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How do you reliably cast your red spells? You have one red source pre moon and if you have a moon on the board you should generally be winning..
Despite prior bitchings about wishes I actually really like living wish in this deck as access to magus of the moon and also needed lands. The two cc shouldn't be played around because you also play goyf and confidant,
Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
I count Eleven, not one. Are you sure you aren't missing a few?Quote:
// Lands
1 [R] Taiga
3 [CST] Swamp (1)
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [IN] Forest (3)
4 [u] Bayou
4 [R] Badlands
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
I'm dumb, I missed the badlands for some reason and I wasn't counting the fetchlands. Sorry...
In addition though, why the finks and why no giant creature or recursion engine. I like tribe elder in the deck as a basic land getter and also don't see bolt as being that effective.
Thanks.
Finks for all the Zoo I see nowadays...Goyf is a giant creature and Stronghold is a recursion engine ;-). Tribe elder would probally be pretty cool to speed up the deck some. Tribal.deck, Zoo, ...I don't see how bolt isn't effective these days. It's very good at beating both of these decks and lately that's all I've been seeing.Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
-Edit: I also like Finks in here for the lifegain when I'm dying to Confidant.
The problem with rock is that's it's a bit too slow to fight some of the faster aggro decks like Zoo and struggles with combo decks. God forbid you vs some stupid rogue deck like Dragon Stompy and randomly loose to Moon effects.
As someone who has played this deck, it just is too weak without some ways to stick around longer.
Also, might I suggest both Finks AND the Elephant?
The strength of any Rock deck seems to rest on the back of pernicious deed as board control and it always should be that way. This is where finks shines to help stabilize the board pre and post deed. It is just the act of resolving and blowing a deed in a timely fashion.
As to previous discussion goyf is not a huge creature anymore and stronghold is not a powerful recursion engine. You could try to get slick with unearth but you have to remember that you want to resolve an early goyf and also blow a deed sometime in the game. Unearth helps recover after a deed and after spot removal, unlimited witnesses can beatdown or chumpblock a game away but I think life from the loam is the superior recursion engine/draw engine for any rock deck.
4 tarmogoyf
3 dark confidant
3 tombstalker
2 terravore
4 life from the loam
4 mox diamond
4 swords to plowshares
3 engineered explosives
4 thoughtsieze
4 hymn to tourach
4 tranquil thicket
4 barren moor
3 bayou
2 savannah
1 scrubland
1 swamp
1 forest
3 bloodstained mire
3 wooded foothills
3 wasteland
Sb
4 gerrards verdict
2 engineered plauge
2 choke
2 ghostly prison
1 enlightened tutor
4 krosan grip
this is my list from the source tourney that is still ongoing. More will follow shortly.
Sorry I didn't get the report of my Armageddon version up. after testing I dedided I liked Armageddon for the deck (record: 13-2). I've actually increased it to 3 and dropped the crucible to 2. I don't seem to have issues with other's creatures and can normally make things go really bad for opponents prior to their threats arriving.
I've also added Exploration which I've never been mad to see, even when I've got a deed in the opener with it. I added it because the original Rock decks accelerated to make deed that much more effective, play fatter cards faster, and thin their decks. I figured they didn't have Top and Bob so I would use them to draw my deck faster and Exploration to speed the deck up (since STE isn't used anymore). I've found that it's still good even with deed since I'm playing crucible and Armageddon. I can deed end of turn. Geddon and play the exploration (5 mana has not been hard on turn 4). If there is a crucible and I geddon Exploration makes it as if you didn't lose a thing.
I have been having issues with Thresh decks that're running a lot of 3 drops (since most of our deck is 3cc's for removal). I got blown out against one that had kept Sower in. I haven't seen that card in a thresh list for about a year. and turn 2 Choke, somehow didn't get there... ?:|
Has anybody (competitive) play tested Blastoderm in the aggro-control version of B/G Rock?
As per Luis Vargas persuasive article pertaining to Loxodon Hierarch, in particular see the following link for details, http://strategy.channelfireball.com/...ry/front-page/ Loxodon is not the best choice for this deck right now (at least not the aggro-control version). Even if I am wrong and it is, he is obviously out of consideration for the newly defined and more aggressive G/B Rock player.
