[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

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Originally Posted by deviant

The mud and painter mu's are unfortunately very rough, as is burn, and this can prove to be an issue in smaller tournaments like GPT's.

I like how we have atm real game vs every significant tier deck, with probably elves being the biggest offender.

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How are you losing to Burn? You have Tarmogoyf, Hymn to Tourach, Daze, FoW, Spell Pierce (in the board), DRS, and Delver as a fast clock. You just need to play intelligently, e.g. don't overextend with lands/keep Wasteland up, don't drop a Goyf into Bolt range, use DRS's +2 life ability whenever possible, know which spells to counter and which to ignore, etc. This matchup used to be really poor, but with the advent of DRS/Delver I feel like this is actually a fairly positive matchup.

I would also say that among Tempo decks, TA struggles the least against MUD. This is partially because a Chalice on 1 isn't quite as backbreaking: we have plenty of two drops and we can also Decay it. I'm not saying this matchup is 'easy', but as long as you can stave off their broken early turns, you should be able to win due to us playing Ponder/Bstorm and them relying on top-decks.

Painter is pretty close to an auto-Loss, I'll give you that. A single Blood Moon effect resolving is essentially game over. The best you can hope for is some luck with being able to counter their bombs and keeping up mana for a sandbagged Decay for their Painter and/or Golgari Charm for Blood Moon. That said, I wouldn't really bother warping the deck too much to beat them, because to do so would weaken the list against everything else. They are a deck designed to beat on anything leaning too heavily on non-Basics. Plus, it's not like Painter is a large portion of the metagame.

Elves is rough, especially game 1. But with enough sideboard slots and a little luck, it's not really unwinnable. The key is to test this matchup and have a good sideboarding strategy. For one, I don't think leaving in Tarmogoyf and Hymn is very good, but I see people still doing that. You can always add some additional hate slots if you see this in your local tournament scene commonly -- Darkblast, Jitte, Engineered Plague, Perish, etc.

Hey everyone,

I usually play TES, but I enjoy switching up decks, to have a second deck to play. Those decks have been dredge, UWR delver, Sneak Show, and most recently Esper Stoneblade. Now I am building Team America.

I put together the stock list, minus one Abrupt Decay main. So with that spot open, plus the two flex spots, I am playing 2 Liliana and one Sylvan Library.

How do you feel about Toxic Deluge in the board? I am testing it as a one of, as it seems like it is very strong against a lot of decks.

Here is my board:

1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Creeping Tarpit (I see this one in almost every SB, so I put it here as well, just curious as to when I board it in)
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
3 Disfigure (I might cut one for either the 4th Abrupt Decay, or a Krosan Grip, or maybe just make the Maelstrom pulse a Krosan Grip)
3 Golgari Charm

Reached the finals of GPT Paris in Eindhoven (NL) yesterday, out of 45 players.
Unfortunately I lost the final, so no byes or spot in the invitational tourney at the end of the year. :frown:
I played the stock list with 1x Lily and 1x Sylvan in the flex slots.
Sideboard was:
3x Disfigure
3x Spell Pierce
2x Thoughtseize
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Grafdigger's Cage
3x Golgari Charm
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Liliana of the Veil

Short explanation of the matches:

1. Marion (Merfolk).
Game 1 she is mana screwed after a mulligan, and a flipped Delver gets there.
Game 2 she mulligans again, but this time it's me who gets mana screwed and the Lords kill me.
Game 3 she draws a lot of lands, which I discard with Hymn. I kill some guys and Stalker gets there.
2-1, 1-0

2. Folke (Punishing Fire control with Intuition-Demigod kill)
Game 1 he makes me discard some stuff. I counter removal and Goyfs seal the deal.
Game 2 same story, except I remove all Punishing Fires with my one-of Surgical. :laugh:
2-0, 2-0

3. Ruben (white MUD)
Game 1 his Thalia slows me down. I want to kill it, but I need Decay for Chalice. He gets a Metalworker online and casts 2x Lodestone and a Wurmcoil.
Game 2 I mana screw him with some Wastes and Stalker comes down to finish him off.
Game 3 I start beating with a Goyf. He gets a Batterskull in and stalls the board. We go into time, which saves my ass.
1-1-1, 2-0-1

4. Bart (Canadian Thresh)
Game 1 I Deathrite him a bit while he Stifles my lands. He kills the Shaman and floods the board with guys. I just sit there.
Game 2 I make a serious mistake when I could have played around a Stifle but failed and again I have no chance. I do manage to kill a Delver or two, but he gets a True-Name Nemesis on the board which I just cannot handle.
0-2, 2-1-1

