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The recent Rock deck that won SCG Minneapolis beat Omniscience Tell in the finals, so this deck list and match write up may have some good insight for you. Reposted from a few pages ago
http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...troy_thom.html
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=49124
With Stoneforge winning for 2 weeks running, I'm worried that the hate will start coming out of the woodworks.
Since Show and Tell is so relevant these days and now Stoneforge may be worth avoiding, I'm considering a major shift to MD Thalia. I'll post list later today; I'm itching for some input.
What I think I'll be running post-R2R:
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Sylvan Library
--BOARD--
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Life from the Loam
2 Choke
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
2 Duress
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Krosan Grip/Extirpate/Open
So the changes made from the previous iterations of the deck are that I removed the 1-of Engineered Explosives/Duress slot, as well as the 1-of Maindeck Life from the Loam. The reasoning behind this is Loam was great, but was the weakest slot in the deck. Loam does work, but it's a much more reactive card, and I've been drawing it enough where I had enough land so that it wasn't as great as it seemed. I still want one in the 75, but I think in the main, I do not require it now.
These two slots were replaced by Abrupt Decay. I'm going to be testing it tonight, but the slot seems like a winner in my books. It cannot replace Pulse, that is for sure. You need Pulse to kill Jace, tokens, Batterskull, etc. The question is, do I want to go down 1 Pulse so I have less ways to kill Jace and larger permanents, but more ways to kill things better than I already kill well? The answer is most likely no, I don't want to replace Pulse, just have a better kill spell against relevant things. No longer (hopefully) will flipped Delvers live past turn 2, nor will I have to Waste a Pulse on a Jitte/Library. It's an answer to a Turn 2 SFM as well as a Sword they may fetch.
Overall, it's a really great complement to our arsenal of removal, but it's not a replacement for what Pulse is there to do: kill Jace. If it was there to do anything else, it might as well be Vindicate for the flexibility, but I like having the sweep advantage.
I'll test tonight and see how it goes. I suspect it will be a neat addition.
The board looks a little screwed up, but Choke, Gaddock Teeg, and Loam are for the control matchups; Timely and Choke take care of our Tempo blue decks with Burn; Deed answers Tribal and Maverick; Virtue's Ruin goes for Death and Taxes as well as Maverick; The Surgical/Extirpate slots are against Combo, Reanimator, and Dredge; Duress fights Combo; and I'm thinking the last slot for Krosan Grip does double duty on Batterskull, MUD, and to kill Omniscience. I know a 1-of shouldn't be relied on, but it was better than the 3rd Abrupt Decay or something like that. This is definitely the open slot.
With all the spells, I definitely do not want to be into Thalia right now, at least for this build. If my curve as a but lower, perhaps the Grip and Duress slots would be Thalias, or better yet, meta-depending, the Timely and Grip become Thalia.
-Matt
Thalia List:
4 Confidant
3 Thalia
4 Goyf
1 Teeg
1 Pridemage
1 Ooze
4 KotR
1 Thrun (?)
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 SDT
2 GSZ
3 Mox Diamond
23 Land
This list no longer fears Show and X and, thanks to a full set of Goyfs, it doesn't lose it's game against fair decks (which Stoneforge had always carried).
why are you not scared of show and tell simply by running goyfs?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrislegend
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar of Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrislegend
Quote:
and,
Quote:
thanks to a full set of Goyfs, it doesn't lose it's game against fair decks (which Stoneforge had always carried).
Presumably, it's the combination of Teeg, Thalia, Thoughtseize, and Inquisition that protect the deck from Show and Tell decks. What the Goyfs do is what they always do.
I played Damion's 8/31/12 version of the deck with some sideboard changes this past weekend as it was the most recent list I could find (Was trying to find Matt's list for comparison/ideas).
Sideboard:
1x Path to Exile
1x Dismember
1x Ulvenwald Tracker
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
2x Thalia
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Zealous Persecution
3x Choke
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Timely Reinforcements
Round 1 vs Dave with B/G/W Rock
He's a good friend so I know his deck fairly well. I had told him it would be an interesting night due to what I expected to see tonight (I also told him what I was playing).
Game 1: I basically had more Bobs than he had removal and he died slowly. Neither of us ever drew a Knight.
Game 2: More of the same but Zealous Persecution & Liliana helped keep his side of the board under control. Liliana's Fact or Fiction saw the following piles: His Lands or his non-lands which consisted of a Sword, CoP: Green and another Library I think. He took the non-lands since the CoP was holding back my Knights. I was able to push through from there.
