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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
So how about that, 'Standard is WAI MORE EXPENSIVE THAN LEGACY?!!' argument now? Basically this is the reason to beware the expansion of Legacy events en masse and why you couldn't have a truly dedicated tournament scene all over the place. Look at the price increases due to just the dozen or so tournaments SCG is running along with the announcement of two GP's this year. Ridiculous.
FWIW though, if you sell Goyfs now, you'll probably be able to pick them up for cheaper at the end of Extended season. There's still a far larger supply of those than Duals or FOW's or what have you. Right now they're only the price they are because players in two major formats are using them at the same time. Oh, plus it's fucking Goyf.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Haven't posted here for a while..
Anyway, the analogy that legacy costs more than a few years of standard is missing one major point about value in legacy. While it is true that a quality legacy deck costs more than a year of standard and drafts, it is worth noting that after that year, the value of the standard cards will have plummeted significantly. Over the same period, the legacy deck will have gained value; or at the very least, held the same value (unlikely scenario). We can all agree that, barring some reprints, the value of legacy staples will never drop.
The "legacy > a year of T2" analogy, it should be "legacy = legacy + a year of T2".:wink:
While I agree that the price of admission to legacy has gone up significantly, one can recoup some of that cost when s/he leaves legacy :cool:
Also, in Legacy vs Vintage, Legacy has a huge meta of numerous archetypes with lots of strategies and counter-strategies in various colours. Also, any tiered or even fringe-tier deck can have a shot at winning. The meta shifts significantly from tournament to tournament as reported in the SCG articles. This sort of variety ensures new innovation and prevents any stalemate in legacy.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
plus_ten
Haven't posted here for a while..
Anyway, the analogy that legacy costs more than a few years of standard is missing one major point about value in legacy. While it is true that a quality legacy deck costs more than a year of standard and drafts, it is worth noting that after that year, the value of the standard cards will have plummeted significantly. Over the same period, the legacy deck will have gained value; or at the very least, held the same value (unlikely scenario). We can all agree that, barring some reprints, the value of legacy staples will never drop.
The "legacy > a year of T2" analogy, it should be "legacy = legacy + a year of T2".:wink:
While I agree that the price of admission to legacy has gone up significantly, one can recoup some of that cost when s/he leaves legacy :cool:
Also, in Legacy vs Vintage, Legacy has a huge meta of numerous archetypes with lots of strategies and counter-strategies in various colours. Also, any tiered or even fringe-tier deck can have a shot at winning. The meta shifts significantly from tournament to tournament as reported in the SCG articles. This sort of variety ensures new innovation and prevents any stalemate in legacy.
sigh. Nobody is missing anything. Yes, if you drop a huge amount of money into the format you can get it back. Yay. That's hardly a selling point when you're asking for that sort of money to be thrown in. And Standard is the same way in the sense that you can sell out / trade off all your stuff before the end of a given T2 format for at least 80% value if you're paying attention. The only people who get fucked on Standard are the ones who buy everything, fail to win or do anything of note with all those cards and hold onto for way too long and the other ones are the ones who just don't give a shit (aka: mostly casuals that play FNM's and local t2 tourneys for kicks).
I'll stop there since this discussion has been had a ton of times before. My main point was that the expansion of Legacy events and dealers realizing they can make a ton of cash by raising prices by hoarding are going to make life very miserable for Legacy players looking to expand in the format and newcomers alike. Only the people that own everything or want to sell out are going to be happy.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Artowis
sigh. Nobody is missing anything. Yes, if you drop a huge amount of money into the format you can get it back. Yay. That's hardly a selling point when you're asking for that sort of money to be thrown in. And Standard is the same way in the sense that you can sell out / trade off all your stuff before the end of a given T2 format for at least 80% value if you're paying attention. The only people who get fucked on Standard are the ones who buy everything, fail to win or do anything of note with all those cards and hold onto for way too long and the other ones are the ones who just don't give a shit (aka: mostly casuals that play FNM's and local t2 tourneys for kicks).
I'll stop there since this discussion has been had a ton of times before. My main point was that the expansion of Legacy events and dealers realizing they can make a ton of cash by raising prices by hoarding are going to make life very miserable for Legacy players looking to expand in the format and newcomers alike. Only the people that own everything or want to sell out are going to be happy.
