[Deck] Dredge

Entomb is a bad discard outlet and a bad dredger rolled into one, with a few other random applications (gets Narcomoeba, Ichorid, Bridge from Below, Cabal Therapy, etc.)

It might be worth testing, but I wouldn't know what to cut for it. The deck is pretty tight as is, and you can't rely on having mana past your first few turns.

I'd drop to 2 Dread Returns, 1 Deep Analysis and maybe 1 Hypnotist (if you're running 2) or a Thug.

You can tutor for DA in hands with LED+Land+Entomb, and tutor the missing piece (Dread Return, DA, GGT, Bridge, Ichorid, Therapy, whatever) in hands without LED.

I doubt it's an automatic 4of or that better than pitch-discard or Careful Study.
Testing is due, though.

I dont know about entomb.

Isnt this deck to situational to really know were to search for in the early turns.(I mean, if you want a dredger, most of the times coliseum, breaktrough, led, imp are doing the same thing better. And in turn one, it only slows you down to search for a bridge, dread return and stuff.)

I can imagine its good when you are on turn 3/4 and you still have a hand/mana, but then you have to play more controllish. I think he would be better in ledless ichorid then in this build.

I'm still curious about the testing results.

I never gave a f*ck abount Unmask, it's great against blue but against everything else it's so mediocre... and targetting yourself is ok but clearly not optimal.

Now, Entomb might not be the most aggressive combo card out there, but it's very versatile. It just fetches the combo part that you're missing.

Ok, time to get back on track. First on Entomb. I don't think it has a place in LED Ichorid, though it might in LED-less. All of the reasons have already been stated by Kuma, TheRock, and Jaynel. Testing could prove me wrong, but this is my initial impression.

My latest list from the Charlotte 5K.

While two Hypos was the wrong call for that meta, they are still better than FKZ overall. The sideboard was absolutely perfect. Except for a slightly increased vulnerability to Leyline, it did everything I wanted it to both at our Friday night tournament, and at the 5K. In creating and testing it, I kept a log of my sideboarding. From this, I have written what I believe is the most accurate, and complete sideboard guide for the deck. I've decided to share it here. As always, all changes are from the original list, and all Game Twos are considered on the draw, and Game Three on the play. It's not a guarantee, as some of these matches have less testing than I'd like. But most are dead on, regardless of how they look.

CounterTop: G2: -3 Unmask, -4 LED, -2 DA, -1 Dread
+2 Tribe, +3 Grudge, +1 City, +4 Chain(many are running Leyline as well)

G3: -2 DA, -4 LED, -1 Coliseum
+1 Unmask, +2 Grudge, +1 City, +2 Tribe

Merfolk: G2: -3 Unmask, -4 LED, -2 DA, -1 Hypno
+2 Tribe, +3 Firestorm, +3 Grudge, +1 Chosen, +1 City

G3: -2 DA, -4 LED, -1 Hypno
+1 Unmask, +2 Tribe, +1 City, +2 Grudge, +1 Chosen

Tendrils: G2/G3: -1 DA, -1 Ichorid
+1 Unmask, +1 Chosen

Eva Green/Suicide: G2: -3 Unmask, -1 Dread, -1 DA
+4 Chain, +1 City

G3: -2 DA, -1 Dread, -1 PImp, -1 LED, -1 Therapy
+4 Chain, +1 City, +1 Unmask

Goblins: G2: -4 LED, -2 DA, -3 Unmask
+2 Tribe, +3 Grudge, +1 City, +2 Firestorm, +1 Chosen
(if Leyline: -3 Unmask, -2 DA, -4 LED, +3 Firestorm, +4 Chain, +1 City, +1 Chosen)

G3: -2 DA, -4 LED, -1 Hypno, -1 Dread
+1 Unmask, +2 Tribe, +1 City, +3 Grudge, +1 Chosen

Landstill/Walker: G2: -4 LED, -2 DA, -3 Unmask
+3 Grudge, +2 Tribe, +1 City, +3 Chain

G3: -2 DA, -4 LED
+1 Unmask, +3 Grudge, +2 Tribe

Goyf Sligh/Zoo: G2: -2 DA, -4 LED, -3 Unmask, -1 Hypno
+1 Chosen, +3 Grudge, +2 Tribe, +3 Firestorm, +1 City (if Burn, switch Unmasks for Firestorms)

G3: -1 DA, -1 Ichorid
+1 Unmask, +1 Chosen

Lands: G2:-3 Unmask, -1 Bridge, -1 Dread
+4 Chain, +1 City

G3: -2 DA, -1 PImp, -1 Dread
+4 Chain, +1 Unmask

Affinity: G2: -4 LED, -2 DA, -1 Hypno, -3 Unmask
+3 Grudge, +3 Firestorm, +2 Tribe, +1 City, +1 Chosen

