I'd stick to Griselbrand and a few problem-solvers, personally. Although a one-of Jin in the board against combo and the mirror is a good idea.
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I'd stick to Griselbrand and a few problem-solvers, personally. Although a one-of Jin in the board against combo and the mirror is a good idea.
I left the singleton Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur maindeck just in the off chance I end up against a deck like High Tide, which gets played a lot in my meta. I was hoping it would give me a better shot at that game-1. But I would not consider running more than the singleton and even at that I never tutored him up for action. But I also didn't see High Tide or anything of that sort where he might have shined. In the future I will probably stay with the singleton even though he really could be moved to the board. But honestly, I don't fret much over those singleton critters much, just get em in your 75 and you're probably doing ok. My board needed a ton of help, but it still showed the strength of this deck that I did so well with such a random board and a slightly lacking maindeck. :wink:
I mean, yea there might have been a little thought put into my board. But mostly it was just "I know I need 4 Show And Tell, and some Surgical Extractions are usually pretty good, I like Iona, Shield of Emeria and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite seems solid, that Massacre Wurm is a foil so let's run that". But the rest was just "let's make sure we have 15 cards in here". :wink: I think I ran a Platinum Emperion and a Stormtide Leviathan, maybe even a Platinum Angel. My point is, the deck is strong as long as you get pretty dang close on the first 60.
I also don't feel like the deck NEEDS to run 8 critters either. 4 Grizzlebrand and 2 to 3 singleton "other dudes" seems to be money. Why mess with that? You'd have to find room for that 8th critter too, and I don't want to try to do that.
I keep the 1 jin in the main to combat surgical extraction, storm decks, the mirror and sneaky show (when they don't have a creature yet).Quote:
Originally Posted by TerribleTim68
I tutored for jin during my last tournament against TES. First game used elesh to kill his 16 tokens, second game bounced 8 tokens with truth and then proceeded to get jin for the fatal blow (got a griselbrand with the jin for complete overkill next turn). He is still very strong and if you allow your 4 griselbrand to be removed by surgical extraction then jin is the next best thing to get. Plus in the worst case he pitches to force.
I have iona and inkwell in the sideboard (and gilded drake but he is usually not part of the combo). You need enough critters to support show and tell second game and to get one in your hand with study/looting. I think you still need at least 7 to do this.
Edit: Allright! We're back in the decks to beat section!
HI:
Just have some questions regarding sideboarding;
1)Are previous SB cards like spell pierce, dispel(for surgical) and bounce not that effective anymore?
2) What do we usually take out post board? I know we board out Daze, but are there times we take out thoughtseize, and even FOW in favor of anti-hate?
3) Is a 2-of pithing needle enough for SB, or should it be a 3 of?
I want to include Submerge in the board to strengthen the Show and Tell -> Gristlebrand and opponent has Knight of the Reliquary or Revoker.
This is my current list:
17 Lands
3 Animate Dead
2 Exhume
4 Reanimate
4 Entomb
4 Careful Study
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize
4 Gristlebrand
1 Tidesprout Tyrant
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Gin-Gitaxis, Core Augur
SB:
4 Show and Tell
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Echoing Truth
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Submerge
It is also randomly strong vs other stuff like Thalia, Scavenging Ooze, Revoker, and has cute interactions with Surgical Extraction.
Against what decks would be bring in both Submerge and Surgical Extraction?
Do you run into problems casting Show and Tell with only 17 mana? The reason a lot of the decks run the extra 2 Sol-lands in the sideboard is to up the mana curve in order to cast Show and Tell.
I may have miscounted, but I believe the main deck you listed is 59 cards.
My list is exactly that. I actually have 18 lands. Whoops.
That's a good point. I can't think of any matchups where that would happen. It just seemed cool/interesting on paper =|
I have been testing the Submerge/SnT plan-board on mws and it's been quite alright.
Against RUG decks it has performed well (un-flipping Delver or bouncing goyfs), and it has saved me many times after my opponent puts in KoTR under a show.
