[Official] Bitching About Prices, Buyouts and Reprints Thread

Last chance on duals... holy shit how does anyone buy in now. Alpha counterspell is going to break 1k at some point regardless of a ton of reprints. There must be a ceiling that triggers a response to the RL or rip legacy. FYI, if you're still crazy enough (or rich) to buy in then start with RL cards.

So Dreadnought spiked a bit and uh yeah Alpha Mask is up to a cool $2,775...now that's simply the spike and not the place it will settle, but it's rather surprising to me as one of legacy's only dedicated Dreadnought theorycrafters. https://www.mtggoldfish.com/price/Li...ary+Mask#paper

Nothing from Dominaria, or any other recent set, can really take advantage of its wording...and it's beyond useless in any pre-Mirage format. Stupid random buyout, and the people behind it could have had future knowledge of which cards will be released and still not know what they're looking for. Quite astonishing, truly.

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Originally Posted by Fox

So Dreadnought spiked a bit and uh yeah Alpha Mask is up to a cool $2,775...now that's simply the spike and not the place it will settle, but it's rather surprising to me as one of legacy's only dedicated Dreadnought theorycrafters. https://www.mtggoldfish.com/price/Li...ary+Mask#paper

Nothing from Dominaria, or any other recent set, can really take advantage of its wording...and it's beyond useless in any pre-Mirage format. Stupid random buyout, and the people behind it could have had future knowledge of which cards will be released and still not know what they're looking for. Quite astonishing, truly.

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You have a Dreadnought list?

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Originally Posted by Fallen_Empire

You have a Dreadnought list?

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I mean I have plenty of Dreadnought lists, but the point I'm making is that there are a whopping 3 mtgtop8 legacy appearances since 2014. There are also three appearances in Vintage in that time span, all being Survival builds. There are a few more hits in Duel Commander where Dreadnought is *only* being used as a crappy, one-time way to almost become 4x Dark Rits in combination with Selvala, Heart of the Wilds. Illusionary Mask sees about an average of 1 appearance per two Dreadnoughts, a number that is above normal due to legacy appearances in stompy shells. The number of Masks in Duel Commander is zero.

I can't imagine that Old School is using the Mask, because about the best you could do is ignore an ETB tapped or upkeep cost phrase. That shouldn't really be good enough in the Disenchant format chock full of Moxen and other, better stand-alone artifacts. Looking at Battlebond so far, the only card that looks remotely useful would basically require the use of Sundial and being the active player. On Eternal Central I see that they have rules posted for Old School '96 - and that's about the only reason I can find for why Mask/Dreadnought would see a spike.

Patrick Sullivan's Hot Take on the Reserve List

I have to say I agree with parts of his stance, but I think there is a threshold. I wouldn't say it is a dollar amount, but would be the place where the prices actively diminish the player base. So, prices are fine, as long as the format is gaining players at least as fast as losing them.

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Originally Posted by H

Patrick Sullivan's Hot Take on the Reserve List

I have to say I agree with parts of his stance, but I think there is a threshold. I wouldn't say it is a dollar amount, but would be the place where the prices actively diminish the player base. So, prices are fine, as long as the format is gaining players at least as fast as losing them.

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I don't see how duals being 5 bucks (just as example) would drive players away given that everyone could afford enjoying the format and play with many different decks without having to dump 5 grand and more for a decent cardpool. Having to move large bills around every time you want a new/different deck, is stifling innovation as well.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I don't see how duals being 5 bucks (just as example) would drive players away given that everyone could afford enjoying the format and play with many different decks without having to dump 5 grand and more for a decent cardpool. Having to move large bills around every time you want a new/different deck, is stifling innovation as well.

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I'm someone with likely too much cardboard, and a decent job, and I don't want to pay. Not can't, just shouldn't and don't want to.

I'd much rather reprint all the random expensive stuff so OG versions have collectable value still, but everyone can play. I'd love 50 man Legacy weeklies. I stand to lose, and guess what? Don't care, would rather play Magic.

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Originally Posted by sdematt

I'm someone with likely too much cardboard, and a decent job, and I don't want to pay. Not can't, just shouldn't and don't want to.

