[Deck] Aggro Loam

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Originally Posted by Antonius

Punishing Fires is not nearly as good as Grim Lavamancer. Hell, I think you'd have a hard time convincing me that KotR is better than Grim Lavamancer. Dude is insane. I've won tons of games with just bob beats and lavamancer shocks its ridiculous. Lavamancer fills a unique roll within the deck, whereas KotR is distinguished by being not quite as good as Countryside Crusher. Stick to three colors, IMO. You don't gain that much from the fourth. STP is nice, but EE, Deed/Pulse and/or Edicts already do the same thing against big guys and Bolt is just straight better against little dudes.

If you really want to experiment with white, then try cutting black for it and abusing SFM. Don't just tack it on, because you're bound to have some color problems if you do.

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I found Knight to be much better than Crusher. I really like the Lavamancer idea though. I don't know that he needs to be played instead of Punishing Fires though. The two can go together.

If you take Seismic out for Lavamancer, the mana requirements for everything become very easy. It's not like you're running any BB or GG cards at that point.

I like Deed a lot. But it seems to have a lot of anti-synergies with a lot of other cards. Mox, Chalice, Lavamancer, plus any other creatures you want to play. I'm not sure you need that much sweet when you could be playing more versatile ones like Lavamancer and Pulse.

No way Knight can ever be better than Crusher in this deck. In other decks, yeah, but in a deck with 27 land, you want Crusher because he gets you the goods. If crusher stuck long enough for you to untap, chances are you will crush into removal (and win the game) or dudes (and have some gas for recovery if they get some removal) or you get loam (then the growth rate on crusher goes exponential and he essentially becomes the abyss) or you reveal diamond, which sucks, but happens a lot less than the other awesome scenarios.

The best Knight can manage is +3/+3 per turn or +2/+2 if you're trying to convert forests into wastelands to wear your opponent down. I suppose generating more mana during your main phase is pretty awesome too, but I generally don't want to tap my biggest creature to do something other than attack if I'm facing down a weenie deck. And if I'm not attacking against my opponent's empty board...then what the fuck am I doing exactly?
Knight doesn't fix your draw and getting more wastelands can be real good in a pickle but isn't always relevant when you can just get more wastelands via loam. Furthermore, the number one thing you want to do in this deck (cast life from the loam) shrinks knight, sometimes even into burn range! Seeing your three drop eat shit on a lightning bolt is terrible and I've killed more than a handful of knights with bolts to know that well enough. Knight doesn't play well with Lavamancer and Lavamancer is insanely good. Ever get a board of Lavamancer/Crusher? or Lavamancer/Seismic? Get your nut coming and going on the train to value town?

Knight also dies to Perish and loses to relic/crypt. If you're in Jund (the best colors for you to be in) then you can actually board perishes of your own and just destroy green decks. Goyf is your only green creature and he's the worst creature in the deck anyways.

Last thing I'll say on deed: You need some kind of sweeper if you're in Junk colors and Deed is the only sweeper you have. If you're in Jund, then yeah, play Seismic instead because Seismic is insane. But after boarding, Seismic is less consistently awesome because your opponents can bring in yard hate or needle type effects. Deed sweeps without Loam, crushes Affinity and gives you traction against dredge. Deed also helps you recover from a slow start and just dominates your opponent if it sticks on an open board. Don't be so antsy about collateral damage. Most of the time, you'd be willing to trade a mox and a deed for your opponent's hiearch, bob and goyf. Trust me on this: deed is a card you want in your sideboard.

I don't think you're giving Knight a fair shake at all. I tested both and always wanted Knight over Crusher.

Crusher comes into play as a 3/3. Knight doesn't have to and most of the time it doesn't. Sure, you can cycle and fetch to make Crusher bigger on your turn, but you don't always have that. Knight can certainly manage more than +3/+3 a turn. Cycling lands and dredging puts lands into your yard as well. All without tapping your Knight to tutor. Crusher is far more vulnerable to Lightning Bolt than Knight. No question.

Knight also tutors. That means you can play specialty lands and get them when you need them. Maze. Tabernacle. Wasteland. Horizon Canopy. Grove of Burnwillows. Volrath's Stronghold. Bojuka Bog. Knight can fetch all of those. Crusher cannot.

The key to me is that Knight is good when you're behind and need a big creature now. Knight comes into play big. Crusher... doesn't. Crusher helps when you're already winning, but doesn't always get you to winning. Playing a Crusher without some type of backup, either Dark Confidant or Loam can strand you on land. If you don't have a way of drawing more land, he can be more of a liability than an asset.