5. Theun (DeathBlade)
Game 1 I win without him dealing me damage, but I don't really remember how. Probably got a Goyf in.
Game 2 is a bigger battle. We fight over board presence and Stalker gets there just in time (he managed 10 damage when I was on 11 life).
2-0, 3-1-1

6. Tom (friend of mine, rocking Solidarity, major props for that and too bad we have to fight eachother for the win-and-in)
Game 1 I have a FoW and double Daze for permission. My Deathrite also annoys his Snappies a bit. At some point he tries to go off and I stop it, apart from him Freezing me for 15. He then tries again and manages to cast Meditate with one High Tide online, three mana floating and nothing left in hand. He whiffs, drawing 2x Island, 2x FoW.
Game 2 I draw the nuts: one land, a Delver, a cantrip, 2x Daze, 2x Spell Pierce and a Goyf. I cantrip into another land and put him on a clock. I find a FoW to go with the rest and he just never gets anything going.
2-0, 4-1-1 and reach top-8 as number 8. :smile: (but I'm on the draw every game because I am 8th...)

Quarterfinal against Frank with Punishing Jund.
Game 1 he gets the engine going and I'm just never in there.
Game 2 I screw him with double Wasteland. He never draws new land and I win easily.
Game 3 I have to mull to five while he snap-keeps. I feel this is probably it, but you never know. He starts fetch-swamp-toughtseize and takes my Ponder. I draw and cast a Deathrite. He plays Grove and casts a Deathrite as well. I waste his Grove and use my Deathrite to counter the mana ability of his. He again never draws more land, but I find cantrips, which in turn find me Disfigure for the Deathrite, a Goyf for a clock and so on. Talk about changing luck!
2-1, 5-1-1

The top-4 decides to split the prizes, but we still have to play for the byes and the spot in the invitational tourney. I for one am very happy that the pressure is off. There's only a small chance that I'll make it to Paris anyway, so the money is most important to me. Do want a spot in that invitational though... :wink:

Semifinal against Jeroen (Sneak&Show)
Game 1 I find a nice amount of permission, but he manages to get a Sneak Attack in anyway. Thing is, he lacks a guy, and after I waste his only red source also a red mana to activate the enchantment. I manage to kill him before he finds the two things he needs.
Game 2 I keep a slightly scetchy hand with a permission spell, a guy, two cantrips and three lands. He goes land, petal, petal, blood moon. Hilariously fast game. :tongue:
Game 3 I have a lot of permission, but no clock. I find a Clique, which removes an enabler, but it gets killed by Pyroclasm. Why would S&S board that in against me? Anyway, I find a Deathrite as new clock, and later on a Goyf joins the party while cantrips find me more permission. We end the game with me holding three FoWs against his hand without enabler.
2-1, 6-1-1

Finals against Bart again (same Thresh player as round 4, oh shit...)
Game 1 I get a Delver online, but he manages to kill it. Later I get a Deathrite online, but in the meantime he managed to resolve two Goyfs while I was struggling with my mana because of his Wasteland. The goyfs just kill me.
Game 2 goes alot better for me. I sided out Hymns, because of the awkward mana cost and them not influencing board presence. Deathrite gets killed, but after some back and forth of resources I manage to resolve a Tombstalker, which is just too much for him to handle.
Game 3 I keep a hand with five lands, which in hindsight was probably a mistake. He never Wastes or Stifles a land, so I end up shuffling two away after a Brainstorm. The problem was that he used that time to develop his board, and my Goyfs enter the party when it's already too late. To make matters worse he uses two Submerges to slow me down even further and he gets a True-Name Nemesis in again which I never find my boarded in one-of Charm for (didn't feel I should board in more, because Charm doesn't easily kill so many guys from Thresh - maybe I was wrong there).
1-2, 6-2-1

So I end up with 57,50 euro for my troubles.
Over all I'm very happy with the deck and how I played it. I made only four play errors, as far as I noticed them, and I probably made some sideboarding errors, but that's no wonder since this is only my second time playing this deck competitively.
The main deck seems absolutely fine to me. Perhaps I'll change a thing or two in the sideboard. I'm not sure the Seizes are strictly necessary, and I would love to find some room for a Maelstrom Pulse. Did love the Surgical though. Boarded it in twice, and used it very well the time I drew it! Be sure to give me advice on one or two adjustments if you feel like it. :wink:

One thing I did manage to confirm here: the deck is SERIOUSLY awesome to play! :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Kowitz

Hey everyone,

I usually play TES, but I enjoy switching up decks, to have a second deck to play. Those decks have been dredge, UWR delver, Sneak Show, and most recently Esper Stoneblade. Now I am building Team America.