People played Troll Ascetic in Rock because of his untargetable ability. However, his weak frame and substantially high regeneration cost lost him a spot in many recent Rock deck builds.
Baloth not being what he use to be for many Rock players has been abandoned all together. I can't help but think how in this spot removal heavy metagame that derm would be a bad choice; especially with the synergy of eternal witness, pernicious deed and recurring nightmare. A much more efficient clock with target removal immunity seems very decent. Thoughts?
How often does the Bob/tombstalker thing fuck you over?Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
I just realized that this would be the most appropriate thread to get feedback on this list.
What do you guys think of a more aggressive version of the Rock, than can win a good bit faster thanks to Natural Order, but loses access to Deed as a result?
This is the list I have in mind...
4 x Bayou
4 x Windswept Heath
4 x Bloodstained Mire
2 x Forest
2 x Scrubland
1 x Savannah
1 x Swamp
1 x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 x Volrath's Stronghold
4 x Noble Hierarch
4 x Tarmogoyf
3 x Eternal Witness
3 x Kitchen Finks
2 x Birds of Paradise
2 x Tombstalker
2 x Doran, the Siegetower
1 x Progenitus
4 x Thoughtseize
4 x Hymn to Tourach
4 x Vindicate
4 x Natural Order
3 x Swords to Plowshares
It's not as slow as traditional Rock decks, actually, just because it can rather consistently drop down a BoP turn one, disrupt turn two, and play a Natural Order turn three for a five turn clock. Or alternatively, it can plop down a Tarmogoyf turn two, disrupt turn 3, and play a Tombstalker turn 4, and easily win by turn 6.
Yes, this approach has poor synergy with Deed. But do you think such a list has potential? It does speed up the deck a good bit. What would you change in the list?
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...t=14373&page=3
actually we have a seperate thread for natural order rock. your aproach might be interesting for that thread i think
Well my list is playing 3 colors, and pretty much all of the exact same staples of The Rock as every other list, with the exception of Natural Order.
Natural Order doesn't inherently change the Rock's gameplan at all. It's just a different threat, similar to those lists that opt to play Lord of Extinction versus those lists that opt to play Spiritmonger. That wouldn't justify needing a new thread. So I don't see why the card can't be discussed here.
Does anyone have any commentary on the list 3 posts above this one.
I really think those changes are well worth considering for just about every rock build, whether you play an aggro build or a more controllish build.
Noble Hierarch is fantastic. In addition to providing the same acceleration that BoP provides, it also lets you win Goyf mirrors, and generally makes all your creatures better. It does produce 2/3rd of the colors, the inability to generate black is a small price to pay for providing universal pump.
And Natural Order is a ridiculously good fit in The Rock. There simply isn't a bigger bomb out there. If you play disruption to clear the way for NO, it almost always wins you the game singlehandedly. There's very few cards out there that for 4 mana that guarentee victory within two turns, and Natural Order is the only one of them legal in legacy that's not reliant on storm. Seriously, so few decks play Wrath that it's practically a nonissue.
If you want, you can cut Doran from my list above for a couple of Deeds, but I am perfectly happy with not playing any Deeds maindeck and being able to bring them in from the sideboard against the few swarm aggro decks still relevent in legacy.
Having stuff like Doran and Tombstalker that blue decks are pretty much forced to waste their countermagic on makes it much easier to resolve NO the next turn.
When evaluating Deed, you have to consider that Deed, unlike most other cards, eats up two turns of mana, not just one. So it has a much higher bar to clear for inclusion than other 3cc cards like Vindicate and Maelstrom Pulse and such. When evaluating Deed, it should be considered a 5 mana or a 6 mana card, because that's how much mana you're going to be sinking into it in most situations.
I'm perfectly fine having to bring in 4 Deeds and the 4th Kitchen Finks from the sideboard and other tools against aggro on game two, but not designing my maindeck to beat swarm aggro.
