[Deck] Aggro Loam

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Originally Posted by pocari79

Went to a local tournament today and went an amazing 0-3 drop. Used the list that Schniggaz proposed a page or two back except I had three Leyline of the Voids instead of the Crop Rotation, Bojuka Bog graveyard hate in the sideboard. I played fairly bad today but felt like I didn't draw that well either so that didn't help. I wasn't that used to the new-ish manabase and felt like I kept on playing the wrong lands and fetching the wrong lands. Just miserable.

Thoughts about the deck as of now:
- I liked having the 3rd loam but only having 1 cycling land really makes the loams not as effective as before when you could dredge with loam and still draw a card with a cycling land.
- I know many people like having the Thespian's Stage + Dark Depth combo in the maindeck or sideboard but I've really grown to dislike it. I've had to mulligan multiple times today where I kept on drawing the Stage or the DD in my opening hand and there just wasn't enough colored sources in hand to keep and that was very frustrating. Going for the combo also felt very clunky and it always seems like the opponent had an answer ready for it.
- Also, this is probably just me but it seems like every time I resolve a Chalice on 1, in the next two draw steps, I always end up drawing the Deathrite Shaman and this has happened in multiple tournaments already which is very annoying. I will definitely change the Deathrite back to an Abrupt Decay as I have found that I missed having a 4th Decay. Maybe I'm not playing the deck right by always using GSZ to get the Deathrite out of the deck ASAP when there's a Chalice on 1 but I just feel I need to save the GSZ for a Knight as a Knight usually has higher impact.
- I've really missed having the Maelstrom Pulse in the sideboard for the past couple of tournaments and I feel like the deck needs some kind of effect like that to deal with problem threats like a fast Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Also, has anybody actually every destroyed multiple permanents with a Pulse? I've never done it and I want to try a Vindicate in place of a Pulse since I have many times wanted to have the ability to destroy a land when I had a Pulse in hand.
- I really want to also have a Pyroclasm type card in the sideboard. Didn't have one today and really felt the need for one. I could see running a Pyroclasm but if there are a lot of Mentors running around, maybe we need something like Sudden Demise instead? It'll cost more to kill big things but at least you're not paying tons of life like Toxic Deluge. The only issue this might have is that now the manabase post board is going to be stretched to need more white for Swords to Plowshares and red for the sweepers. Not sure if our mana can take the strain.

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I get what you mean with the fetching, i missed a top 8 yesterday for that reason =(

Statistically speaking, the poor results with getting cards you don't want at the wrong time sounds anomalous. If you have "always" draw deathrite after chalicing or frequently have a piece of the DD combo in your opener, you definitely won the lottery for downside of variance. I suppose it's not wrong to remove any of the aforementioned cards for something else if that's what you prefer but my experience with the cards has been nothing short of spectacular. Having a tutorable 1 turn kill is so powerful for a 2 slot investment, i just can't see dropping it for something else.

Can't say i have a strong opinion on any board wipes as of yet. i tried crop rotation + bojuka bog + tabernacle package yesterday and it worked out ok. it might be worse than a straight up pryoclasm effect but i just can't bring myself to cut it. The tabernacle is one hell of a drug.

Talk me out of playing Titania, Protector of Argoth again please. She just looks so sweet and I really lack a fast win sometimes with multiple targets. Hate getting my Knight bounced by jace...

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Originally Posted by schniggaz

Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

It seems like you are really impressed by her. I did play a lot of Maverick back in the days, so of course I am in love with her as well. Considering my Maindeck /SB configurations from Post 3327: It could be possible to play a second one over the Ethersworn Canonist and/or a second/third one over the Slaughter Games.

-It is worse against Elves, but to be honest, going down on Abrupt Decays and Dark Confidants postboard didn't really convince me anyways.
-SneakShow (which is worse than 50/50 in my opinion) and Burn, "the bad matchups", are getting better
-The Storm matchup doesn't change a lot.
-I can also see bringing them in against Delver and Miracles, but here are my concerns:

What else could/should we board out against Miracles?

How much does it hinder ourself when playing against Delver? Wasteland can be really crippling.
Are we exposing ourselves to cards like Forked Bolt or Pyroclasm-Effects?
And what else should we board out? Every card just seems so good postboard?