I'd much rather reprint all the random expensive stuff so OG versions have collectable value still, but everyone can play. I'd love 50 man Legacy weeklies. I stand to lose, and guess what? Don't care, would rather play Magic.

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Same. Thank you.

I can build just about anything in Legacy, Vintage and most Old School, minus Eldrazi's and Shops. I would LOVE the RL to be abolished so there can be more players.

I lend out a lot of Legacy decks, to people who don't have the cards, but i'd be happier if they all did have the cards.

I'd don't care about value if the cost is hurting the player base.



I love P.Sully to bits but i think he's a little off base with this. IF Legacy was like Old School or Vintage and it was a luxury thing to play and own with no competitive offerings, then fine his argument makes sense. But with GP's and a PT having legacy, it's a very real thing to not be able to play for people who are trying to grind/"live the dream".

I played GP Toronto a few weeks ago, and more than a few teams we encountered were on sub optimal budget decks for their legacy seat. Realistically they were lighting their entry fees on fire. That's really lame in my opinion and seems like a big feel bad. For a format like Trios it would be nice if the deck decisions were really up to the players preferences and not just their wallets for legacy.

All,

I'm one of the few that is glad the reserved list exists. I agree with the points made in the video, I suggest others watch it. I believe the reserved list has a place, and the long term viability of the game benefits greatly due to the reserved list. I feel the game needs to have collector and player value, the current sets only have player value.

If anything, I fear that the value of the currently sold product is pretty much zero. I've felt that way for the better part of a decade. 20 years from now, how many singles sold in standard packs today are going to be valuable (say, 50 dollars, adjusted for inflation, for non-foil). My best guess is zero. If cards are valuable, they'll get reprinted to the point where they are "affordable-ish", which is likely less than my random 50 dollars, adjusted for inflation, line in the sand.

I'm aware that my opinion is not shared by the masses, and I'm alright with that. I bought in and it worked for me.

It's a game first. I'd argue it's a game second, too. And third and so on. Maybe eventually somewhere down it can be a commodity. An "investment" if you want.
But it will be those things after it's a game. The game is popular with kids today because it's a game. The older formats aren't popular. Because they're less of a game, and more of a stock market on training wheels.
The arguments are so old I'd just as rather copy/paste my rants from the thread previous. RIP nedleeds.

The sad thing for me is that Eternal has become more of a Collectors/Investors Game than one for actual players.

I am at the point of being straight unwilling to shell out a grand for merely updating my paper manaacceleration (not even talking about pimp stuff)

The point Sullivan is trying to make isn’t really a point to be made. He’s actually just describing the exact problem that we have with the Reserved List. It limits the playability of the Legacy format to proxy tournaments and similar. Yes, we actually do want to have Legacy be a viable format that everyone can enjoy with legal card-stock. Saying that everything is fine and that it’s only a small sliver of the cake that’s actually not for eating (sale) is – for once, in Sullivan’s case – stupid. And anyone who still believes that the Reserved List is actually keeping cards valuable should update themselves on current events. All it does is enable buyouts and fakes. And regarding value, have you seen the price of Tarmogoyf, a card that is seeing less and less play and still is priced where it was when it was reprinted the first time? Or the price of Leovold, Emissary of Trest? Or the price of Liliana, the Last Hope?

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Originally Posted by H

Patrick Sullivan's Hot Take on the Reserve List

I have to say I agree with parts of his stance, but I think there is a threshold. I wouldn't say it is a dollar amount, but would be the place where the prices actively diminish the player base. So, prices are fine, as long as the format is gaining players at least as fast as losing them.

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If I will run a shop or be part of a mass shop like he is. I would like the RL to stay -> just raise the price every week on your U-Sea by 10$ and count your profits.
But as a player with a family and a proper job. It is sad to only play every week with one guy and every 2 months with 15 people. I would like to see some fresh meat, new brews, stupid decks, etc...

The RL has to go to keep the format alive or it will become a relic of the past like vintage.

Two maybe three years and the next step will be a a new team trio Modern/Standard/ Pauper or New format.
Probably new format to sell more booster boxes.

Patrick is just protecting his own business.

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Originally Posted by ramanujan

All,

I'm one of the few that is glad the reserved list exists. I agree with the points made in the video, I suggest others watch it. I believe the reserved list has a place, and the long term viability of the game benefits greatly due to the reserved list. I feel the game needs to have collector and player value, the current sets only have player value.