I put together the stock list, minus one Abrupt Decay main. So with that spot open, plus the two flex spots, I am playing 2 Liliana and one Sylvan Library.

How do you feel about Toxic Deluge in the board? I am testing it as a one of, as it seems like it is very strong against a lot of decks.

Here is my board:

1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Creeping Tarpit (I see this one in almost every SB, so I put it here as well, just curious as to when I board it in)
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
3 Disfigure (I might cut one for either the 4th Abrupt Decay, or a Krosan Grip, or maybe just make the Maelstrom pulse a Krosan Grip)
3 Golgari Charm

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Hi!
Toxic deluge at 3cmc seems a little too much in term of tempo when you have a party of creatures for trade, 3 disfigure (which i advise not to cut because they kill everything relevant in most MU at the cost of just one mana) and 3 charms; but as a one of is worth to test (personally i love it in my Shardless BUG so maybe...).
Tarpit IMO is very useful in general in MU with decks w/o Wastes in games that you don't need to rush i.e. after stabilize against a combo deck.
Just the 2cents of a fresh TA player.

- L

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Originally Posted by wcm8

How are you losing to Burn? You have Tarmogoyf, Hymn to Tourach, Daze, FoW, Spell Pierce (in the board), DRS, and Delver as a fast clock. You just need to play intelligently, e.g. don't overextend with lands/keep Wasteland up, don't drop a Goyf into Bolt range, use DRS's +2 life ability whenever possible, know which spells to counter and which to ignore, etc. This matchup used to be really poor, but with the advent of DRS/Delver I feel like this is actually a fairly positive matchup.

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Against the bad burn players I agree 100%
Try playing against the good ones and take your head out of your ass.
I take uwr delver over burn any day. (Given competent pilots, which are not always guaranteed to come alongside goblin guide)

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Originally Posted by wcm8

I would also say that among Tempo decks, TA struggles the least against MUD. This is partially because a Chalice on 1 isn't quite as backbreaking: we have plenty of two drops and we can also Decay it. I'm not saying this matchup is 'easy', but as long as you can stave off their broken early turns, you should be able to win due to us playing Ponder/Bstorm and them relying on top-decks.

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Surprisingly, I agree completely. I still feel the need to point out that this does not, however make the pairing a pleasant experience.

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Originally Posted by wcm8

Painter is pretty close to an auto-Loss, I'll give you that. A single Blood Moon effect resolving is essentially game over. The best you can hope for is some luck with being able to counter their bombs and keeping up mana for a sandbagged Decay for their Painter and/or Golgari Charm for Blood Moon. That said, I wouldn't really bother warping the deck too much to beat them, because to do so would weaken the list against everything else. They are a deck designed to beat on anything leaning too heavily on non-Basics. Plus, it's not like Painter is a large portion of the metagame.

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Not an auto-loss. Nowhere near an auto loss actually, but if they keep their sevens we are in for a rough one :/
Other than that I mostly agree. Watch out for moon and clock them. Hymn and keep decay up. Good times will be had.

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Originally Posted by wcm8

Elves is rough, especially game 1. But with enough sideboard slots and a little luck, it's not really unwinnable. The key is to test this matchup and have a good sideboarding strategy. For one, I don't think leaving in Tarmogoyf and Hymn is very good, but I see people still doing that. You can always add some additional hate slots if you see this in your local tournament scene commonly -- Darkblast, Jitte, Engineered Plague, Perish, etc.

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Here I agree. And this is THE mu I will test again thoroughly when Julian has time again. He is currently occupied with modern, but when we get to testing I hope he will record it and maybe it will be enlightening to TA players as well :)
I would consider it a waste and an insult to him if I tested elves again against someone other than the Lord of Llanowar :D

Hitting 3 mana consistently doesn't seem too bad with this deck in testing, especially since we play DRS.

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Originally Posted by Kowitz

Hitting 3 mana consistently doesn't seem too bad with this deck in testing, especially since we play DRS.

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I was questioning also the tempo of the move: tap out for a 2x1 most of the time, since not many deck overextend too much (except maybe elves) and you have your own creatures, is not particularly good for me, but maybe i am the only one to play with players that don't overextend...

- L

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Originally Posted by Kowitz

Hitting 3 mana consistently doesn't seem too bad with this deck in testing, especially since we play DRS.