It's a narrow answer, but if you're expecting a lot of RUG/maverick/rock type decks, it's quite a solid answer.
Yes, I would say Submerge is strongest against Scavenging Ooze, however, the other options you list are good as well.
Also, end of turn vs. Thalia, assuming the deck sporting Thalia also has a forest in play and you've got a mana open.
Currently trying out this list:
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
1 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Underground Sea
3 Swamp
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Ponder
2 Griselbrand
1 Hapless Researcher
2 Thoughtseize
1 Blazing Archon
1 Spell Pierce
1 Animate Dead
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Tidespout Tyrant
//Sideboard
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Show and Tell
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Dispel
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 2 Massacre
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Inkwell Leviathan
I tried to replace the third thoughtseize by spell pierce, since the lifeloss at times becomes significant. 2 dispels are for surgical and have a 2/1 split of grisel/jin. I was thinking of replacing the dispels with flusterstorm, since it has a wider variety and becomes stronger at counter wars. I was also thinking of adding a 9th fetch land, making it 61 cards MD in an attempt to have better chances of casting Show and tell post board.
Will it hurt our deck if we increase the MD to 61?
You should be adding an Island over a fetch and you should cut one of the creatures to make 60, having 61 cards isn't going to hurt the deck in any significant way but 61 cards in reanimator is unnecessary.
I have been pretty happy with the City of Traitors board plan. My current list and board are as such:
18 Lands:
4 Sea
4 Delta
2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Black fetch
2 Blue fetch
2 Karakas (could be -1 Karakas +1 Blue fetch)
4 Reanimate
4 Animate Dead
1 Exhume
4 FOW
4 Daze
3 Thoughtseize
4 Careful Study
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Entomb
4 Griselbrand
1 Iona
1 Tidespout
1 Archon
SB:
2 City
4 S&T
1 Elesh Norn
2 Massacre
2 Pithing Needle
2 Echoing Truth
2 Coffin Purge
I might go -1 Exhume +1 Thoughtseize because TS is insane, but I generally like having the 9th reanimate.
I like it how when a new list comes out, everyone copies it straight away without thinking (especially since they are basically local metagame calls). Karakas maindeck, TWO sol lands in the sideboard that are untutorable, unfetchable only serve to two purposes (avoiding pierce and casting show and tell, to talk about narrow) may screw you up if its the only land in your opening hand. Then there is this whole sudden hate towards jin, which is perfectly fine and in no way does it have the same function as griselbrand, which is hyped as fuck tbh, at least in the sense that everyone is suddenly playing 4 of it as if it meant the second coming of jesus christ. I wanna see when people start boarding totem or needle to hate it and you'll see that your entire deck depends on a single creature. Simple strategies usually have simple counters. Reanimator is a toolbox, this is not sneak and show nor hypergenesis, its not supposed to be a brainless griselbrand summoner as those decks.
And what about show and tell, its basically the only real sideboard showing up in nowadays list, which means even a goddamn goblin deck with a single faerie macabre in hand will probably destroy this deck altogether, or something stupid as burn. All it takes is simple stuff such as a cage since most of these sideboards have no way to deal with anything other than hating out maverick and casting show and tell blindlessly. At least if every deck ran 4 thoughtseize, then it would be a bit better, but 2? 3? Come on, ever noticed you may sneak an enemy emrakul or griselbrand into play? (normally show and tell would NEVER be sided in against decks holding these cards, but now that the sideboards look stupid, your are forced to it).
And I find it really funny when I see people saying that Tidespout Tyrant is god yet it doesn't change the game state as it hits play, its ability will probably do something only on the next turn, which is very often too late as it will get hated out straight away, its not permanent, it never gets to deal with karakas or maze and its just amazing when its the only thing that you can reanimate while the opponents field is swarming with real threats. I don't see the reason to play this instead of archon or even something despised such as Sheoldred if all you wanna do is annoy your opponent or gain time. For the later empyrial archangel is there to do the job. In a perfect world its a real nice card, but not in one where simple stuff such as StP can make it go to hell, leaving your efforts meaningless and showing you the exit door of the championship in a match you could have won had you chosen truly effective cards to add to your deck.
