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Just looking through the various plays that people note, in addition to some of the tournament reports, and it doesn't seem that people tutor for Anger all that often.
If this because:
a) no one actually does all that often
b) you are doing so, but not mentioning it because it is always the first play
While I understand it depends upon the game state, what is generally the first 2-3 tutor targets (amongst the most popular build and that which still includes mirror entity)?
What do you guys think about playing one Dryad Arbor md in the NO Versions?
It is an additional sacc outlet and isn't too sucky with Anger.
It's a solid list. I opt to run Goyfs instead of Vanquisher, and a Entity kill, buts that's just details. The logical conclusion was to cut the Messenger, and I haven't been missing him at al. (-3 Vanquisher, -1 WRP, -3 Messenger, +1 NO, +1 Entity, +3 Goyf, +2 Symbiote, thus) How is the Archdruid/Champion/Perfect splash so far? I made the same choice as you did, but didn't test a single game with it yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawdes
About the sideboard, I found Pithing Needle to solve every problem I had:
4 Peedle
3 Grip
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Choke
2 Canonists
or any other configuration of those cards.
@ Dryad Arbor: I hate 1 or 2landers with an Arbor in it, and am never short on creatures.
I don't know well the deck, but it looks interesting to use Quirion Ranger to transform a fetch into a creature for survival. It's also obviously a free chumpblocker with quirion ranger and a way to have something to sacrifice to NO.Quote:
Originally Posted by EaD
People usually just forget to mention it, as it is second nature for survival players.Quote:
Originally Posted by arebennian
Anger isn't always the first thing you tutor for, but if you're tutoring things and have an unused mana sitting around, it's probably a good idea to grab it.
In this deck, if you have survival, you get squee, then anger, than anything else. the only exception is if you would be hit with lethal and are short on mana, then you get a chumpblocker.
What do you guys think of Goblin Sharpshooter as swarm removal, or is Masticore better since it doubles as an individual threat?
I do not agree on cutting Sylvan Messenger. I tested further yesterday again against Eva Green, White Staxx, and some other decent aggro decks (such as other tribals). I feel that the CA/gas that Sylvan Messenger gives is priceless against other aggro decks and is really necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elf_Ascetic
When we come to the discussion relating to whether we should run goyf/vanquisher, I think it's pretty clear that with a messenger build, you're opting for elves, and the messenger still destroys opposing goyfs and even really big Countryside Crusher/terravores. But either way, it's just a question about taste. I myself don't like running goyfs since people often tend to make my goyfs small. If we're running Messenger, we certainly can't run massive non-elf cards thus I only run 3 NO, which I felt was enough.
And now we come to the Lord configuration. I do love it, but sometimes I even wish that I ran more champions (read 10 lords or so), but only when I have a matchup against forests. But it's not a serious problem since you can always tutor for it with SotF if it's needed. The new Elvish Archdruid is really good, the games I've tested (that I actually get to play magic, read not vs. combo) he's been wild. And if he's paired with quirion ranger, there's not stopping if you topdeck a messenger. You can get really wicked draws.
I don't really think that people understood my last post about splashing white, I've tried the combo matchups with proxies like Teegs, canonists etc. and it doesn't make that big of a deal since it always results in it being countered/bounced and the go for the win. At most, it slows them down one turn.
I feel that the elf deck shouldn't devote x slots against combo in the board since even postboard, it's a really unfavourable matchup. I'd rather have a board that's solid against the rest of the field.
This far I've only won 2 games against TEPS/Ad N fair and square. The other wins have been him killing himself with Ad N due to my elves netting 1-5 crucial life.
I like the new lord alot, I'm playing 4 messnger with 4 perfect, 3 champions, and 3 archdruid, and the ability to swarm and overpower is unreal.