That means: I can definitely see running more than one copy in the 75, but I am skeptical that we will be able to squeeze them in against Delver and Miracles.

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With regards to Thalia and Miracles, why is Thoughtseize better than she is there? Especially that we are keeping every Chalice in and not being quickly pressured (like combo matchups where TS and Chalice remain in), would she be a benefit there, especially now that every miracles player knows to play around wasteland (so we can't really be taxing them in that regard)?

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Originally Posted by Nocley

With regards to Thalia and Miracles, why is Thoughtseize better than she is there? Especially that we are keeping every Chalice in and not being quickly pressured (like combo matchups where TS and Chalice remain in), would she be a benefit there, especially now that every miracles player knows to play around wasteland (so we can't really be taxing them in that regard)?

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You are boarding out 2 Mox Diamonds, so having just a bit more early interaction is never really bad. Thoughtseize actually helps you to protect your key spells, like Library, Liliana, Garruk or Chalice. You can take their counter or their removal for the relevant card. Furthermore it can deal with their enchantments, Balance or Rest in Peace. You can also deal with Mentor or Jace. And what is also really important: you can deal with Blood Moon and Ruination. It is great to have Zenith + Rec Sage to deal with Blood Moon, but sometimes they do run some kind of Ruination-Effect now. Thoughtseize is just so versatile here.

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Originally Posted by useL

Talk me out of playing Titania, Protector of Argoth again please. She just looks so sweet and I really lack a fast win sometimes with multiple targets. Hate getting my Knight bounced by jace...

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Whatever is true for the Gitrog Monster is also true for Titania. 5 mana spells are only good in the slow matchups. We are talking about Legacy. There is no way you can make room for these cards maindeck and you have better options for your SB.

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Originally Posted by juppal

Wow. Okay I wouldn't have considered this hand to be a mulligan on the draw. Is there any other guidelines you had on mulligans? Specifically in certain matchups?

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With this hand OTD you will lose to any comboish deck, any reasonable Delver,Shardless,Miracles,Eldrazi, Death and Taxes draw. I can hardly see any matchup you would be favored by keeping this hand OTD.

Not the expert, but I would definitely keep that. As a 6 card hand with 2 lands 2 bob decay and lili, it's passable. You get to see their first turn to decide whether to lead with Arbor or fetch

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Originally Posted by schniggaz

You are boarding out 2 Mox Diamonds, so having just a bit more early interaction is never really bad. Thoughtseize actually helps you to protect your key spells, like Library, Liliana, Garruk or Chalice. You can take their counter or their removal for the relevant card. Furthermore it can deal with their enchantments, Balance or Rest in Peace. You can also deal with Mentor or Jace. And what is also really important: you can deal with Blood Moon and Ruination. It is great to have Zenith + Rec Sage to deal with Blood Moon, but sometimes they do run some kind of Ruination-Effect now. Thoughtseize is just so versatile here.



Whatever is true for the Gitrog Monster is also true for Titania. 5 mana spells are only good in the slow matchups. We are talking about Legacy. There is no way you can make room for these cards maindeck and you have better options for your SB.



With this hand OTD you will lose to any comboish deck, any reasonable Delver,Shardless,Miracles,Eldrazi, Death and Taxes draw. I can hardly see any matchup you would be favored by keeping this hand OTD.

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Okay, that makes sense. Any other mulligan rules of thumb? Specific circumstances would be a great example too.

Just logged in to congratulate Schnigazz for the finish!

I've been an admirer since the first days of glory at BOM and I'm back to try the deck again.
Trying to get prepared for the brazillian GP with this beauty, hoping to pilot your list from Frankfurt, with both planeswalkers on sideboard.

I've just ordered Garruk as I've never played him. I know it's probably been know to death but since I've never had one to try, I assume his biggest use is for grindy matches yeah? Such as DnT or Blade/Shardless? Where else he's most used?

I simply love this new Chandra, I look forward to demolish some miracles!

I'm expecting a meta with some Sneak Show decks so I might tech it out as you pointed recently.