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The aspect of deluge in a tnn meta was what tempted me into goyf-stalker decks in the first place, yet I do not play the card.
Short version: it's not good (enough) in this deck.
Try to keep your delvers and drs alive intead of killing/siding them out. Been there, done that. Did not work out as well as I had hoped.
Big surprise there :/

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Originally Posted by deviant

I'm afraid I'm being overconfident but winning close to 80% of my last ~50ish tournament matches (irl & mtgo) kinda distorts my view :/

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I feel so sorry for you, bro. Looks like we really need to start playing more again after GP Prague :cool:

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Originally Posted by deviant

Not an auto-loss. Nowhere near an auto loss actually, but if they keep their sevens we are in for a rough one :/
Other than that I mostly agree. Watch out for moon and clock them. Hymn and keep decay up. Good times will be had.

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+1. If we land a Goyf early enough, it's usually a 5/6 or 6/7 very easily in the match-up and it will often put them on a 3-turn clock due to their Sol Lands etc.

Toxic Deluge really doesn't hold a candle to Golgari Charm, it can't save a creature from Lightning Bolt or destroy a Rest in Peace so what decks have 2 toughness creatures that'd make you bother playing Toxic Deluge over it? Only thing I can think of is like MUD or Merfolks or Death and Taxes that are seriously played?

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

Toxic Deluge really doesn't hold a candle to Golgari Charm, it can't save a creature from Lightning Bolt or destroy a Rest in Peace so what decks have 2 toughness creatures that'd make you bother playing Toxic Deluge over it? Only thing I can think of is like MUD or Merfolks or Death and Taxes that are seriously played?

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My first intentions with it were to trump shardless bug's board control. They clog it up with agents and strixes, we land stalkers and goyfs -> deluge, swing for ten = profit?
Losing our delvers and drs hurts too much though and my plans of "going bigger" with jaces, lilianas, librarys etc postboard against all orher tempo decks just failed to produce the kind of results I was hoping for.
And just jamming TA as it is seemed to do the trick just fine so I moved on.

If you wish to pursue deluge strategies, my inclination would be to look into bug-still style decks.

So to the more seasoned legacy players: Should I alter my sideboard at all based on some loam control decks doing well this weekend by adding stuff like surgical extraction (some of which run dark depths combo pieces)? I ask this because: 1. Two out of my three losses this recent weekend were to loam control decks that were in the Top Sixteen. 2. I've only been playing legacy for ten months so I don't think myself experienced enough to predict how the meta will shape up in response to the Jund Depths deck winning SCG Indy. This is a concern for me because I'm going to be playing at SCG Columbus in two weeks. I'm not afaid of potentially facing these decks since I'm confident in my ability to pilot the deck. Even for such a bad matchup I almost beat one of them (but punted unfortunately). Just wondering how much I should respect them in regards to my sideboard.

I find loam to be a fine match up as long as you know how to play it and how to sb . If you can land drs and fow or daze p fire, you're in good shape. Otherwise, you can often get there by playing too many threats and cantripping into wastelands for their key lands like stage and maze. Surgical is obviously great and Submerge on their token also sets them way back.

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Originally Posted by akatsuki

I find loam to be a fine match up as long as you know how to play it and how to sb . If you can land drs and fow or daze p fire, you're in good shape. Otherwise, you can often get there by playing too many threats and cantripping into wastelands for their key lands like stage and maze. Surgical is obviously great and Submerge on their token also sets them way back.

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True. That's generally how I've won games against loam control decks in the past when playing this deck. Might consider submerge now as well if Marit Lage combos starts to pick-up in the next few weeks.

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Originally Posted by akatsuki

If you can land drs and fow or daze p fire, you're in good shape

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Which means, that you're highly dependant on shaman + fow (daze?). Loam decks don't just die to a shaman, they can do stuff and most of times they have more than one card in graveyard.

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Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90

Should I alter my sideboard at all based on some loam control decks doing well this weekend by adding stuff like surgical extraction (some of which run dark depths combo pieces)?

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What happened with loam / land decks last years: It seems like a solid choice for some tournaments until someone starts playing again counterbalance or to run more graveyard hate.

I personally run 2-3 grayeard hate cards, because there's always someone with reanimator or ichorid ready to ruin your day. Surgical is also decent vs combo when you use it together with Thoughtseize. And no, DRS is not enough -at least vs ichorid, I'm not sure vs reanimator -. Some days you don't sideboard them in, but other days they save you 1 or 2 matches

Hi guys, I'm very interested in playing this deck 'cause I already own all the cards (I used to play Shardless BUG sometimes, which has plenty of cards in common with TA), but on the paper the DnT matchup seems pretty brutal, mainly due to several flying creatures, StP, and RIP postboard: all of our creatures (the only threats we have) seem to be heavily hurt by these answers, and DnT is known to have positive matchups against any "Delver deck" more or less.