Hey everyone I'm new to the site, and I stumbled upon it when trying to find deck ideas for making my elf deck better, which I used to use Tribal Forcemage and Gempalm as the kill cards, when I found a link here, and saw these survival decks and decided to look deeper into it, and make a Survival NO deck of my own. My current meta-game consists of 1 other person who has about 3 or 4 different legacy decks. He plays enchantress, belcher, white weenie, and BW poop on elf deck I guess you could call it. Anyways I tried to build my deck around those decks and build it around the top decks in legacy. So I guess here is my list.
Lands x18
1x Gaea's Cradle
2x Wasteland
2x Forest
3x Wooded Foothills
3x Taiga
3x Savannah
4x Windswept Heath
Creatures x34
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
1x Mirror Entity
1x Progenitus
1x Anger
2x Thornweald Archer
2x Viridian Zealot
3x Wirewood Symbiote
3x Quirion Ranger
3x Tarmogoyf
3x Sylvan Messenger
3x Llanowar Elves
3x Fyndhorn Elves
4x Priest of Titania
4x Imperious Perfect
Other Spells x8
4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Natural Order
Sideboard x15
1x Caller of the Claw?
2x Tormod's Crypt/Relic of Progenitus
2x Thorn of Amethyst
3x Choke
3x Krosan Grip
4x Pithing Needle
I have been thinking about taking the Cradle out to add another Wasteland or forest. The Wasteland because well it's Wasteland, and the forest because it avoids being wastelanded. Also the sideboard just needs one card changed which is Caller of the Claw, because most of the top decks in Legacy if any don't run any massive sweep effects besides Pyroclasm, which hurts lotttts. Please just give me any suggestions you have on the deck to make it better. Thanks.
I think Tarmogoyf fills the hole very fine. I really like the not-being-an-elf thing, and am certainly not unhappy with him. However, with 3 Archemages added to the list, Sylvan Messenger is probably more playable now. I'll test it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawdes
NO is the random I win button. It feels very suboptimal to run it only three times. The addition of the Archmage only makes NO better.
Gaddock and that other hatebear can slow combo down, and that's their main goal. Of course, you won't win on Gaddock beatings, but it's the best you have. You could consider scooping to combo, but Gaddock still has use against landstill and other shit. I would consider this list. At least, that is what I'll be testing for now:
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Priest of Titania
2 Quirion Ranger
1 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Imperious Perfect
1 Elvish Champion
3 Elvish Archdruid
3 Wren-Run Vanquisher
1 Wren-Run Packmaster
3 Sylvan Messenger
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
6 Forest
SB
3 Gaddock Teeg
1 Savannah
1 Harmonic Sliver
3 Choke
3 Krosan Grip
4 Pithing Needle
hard to cast teeg with that list.
No savannah md or do you really fear waste that much ?
Why do you run 1 Wirewood Symbiote without at least 1 Mirror Entity?
I don't really think that he is worth it without ME.
Survival Elves is probably the deck that gains the most from M10. First, it got the best card with Archdruid. Second, it's maybe the only deck with Ichorid that could take some mana burns. Now, you stop brainstorming how many manas you want, you brainstorm how to optimize the mana you produce.
I started to play this deck only with M10, so I'm a bit newbie on it. My take is that with 10+ lords, you're no longer afraid of plague and even pyroclasm is not that much a big threat. Plus you're able to provide hi CA with both messenger and survival. With my list, in goldfish, I go off generally turn 3 or 4 and I kill either in the same turn or the turn after. And my list is built to have consistency, so...
When you can kill that fast, I don't see the point in playing the NO combo, which pollutes your hands, and makes your plays risky against blue based decks.