I'm really having a hard time with this. All of the testing I and my group has done has shown that Knight far outclasses Crusher. Maybe it's a different style of deck or play, but Knight is a good reason to play white. He's that good.

Cycling lands and Dredging apply to both Knight and Crusher. There wasn't a point in putting that up. Knight gets axed by Relics and Crypts. I've killed multiple Knights with Nihil Spellbong + Devastating dreams. I've shot knights with Lavamancers then cracked crypts. Its awesome. Crusher does not lose against those lines of play, only against Leyline... and Knight usually loses to Leyline too. Also, Crusher is never awkward with loam. Ever.

Of the specialty lands you mentioned the only truly necessary one is wasteland, which you can always use loam to get more of. Volrath's is great. I run it but I found the contingency to only be relevant in truly long games. Those other lands you mentioned, you generally don't need and can just end up screwing you when you draw them in an opening hand. I mean i would love to keep a hand of taiga, maze, the nuts... but you need to be able to cast the nuts. Maze doesn't do that.

Crusher isn't only good when you're winning. Crusher wins you games. Does knight bypass three lands to get you a maelstrom pulse when you're facing down double bob or double goyf? Or EE when you're up against a tapped out opponent with bob/SFM and batterer in hand? Of course, those are idealized examples, because what you reveal after crushing lands is random, but it still stands to reason that because this deck is all bombs, getting anything other than a land would drastically improve any of those situations. If you're up against bob/goyf or tapped out opponent with SFM/Bob, then ee, bolt, pulse or seismic all lead to insane plays. Revealing a bob of your own allows you to catch up, revealing a goyf allows you to start swinging without hemorrhaging revealing another crusher probably means that your opponent has to draw removal or lose in a turn or two (even batterer can't beat two crushers), especially if you already have loam. The only thing that wouldn't help is revealing loam (if you already have it...) or mox diamond - and that's an acceptable percentage to me.

Crusher is so much better and more robust than Knight in the context of this deck that it's not even a question. You run 4 crusher, then, maybe if you're in white you can add a knight or two. Not the other way around.

So, I'm gonna repost my question from a couple months ago. I'm interested in putting this deck together as my second Legacy deck (other one is Merfolk), because I like the strategy, and I have a lot of the crucial cards. The important stuff I have is 2 Taiga, 1 Bayou, 1 Savannah, 1 Scrubland, 1 Badlands, 1 Mox Diamond, 2 Knight of the Reliquary, 3 Dark Confidant, playsets of Loam, Terravores, Wastelands, and a couple other cards that are worth minor loot.

I'm not really sure if I should go three color or four color. The duals I own are actually slightly more friendly to a four color deck, I think, but I don't want to be super soft to Wasteland.

The important stuff I would have to buy, as I figure it, is 3 more Moxes, X Goyfs, X fetch-lands, and X more dual lands. Plus moderately expensive stuff like 1 more Confidant or 2 more Knights, etc. I'd really like to run a version with either 1 or zero Tarmogoyf, since I don't own any and I think he's kinda dumb, etc. But only if I can find a version that I feel is optimal with a low number of Goyfs. I was thinking perhaps Green Sun's Zenith could be an option worth exploring, although probably only as like a 2-of. As far as fetch-lands, I have sets of Scalding Tarn and Misty Rainforest, but I figure that being able to fetch basics is pretty important, so I may have to buy most of the fetches I use.

So, anyways, I was wondering if anyone has advice based on all these qualifiers. Should I build Aggro Loam? If so, what colors should I use? How can I make the best deck with what I have, and not end up spending more than like a couple hundred bucks, ideally? Etc. Thanks in advance to any kind souls who have guidance on this.

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Originally Posted by Antonius

Crusher is so much better and more robust than Knight in the context of this deck that it's not even a question. You run 4 crusher, then, maybe if you're in white you can add a knight or two. Not the other way around.

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I'm more with CorpT. The main KoTR asset to me was that she usually enters the battlefield being at least 4/4 which makes her resistant to a single burn spell or Nacatl. I have often felt like I have to treat Crusher as some capricious primadona as you have to have some cycleland in your hand or a fourth land as a fetch to keep Crusher away from burn or simply do not even block with him in the first turn as he would die from almost any attacker.

Anyways, I tried many many Loam variations (standard BRG, with or without Bob/KoTR, BRGw, Bg, RG, Naya with Enlightened Tutor), all of them were without Mox Diamond (as I do not have them and neither want to play with them seeing how Loam underperforms in big events and people complain about the deck when not having the Mox in their starting hands), and came up with Naya (with tiny B splash) version as the best so far.