Forgive me for being harsh, but I'm just annoyed about how there is no real strategy development and valid argumentation that is fluid for this deck, not at least in these forums, its just a bunch of people doing the usual ctrl c ctrl v from another guy's list and it kills the purpose of this particular thread per se.
While I sort of agree, I notice that you also are just filling the thread up with garbage. Instead of mindless ranting, try adding something constructive.
I don't understand why you'd run Karakas over Wasteland. This makes zero sense to me. They both can deal with Karakas the moment you play them; the difference is that Wasteland also deals with Maze of Ith and anything else. I suppose you could run out your Karakas first so they can't play theirs, but then you are just open to a Wasteland yourself. I think Submerge is a better choice for dealing with Ooze/KotR (and therefore Karakas). Pithing Needle isn't horrible either. Perish is probably fine, especially if you are on the sol land plan.
Your opinion about netdecking(we all know why people netdeck lists) is respected but as what the previous post said, please provide solutions/suggestions you might have after ranting(or posting with sarcasm). Otherwise, what you're doing is counterproductive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Light Bringer
Why not start a post with what you're suggesting instead, which is discussing strategies?
I agree. Not all situations you want grisel in the yard. There are times that jin(or other creatures) are the better choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Light Bringer
For me, 3 thoughtseize is ideal, 2 is a preference, and 4 is too much. While it is good against macabre, it makes your best reanimation spell weaker(reanimate).Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Light Bringer
While macabre is very strong against our deck, it's very weak against other gy decks like dredge. So if your meta is filled with reanimator, expect to face the faerie (and sometimes leyline) post board.
Hello everyone!
@Dzra: Karakas being strong vs SnT decks as well as in the mirror makes it better then wasteland imo. It also bounces Thalia. Having the Karakas in play makes you susceptible to waste, but if they play/fetch waste, then your Grisel/Iona/Elesh will stay in play for one more turn compared to if they would have been able to play their Karakas. That being said, I've have not playtested Karakas enough.
@Bright Light Bringer: While I think that you do have a point and that this forum could be much better. I think Tidespout Tyrant is a lot better then you give it credit for. You speak of toolbox then suggest Tyrant to be replaced by Archon/Sheoldred/Empyrial. Tyrant/Angel of Despair is an out to whatever permanent causes us trouble. Tyrant is also very strong when animated by Animate Dead. Lately i've been playing with Tyrant and I think it's straight up better then Angel of Despair, except for when you need to play vs a Karakas. With the exception of Karakas when do you find Despair to be superior? Please share your thoughts.
Regarding the SB. The sol lands is to increase your mana sources as well as acceleration and if youre on the SnT plan then it's in no way narrow. Daze/Pierce also see a lot of play. I was skeptical at first, but the plan has it's merits. The alternative is more disruption.
"And what about show and tell, its basically the only real sideboard showing up in nowadays list, which means even a goddamn goblin deck with a single faerie macabre in hand will probably destroy this deck altogether" - This makes no sense. SnT makes the Macabre less useful?
Playing 4 Griselbrand makes both Careful Study and SnT "more consistent" so to speak. Griselbrand is also a lot better suited for a faster metagame and does not call for an additional animate to win the game as Jin often does. That said, I do agree with you regarding Jin still being good.
I'm usually posting in mtgsalvation's thread instead of this and, honestly, I've made a lot of especific criticism in my previous post and that is contributing for me. But well, to sum up some of the ideas I've posted over mtgsalvation:
- I believe there should be a split of jin and griz as in 2-2.