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The sets only having "player value" has been true starting with Mercadian Masques, which they stopped including cards on the Reserved List. Somehow, despite absolutely no guarantee their cards would hold value, people kept playing the game and buying product.

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If anything, I fear that the value of the currently sold product is pretty much zero. I've felt that way for the better part of a decade. 20 years from now, how many singles sold in standard packs today are going to be valuable (say, 50 dollars, adjusted for inflation, for non-foil). My best guess is zero. If cards are valuable, they'll get reprinted to the point where they are "affordable-ish", which is likely less than my random 50 dollars, adjusted for inflation, line in the sand.

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And this is a bad thing because...?

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I'm aware that my opinion is not shared by the masses, and I'm alright with that.

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Well, it would help if the arguments in favor of the Reserved List were actually good.

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Originally Posted by Matsu

If I will run a shop or be part of a mass shop like he is. I would like the RL to stay -> just raise the price every week on your U-Sea by 10$ and count your profits.
But as a player with a family and a proper job. It is sad to only play every week with one guy and every 2 months with 15 people. I would like to see some fresh meat, new brews, stupid decks, etc...

The RL has to go to keep the format alive or it will become a relic of the past like vintage.

Two maybe three years and the next step will be a a new team trio Modern/Standard/ Pauper or New format.
Probably new format to sell more booster boxes.

Patrick is just protecting his own business.

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I don't think that's the case. The Reserved List isn't all that good for stores, because it limits the amount of product, meaning you don't have as much to sell, and that in turn lowers the amount of profits you can get from selling them. Not only that, the high prices hurt demand, meaning it's harder to move product.

This isn't the first time Patrick has gone off on a half-baked rant, actually. I remember him earlier (at least I think it was him) decided to go on a big rant about how Deathrite Shaman shouldn't be banned in Legacy. His points in the matter really weren't that good and were mostly attacking strawmen, but the peculiar thing was how completely off topic the subject was because they were, at the time, doing match coverage for a Modern event. Although it was funny to see how uninterested Cedric obviously was in the topic while Patrick was going off.

On the subject of team trio, I do wonder what they'll replace Legacy with, because I expect they more or less will have to at this rate. Pauper is a possibility, but I wonder if they'll have the third guy do Sealed?

You say Sully says that because of who he works for, but the owner of SCG posts on the source and has said he doesn't support the RL

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Originally Posted by ParkerLewis

Same. Thank you.

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Yep same here.

I also think we've had enough evidence with reprinting big money cards that the original printings will always hold a premium, but only as long as the game itself is popular and played heavily enough for those cards to be worth it for collectors. So, please for fucks sake bring on the reprints of the tens of thousands of dollars of reserved list cards that I own so we can keep playing the game.

What this whole discussion about the RL and skyrocketing prices suffers from is a lack of understanding that prices of MTG cards do not reflect a relationship between supply and demand in the first place. The prices, especially of cards considered to be staples, are mainly collectively accepted or agreed on ascriptions of values. People will always create reasons to rationalize why card XYZ has a certain value and the buzzword "Reserve List" is one of them which is seemingly apt to legitimate particularly high and ridiculous prices. Prices of MTG cards are completely malleable and mostly represent arbitrarily set numbers by speculators who have adopted the weirdest tools to push prices (see Meditate and fake tournament results). The RL is not the primary root of the precarious situation the format is in nowadays, just look at Goyf or Liliana for instance. The first and foremost reason that prices are the way they are is the mere fact that people are consent or convinced that single cards from a children's card game can or should be worth several hundreds. As long as this state is considered normal or natural by the majority of the involved people things won't change.

I like the reserve list, it brings some mysterious and hard to get element for this game. If you want be compatible and want all your stuff reprintable just play modern.

I usually enjoy Patricks rants, but what a load of baloney that was. His main arguments are 1) that it is OK that people can't play Legacy because they can still play "Magic" so there is really no problem, and 2) people who complain about the RL are mostly people who can't afford the cards are their current price. Both are completely wrong, and he just repeats them over and over. Much respect lost.