But I think it is a selling point for some people, like me. You said it exactly, you have to pretty much know your stuff and hustle a bit to move your Standard cards to turn a profit or not lose. Legacy, you have to . . . wait. For example, I bought IA and AP painlands for about $5 ea. and now they are shit. I picked up duals at $10 and now they are gold. Yeah, if people are smart and are savvy they can flip the M10 duals without losing and even perhaps gain, but that takes much more time and energy than putting out for a dual land that will never go down. Same could be said for something like Cryptic Command vs. Force of Will. No one is saying it's impossible to keep ahead of the money game in Standard; instead, that for the vast majority of Legacy staples (hate to use that loaded word, but...) all you have to do is wait and they appreciate. Kind of the difference between most cars vs. real estate. The general trend is depreciation vs. appreciation. Yeah there are exceptions to the rule, but that's a general trend. But as you've said, this has all been said before.
Is it more daunting to a new player to plunk down $50 for a Baneslayer Angel (already confirmed to be reprinted in M11) or $50 for 2 Lion's Eye Diamonds that are on the reserve list and will never be reprinted, and most likely will not be banned in Legacy?
Can't we use your own logic against your point of dealers and prices? Can't we as players just trade and hustle for the cards we need? With this system of tubes called in internetz, we can buy, sell and trade with people all over the world. If you can argue that smart and savvy people needn't necessarily lose out by playing Standard, you can apply that to picking up Legacy cards: smart and savvy people will be able to obtain cards at reasonable prices.
I also think the pace of life/the format vs. card availability hasn't really been discussed. If you are looking to put together TES, for example, and you need Burning Wishes, Orim's Chants, Lion's Eye Diamonds, etc., you have time to pick them up and find them, whereas with Standard, it's kind of a mad rush while the deck is still hot. The Standard format changes so quickly that if you have to hurry to pick up what you need, whereas with Legacy, it often takes a while to build a new deck. Maybe that's just my personal experience with those formats.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BenBleiweiss
I'll be talking about the recent fluctuation in Legacy (and honestly, Standard and Extended) in my SCG article next week.
Are you going to talk about why you’re pricing standard cards which haven’t even been released at $60? Are you going to tell us how rare they are and how you just can't keep them in stock at $40 or even $50? Just curious, how often have you been right in 'The Financial Value of X' articles?
In my opinion your team is hurting non-standard Magic as well as your own bottom line. Think how much you have to stretch to pick up the same singles you were buying up a year ago. Would it have killed you so much to have a graduated approach to card pricing rather than to just price it at the highest alternative?
You should read up on how and why the housing market crashed as there are eerie similarities to what’s happening to Magic prices. If you truly believe the prices are from fundamental factors of supply and demand, you’re sorely mistaken. You may not be the driving force in determining prices, but you’re a big reason why many of the fringe rares from the Rath and Saga blocks have gone through the roof. You need to be more responsible in pricing your cards. If the perception is that FoW is no longer a $30 card because you’ve had them on your site for $50+ for months, I wish you the best of luck putting them on your buylist at $25 a pop. Maybe I’m totally wrong and it’s much more profitable for you to make money on higher margin purchases rather than take advantage of economies of scale. That certainly hasn’t been the case with the few dealers I’ve polled about the recent price increases in Legacy.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kojiro
<snip>
In the true spirit of the housing crisis... "It's better to borrow decks from your friends!"
But seriously, I'm already suspecting the threshold of when people are forced out of this format to come soon. Then again, they're still buying Tabernacles for $300+ so what do I know?
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kojiro
Are you going to talk about why you’re pricing standard cards which haven’t even been released at $60? Are you going to tell us how rare they are and how you just can't keep them in stock at $40 or even $50?
Obviously SCG is sold out of Jaces at $60. So demand is high enough to justify that price. It's not like SCG has a neverending stream of Jaces they can put up for sale whenever they get sold out.
The same is true for all Magic cards.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Let's develop Legacy format and let's make money!
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
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Originally Posted by
Maveric78f
Let's develop Legacy format and let's make money!
Dude, what a waste of a 2000th post :D
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Ok follow my line of reasoning for a second here before the flame wars erupt...