- I REALLY dislike show and tell. I don't know if it works for you guys but I find myself overly frustrated when trying this route because you'll usually side out reanimation spells/enablers, which makes the overall deck weaker, and keep cantripping forever. I have tried it with 2 personal tutors and it seemed better overall, but still I'd rather try it as a last resource only. It's a Reanimator deck, so I like the idea of keeping the style instead of changing it g2/3. For that purpose I've added cards such as Hurkyl's Recall if I'm expecting the usual variety of artifact hate, especially after graffdigger's cage has really taken a hit on pithing needle's reliability and its been pretty effective. The needle stays basically to shut down liliana, jace, karakas and maze.
- I have already tried splitting green to enable the use of Xantid Swarm, Pernicious Deed and Nature's Claim on the sideboard. Pernicious is just bad, xantid can be pretty helpful at times but I'm not sure it's the right call (needs more testing) and Nature's Claim feels pretty fine if packed along 4 thoughtseizes. Leave the claims for the artifacts/leylines and deal with surgical and macabre with thoughtseize. Really simple and effective.
- The main reason I dislike 4 griselbrand is that if he takes too long to hit the game then that probably means your life total is probably pretty bad, which means he'll not be the drawing-machine-on-crack its supposed to be for one or two turns, while Jin would have drawn you the win and discarded the opponents hand. Also, some lists tend to run no copies of Iona and no Jin also, which makes me frown at how bad they are against storm and the like, especially since those are supposed to be easy matches. I've even seen a 4 grisel and 3 archons only list and I think it's total bullcrap.
- Since I've considered pernicious deed to be a bad card overall, one can only guess I also probably dislike perish. Well, that is correct. I haven't really tested it that much but playing 3 mana to kill green problematic green creatures, namely Ooze and KOTR, while I could have dealt with them all permanently and really shutdown the whole maverick deck with a single 2 colorless mana Cursed Totem doesn't seem like a wise choice for me. Add along some massacres and you've got yourself an incredibly cheap and effective maverick hunting package. Submerges seem to work really fine as well, its the only positive addition I've seen in nowadays lists to be honest.
- Ratchet Bomb is a handful card but its risky. I'd use it in a metagame filled with artifact hate instead of some other cards. Overall not really reliable.
- The two sol lands in the sideboard really seem like a bad joke. I think its hard enough to cantrip into show and tell + the creature to care that much about a card that would only work after you've finished your hand sculpting, which usually gets you the mana needed, and would rarely show up at all. Its rather pointless in my opinion. Karakas maindecked looks even worse, its too much of a metagame call, and one that has way too much reanimators and sneak attack decks that you should be able to beat normally (I consider sneak attack a favorable match and reanimator would obviously be a 50/50, so overall, reanimator's got the advantage). The extensive use animate dead's getting lately, although innacurately due to its sinergy with Tidespout Tyrant as stated by Gerry T, helps to show that nowadays decklists are built towards beating fatty-in-game-cheating decks due to Griselbrand's overhype. Once Griz fever settles down, I can only bet they are just going to change dramatically again.
- Those Jaces I saw in some sideboards... please, just, PLEASE... stop it.
And those are some of my ideas.
Even though I dislike the card, I've always believed no one should sideboard less than 4 show and tell if that's your g2/3plan. And since this idea has finally been "settled", I would be glad to hear how you guys sideboard for the usual matches it comes in, just out of curiosity.
Edit: Also, my current metagame currently has a LOT of graveyard hate due to it being small in numbers of players. One guy even runs a beautiful sideboard consisting of 3 gilded drake, 4 surgical extraction, 4 cages and 4 faerie macabre to show his love for reanimator (I'm the only player here that is guaranteed to show up with a reanimator deck in every championship and there was this time when I disclassified him in a bigger one and he went all butthurt, so yeah, that's the love I'm getting lol). Hell, I've even faced maverick running leyline of the void, which I had no answer to but I ended up destroying it with his own Qasali Pridemage, and laughed quite a bit, especially when I've won that tournament afterwards. So bear this in mind when you analyze my ideas. One should understand that I'm always looking for "catch all" sideboarding techniques and that I'm always considering new ideas. And again, as much as I'd LOVE to spam show and tell, the thing just doesn't work for me, that is why I ask you about how you use it, assuming I'm doing something wrong.