G3: -2 DA, -1 PImp, -1 Ichorid
+2 Grudge, +1 Unmask, +1 City

Painter: G2: -2 DA, -4 LED
+3 Grudge, +1 City, +2 Firestorm

G3: -2 DA, -4 LED
+1 City, +1 Unmask, +3 Grudge, +1 Tribe

Stax: G2: -3 Unmask, -1 Hypno, -2 DA, -1 LED
+1 City, +3 Grudge, +3 Firestorm

G3: -2 DA, -2 LED, -1 Ichorid
+1 Unmask, +1 City, +3 Grudge

Elves: -4 LED, -3 Unmask, -1 Hypno, -2 DA
+3 Firestorm, +1 City, +1 Chosen, +2 Tribe, +3 Grudge

G3: -1 Ichorid, -1 DA
+1 Unmask, +1 Chosen

RGBSA: G2: -2 DA, -1 Dread, -1 Hypno, -1 PImp, -1 LED
+4 Chain, +2 Firestorm

G3:-1 DA (if Leyline: -2 DA, -1 PImp, -1 Ichorid, -1 Dread)
+1 Unmask (if Leyline: +4 Chain)

I'll be happy to answer any direct questions, and you're welcome.

Do you see how many times you're boarding out LED?

Does Bloodghast have a place in here? As Narcomoeba #5-whatever?

LED is pretty bad against Aggro post board. Going all in and losing a bunch of stuff to Crypt already sucks and coupled with their fast clock you probably won't recover. Firestorm is a much better discard outlet in that matchup.

Also... damn that's a lot of work many people won't have to do figuring out how to board. Excellent work Parcher! Very comprehensive.

This sire, will even be very helpful for most of the experienced Ichorid players out there. Thank you for this sideboarding guide. I will give your exact build another try in testing and see if I can fight through hate as good or even better as with my personal build.

Good work!

Thanks Parcher for the matchup stuff, it'll really help in the future when I play Dredge.

@ everyone, is Gargadon still viable here? I have my playset, and *can* make 4 slots in the board.

I'm still having some troubles playing this deck, and it starts with getting bad hands and spills over to not being able to deal with a card like Tormod's Crypt. Having CoV helps, but against heavy countermagic, it is really hard to finally bounce the Crypt and even get going. I get hosed out of some games. Handwise, I'm trying to follow the "rubric," so to speak, from the first post, and I guess my question is, (on the play or on the draw, I know it's different), where do I draw the line when I mulligan? How far can I go if I don't find a viable hand?

This deck is pretty polarizing for me, but it's probably because I'm still learning, and it's really still hit-or-miss for me.

@Morbid
I still play 4 GGargadon in my SB, I like them.

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Originally Posted by alderon666

I never gave a f*ck abount Unmask, it's great against blue but against everything else it's so mediocre... and targetting yourself is ok but clearly not optimal.

Now, Entomb might not be the most aggressive combo card out there, but it's very versatile. It just fetches the combo part that you're missing.

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The only "combo" part that belongs in your grave is a Dredger. If you go Entomb -> Dredger, that means that you have no other way to get a Dredger into your grave (otherwise, the other play is probably better). So when you dredge 6 and won't find a 2nd dredger, you're screwed.

Entomb -> Bridge / Ichorid is most of the time suboptimal, because you need your starting 7(/6/5...) to start dredging as fast as possible (and not to Entomb for Bridges/Ichorids). After this, you want your Bridges/Ichorids in your grave, and this will go automatically, so running cards to do it, is a waste of your slots.

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Originally Posted by Morbid-

@ everyone, is Gargadon still viable here? I have my playset, and *can* make 4 slots in the board.

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I really don't like them, this is what I wrote about it in my tourney report from 1 page back (and a game to show how bad GG can be)

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Originally Posted by dlevsApiJ

G2: He mulls, I keep my 7 (PImp, Dread Return, Breakthrough, GG (Greater Gargadon), Gemstone Mine, Witness, GGT). He drops his Mountain and Tormod’s Crypt. I go Mine -> GG. He plays a Chain Lightning and passes. GG goes to 9 counters and I draw something irrelevant. I tap my mine for a PImp. On his turn, he burns my PImp. I respond with discarding my GGT, but I forget to sac my PImp to GG ;\ (because I never play GG anymore (I think he is very bad (I will explain at the bottem), and play Tireless Tribe in his play atm)). He sacs his Crypt to remove my Dredger and PImp, and drops his second Crypt (damn, and he only plays 3 ;s…). On my turn, the only think what happens, is that GG loses a counter (8). I pass, take damage from an Magma Jet, and get the turn back. Again, I can do nothing else as changing the note of GG to 7. He plays Marauders on his turn. I draw an Undiscovered Paradise (after GG goes to 6) and play it. I cast Moeba and passes. He plays Grim Lavamancer and attacks with his Marauders. I block with my Moeba and sac it to GG (5). He gives the turn to me. Paradise goes back to my hand and GG goes to 4. Now I play my Paradise again and I pass the turn. Marauders dies and I take 1 damage (I go to 13). He plays his stupid Goyf, who is 5/6, and attacks with Lavamancer. On my turn, GG loses a counter, going to 3, and I play an topdecked PImp. On his turn, he burns my PImp with his Lavamancer (GG -> 2) and attacks with Goyf (I go to 7 lifes). He plays another Marauders (6 life) and passes the turn. On my upkeep, GG goes to only 1 counter. I play my topdecked Mine and tap it (Paradise is in my hand) for a Breakthrough with x=0. I draw 4 cards and discard Eternal Witness, Breakthrough, Dread Return, Narcomoeba, Cabal Therapy, Undiscovered, City of Brass, Ichorid, Ichorid and Chosen. He activated his second Crypt (Goyf becomes 4/5). I pass. When he is going to his attack, I sac mine to GG. It comes into play. He taps a Mounain for Bolt, and I can’t survive this attack anymore..