26 Lands
Windswept Heath 4
Verdant Catacombs 4
Plains 1
Forest 1
Taiga 1
Savannah 1
Plateau 1
Badlands 1

Forgotten Cave 3 (the minimum amount just to enable double loam in a turn for assault)

Wasteland 4
Kor Haven 1 (should be Maze of Ith)
Volrath's Stronghold 1
Grove of the Burnwillows 1
Sejiri Steppe 1
Bojuka Bog 1

Aggro package:
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Figure of Destiny
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Kitchen Finks (had to include something to help me against burn or aggro decks)

Removal:
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
3 Punishing Fire
3 Engineered Explosives

3 Seismic Assault (removal and win-con)

Control stuff:
3 Life from the Loam
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Crop Rotation

SB:
Sideboard Name
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Raven's Crime
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Punishing Fire
1 Path to Exile
1 Crop Rotation
1 Glacial Chasm

As you can see, I play very lightweight creatures for two reasons:
1) they can be dropped very early and fight against aggro (Nacatl is especially good in that) allowing me to stall until Assault-Loam;
2) they give me a fairly quick clock against combo;
I won many games by simply dropping two Nacatls and clearing the way by my removal (just like zoo). On paper it looks like I have too few creatures to maintain a good early pressure, but it really works for me (many of my opponents found Nacatl suprisingly good in this deck).

SDT is the latest addition and I'm extremely satisfied with it so far. It lets you dig through your lands and if you see 3 cards that are completely unnecessary, then you can simply dredge by exactly 3 by your Loam. Very good combination for deep digging (and looking for new threats or answers). Basically I dig for answers/threats instead of direct drawing via cyclelands.

Crop rotation allows me to play my land toolbox: it can be another wasteland, midgame CA engine in Volrath's Stronghold, Grove (for punishing fire), gravehate in Bojuka (useful even against zoo by unexpectedly reducing goyfs and KotRs), combat trick in Sejiri or Maze of Ith.

I won my local tourney, but it was too small to prove anything (won (and drew) against Big Zoo, Mighty Quinn, PSI combo), however in playtests it performed fairly well against many tier1 or less competetive decks.
I'm not sure if I'm damn lucky or what, but I have no problems with Combo decks (my meta has fully built decks like ANT, QSI, Belcher, Solidarity). In fact, I have nearly 100% score against them. Of course, as you can see, I have dedicated a lot of SB slots for combo matchups, but that really helps me to get wins against them.

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Originally Posted by Careve

Anyways, I tried many many Loam variations (standard BRG, with or without Bob/KoTR, BRGw, Bg, RG, Naya with Enlightened Tutor), all of them were without Mox Diamond (as I do not have them and neither want to play with them seeing how Loam underperforms in big events and people complain about the deck when not having the Mox in their starting hands) ...

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I highly recommend at least testing Mox Diamond before you discount its power. Yes, I wish I could start every game with one in my opening hand, but every deck wants to see its key cards in the opening seven.

Your list is interesting (looks mostly like Big Zoo rather than a loam deck), although it seems to go in all directions at once. Let us know how it fares in future events, especially any large ones.

Sorry in advance for necro. I'm thinking of picking up Aggro Loam as my secondary deck (something not blue), but I'm not sure what lists look like For RGb or RGw. I've also been messing around with a B/g build (more controllish) that got 64th at GP: Providence. Is anyone able to provide updated decklists for either of the two previous builds? Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Anarky87

Sorry in advance for necro. I'm thinking of picking up Aggro Loam as my secondary deck (something not blue), but I'm not sure what lists look like For RGb or RGw. I've also been messing around with a B/g build (more controllish) that got 64th at GP: Providence. Is anyone able to provide updated decklists for either of the two previous builds? Thank you.

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+1
I would love to see some updated deck lists and maybe even a refresh on the primer. Aggro Loam seems fairly well situated against the current meta based on how I've seen it function in the past.

I ran some games against TA the other day and did some wonderful crush-ery:

4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain
1 Forest (I feel like I need a Swamp also, but we'll see)
4 Wasteland
4 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Taiga
2 Bayou
1 Badlands

4 Countryside Crusher
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
1 Terravore

2 Sylvan Library
2 Go for the Throat
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Dismember
2 Terminate
3 Seismic Assault
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond

BOARD:
2 Thrun
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Extirpate
2 Pyroblast
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Perish


I also crushed some Stoneforge builds, as well.

-Matt

Nice. I was leaning more towards the RGb version, but really was needing to buy some of the last pieces so I could go either way. Sucks that I recently traded Taiga's and Bayou's for some Jace that I haven't even used yet... >.<

The removal package seems pretty nice. How have your matchups against Zoo and Merfolk been? I only was able to play against 'Folk a couple games and some bad draws on my part coupled with god draws both times on his part left a bad taste in my house.