Here's my list :
Survival Toolbox 11:
4 Survival of the Fittest (tutor + CA, but mainly because you tutor messenger with it, once in play the game usually does not last long enough to make CA via squee or genesis, which I've cut)
1 Anger (instant kill)
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob (long term CA with Survival, I'm not even sure he's really needed, but not playing it would probably be an error)
1 Magus of the moon (rnadomly a gg guy)
4 Wirewood Symbiote (elvish protection + extra mana + extra draw + extra tokens)
Elves 32:
4 Llanowar Elves (early mana boost #1)
4 Fyndhorn Elves (early mana boost #2)
3 Priest of Titania (plenty of mana)
3 Quirion Ranger (land saver + extra mana + extra tokens)
4 Imperious Perfect (lord + plenty of elves)
3 Elvish Champion (lord + almost nothing, still a lord)
4 Elvish Archdruid (lord + plenty of mana)
4 Sylvan Messenger (CA engine of the deck)
1 Birchlore Ranger (ensures the W or R mana with survival for mirror entity or magus)
1 Mirror Entity (for the combo or inexpected wins, I may want to raise its number)
1 Viridian Zealot (preferred to shaman for it's ability to deal with counterbalance and to Wickerbought Elder because it's an elf, however I may change my mind)
Lands 17
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
5 Forest
2 Savannah
It has 8 CA cards with survival (+X) and messenger (+2 in average), 11 lords and 32 mana producers, 7 untap effects (which may act as mana producers too or CA), some killer cards such as Magus or Mirror Entity. The ability of Imperious perfect to put into play 4 elves every turn is impressive. The champion is clearly the weak lord in this build, but it still is a good card.
You vastly underestimate Natural Order. You're not always going to be able to set up your ME kill, especially without Survival. Natural Order doesn't need Survival in the battlefield, and Progenitus doesn't care about StP or burn. This is what makes NO a great strategy.Quote:
When you can kill that fast, I don't see the point in playing the NO combo, which pollutes your hands, and makes your plays risky against blue based decks.
Also, NO rarely pollutes your hand since you're reliably able to have a green creature to sacrifice.
I've played a lot of decks with NO, so I don't underestimate it. NO is probably a good SB card, but MD, when pyroclasms are still not entered, I think it's generally weak. The deck I propose definitely does not need survival to win. It needs survival or messenger to make insane CA. If you have neither one or the other, then you probably have 2 or 3 lords, and you can realiably beat your opponent out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawon
You underestimate NO in this deck.
The cost of NO in other decks are much higher, because you have to sac a Goyf or something. Who gives a fuck about that 1/1 for G that you're saccing..
The benefit of NO is much stronger then in other decks as well: NO says you win, and this deck can run out of gas. It's nice to have 4 random Red Buttons sitting in your library. (or preferably, in your hand). The scenario you're describing isn't as sure as you think it is. What if you're opponent forces your survival, and sends your champion farming? You'll be just left with 2 or 3 1/1's...
If you admit you're new to this deck, please take some advice from these guys, they know what they're talking about. So don't make any inventive choices based on nothing.
you win the first games with natural order against a lot of control decks (loam, rock,... ). messenger and survival are good options but are disruption-sensitive.. The deck has with natural order more win-conditions. With loads of messengers your survival options are a little bit stronger, but the deck isn't as consistent as the NO-build.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maveric78f
Then you haven't been playing against decks like aggro loam and other decks that just simply rapes your elves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maveric78f
I don't know how many times my elves which at the time are 2/2 or 3/3 keep staring at a way bigger creature like goyf, tombstalker or wickedly fueled Crusher/Terravores. The only solution you have to those creatures are the Vanquisher's in a deck without NO/prog.
And if you resolve a turn two or three progenitus (which I often do when I have natural order) it's a two turn clock that can't be dealt with in a elf deck since you probably have more elves along with him so that he can't be sacrificed. You always have little green men to sac. for NO and besides, it's hardly never a bad topdeck.
He's the bomb, and ofc you don't want to be clogged with many NO's, that's why I run 3 and I'm very comfortable with that. It's a failsafe win against most decks and necessary against others.
When I played against Eva Green, my lords felt the taste of StP, Vindicate and much more hate. To resolve a 10/10 beatstick instead of having three to four 1/1 elves seems like a better clock against a deck that runs tombstalkers and goyfs that easily outraces you.