And sorry for the walltext.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Light Bringer
Hi
This is my current list:
3 griselbrand
1 jin gitaxias, core augur
1 blazing archon
1 elesh norn, grand cenobite
1 sphinx of the steel wind
1 tidespout tyrant
4 reanimate
4 exhume
3 animate dead
4 brainstorm
4 entomb
4 force of will
4 daze
2 misdirection
4 careful study
3 faithless looting
2 underground sea
1 badlands
1 volcanic island
4 polluted delta
2 scalding tarn
2 bloodstained mire
2 swamp
2 island
SB:
3 echoing truth
2 pithing needle
3 show and tell
2 thoughtsieze
2 duress
1 gilded drake
1 inkwell leviathan
1 iona, shield of emeria
-Now I usually run either a 3/1 split of griselbrand/jin, or a 2/2 split. Since storm is pretty much dead in my local meta, the 3/1 split is now a bit better. I have encountered 1 storm deck in the last 3 tournaments which was TES. And I forced him to go for the empty the warrens plan in both games, winning with elesh and echoing truth. If storm would rise again then I would probably put some cursed totems back in but now they don't work so well with 3 grisels.
-Same reason iona is in the sideboard, no storm = less reason for iona.
-I hate the sol land plans and karakas in reanimator. I play a singleton gilded drake in the sideboard with bounce and discard, and archon + tidespout in the main which deals with problematic creatures. I might up the land count by 1 though because of the high number of daze and spell pierce.
-on tidespout: I've disliked angel of despair anyways and since I have the red splash for looting I have to keep my blue count high enough so I can pitch enough cards to fow if necessary. I have noticed people just giving up if you land tidespout since you can essentially timewalk them just by brainstorming.
-I have a mix of show and tell/echoing truth/pithing needle to combat gravehate and I usually bring in discard if I've won game 1 for some dazes. I usually bring in 4-6 anti gravehate cards depending on what I think he is using. I do have to say that with more reanimator/show and tell decks popping up everywhere that show and tell is becoming less good.
-I run misdirection main (and I always have been running 2 in my 75 even when played UB lists) so you can hardly say that this is a copied list. :wink:
Only things I might change now is maybe up the count of needles or add a few totems for the duress, which haven't been that great lately.
I played against following decks in last tournaments:
-instant reanimator
-monoblack reanimator
-RUG delver
-Bant
-Show and order
-UR delver
-Goblins (both monored and with black splash)
-TES
-Infect stompy
-Stoneblade (both UW and esper)
-Meathooks
this is the SB that I used in a local tourney 3 days ago:
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Show and Tell
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Dispel
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 2 Massacre
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Inkwell Leviathan
vs RUG:
- 1 elesh norn, -2 thoughtseize, -1 animate dead, -2 daze
+ 2 dispel, + 2 persish(they ran mongoose and ooze), + 2 needle
SnT is slow in this match up
vs Dead guy ale:
- 1 blazing, - 1 entomb, -1 reanimate, -1 exhume -2 daze
+ 2 echoing, + 2 massacre, + 3 SnT
vs UW stoneblade:
- 1 elesh, -1 blazing, -3 daze, -1 reanimate, -1 exhume, - 1 entomb
+ 3 SnT, + 2 needle, + 2 dispel, + 1 inkwell
vs ROCK:
- 1 elesh, -1 blazing, - 3 daze, - 1 entomb, -2 reanimate, -1 exhume, -1 careful
+ 3 SnT, + 2 dispel, + 1 inkwell, + 2 massacre, + 2 perish.
While dispel has it merits, I figured that flusterstorm is better. It;s a spell pierce at worst, only that it can target creature spells as well.
Flusterstorm can't target creatures, it can only hit instants and sorceries.Quote:
Originally Posted by aljiichiban
Maybe he just simply ctrl-c,v'd some decklist not knowing what Flusterstorm can do...lmao... while putting 61 cards in a deck is an old story though.