It's not terrible against Folk. If I can get some creatures down, even if I don't get Loam online, I have bigger guys and 8 pieces of removal, so it's usually alright. Out of the board, Deed makes it even better. If I get Assault online, it's obviously game, as I just mow down their guys or go nuts and go for the face. I usually don't land Assault against Merfolk though; Most competent players save the counterspells for that.

Zoo I haven't tried much, but I'll have to see. We're pretty slow, but I'm hoping removal coupled with Deed out of the board and big guys should give us enough to get there. Sylvan Library is a great addition to Dark Confidant, as Confidant doesn't always stick around in this matchup :P

-Matt

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Originally Posted by Anarky87

How have your matchups against Zoo and Merfolk been?

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Merfolk used to have a really hard time answering a quick Dark Confidant, although with builds adopting Dismember, that could change. I play a build with no Bobs but more mass removal (more similar to the G/B deck you spoke of), and Firespout and Engineered Explosives shine in both of those matchups. And yeah, Seismic Assault with Loam is game-winning against any aggro matchup.

@ Sdematt: Am I reading that right? You're playing no Moxes?

No, I'm playing Moxes, it's just I was doing the list off the top of my head, and I forgot. I'll edit it.

Re: Firespout
I was playing that card for forever in Dreadstill, and in the board of this deck, and it never gets you there against Folk, unless it's very early. I mean, don't get me wrong, it does a fine job, but I never found I won games because of it. I know Deed wrecks your Moxen, and possibly your other permanents, but it kills everything. If you need to Deed at 3 and kill your Seismic Assault, you're probably already dead. Killing Moxen isn't fun, but sometimes you have to do things to win.

That's just my two cents. I can always try Firespout again, but killing Artifact lands, artifacts, enchantments, and all that other junk is great as well. I'm sure you can combine both in the same sideboard, but right now, Perish is serving double duty. With all the NO Rug, Maverick, and such around, wiping their board, coupled with Deed, will hopefully be devastating.

-Matt

Dismember seems like an awful idea. Do you really want to pay a total of 7 life for a removal spell?

Run Bolt and Lavamancer. You won't regret it.

This deck seems like it's in a very good position to take over the meta now that Counterbalance has disappeared off the face of the earth.

How well does this deck fare against Merfolk, Team America, and Zoo?

I guess CotV is a thing of the past. Anyone care to offer a comparison between RGw and RGb lists?

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

How well does this deck fare against Merfolk, Team America, and Zoo?

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Merfolk - 50/50. They only need to counter Seismic Assault and Devastating Dreams. They can tap down any of your big blockers with Reejerey.

Team America - positive due to Wasteland recursion.

Zoo - positive if you're playing Devastating Dreams. 55/45 otherwise, mostly due to their burn. Builds with EE and CotV fare better.

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Originally Posted by rukcus

Merfolk - 50/50. They only need to counter Seismic Assault and Devastating Dreams. They can tap down any of your big blockers with Reejerey.

Team America - positive due to Wasteland recursion.

Zoo - positive if you're playing Devastating Dreams. 55/45 otherwise, mostly due to their burn. Builds with EE and CotV fare better.

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Are you just pulling these numbers out of your ass? Tony literally sits on Merfolk's face and shits all over it, every single time. You are a nonblue deck with Goyf, they can only attack if they have a Reejery, and with 4 Bolt, 2 Lavamancer, 3 Seismic, 2 Pulse, and 2 EE, how is that thing living long enough to matter.

I think the card Life from the Loam just straight up beats every control/tempo blue deck. The fact that BUG has smaller creatures and with no way to remove from the game, Volrath's Stronghold will beat them in the long game. The only time they can be scary is when they land a Jace and protect it for multiple turns while it is Brainstorming/Fatesealing, but even then, he usually doesn't beat Life from the Loam.

The Zoo match up definitely seems somewhat tricky on paper, but Seismic will always resolve, so just crush them with that, pretty much every aggro deck will get steam rolled by Aggro Loam.

The problem match ups for Aggro Loam are anything that tries to play in an unfair manner (every combo deck, although Painter Stone can be easy sometimes thanks to Grudges).

I think I'm gonna start out with Antonius's build for awhile and see how that feels. I like the idea of Lavamancer being able to gun down merfolk's team. It's kinda funny, in the 10-15 games I've played so far, I've only seen SA once, and it got countered. Still wanting to actually see/land one and go to town on people.