off of Show and Tell or a germ token so I'm wondering if it's good enough.
My thought has always been that you're running your 60 best cards. If that's the case, then your 61st card is below the power level of your 60th card so including it is bringing the average power level of your deck down. I read this entire thread as part of researching the deck and saw a lot of debate about the 4th brainstorm as card #61, and I didn't agree with it. If the 4th Brainstorm is worth including because it's a higher than average power level, then it must actually be some other card that shouldn't be included.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cire_dk
u dont have enough big drop u have a lot of stall with no bang, as well as if ur gonna runn the master bio mancer witch is what i started with deadeye with u gonna need things to make him more werth is and he needs to be more then a 1 of so u wanna look into deranged hermit AND HORNET QUEENQuote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Well that's true but in a deck with tutors even though the 61st card may be worse when you draw it the extra option may be worth it. If you are running 61 I think that you need to tutor for #61 more than you draw it, and it has to be better than average in those circumstances.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
My preference in such a situation is to add in the extra card I want to tutor for, and then cut multiples of something for more tutors. As an example in my list if I wanted to add another 4 drop as the 61st card, I would probably also cut two 4 drops I'm running multiples of and add a Dimir House Guard (or some other relevant tutor) to serve as an additional copy of every other 4 drop increasing my toolbox and effective copies of each card while not pushing the list over 60.Quote:
Originally Posted by pfiremc13
In some super tutor heavy lists I could see going over 60, but if you're just running 4 dig spells, and 3-5 tutors I don't think that qualifies as heavy enough to go over 60.
Like I said I come from Modern pod where we originally ran 7 drops like Sheoldred, then realized they didn't work so well and topped out at 6 drops. Today it tops out at 5 in the interest of streamlining things. I don't like running a 6 here but I'm high on 4's and don't see many good Show and Tell cards at 5, so 6 seems like a necessary evil (it also helps that the 6 is blue and Veteran Explorer is very reliable ramp which makes a hard cast easier). Like I said though, I'm pretty new to Legacy so it's entirely possible that my conclusions are way off. I don't like Deadeye Navigator because it seems to require too much blue mana. In the videos I've seen it's not that unlikely to get to 8 or 10 mana to cast it and hold up the exile, but requiring 4 blue in such a situation strikes me as being difficult on the mana. Deranged Hermit is ok at 9 power for 5 mana, but it's a pretty big blowout for the Hermit to die after paying the echo, it seems to me like that's too big of a weakness in a 5 drop.Quote:
Originally Posted by tons of fun
Maybe I'll go higher on Dimir House Guard. I like the idea of being able to transmute it into a Pod, pod a Finks into a Biomancer, pod the Finks into a redcap, pod the Redcap into a Lich, and then have an infinite damage combo. It works in Modern to combo out of 3 activations atleast... I don't know if it works in Legacy though.