Since you guys consider all "Tier 1 matchups" favorable or even with the exception of Elves, could you give me some advice on how to play and what to board in/out vs DnT?

Another question, slightly related to the one above: you always board out Stalker vs white decks or decks splashing white for StP / RIP, or are there exceptions?
Which are the other matchups where boarding out Stalker is imperative from your perspective?


Thanks in advance for the replies :)

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Originally Posted by Arcadia

I personally run 2-3 grayeard hate cards, because there's always someone with reanimator or ichorid ready to ruin your day. Surgical is also decent vs combo when you use it together with Thoughtseize. And no, DRS is not enough -at least vs ichorid, I'm not sure vs reanimator -. Some days you don't sideboard them in, but other days they save you 1 or 2 matches

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I don't consider Deathrite Shaman "enough" for any dredge deck, but then again Dredge is such a small percentage of the field that I just ignore it and hope to dodge it. This has worked for me so far. Also, Reanimator doesn't scare me in the least bit because they are easier to interact with, and Deathrite Shaman often gets the job done against them or at least pushes them into a corner that usually ends up well for me. Anyways, what do you put in your Graveyard hate slots Arcadia? Right now I only have Grafdigger's Cage but I may up the graveyard hate in my board if these loam decks start to show up more.

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Originally Posted by anakyn

Hi guys, I'm very interested in playing this deck 'cause I already own all the cards (I used to play Shardless BUG sometimes, which has plenty of cards in common with TA), but on the paper the DnT matchup seems pretty brutal, mainly due to several flying creatures, StP, and RIP postboard: all of our creatures (the only threats we have) seem to be heavily hurt by these answers, and DnT is known to have positive matchups against any "Delver deck" more or less.

Since you guys consider all "Tier 1 matchups" favorable or even with the exception of Elves, could you give me some advice on how to play and what to board in/out vs DnT?

Another question, slightly related to the one above: you always board out Stalker vs white decks or decks splashing white for StP / RIP, or are there exceptions?
Which are the other matchups where boarding out Stalker is imperative from your perspective?


Thanks in advance for the replies :)

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Death and Taxes can be rough but I feel its manageable if you play it right. Preboard you focus on out tempoing them. I'd almost always counter Turn One Aether Vials or Mother of Runes so that they don't get too far ahead of you. Hymn to Tourach is also pretty sweet against them in the early game since they're pretty soft to discard. Postboard side out all your counters and some other cards possibly for more removal, good grindy match cards (ex. Sylvan Library), a tarpit if you have one, and cards good against Aether Vial (ex. Pithing Needle), Rest in Peace (Golgari Charm), and Stoneforge Mystic (ex. Vendilion Clique). Your plan is still to out tempo them but you are better equipped for the grind that the match up tends to be so it won't be as bad if get a little behind.

On boarding out Stalker, I generally board out 1 versus UWR Delver and 2 versus Blade Variants and Combo. Having one against UWR Delver is alright as a way to blow them out on occasion. He's pretty bad against Blade Variants though so since they have StP, Jace, and somtimes Rest in Peace as well. Against Combo he's just too slow. Against Death and Taxes in particular you might board out like one depending in what you are board in but they see Rest in Peace less often than UWR since they don't have any card selection whatsoever.

Also, I was thinking someone should update the Primer so that players new to the deck can have some help getting started without posting in this thread constantly. I'd be more than willing to oblige but I won't be able to commit to it for about two or three weeks since I'm going back to College soon.

I consider stock DnT lists to be slightly positive mu's. Online you run quite a bit into team rocket members (enevoldsen and bonde most notably) and as long as they don't run mirran crusader (embarrassing against TNN) it is relatively easy to navigate a win. They still have nut draws, but we can trol-roll them too and any interactive game where both play spells favors us. Barring crusader involvement.

Be careful to not get gotten by wilt-leaf liege, develop your mana and milk golgari charm.
There are not that many creatures you need to decay if you have the charm, so try to save those for equipment and vials in case they are mana-awkward.
For a monocolor deck their manabase is not something I would take pride in :D

Counters and stalkers out, removal and mana in.
Beware of batterskull.

@Deviant
What do you think about the Punishing Jund matchup?
Last tourney I managed to win 2-1, but only because he stumbled on mana twice.
Other than that it seemed very rough.

How should we approach this matchup, and how would you side?