1-0; 2-0
Round 2 vs Chris with Maverick
Game 1: This was a LONG drawn out game that laster for about 40 minutes or so as we both had answers for each other. He took it down though thanks to Garruk the Veil Cursed. The Deathtouch Wolves held back my huge Knights and slowly poked me to death before I could draw a Pulse. The maindeck Bog proved to be excellent prior to that since it neutered his Knight.
Game 2: I basically won this in quick fashion thanks to a turn 1 Ulvenwald Tracker since it kept him from playing his Hierarch.
Game 3: Can't remember off hand but I think the CA from Bob is what helped me get there. Worth noting is that we went past time in round but it was never announced so we kept playing. I don't think either of us wanted to end in a draw. Had turns been called I may still have won or it would have been close.
2-0; 4-1
Round 3 vs Elijah with WTF Maverick (?) with Vial
He normally plays G/W/b but now he has Blue in it as well....
Game 1: More Bob card advantage gets me there. For the 2nd time tonight I see 2x Mox when I use Top. Still no idea what the Blue is there for.
Game 2: I don't think I was ever really in this one and he takes it down fast. I think this is the game where Meddling Mage made an appearance. Neat trick with Vial but I don't think it's worth the splash.
Game 3: He keeps a land light hand and eventually gets a Knight out. I wasteland his dual on my turn and on his turn he uses his Knight to grab a Wasteland to kill my Dual which put him to either 1 or 2 lands at the time (can't remember). I had plenty of mana at this point so I didn't really understand the play. His Knight ended up dead shortly after. Later on he gets out Thalia which came to bite him in the ass later on as it stopped him from playing one of his spells. At one point he had a Mother of Runes, Tidehollow Sculler (Pulse under it) and some other creature. I attacked to make him use Mom then ended up killing Sculler then Mom with the Pulse. Also found out the Blue was for Stifle (again, I don't think it was worth it).
I found out later that there was also Snapcaster in the deck. Chris and I both independantly asked/suggest if Geist of St. Traft was in there since it was an obvious reason for the blue splash.
3-0; 6-2
At this point I'm the only undefeated but we have to go 4 rounds. No pressure for me to win or anything...
Round 4 vs. Donny with Modern Living End
He said he decided to play it tonight due to the lack of blue decks here tonight (there are usually many more). We knew what each other was playing as we sat at the same table in the previous round. I've seen him play the deck before so I also knew what to expect.
Game 1: I get a Knight out but he casts Living End before it becomes active. Bob smacking me in the face with a Batterskull didn't help either.
Game 2: Thalia + Wasteland lock him out of the game long enough to pull out the win. Worth noting is that he Shriekmaw'd my Knight which promptly ate an Extraction after it hit the graveyard.
Game 3: It all comes down to this. I get a turn 1 Library then use Wastelands to kill his non-basics to slow him down. His gd Shriekmaw kills my Knight yet again, and I Extract it once again. He eventually Living Ends with an Architect and 2 Street Wraiths in his graveyard to my Knight. At his eot I Path the Architect, then on my turn I Pulse the Wraiths. From there I have it locked as he only has Living End for my Knight which was active to fetch Bog. At one point in the match I was kicking myself for not boarding out the Pulses, but they ended up saving my ass.
4-0; 8-3 putting me in 1st overall.
The deck was quite fun to play and the only thing I didn't really like was when I would see Mox Diamonds in multiples (especially when using Top). If anything I would cut 1 of them for something else.
Thanks again to Damion for the list.
You can try my list next time :wink:
-Matt
Anytime.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whippoorwill
Congrats on the wins. Multiple diamonds can be annoying (and really surprising how often that's what you see from top/library). What're you thinking of changing the one (or multiples) into?
I ran this on Tuesday:
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Sylvan Library
--BOARD--
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Life from the Loam
2 Choke
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
2 Duress
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 can't remember
I didn't get to play against Delver like i wanted to, but I did end up playing against Maverick and an interesting version of Miracles.
1) Maverick: Decay was a house. The only times it was really awkward was when they had Mother of Runes up, and I didn't have two different colours of removal to muck them. Boo.
It mucked a Jitte, Thalia, Knight, Teeg, etc. It was REALLY handy. Taking out a Sylvan EOT then untapping into your play = very nice. It made the matchup better by having removal flexibility.