A few more questions regarding the SB plans listed a few pages back:

1. What does Crop Rotation get us against Elves, if you're not on Tabernacle? Are we just digging for Groves so we can start P Firing everything? Same for Eldrazi, is it just digging for Maze?
2. Why do Abrupt Decays stay in against Sneak and Show over the cards you're taking out like Scooze or P Fire? I know they're slow, but wouldn't you rather have a PFire in case they get greedy and go low off Griselbrand?

Also I'm leaning more and more towards Leylines over the Rotation/Bog package, but I'm not liking cutting the second sweeper (of Tabernacle/Fallout). If I went to 3 leylines, I assume the best cut would be the canonist (or 2nd Thalia, if you are in that camp), or would it be Slaughter Games?

The logic behind the Leylines over Bog is that Bog is better against Delver strategies, ones where it's fine to get a one shot effect. However, this is a bit less important now that we have swords to take care of an Angler that's landed, plus the matchup is already slightly in our favor. On the other hand, Leylines shore up a lot of the fringe matchups that are unfavored for us, like Dredge or Reanimator. With that being said, Delver is still a loseable matchup, and I'm much more likely to play that in a GP than the fringe decks (though at SeaTac last year I did play Dredge, Oops all Spells, and Reanimator in 13 rounds, and Delver only twice, but that's an anecdote and wouldn't be the norm). Additionally, I can hope that the presence of Eldrazi playing 3-4 Leylines of their own is enough to take care of those decks?

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Originally Posted by Nocley

2. Why do Abrupt Decays stay in against Sneak and Show over the cards you're taking out like Scooze or P Fire? I know they're slow, but wouldn't you rather have a PFire in case they get greedy and go low off Griselbrand?

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SnS tend to play a few Blood Moon in the board.

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Originally Posted by Nocley

A few more questions regarding the SB plans listed a few pages back:

1. What does Crop Rotation get us against Elves, if you're not on Tabernacle? Are we just digging for Groves so we can start P Firing everything? Same for Eldrazi, is it just digging for Maze?

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Elves is really soft to Marit Lage.

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Originally Posted by Dissection

SnS tend to play a few Blood Moon in the board.

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Ah, that makes sense. Forgot that they do have those. I wasn't thinking enough about their SB and could only think that the targets in there were the Petals.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix

Elves is really soft to Marit Lage.

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Yes, but getting a second part of what is still a 2 card 1 of combo in our deck doesnt seem consistently fast enough? I know we have KotRs to search for the other half, but there's still a lot of specifics that we need to get to that point, as a KotR on turn 3 doesnt make a DD kill until T5, at which point we are typically dead unless we've seen another SB card as disruption. I could be wrong, this is what happens when every Elfs player locally either moved away or sold out.

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Originally Posted by juppal

Okay, that makes sense. Any other mulligan rules of thumb? Specific circumstances would be a great example too.

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That is really hard. I don't have any specific rules. What you can't do is keeping a hand without Turn One interaction against Fast-Combo OTD. Even you have like double Thalia, Teeg, Bob and Lands.

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Originally Posted by aluisiocsantos

Just logged in to congratulate Schnigazz for the finish!

I've been an admirer since the first days of glory at BOM and I'm back to try the deck again.
Trying to get prepared for the brazillian GP with this beauty, hoping to pilot your list from Frankfurt, with both planeswalkers on sideboard.

I've just ordered Garruk as I've never played him. I know it's probably been know to death but since I've never had one to try, I assume his biggest use is for grindy matches yeah? Such as DnT or Blade/Shardless? Where else he's most used?

I simply love this new Chandra, I look forward to demolish some miracles!

I'm expecting a meta with some Sneak Show decks so I might tech it out as you pointed recently.

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Thanks sir. When is the brazilian GP? You should wait for the Top 8 Lists of Prague and Columbus, someone is going to get there ;)

Garruk is a must. Bring him in whenever the games are going long. He even got better with the last release, since Shardless can't Decay him once he flipped =)
Chandra is just awesome. You have to love her. But I probably won't find a place for her next weekend.

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Originally Posted by Nocley

A few more questions regarding the SB plans listed a few pages back:

1. What does Crop Rotation get us against Elves, if you're not on Tabernacle? Are we just digging for Groves so we can start P Firing everything? Same for Eldrazi, is it just digging for Maze?