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Originally Posted by Cartesian

I usually enjoy Patricks rants, but what a load of baloney that was. His main arguments are 1) that it is OK that people can't play Legacy because they can still play "Magic" so there is really no problem, and 2) people who complain about the RL are mostly people who can't afford the cards are their current price. Both are completely wrong, and he just repeats them over and over. Much respect lost.

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1)

He said people can't play sanctioned tournament Legacy. I play in a weekly legacy tournament that allows all proxies. We have the same fun as people playing in sanctioned events. I bring a real deck, some others do as well, and a few go the proxy route. There are many ways to enjoy Magic, from Pro Tours to kitchen tables. The formats are varied and interesting, supported and unsupported (Old School). I actually created a format, designed to eliminate all luck other than 1 coin flip. It was fun. Is it that egregious that there are a handful of useful cards in an ancient format that won't ever be printed again? I don't think so.

2)

Patrick almost certainly has more exposure to peoples opinions about the reserved list than you do. Given his high profile in the community, I'm willing to believe that he is being candid. There is no reasonable way of doing a fact finding mission, admitting that your opinion on the reserved list is highly related to your personal financial situation isn't palatable. If Wizards lifted the restricted list and said each card can be purchased directly from them for 500 dollars per card, would that appease the masses? Suppose Wizards offers to take 450 of the dollars and donate them, in Wizards name, to a charity of your choosing. When I assert this proposed solution of 500 dollar cards available on demand, people gloss over it. Occasionally, people make a few snide remarks regarding the specific cards that have a current price above my made up mark of 500, which is not a clever response.

In my opinion, the primary issue is the cost of dual lands and Power. People don't want to pay the cost for those things, but they want to play Legacy/Vintage. I haven't found an example of someone who dislikes the reserved list and likes the 500 dollar cards on demand solution, which I feel is a good litmus test. From what I have seen, people want inexpensive duals. Inexpensive is usually some cost they personally can afford, but it varies quite a bit based on their situation.

I just wonder, can RL still preserve the value of duals? Really, at the current crazy cost?
Or is it just going to make sanctioned legacy die?
Or is it just going to bring a new generation of counterfeits, close to the original, almost unrecognisable?

Even though I am able to eventually pay $500 for an USee, I am loosing faith that it will keep its value.

Oh the issue for me isn't being able to afford Legacy but definitely not finding it worth the price it is now.

I'd rather see cardprices drop to near 0 and have my collection be worthless than see prices keep rising. I like to play with my cards and as such have no desire to convert them to money, so why should I care that my cards are worth a nice lump of money (or not). Same goes for not getting a return on the money I "invested" in it - I didn't need it and as such did with it as I saw fit, so why should I care about a potential return..? I honestly really don't. I'd be perfectly happy taking the "loss".

Heck, an enormous pricedrop would probably result in me spending more money on MtG than I do currently b/c then I would find it worth it.

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Originally Posted by Matsu

If I will run a shop or be part of a mass shop like he is. I would like the RL to stay -> just raise the price every week on your U-Sea by 10$ and count your profits.
But as a player with a family and a proper job. It is sad to only play every week with one guy and every 2 months with 15 people. I would like to see some fresh meat, new brews, stupid decks, etc...

The RL has to go to keep the format alive or it will become a relic of the past like vintage.

Two maybe three years and the next step will be a a new team trio Modern/Standard/ Pauper or New format.
Probably new format to sell more booster boxes.

Patrick is just protecting his own business.

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This is straight up WRONG. Patrick's opinions are his own and have nothing to do with SCG's management.

SCG management has stated publicly MULTIPLE TIMES that they are NOT in favour of the RL and would like to see it abolished.

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Originally Posted by raudo

I like the reserve list, it brings some mysterious and hard to get element for this game. If you want be compatible and want all your stuff reprintable just play modern.

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500, even 2000$ card isn't a price tag that make a card "mysterious and hard to get", such price tag aren't high enough for this statement to be true...
Still WAY too many people can afford it if they want. The same as if I want a car I get out, and buy it. Many people can do that, even every month for some of them.
It's just, plainly, expensive. But in no way hard or mysterious.

To be honest I don't care a second if a card is on the reserved list or not, especially when you see all the crap on this list by nowadays standard...
But the thing is, if legacy hit a too expensive price tag (and we are already in the red zone), then the format will die, because only people who already have the card, will play it, like Vintage right now.
No way it can survive when a 75 cards worth as much as a second hand car...

