Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dontbiteitholmes
Good summary but I would change "stop making overpowered CMC 1 spells" to stop making bombs that require no more than one colored mana to splash.
They don't really make too many Lightning Bolts and Swords now adays that don't do something similar to a card we already have, it's more the goyfs/SFM type spells where you throw in 3-4 duals and maybe 2 extra fetches and all of a sudden have the full power of whatever color that card is as a splash color. Make people commit past the land base for non-blue colors or you can ban all the Brainstorms and Ponders you want and it won't change too much.
As a tool for mono colored decks I could see some kind of the following formular.
You have a card, that has broadly use in the color (for example a 3/4 flyer for 3WW) and a optional specific effect, that is strong against some kind of strategy and doesn't have a cost (like FoW), but weak against other. Let's call it "Affiliation".
"Affilation" would be an effect, that can be played like an Miracle as an instant and without paying it's mana cost. The cost to "Affilation" is to discard a card that has the same color than the played card. Then you reveal your hand. When the oponent finds a card that is in another color in your hand, graveyard or on the field, the card is put into the graveyard. Otherwise the "Affilation" effect goes on the stack.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tacosnape
2 - It needs to be incredibly powerful and require that your deck be constructed in such a way that playing blue isn't compatible with the card.
I wonder if we'll ever get a creature version of Chains of Mephistopheles with less clusterfuck, e.g.:
Faust :1::b:
Creature - Human Wizard
Whenever a spell or ability would cause a player to draw a card, that player discards a card instead.
2/1
More powerful than Chain ever was, splashable and quite anti-blue. Although you could still slap some combat upgrades like Deathtouch onto him to make him actually MD-able like Thalia, instead of SB material.
Grand Abolisher would be a great card as well, if it didn't suck in combat so much.
Aside from the casting cost, you could also have it use an activated ability that is quite color-intensive, like Scavenging Ooze -as long as the card has a similiar power level.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tacosnape
Black has Hymn to Tourach and Cabal Therapy still going for it. Hymn requires a heavy black commitment, but has still been seen in UB control lists. Therapy requires plenty of creatures or a heavy graveyard strategy, but again, decks like Cephalid Breakfast have made powerful use of it in a blue shell.
Discard is just plain worse than counters. Even if you printed BB, sorcery, target player discards three cards, counters would still be a better strategy simply because they require an opponent to commit resources (thus preventing him from casting other spells) and are better against topdecks.
The problem is that blue's mechanics are simply the best in the game. In order to break blue's dominance, you need to give other colors its mechanics. However, that's not going to happen: blue is still first in card draw and still far and away first in countering stuff.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
I like Faust. Change "Whenever" to "If," so it's a replacement ability, and I also want to rename him something that just makes people cringe. Like Sanity Scraper. And make him more black-feeling.
Sanity Scraper
:b:
Creature - Human Wizard (Or Imp Wizard, possibly)
If a spell or ability would cause a player to draw a card, that player discards a card instead.
Whenever an opponent discards a card, put a +1/+1 counter on Sanity Scraper.
1/1
What about for Red? What does Red get at this point that's relevant in the Legacy metagame? Red would need to be pretty drastic, as Red has absolutely no disruption, and double-red cards don't exist in the format outside of Goblins.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aggro_zombies
Discard is just plain worse than counters. Even if you printed BB, sorcery, target player discards three cards, counters would still be a better strategy simply because they require an opponent to commit resources (thus preventing him from casting other spells) and are better against topdecks.
The problem is that blue's mechanics are simply the best in the game. In order to break blue's dominance, you need to give other colors its mechanics. However, that's not going to happen: blue is still first in card draw and still far and away first in countering stuff.
This is all kind of my point, yes. And I seriously doubt it'll ever be changed.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tacosnape
I like Faust. Change "Whenever" to "If," so it's a replacement ability
Right, my bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tacosnape
Sanity Scraper
:b:
Creature - Human Wizard (Or Imp Wizard, possibly)
If a spell or ability would cause a player to draw a card, that player discards a card instead.
Whenever an opponent discards a card, put a +1/+1 counter on Sanity Scraper.
1/1
That's actually a pretty awesome design. Hoses blue AND goes very well with the black disruption suite. It would also fill the current void black has in the 1cc creature section:
:w:: 1 cc: Mom, 2 cc: Thalia, SFM
:u:: 1 cc: Delver, 2 cc: Snapcaster Mage
:b:: 1 cc: none, 2 cc: Bob
:r:: 1 cc: Lavamancer, 2 cc: none
:g:: 1 cc: Noble Hierach, 2 cc: Ooze, Goyf
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tacosnape
What about for Red? What does Red get at this point that's relevant in the Legacy metagame? Red would need to be pretty drastic, as Red has absolutely no disruption, and double-red cards don't exist in the format outside of Goblins.
Snapcaster Mage should have been red instead of blue. Although it would probably splashed alot regardless.
Red has pretty bad mechanics for Legacy since Wizards makes cash of crappy dual land variants in standard and thus doesn't print good LD at all.
Who knows, maybe a red pitch Stifle for :1::r:?