2) Miracle Blade: My friend played an interesting Blade variant with Terminus, Entreat, Counterbalance + Top, but no Snapcasters (2 Clique, 3 SFM instead). Suffice to say, many of the games we play, I didn't draw well. I was having trouble dealing with Counterbalance due to the number of three drops in the deck (even having 3 was super relevant). However, Decay was very good here, and ended up blowing up a Counterbalance, Shackles, and something else relevant later on.
However, the matchup isn't 100% where I want it. I do need to test it more since I was just having some clumping issues, but I really want to beat them up more. Terminus, Counterbalance, Jace, and Supreme Verdict make gaining board presence hard. Now, this is also to say in the sideboard games I never drew Tarmogoyfs, sideboard hate, or Dark Confidants...
---
Garruk was excellent and was nice in keeping up with Maverick. I actually love this guy. Tracker just made it over the top, of course.
I almost feel like I want one more Abrupt decay, and I think it would take a Pulse slot. I had a ton of stuff at 3 Counterbalanced, and I would just like to have uncounterable Counterbalance removal spell, and then just have 2 random Pulses in case things go sideways. Maybe not, but we'll see.
I will want to test a bit more against RUG, Omni-tell, and Miracles with Snapcaster, just to get the hang of it again.
-Matt
Messing around with Junk lately - and I definitely like it :tongue:
My list is similar to the one that got 1st at Minneapolis, but I'm constantly changing some minor things.
Right now it's like:
Creatures (15):
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
Instants (4):
4 Swords to Plowshares
Sorceries (11):
3 Green Sun’s Zenith
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Maelstrom Pulse
Artifacts (6):
2 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Batterskull
Enchantments (1):
1 Sylvan Library
Lands (23):
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
3 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
Sideboard (15):
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Extirpate
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Life from the Loam
2 Choke
I've only recently taken out the Hymns, opting for 6 Point-Discard Spells instead. It's not that Hymn is a bad card... Indeed, it's great... It's just that I sometimes have problems with getting Double Black, and that I sometimes wished that I could choose something to rip off my opponent's hand. I've lost as many games through a bad-hitting Hymn as I won them with good-hitting Hymns.
A 2-1 Split of Mox Diamond and Birds, because I hate to topdeck Diamonds, and Bird can be Zenithed for Mana fixing.
A 2-1 Split of Top and Library, because Library doesn't bind the Mana, and can sometimes become a Dark Confidant that can't attack or block - but still great.
Thalia in the Side to combat all those Control and Combo Decks.
Revoker instead of Needle because I looked at the MU's where I wanted to have Needles in - they were the same ones where I wanted Thalia. So, I thought to myself: "Why not bringing a Body with it? In the worst case, it will eat a removal, thus saving my other creatures. And Needles will most likely cost 2 as well."
Explosives instead of Deed because I looked at the MU's where I wanted to have sweepers in - they are most fast Aggro Decks. And with Explosives being 1 turn faster, and Explosives hurting for 0 when being revealed with Bob, my choice fell to Explosives.
After RtR comes out, I will definitely put in Abrupt Decay - over the 3rd Zenith, and banishing Teeg to the SB, where it will replace one of the Explosives.
Now, what are your opinions on this list?
Are the Hymns too good to give them up, and should I put them back in?
And, well, I hope that some of my unusual choices in cards or numbers don't turn out bad. I had (and still have) good experiences with them.
@Whippoorwill: congrats w/ your finish! :smile:
@sdematt: nice game analysis w/ the inclusion of abrupt decay, and i'm itching to have a real copy to be sleeve-in in my deck. Btw in your list 3 pulse: 2 decay works well? cuz i'm planning this ratio too, but back in my mind i want to run 3 decay 3 pulse (greedy much i think :wink:) but same issues w/ counterbalance they only set things up 3 cmc and 2 cmc on their top of library w/c is really annoying in my list. We love to hear more of decay matches against different deck from you :smile:
this is my future list w/ decay
4 bob, 4 kotr, 4 goyf
4 seize, 4 hymn, 2 liliana
4 stp
3 decay, 2 pulse
3 SDT, 3 mox d
23 lands
From the original list i ran: 3 pulse, 2 deed i replace 2 deed by 2 pulse and make 3 decay and move 2 deed to sideboard.