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Originally Posted by jattra

I just wonder, can RL still preserve the value of duals? Really, at the current crazy cost?
Or is it just going to make sanctioned legacy die?
Or is it just going to bring a new generation of counterfeits, close to the original, almost unrecognisable?

Even though I am able to eventually pay $500 for an USee, I am loosing faith that it will keep its value.

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Likely to die if nothing is done. Will survive online and that's about it...

And yeah, at 500 a USee, likely to see better and better counterfeit arriving on the mass market...
The price is getting very high, the supply is low, and the risk is so low compare to real money counterfeit... It's almost too easy/tempting...

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Originally Posted by Deisss

Likely to die if nothing is done.

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People have been saying this since the beginning of this thread, back in 2010. At what point is this prediction considered wrong, apparently 8 years aren't enough? Cards don't expire like bread. If you want in, buy in.

Let's think about this point and come up with constructive solutions to the real reason nothing is reprinted: DISTRIBUTION.
Even if Wizards wanted to reprint everything, how would they get the cards to players? Think about a new Masters set and packs that have a $10 MSRP. How much do those really sell for?
Now imagine a set with reprints of Power. That shit would never leave the stores because owners would act like the diamond cartel and hoard the supply and release stock to keep prices fixed (i.e. artificially high).
I don't think Wizards truly cares about legal ramifications of abolishing the RL. It's been demonstrated that original card prices aren't destroyed because of reprints. However, after years of this "debate" they've painted themselves into a corner since prices have ballooned.

Isn't the whole "500$ per card" somewhat of strawman in regards to stuff like Power or Tabernacle, if the core question actually is, how the fuck some 2k$ Decks should actually be able to compete against Hearthstone, a gaming PC, a gaming console, etc., when it comes to the question, where some 10-16yo nerds spend their limited money? That's the audience and new players the format needs to aquire at some point in order to stay healthy, but unfortunately they are priced out while the formats players get older and less.

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Originally Posted by ramanujan

1)

He said people can't play sanctioned tournament Legacy. I play in a weekly legacy tournament that allows all proxies. We have the same fun as people playing in sanctioned events. I bring a real deck, some others do as well, and a few go the proxy route.

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What shop has weekly tournaments in Des Moines? Or have you moved away?


This may sound a little elitist but frankly, I like that not everyone can easily afford Legacy/Vintage. Obviously the RL has a lot to do with it. I enjoy playing this game with adults. I’ve noticed the people who play eternal formats are for the most part more gracious, happy to just be playing the game and aren’t such sore losers. Games are far more enjoyable than playing against some try hard trying to q for a pt or whatever. Eternal players don’t seem to take it for granted. I see some of the people that play Standard and Modern and I would hate to deal with some of that behavior.

Legacy isn’t going to die, as a matter of fact, this year has been insane in terms of support from WotC. We have two GP in the US, one in Europe, one in Asia, three Eternal Weekends and countless team events from SCG. Hell, it’s even going to be played in a Pro Tour. If you’d have told me that two or three years ago I wouldn’t have believed it.

Would I like 50 man weeklies, sure maybe, but 16-20 (what we get) isn’t bad.

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Originally Posted by Soldier of Fortune

What shop has weekly tournaments in Des Moines? Or have you moved away?


This may sound a little elitist but frankly, I like that not everyone can easily afford Legacy/Vintage. Obviously the RL has a lot to do with it. I enjoy playing this game with adults. I’ve noticed the people who play eternal formats are for the most part more gracious, happy to just be playing the game and aren’t such sore losers. Games are far more enjoyable than playing against some try hard trying to q for a pt or whatever. Eternal players don’t seem to take it for granted. I see some of the people that play Standard and Modern and I would hate to deal with some of that behavior.

Legacy isn’t going to die, as a matter of fact, this year has been insane in terms of support from WotC. We have two GP in the US, one in Europe, one in Asia, three Eternal Weekends and countless team events from SCG. Hell, it’s even going to be played in a Pro Tour. If you’d have told me that two or three years ago I wouldn’t have believed it.

Would I like 50 man weeklies, sure maybe, but 16-20 (what we get) isn’t bad.