2. Why do Abrupt Decays stay in against Sneak and Show over the cards you're taking out like Scooze or P Fire? I know they're slow, but wouldn't you rather have a PFire in case they get greedy and go low off Griselbrand?

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1. The cards we are taking out are not better. Crop Rotation allows us to combo a bit faster. It is not like you need a Knight for a turn, sometimes you just draw one piece of the Combo anyways. Getting Grove or sometimes just a Wasteland might be good as well.

edit: Maze, Wastelands and the combo are THAT good against Eldrazis, yes!


2. Blood Moon and Pithing Needle. That makes it definitely better than Fire or Ooze.




I tried to think about your concerns about the manabase and the missing cycle lands. I think I managed to get to enough Black, White and Green sources, while still playing two cycle lands, the DD Combo and all the other utility lands. I am now short a red source, but I also tried to reduce the red mana symbols:

34 spell stay the same (1 DRS, 3 Loam, 1 Library)
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Barren Moor
1 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Thespian Stage
1 Dark Depths

Sideboard

1 Reclamation Sage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
1 Crop Rotation
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Containment Priest
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Pyroclasm
1 Slaughter Games

Is anyone going to GP Columbus with 4c Loam? Id love to meet up for a beer or coffee some time Friday and say hey. I have a small crew flying out with me from Portland, OR. We have a bunch of gauntlet decks to go around, and I used to live in Columbus so I know where to find all the good stuff. DM me or hit me up on Twitter at @Vanifestdestiny (the latter will be checked more often.

Good luck this weekend everyone!

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Originally Posted by schniggaz

You realized that this is the perfect deck to play. You are a pro to me!

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Thanks for the kind words sir!

1 Reclamation Sage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
1 Crop Rotation
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Containment Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Volcanic Fallout
1 Slaughter Games

Pertaining to this sideboard, what is your general gameplay and sideboard strategy towards the mirror and nic fit. I am totally lost for what to board out for mirror except maybe chalices? cause every card seems so good. For Nic Fit, i can see myself boarding in reclamation sage, swords to plowshares, garruk and thoughtseize.

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Originally Posted by schniggaz

That is really hard. I don't have any specific rules. What you can't do is keeping a hand without Turn One interaction against Fast-Combo OTD. Even you have like double Thalia, Teeg, Bob and Lands.




Thanks sir. When is the brazilian GP? You should wait for the Top 8 Lists of Prague and Columbus, someone is going to get there ;)

Garruk is a must. Bring him in whenever the games are going long. He even got better with the last release, since Shardless can't Decay him once he flipped =)
Chandra is just awesome. You have to love her. But I probably won't find a place for her next weekend.




1. The cards we are taking out are not better. Crop Rotation allows us to combo a bit faster. It is not like you need a Knight for a turn, sometimes you just draw one piece of the Combo anyways. Getting Grove or sometimes just a Wasteland might be good as well.

edit: Maze, Wastelands and the combo are THAT good against Eldrazis, yes!


2. Blood Moon and Pithing Needle. That makes it definitely better than Fire or Ooze.




I tried to think about your concerns about the manabase and the missing cycle lands. I think I managed to get to enough Black, White and Green sources, while still playing two cycle lands, the DD Combo and all the other utility lands. I am now short a red source, but I also tried to reduce the red mana symbols:

34 spell stay the same (1 DRS, 3 Loam, 1 Library)
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Barren Moor
1 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Thespian Stage
1 Dark Depths

Sideboard

1 Reclamation Sage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
1 Crop Rotation
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Containment Priest
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Pyroclasm
1 Slaughter Games

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Some notes.

1. I tried the mana-base you suggested here and I genuinely felt that the mana-base you drafted earlier was much smoother and I actually felt that 2 Loams were much more ideal than 3 ( With the addition being the 2nd Sylvan). Honestly, Loam is just as pointless in multiples as Sylvan so there really didn't feel like a big difference. Obviously the 1 Cycle land + Horizion Canopy pushes me in this direction, but I actually feel like the Cycle lands are overrated as an engine and having a land that comes into play untapped ( Canopy) as well as having a better manabase ( Badlands ect) is really critical. Thoughts over 2 Library over 3 Loam?