*if i'll go for 3 decay, 3 pulse i think i will remove 1 sdt so that 2 sdt, 3 mox d, 3 decay, 3 pulse. Still i dont have any idea what to remove cuz most cards in my list are OK in that number :frown:
I've notice some lists of Rock no longer run Mox Diamond, is there a reason for this besides personal preference? Is the acceleration not really that necessary anymore?
lots of dead cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kich867
3 mox diamonds, with 5-6 1 mana discard.
thats about 10 cards you don't want late game.
i would allmost run the same list as you ryn ball_2 with the only difference that i would use 2 decay and 3 pulse as soon as i can get them, and maybe 1 or 2 decays in the sideboard depending on the meta
i would be interested in your sideboard though..... and has someone some suggestions for a unknown meta for a "dark horizon" sideboard
right now my sideboard looks like this
2 deed
2 infest
2 choke
1 gaddock teeg
3 extirpate
2 discard (depending on meta duress/inquisition/verdict against burn)
1 darkblast
2 path to exile
i would love to fit in 1 or 2 copys of timely reinforcements, but do not know what to cut
with my playstyle and the deck i probably got the most problems against aggro decks,
against controll-decks i often do not know exactly what would be best to be sided out
i would appreciate any suggestions :P
@mox diamond discussion: i normally ran mox diamond atmost 3 copies whether i use dark horizon-like list or damion's list i love to ran them cuz
1) i can ramp onto turn 1 bob, hymn, sfm(if i ran damion's list)
2) it corrects my manabase we are running 3 colored deck so that i can virtually cast what spells will i drew assuming i have tons of green-splash spells while i have wasteland in my hand and mox diamond, that diamond will correct my manabase
3) it gave me proof against wasteland, magus of the blood, bloodmoon-effects, rishadan ports, armageddon, not mentioning the pridemage of maverick it that was the case a different story how i will run my manabase.
4) it also cheats RUG due they have wasteland and post board submerge i normally throw my forest land for mox d, daze-proof :smile:
@aggrosteve: maybe 3 pulse and 2 decay is atm good, still jace is floating in this current meta (miracles, uw blades) so that we have 3 bullets to kill it rather 2 bullets hmmm :wink:
@your sb: it is fine :smile:
@SB of dark horizons: for unknown meta i will ran this list, i'm a fan of running e-tutor sb
1 pernicious deed
1 engineered explosives
2 engineered plague
1 choke
1 oblivion ring
1 pithing needle
1 tormod's crypt
1 cage
1 warmth
2 enlightened tutor
2 extirpate
1 canonist
but atm i personally run -1 plague, -1 canonist, +2 zealous persecution, combo decks in our local meta are not in big numbers usually 1 out of 10 players play combo deck more of control and aggro decks.
I bombed my local Legacy last night. Every single loss was could have been won by Mox Diamond! Mine are coming in the mail (got a set at 25 a piece :cool:)
Really? Every single time? Prove it :tongue:
-Matt
Well, it was only a couple of rounds. Stoneforge/miracles control gained dominance of the board a turn before I pushed through his counterspells and answers (he got game 2 by drawing both of the 2 Snapcasters that he plays... I hate that card). Burn got it twice by a margin of one turn. Last week, RUG got G1 by a one turn margin. Show and Tell based decks always go off before I can get all my disruption online. I'm itching for Mox Diamond!
Can I get some help with my SB? It's starting to feel suboptimal:
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Kitchen Finks
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Choke
EE is gonna stay at 3, because it beats Mav and Merfolk. And I swear by Surgical Extraction, at least 1 Teeg in the SB (2 GSZ main), and at least 1x Kitchen Finks in the SB. Other than that, I suppose the rest is changeable. I suppose Edicts can be cut, as Omni-Tell is replacing Sneak and Show. I'm not sure I can justify Teeg MD, as some people have been doing. I know some people play 2 Chokes, but I've never regretted hitting more than 1 in a game.
Input please!
@mirri: your sb seem's interesting but you said it been so suboptimal this past days or weeks? since omni-tell are rampant nowadays i think for your list -2 diabolic edict, -1 gaddock teeg, +3 oblivion ring (still this ring works well against normal sneak and show) or +3 krosan grip (just an added value against miracles) therefore your sb will looks like
3 oblivion ring/3 krosan grip
1 Kitchen Finks
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Choke
Do you like to use extirpates??? i personally like it against miracles i will extirpates their removals like stp, terminus no chance to be countered unless the counterbalance blink flip a 1 cmc, and 90% gaddock teeg will be safe all day long assuming it is not countered.