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I live in Indiana now, I should change my profile. There is a good store in Des Moines, Mayhem. I would check with them, as I haven't been to the store in a while. When you get there, feel free to mention that they owe me sealed pack of Saga. One of their employees (probably former at this point) bet me that Gaea's Cradle was going to get banned in Legacy 4 years ago, which it didn't. It is a funny story, I don't actually expect to get anything.

You are right about the community, and the increased support. I really enjoy the Legacy community. I don't want to stereotype, but there is a difference I have experienced between the Standard community and the Legacy community. I prefer the Legacy crowd, for what it is worth.

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Originally Posted by Deisss

500, even 2000$ card isn't a price tag that make a card "mysterious and hard to get", such price tag aren't high enough for this statement to be true...
Still WAY too many people can afford it if they want. The same as if I want a car I get out, and buy it. Many people can do that, even every month for some of them.
It's just, plainly, expensive. But in no way hard or mysterious.

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Well that is your personal opinion. In my playgroup, still, when we look at Black Lotus, Time Walk, The Abyss etc.. There are still the wow-feeling. That feeling will not come from any reprintable foiled invention Black Lotus or from mass printed five dollar Lotus.

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Originally Posted by raudo

Well that is your personal opinion. In my playgroup, still, when we look at Black Lotus, Time Walk, The Abyss etc.. There are still the wow-feeling. That feeling will not come from any reprintable foiled invention Black Lotus or from mass printed five dollar Lotus.

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That's the difference between people who look at Lotus & Co as a collectible and the players who just want a tournament legal card no matter how it looks.

I don't think that reprinting shitty ass looking, but tournament legal cards for the actual players would affect the feeling you get from looking at a beta copy or it's price.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

That's the difference between people who look at Lotus & Co as a collectible and the players who just want a tournament legal card no matter how it looks.

I don't think that reprinting shitty ass looking, but tournament legal cards for the actual players would affect the feeling you get from looking at a beta copy or it's price.

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Case and point, Birds of Paradise.

If this is really all about playing in a sanctioned, non-proxy tournament, then why can't you "rent" a card for a single event?
This would still "move" cards in a $ positive direction for sellers and players can still attend that big event.

In MTGO, you don't own the cards but you own a digital license to the image or some such nonsense.
If it works for MTGO, then WOTC can "lease" me the physical card, too.

WOTC can monetize this now by doing something similar with any licensed card that is ONLY useable for one event.
It CAN even just be a blank card that says "UNDERGROUND SEA" in block letters.
It doesn't violate the RL but still allows players to play in a sanctioned, non-proxy tournament.

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Originally Posted by ramanujan

1)

He said people can't play sanctioned tournament Legacy. I play in a weekly legacy tournament that allows all proxies. We have the same fun as people playing in sanctioned events. I bring a real deck, some others do as well, and a few go the proxy route. There are many ways to enjoy Magic, from Pro Tours to kitchen tables. The formats are varied and interesting, supported and unsupported (Old School). I actually created a format, designed to eliminate all luck other than 1 coin flip. It was fun. Is it that egregious that there are a handful of useful cards in an ancient format that won't ever be printed again? I don't think so.

2)

Patrick almost certainly has more exposure to peoples opinions about the reserved list than you do. Given his high profile in the community, I'm willing to believe that he is being candid. There is no reasonable way of doing a fact finding mission, admitting that your opinion on the reserved list is highly related to your personal financial situation isn't palatable. If Wizards lifted the restricted list and said each card can be purchased directly from them for 500 dollars per card, would that appease the masses? Suppose Wizards offers to take 450 of the dollars and donate them, in Wizards name, to a charity of your choosing. When I assert this proposed solution of 500 dollar cards available on demand, people gloss over it. Occasionally, people make a few snide remarks regarding the specific cards that have a current price above my made up mark of 500, which is not a clever response.

In my opinion, the primary issue is the cost of dual lands and Power. People don't want to pay the cost for those things, but they want to play Legacy/Vintage. I haven't found an example of someone who dislikes the reserved list and likes the 500 dollar cards on demand solution, which I feel is a good litmus test. From what I have seen, people want inexpensive duals. Inexpensive is usually some cost they personally can afford, but it varies quite a bit based on their situation.