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tacosnape
I like Faust. Change "Whenever" to "If," so it's a replacement ability, and I also want to rename him something that just makes people cringe. Like Sanity Scraper. And make him more black-feeling.
Sanity Scraper
:b:
Creature - Human Wizard (Or Imp Wizard, possibly)
If a spell or ability would cause a player to draw a card, that player discards a card instead.
Whenever an opponent discards a card, put a +1/+1 counter on Sanity Scraper.
1/1
Nice. Imagine following it up with a turn two Confidant...
Black definitely needs more love.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Oh we're at the part in the cycle where we imagine extremely OP hate bears for the cards we don't like?
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
Who knows, maybe a red pitch Stifle for :1::r:?
I think a disruption cycle with "when you cast this spell, all spells become copies of it." could be fun.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rxavage
Oh we're at the part in the cycle where we imagine extremely OP hate bears for the cards we don't like?
Yes, we are once again.
Good (new) viable Strategy -> People hate that strategy being viable and not their pet.dec -> call 4 ban -> trading opinions as facts on both sides -> substance lost in personal flaming -> wishful thinking of magic Christmas land so their pet Decks could be tier -> dreams don't come true -> depression about good (new) viable strategy (still) stomping pet.dec -> repeat
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tacosnape
What about for Red? What does Red get at this point that's relevant in the Legacy metagame? Red would need to be pretty drastic, as Red has absolutely no disruption, and double-red cards don't exist in the format outside of Goblins.
Most of the red disruption we've seen has been conditional, like the shitty stuff from Torment. Perhaps...
Not actual cards for those who think these are spoilers
Ideas Aflame R
Sorcery
Ideas Aflame deal 3 damage to target opponent unless he or she reveals his or her hand.
If he or she reveals his or her hand, you choose a non-creature, non-land card from it. That player discards that card.
If he or she does not reveal his or her hand, each player discards a card at random.
Thought Combustion RR
Instant
The next spell to resolve or creature to come into play this turn deals damage equal to its mana cost to its controller.
Induce Rage RR
Instant
As an additional cost to play Induce Rage, sacrifice a basic mountain.
The controller of target spell may sacrifice lands equal to the converted mana cost of that spell. If that player doesn't, counter that spell.
Walking on Coals 1R
Enchantment
Whenever a player plays a spell, that spell deals damage equal to its mana cost to that player.
Living Tinder R
Creature - Tinder
Whenever an opponent plays a spell, put a +1/+1 counter on Living Tinder. Whenever Living Tinder has 4 or more counters, sacrifice it.
Sacrifice Living Tinder: Deal damage equal to the number of +1/+1 counters on it to target creature.
1/1
Also, black needs some solid aggressive creatures. Tombstalker and Dark Confidant... are great but they are primarily control creatures.
Master's Shadow B
Creature - Shadow
When Master's Shadow comes into play, pay half your life rounded up.
4/4
Would be nice to play along side Death's Shadow. Pretty aggressive deck, but decks with Burn would do nicely against it.
Ghastly Mirage BB
Creature - Illusion
Whenever Ghastly Mirage would deal combat damage to a player, you may choose to have that player discard that many cards instead. If you do, sacrifice Ghastly Mirage.
3/3
Duskwielder BB
Creature - Nightmare
Whenever Duskwielder attacks and isn't block, it gains Lifelink until the end of turn.
Whenever Duskwielder is dealt damage, you lose that much life instead.
3/3
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tacosnape
So in order for a card to fit this criteria, one of two things must be true.
1 - It needs to be incredibly powerful and require at least double mana of a color that isn't blue to either be cast or be most effective.
2 - It needs to be incredibly powerful and require that your deck be constructed in such a way that playing blue isn't compatible with the card.
Which is a very difficult task to do and still be balanced in all formats.
Not true. First off, who says you need to be balanced in all formats? Commander deck cards and the like are only legal in Legacy, Vintage, and EDH, so you can print whatever card you want that would break Standard or Modern in two but is fine in eternal.
Second there are plenty of way to make people commit more to a color than double casting costs (see GSZ for one). And yes people can still run cards like GSZ, Hymn, and Tombstalker in blue decks, but to do that you have to stretch yourself very thin, which is fine by me. RUG delver can get away with it because only a handful of cards in their deck cost 2, but when you start getting into 12-16 range of spells with 2 or more CMC and your mana base is a hot mess because you are splashing for Hymn or whatever you will end up paying the price every so often. There are other ways to encourage diversity though other than BB or RR casting costs.
1: Have a "reveal" alternative casting cost similar to silvergill adept, for example "reveal a red card when you cast this or pay an extra 2 mana."
2: Have the effects on the cards have anti-synergy with counterspells and cantips. For example, if there was a creature that said "If a player would play an instant or sorcery counter that spell unless that player pays X where X is the number of cards in all libraries with the same name" that guy would probably not be so hot in a blue splash.
3: Have the card be good because of synergies with non-blue cards. Example a creature that says "when this enters the battlefield reveal the top 4 cards of your library, you may choose a red instant or sorcery spell with converted mana cost 2 or less and imprint that spell on this creature. If this creature dies as the result of an instant or sorcery and opponent controls you may play a copy of the imprinted card without paying it's mana cost."