$100 Goyfs are good for the format
WHAT WHAT THE F&CK ARE YOU SMOCKING
Ok if less players can afford that playset of goyfs for the deck it will require them to think up other decks to play. Thus bringing even more diversity to the format. More people will be looking at the lesser played cards and figuring out ways to play them. I honestly think these prices are actually going to shake the format up some and allow tier 1.5 and tier 2 decks to come forward and get the tweaks necessary to really make them competitive. We are going to see a lot of mono colored decks like Goblins and Merfolk going into the Grand Prix this year and I even suspect solidarity may make a run at a top 8.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Magic Fanatic
Ok if less players can afford that playset of goyfs for the deck it will require them to think up other decks to play. Thus bringing even more diversity to the format. More people will be looking at the lesser played cards and figuring out ways to play them. I honestly think these prices are actually going to shake the format up some and allow tier 1.5 and tier 2 decks to come forward and get the tweaks necessary to really make them competitive. We are going to see a lot of mono colored decks like Goblins and Merfolk going into the Grand Prix this year and I even suspect solidarity may make a run at a top 8.
And then whatever out-of-print cards are used in those decks skyrocket as well. Now what? :cry:
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
yankeedave
Dude, what a waste of a 2000th post :D
Damn it. Probability my 2000th post is crap has spoken.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mogote
It's not like SCG has a neverending stream of Jaces they can put up for sale whenever they get sold out.
Actually, SCG can pick up all the copies they could ever need on eBay for $35-45. Not sure how you think charging $20-$30 more than the going market rate for a card is at all justified.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kojiro
Actually, SCG can pick up all the copies they could ever need on eBay for $35-45. Not sure how you think charging $20-$30 more than the going market rate for a card is at all justified.
Its justifed because of the open market. If people will pay that, then why charge less? If people choose not to buy their cards cheaper elsewhere, for whatever reason, then SCG will sell at that price. They want to make money and people will pay that. If people stopped buying them out of stock, they wouldn't put new stock up at higher and higher prices. Simple economics. Eventually, they will hit a price that no one will pay, then they will bring it back down to the level that the cards begin to sell again.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Morbid-
But seriously, I'm already suspecting the threshold of when people are forced out of this format to come soon.
I don't understand this. You don't get forced out of Legacy if you have the cards already. It isn't the death of the format that you need to pay more money, it just stops outsiders from joining in as easily.
I don't care if Tarms hit 3000$ a piece, I still can play legacy because I own them.
On a side note, I do care, that would suck, I enjoy new players getting to play Legacy, but this statement and others like it are really annoying.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Phoenix Ignition
I don't understand this. You don't get forced out of Legacy if you have the cards already. It isn't the death of the format that you need to pay more money, it just stops outsiders from joining in as easily.
I don't care if Tarms hit 3000$ a piece, I still can play legacy because I own them.
On a side note, I do care, that would suck, I enjoy new players getting to play Legacy, but this statement and others like it are really annoying.
Sorry, I didn't actually word that statement correctly. I was actually still thinking of my housing analogy, LOL.
I mean barring people from the format because of the price of entry. My apologies.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
yankeedave
Its justifed because of the open market. If people will pay that, then why charge less?
That's actually the whole point. People are paying between $35-45 elsewhere. How many do you think they actually sold or will sell at $60? I seem to recall them having presales at $27 each...
Hey, everyone, I have Tabernacles for sale at $75 and Goyfs at $2000/playset, but unfortunately I'm sold out right now. See how productive and useful that is? :really:
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Jace, the Mind Sculptor (Pre-Order item. Release date February 5, 2010. Please click here to read our Preorder FAQ before ordering this item.) Worldwake Singles 2 Planeswalker - Jace M NM/M Out of Stock 59.99 Click here to be emailed when it's back in stock!
Looks like they are selling fine at $60 to me. If people are lazy, they will go somewhere where they already have an account or know/trust the dealer and just buy at whatever price. Not everyone has the common sense to shop around.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Phoenix Ignition
just stops outsiders from joining in as easily.
Thibg is, there is limited amount of staples already (simply because they're out of print, and weren't printed in high amounts). When prices skyrocket, that simply means there are barely enough cards in supply for given demand, so you're hitting that threshold of players not getting in the format due to the availability regardless.
Solution is simple: reprints.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tinefol
Solution is simple: reprints.
They reprinted Berserk not long ago, while it may not be a staple it was a pricey card all the same, and there was a drop in price.