...

4 GG in the sb: I really don’t see how this card is good against Crypt/Relic. Ok, you get a fat-gut. But after many turns, and he doesn’t have evasion. 1 Goyf + other creature can block him.. STP kills him. FOW counters him. Ofcourse, you have Therapy against those cards, but against a Crypt/Relic, you wont have use of Therapy that much.. So GG is at his best when your oppo doesn’t have Crypt/Relic (Moeba/Thug-tricks also wont work that good with an Crypt/Relic against you). I want a hate cards, that doesn’t lose a part of his strength when the card it is used to hate against, is played. Or do I see it wrong and play GG wrong? I play Tireless Tribe instead of GG now, and 4 PImp + 3 Tribe + 2 Ancient Grudge does answer Crypt/Relic pretty good.

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Jared, I really don't want to turn this into a LED or Not thread though I do like your build of the deck. I see your point, and I obviously agree with it, since I'm switching Tribes for LEDs in matches when I expect Crypt or Relic. In Game Ones, and in games where you won't see either hate card however, LED is proven to be a better version. I don't mind riding the fence post-board with it's first game win percentages.

Gargadon is great in a Control and Aggro-Control heavy meta. Aggro is heavily on the rise, and Combo to go along with it. So Gargadon currently loses his value. I'm sure individual metagames vary accordingly.

Entomb seems fine as a 1-shot that finds Grave-Troll, and can find other stuff like various Flashback spells. Phantasmagorian seems like tech, but that eats an additional slot, and I think Entomb would only be an additional discard outlet...

I played Parchers 75 today at our monthly Hassloch tournament and went 4-1-1. Pretty much my average performance, but the boarding plans and the deck itself are just insane.

But I was mising boarding plans for Tempo Thresh, Aggro Loam, Rock-ish decks and Stupid Red Burn although I could somehow figure it out by myself by comparing the decks' concepts with the ones in the list. It really is raw power.
But i felt kinda nerdy because I printed the list out and had to take a look everytime when i was SBing. Better gotta memorize them.

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Originally Posted by Adan

But i felt kinda nerdy because I printed the list out and had to take a look everytime when i was SBing. Better gotta memorize them.

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Doesn't this qualify as "outside assistance"?

...I could be wrong, they might have changed the rules, but I distinctly remember getting second place at States last year because I did this shit, not knowing it was illegal, and got a match loss ruled against me. (I hadn't played competitive MtG in over ten years)

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Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght

Doesn't this qualify as "outside assistance"?

...I could be wrong, they might have changed the rules, but I distinctly remember getting second place at States last year because I did this shit, not knowing it was illegal, and got a match loss ruled against me. (I hadn't played competitive MtG in over ten years)

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Nope, there is this regulation which says that you may take notes into the match and look at them between the rounds, but not while playing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adan

Nope, there is this regulation which says that you may take notes into the match and look at them between the rounds, but not while playing.

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That's exactly what I did. I was running R/W Kithkin (before most people realized Ajani Vengeant was good, I might add), and I came up with a sick-ass, although complicated sideboard plan to wreck U/b Faeries.

After winning G1, I pulled out my notebook and was like "Time to look at my super secret tech," and the judges were like, "Whoa there pal, match loss."

It didn't make me feel any better that my opponent was an absolute fucking prick. Go ahead and look up 2008 Mississippi State Champs deck-lists, if you want a sense of how likely I would have been to win G2. My build slaughtered fucking Faerie decks... I coulda been a contender!!

The regulation regarding notes is very recent, so it would have been outside assistance when you did it. It's okay now, however.

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Originally Posted by Brizzle

The regulation regarding notes is very recent, so it would have been outside assistance when you did it. It's okay now, however.

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Ah, word. Hmm... I'd like to think WotC heard about my woeful story and was like, "That kid's list was sick; he should have won."

Anyhow, take a look at the deck-lists, if you feel like it: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck_s...%20Mississippi

I think you'll probably agree I would have won the match if not for my bone-headed-ness about the outside assistance rules.