2. What do you like Slaughter Games against Miracles for exactly? It feels as though this is similar to boarding in Surgical Extraction against a deck that doesn't entirely hinge upon their graveyard and therefore can be a dead card sometimes.

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Originally Posted by PCottell

Is anyone going to GP Columbus with 4c Loam? Id love to meet up for a beer or coffee some time Friday and say hey. I have a small crew flying out with me from Portland, OR. We have a bunch of gauntlet decks to go around, and I used to live in Columbus so I know where to find all the good stuff. DM me or hit me up on Twitter at @Vanifestdestiny (the latter will be checked more often.

Good luck this weekend everyone!

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I'll be there grinding trials, I need those byes!

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Originally Posted by schniggaz

Thanks sir. When is the brazilian GP? You should wait for the Top 8 Lists of Prague and Columbus, someone is going to get there ;)

Garruk is a must. Bring him in whenever the games are going long. He even got better with the last release, since Shardless can't Decay him once he flipped =)
Chandra is just awesome. You have to love her. But I probably won't find a place for her next weekend.

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It's on the first days of July! I'll definately look for those lists!

What do you mean about Garruk not being Decayable after flip?

Yeah I feel the only downside of Chandra is the high cost but I suppose one doesn't have a hard time getitng all the mana vs Miracles. Just watching out for that FOW.

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Originally Posted by juppal

Some notes.

2. What do you like Slaughter Games against Miracles for exactly? It feels as though this is similar to boarding in Surgical Extraction against a deck that doesn't entirely hinge upon their graveyard and therefore can be a dead card sometimes.

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You mostly target Entreat the Angels. It's gotten me some insta concedes already.

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Originally Posted by juppal

Some notes.

1. I tried the mana-base you suggested here and I genuinely felt that the mana-base you drafted earlier was much smoother and I actually felt that 2 Loams were much more ideal than 3 ( With the addition being the 2nd Sylvan). Honestly, Loam is just as pointless in multiples as Sylvan so there really didn't feel like a big difference. Obviously the 1 Cycle land + Horizion Canopy pushes me in this direction, but I actually feel like the Cycle lands are overrated as an engine and having a land that comes into play untapped ( Canopy) as well as having a better manabase ( Badlands ect) is really critical. Thoughts over 2 Library over 3 Loam?

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Cycling lands actually function more than an engine for Loam in this deck. The cycling lands help grow Knights early on which is important. Also, relying on Horizon Canopy instead of a cycling land to draw really slows you down as you have to use up a land drop. For example, in many games, I have been able to Loam back a Wasteland and a cycling land and I can play a Wasteland, kill a land and also draw a card with the cycling land all on the same turn and repeat that over and over again. You can't do this as smoothly with Horizon Canopy. Even if you don't have a Wasteland and have a fetchland instead, you can bring back the fetchland and develop your manabase while building up cards in your hand via cycling which is also great.

The cycling lands do come into play tapped but I hardly play the cycling lands unless I really feel like I need the mana in play (usually after a mull to 5) so in my opinion, it's a really low downside compared to having a draw effect that doesn't require a land drop.

I'm pretty firmly on 2 libraries. Library is our best way to see a bunch of cards. More importantly it prevents us from drawing cards that are dead in the matchup (or extra Mox/chalice when you don't need more).

Slaughter Games is good if you can guarantee that the opponent has no mentors. If they have no mentors they have a lower chance to win anyway. The way I play the matchup involved putting a teeg onto the board and keeping him there, so I'm biased against the card.

Canopy has less late-game upside than a cycle land, but it gives our knight another tool, as well as being better in the early game. I'm on 2 cycle 1 canopy ATM. I tend to side with whatever is better in the early game, cuz we don't need to devote more slots to winning the late game.

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Originally Posted by aluisiocsantos

What do you mean about Garruk not being Decayable after flip?

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Recently the rules were changed. Flip cards now retain their cmc on their flipped side. Therefore, garruk is 4 cmc on both sides and cannot be abrupt decayed.