Just a couple examples, I could literally go on all right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aggro_zombies
The problem is that blue's mechanics are simply the best in the game. In order to break blue's dominance, you need to give other colors its mechanics. However, that's not going to happen: blue is still first in card draw and still far and away first in countering stuff.
Not necessarily. A Force of Will is excellent versus certain decks but it can sometimes be a dead topdeck or less than optimal to cast. A hatebear like Pridemage, Teeg, Thalia is at worst a weak body at the trade off of being worse vs. those blowout plays that make you wish you were playing Blue. A Force of Will sometimes has to be two for oned on a utility creature that threatens to wreck your plans but a bolt is always 3 damage at worst and kills smaller troublesome creatures at the trade off of not being able to deal with the bigger stuff. Counterspells are great but there are times discard is better because it can be used proactively (I'll never get tired of having my opponent fetching Batterskull then passing the turn just to have me cast Cabal Therapy naming Batterskull).
Blue is king, but I don't buy the argument for a second that there is nothing anyone can ever do about that short of giving every color Force of Will substitutes (which obviously no one would condone).
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Shit! I didn't get to make a card yet.
Edit: Something Kamigawa Block like.
Bhan-Mi
Spirit Ninja
U
0/1
Flash
Ninjitsu; 2life
As Bhan-Mi enters the battlefield draw three cards, then put two cards from your hand on top of your library in any order.
AmIDoinItRite?
Edit Edit: Oh, wait.. No. That would be too good, wouldn't it?
Make it Legendary.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Don't worry bros you can go back to having a group hug about how mean it is when people play Griselbrand and how that should not be allowed. I just like to come in here every once in a while and derail the crygasm since the people in this thread are so fond of derailing every other thread on the entire site with useless complaining.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
menace13
Shit! I didn't get to make a card yet.
Edit: Something Kamigawa Block like.
Bhan-Mi
Spirit Ninja
U
0/1
Flash
Ninjitsu; 2life
As Bhan-Mi enters the battlefield draw three cards, then put two cards from your hand on top of your library in any order.
AmIDoinItRite?
Edit Edit: Oh, wait.. No. That would be too good, wouldn't it?
Make it Legendary.
Yeah and then the price of Karakas would sky rocket.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
I know they'd be hesitant to do this, but red cards that specifically hate against basic lands and which are introduced via commander decks could spice it up a bit. A 2/1 legend for RR that forces the defending player to sac a basic whenever it deals combat damage would be downright nasty in a blood moon deck. Blue mages would cry like little girls.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stan
I know they'd be hesitant to do this, but red cards that specifically hate against basic lands and which are introduced via commander decks could spice it up a bit. A 2/1 legend for RR that forces the defending player to sac a basic whenever it deals combat damage would be downright nasty in a blood moon deck. Blue mages would cry like little girls.
Blood Moon doesn't actually make the nonbasic lands basic, they just become nonbasic mountains.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stan
I know they'd be hesitant to do this, but red cards that specifically hate against basic lands and which are introduced via commander decks could spice it up a bit. A 2/1 legend for RR that forces the defending player to sac a basic whenever it deals combat damage would be downright nasty in a blood moon deck. Blue mages would cry like little girls.
#1: Why would a card be made for Legacy to hate on Basic lands?
#2: No card would ever "hate" on basic lands and not affect duals, that is against the entire design of lands.
#3: Blue mages don't tend to play basic lands that often. I don't think you are going to make a delver player "cry like a little girl" when they run zero basics.
#4: Can't tell if trolling or serious...
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Awaclus
Blood Moon doesn't actually make the nonbasic lands basic, they just become nonbasic mountains.
I know. But this creature would destroy their one or two basics, and leave them with useless lands.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dontbiteitholmes
#1: Why would a card be made for Legacy to hate on Basic lands?
#2: No card would ever "hate" on basic lands and not affect duals, that is against the entire design of lands.
#3: Blue mages don't tend to play basic lands that often. I don't think you are going to make a delver player "cry like a little girl" when they run zero basics.
#4: Can't tell if trolling or serious...
I'm not saying that they should, or will, make cards that can only target basics, but there is no rule in the game that prevents cards or effects from specifically targeting basic lands. Decks which run on lots of basics aren't too bothered with blood moon, but the ones which only have a few don't like to see that card. When I play a blue control deck with many duals because of two splashes, I immediately start fetching the few basics I have (always at least one of every colour I play) when I suspect that the opponent has a Blood Moon effect. Decks like that will suffer when you have fast specific hate available against the few basics they have.
Delver is a fast aggro deck. I agree that it wouldn't care too much if you put that hypothetic legendary creature of mine down (they'd probably bolt it immediately anyway). But that's just one deck. Delver decks are blue, just like those slower 3 or 4 colour Jace control decks are. But they play very different. Different hate is good against different kinds of decks. I shouldn't have to explain this.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Red has a lot of cards that hate on blue, maybe it would be a good start to play them.