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"Is it that egregious that there are a handful of useful cards in an ancient format that won't ever be printed again? I don't think so."
Good for you?

The "Any card for $500" idea isn't ideal but I grant you that it would be an infinitely better place to be than what we have at the moment

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This may sound a little elitist but frankly, I like that not everyone can easily afford Legacy/Vintage. Obviously the RL has a lot to do with it. I enjoy playing this game with adults. I’ve noticed the people who play eternal formats are for the most part more gracious, happy to just be playing the game and aren’t such sore losers. Games are far more enjoyable than playing against some try hard trying to q for a pt or whatever. Eternal players don’t seem to take it for granted. I see some of the people that play Standard and Modern and I would hate to deal with some of that behavior.

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Hot take: the Legacy / Vintage community is actually worse, because the average mtg player is an immature mega-dork and this doesn't vary with age. A child with stunted social skills is way more excusable than some 40yo with the same behaviours. Anecdotally, the reason why the local YGO/Pokemon players aren't interested in MTG is because it's perceived as a game for awkward neckbeards and it's not hard to see why.

If you're this insecure about playing a game that says "13 years and up" on the packaging or you're so afraid of interacting with people that you won't play tournaments then stay home with your friends and play with proxy cards

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Originally Posted by Fox

Case and point, Birds of Paradise.

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Point gets really driven home when you use basic lands.

Arabian Nights Mountain
Guru Island

No card had been reprinted as often, but yet these printings get triple digit dollar value.

Its nice to see some ideas instead of people praying they abolish the reserve list. This isn't much of a stretch. Vendors already loan out cards and decks, the difference is they have to know the person. They could set it up like any other rental transaction holding a deposit etc. The vendors list the exact decklist on website prior to event, and people would use proxies leading up to the event for deck familiarity.

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Originally Posted by non-inflammable

If this is really all about playing in a sanctioned, non-proxy tournament, then why can't you "rent" a card for a single event?
This would still "move" cards in a $ positive direction for sellers and players can still attend that big event.

In MTGO, you don't own the cards but you own a digital license to the image or some such nonsense.
If it works for MTGO, then WOTC can "lease" me the physical card, too.

WOTC can monetize this now by doing something similar with any licensed card that is ONLY useable for one event.
It CAN even just be a blank card that says "UNDERGROUND SEA" in block letters.
It doesn't violate the RL but still allows players to play in a sanctioned, non-proxy tournament.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

Point gets really driven home when you use basic lands.

Arabian Nights Mountain
Guru Island

No card had been reprinted as often, but yet these printings get triple digit dollar value.

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Maybe I go too far, but one could also make a point about Juzaam and the pseudo reprint which the 2BB 5/5 Sliver was. Regardless, we agree on the base topic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by non-inflammable

WOTC can monetize this now by doing something similar with any licensed card that is ONLY useable for one event.
It CAN even just be a blank card that says "UNDERGROUND SEA" in block letters.
It doesn't violate the RL but still allows players to play in a sanctioned, non-proxy tournament.

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Would you allow me to go one step further? What about if you could 10 bucks extra at registration for a vintage tournament to get handed a sealed pack of such licensed blanks which includes the power 9, 1x Library, 4x Bazaar and 4x workshop?

P.S.: does this technically even violate the RL list at all?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Maybe I go too far, but one could also make a point about Juzaam and the pseudo reprint which the 2BB 5/5 Sliver was. Regardless, we agree on the base topic.



Would you allow me to go one step further? What about if you could 10 bucks extra at registration for a vintage tournament to get handed a sealed pack of such licensed blanks which includes the power 9, 1x Library, 4x Bazaar and 4x workshop?

P.S.: does this technically even violate the RL list at all?

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If they did this with nice looking card stock it would be an amazing way for people to get proxies for Cube/EDH. Have the card say "Only valid for tournament use on 5/31/2018" and then after that it's just a pretty proxy.

Then all the snobby dickheads who care about that kind of thing would still know who to look down on when they play and the "poors" could play whichever decks they thought would perform well instead of budget X.

"Spirit of the Reserved List" hand waving would likely stop that regardless. It applies to tournament legal cards as well. Currently, I think Wizards said that they wouldn't produce World Champs decks again of reserved cards.