Deed was just absolutely incredible in The Rock before Tarmogoyf. Back then, the only creatures that The Rock played that are less than 3 mana were 4 Birds of Paradise and creatures that The Rock wanted to have killed asap like Veteran Explorer and Sakura Tribe Elder. That was a situation where Deed almost always gives you a massive amount of card advantage.
The build of The Rock I posted above plays...
6 1cc creatures
4 2cc creatures
8 3cc creatures
The only decks in the format that play a larger number of low casting cost permanents are swarm aggro.
But this is all just one person's opinion. If you don't share, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that and you should play Deed along side Natural Order in the build above. Deed and NO go great together. As do Deed and Tombstalker. So the card fits very well into the above list.
I was just wondering if there is a solid argument to be made as to why Noble Hierarch and Natural Order aren't good enough to be staples in The Rock.
On paper I would suggest changing Doran into Stalker. You have enough green critters to support Order and it seems like it's just going to be a little clunky. or even switching both for Bob. I wouldn't worrie about the life loss right now since finks and other people swords will get it back up there (unless their not playing it) and you're creatures look to arrive faster than their's. But, you don't have a draw of any kind outside of 1 per turn luck. It would be nice to draw more than that.
To be honest though, I don't have a say on the idea of Natural Order. I don't have access to them right now. I am still a fan of Armageddon in the deck but people have shot the idea down as it isn't one sided. I've been looking into that idea more and haven't given your way of trying it a chance yet. I'm going to finish looking into mine and then I can try and catch up to yours (unless it's a dead argument at that time).
Thank you for the suggestions.
Tombstalker really sucks in multiples though. And without Rituals, this card doesn't fill up your yard nearly as fast as Sui Black decks. Playing 3 is certainly not out of the question.
Actually, playing 3-4 Dark Confidant instead of Tombstalker/Doran/Eternal Witness is something that I've been strongly considering. If I did that, I would certainly play that 4th Kitchen Finks as well. Just the thought of accidently revealing a Tombstalker or Progenitus is terrifying, but I'm sure it wouldn't happen that often. Even revealing a NO could be bad though.
I would definately play atleast 1 Doran in the deck. It's nice to have something decent to grab with NO, if you accidently draw your Progenitus and have no means to discard it or something, and it's all around a great creature.
I wouldn't worry about flipping the NO. I play with x6 4cc spells so I hit it a lot. Most of the time it doesn't matter. The 4th Finks is definitely a good idea if you have the open spot. I would be all for an Empiryal Archangel instead of the Doran as it will stall/win some game and will also kill a lot of the creatures in the format Not to mention, it can't be targeted. I understand that without a Bird or Hierarch you need a blue land but,your Opps are left with Wrath as their only real answer.
I'm always astounded at how many versions there are of this deck. Well, here is my current build. It's a (gasp) mid-range control version of The Rock.
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
3x Kitchen Finks
4x Eternal Witness
4x Pernicious Deed
3x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Shriekmaw
1x Profane Command
2x Recurring Nightmare
2x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Extirpate
4x Bayou
4x Polluted Delta
3x Treetop Village
1x Volrath's Stronghold
2x Forest
8x Swamp
SB:
2x Krosan Grip
3x Choke
2x Extirpate
3x Diabolic Edict
2x Cabal Therapy
3x Engineered Plague
I do well against Counter/Top, various forms of control, and combo as a result of the discard and maindeck Extirpates. I do well against aggro as a result of Kitchen Finks, Pernicious Deed, and other removal. I have a good late game as a result of Recurring Nightmare. Between Dark Confidant, SDT, Eternal Witness, and Recurring Nightmare I generate some serious card advantage, enough to compete with most blue decks.
I'm interested to know what people think of the list. Thanks everyone.
Deleted.
I'm interested in building a Rock deck. Couple questions:
Is Spiritmonger good anymore? I can get a couple practically for free and I remember the good ol' Invasion block days with this guy. (Thinking of trying him out to save a few bucks at first, then replacing it with something else if he doesn't work out well.)
In a BGW list, what is a good proportion of duals and fetches? If I get playsets of the BW and BG fetches from Zen, that should be good on fetches, right?