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I personalty don't like wasteland, Karakas or Kor :Quote:
Originally Posted by Maëlig
wasteland : your land drops are more important then your opponents, you do not care about your opponents lands like maze or karakas
Karakas : If you could fetch for it I would understand the inclusion of this land in the deck. ( why make your self more vulnerable to wastes ? )
Kor : same as Karakas
factory: I don't think it's needed in this deck. ( I think it's better in a land still variant of that deck )
I've playtested with alot of different configurations in the past few years with this deck, and I will say that each has its pros and cons. I will also say that changes in the metagame often make one choice which was bad before good now, and vice versa.
I already explained why I'm playtesting with Factory at the moment, but that doesn't mean I won't change my mind and try something else later.
I have been liking Mishra's Factory alot in testing, though. I run 4 mass sweepers (Terminus), and Factories stick around to continue applying pressure afterwards, or provide a nice 3/3 chump blocker if I need it (usually when I need to protect Jace or something). Clocking an opponent with just 3 SCM is a pretty bad backup plan, but clocking an opponent with 4 Factory 3 SCM is not.
If I upped my Entreat count to 3, Factory would be less necessary. I've been satisfied with my Entreat count for now, though.
EDIT: Honestly, I might reconsider Elspeth again for testing purposes. Entreat is without a doubt clearly more powerful, but I like that Elspeth forces opponents to overcommit into Terminus, and then she sticks around afterwards. She can then jump a Factory in the air, or rebuild a new token army. She plays nicely with postboard Humility, too. Elspeth is lower in overall power level to that of Entreat, but she's easier to cast and has more synergy with the deck overall. Much to think about, I suppose.
I agree that the factories make for a good kill condition. But I think that it's not needed in this deck . It all comes down to play still and what you want ( a stable mana base or another win condition )Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
I totally agree with you that 2 Entreat is the right number
Elspeth, Knight Errant
Elspeth provides a good mix. She doesn't take a lot to set up (just have mana) and works well with Terminus. If you prefer a variety of options to get your game going, Elspeth and Entreat the Angels can go well together.
Wasteland
On Cavern of Souls, what I noticed too is that some Sliver deck users are really juicing up on its no-counter, any-color gift, and combined with Aether Vial it becomes a lot more painful to deal with because of the increased consistency and speed of threats, in different kinds and colors. So far, that and Goblins are the ones really utilizing that new powerful land. I'm not sure yet if we should "waste" them or just mind our own game. There's not much of them I think...for now.
I did not get to play vs cavern in legacy yet but between my main and side board I have 4 STP 4 Terminus and 1 devastation tide + vs vial and aggro decks I board out my counter spellsQuote:
Originally Posted by sarapfish
Slivers doesn't have Matron and Ringleader, so I'm alot less worried about them than I am about Goblins. Goblins has historically been a rather difficult matchup for this deck, but I really like what Terminus MD and Humility SB do to improve the matchup. Entreat the Angels in the midgame is also pretty brutal, since they lack sweepers, 4/4 bodies block all their stuff clean, and they can't block the fliers in return.
I tried running Mishra's Factory (x3) and it seems that it's worth testing. Not really a burden on the manabase, and they provide valuable punches offensively when the coast is clear as well as defensively against lighter threats. I like it so far.
Other than that, the tweaking is mostly on the number of entreats (so far 2 seems to be the effective number but still testing 3), and planeswalkers (with Elspeth or not).
Avacyn Restored gave us good direction, with Terminus and Entreat both entering as possible mainstays and maybe part of the deck's new skeleton.
I'd say at this point that Terminus is obviously a mainstay. This deck is naturally built to take advantage of the Miracle effects, similarly to why the deck was able to use Predict in the earlier versions. A 1 mana WoG effect is extremely powerful.Quote:
Avacyn Restored gave us good direction, with Terminus and Entreat both entering as possible mainstays and maybe part of the deck's new skeleton.
I remember back a year or two ago when people were running Firespout instead of Wrath of God because it cost 1 less mana.
Entreat isn't necessarily a mainstay, since it has less synergy with Terminus than Elspeth does. It's power level is well beyond Elspeth's though, so personally I'll be giving up some synergy for the more powerful effect (and stick with Entreat).
new top 8 on the last scg open:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=46650
\\Artifacts
1 Crucible Of Worlds
4 Sensei's Divining Top
\\Enchantments
1 Humility
\\Instants
2 Banishing Stroke
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Swords to Plowshares
\\Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
\\Sorceries
3 Entreat the Angels
3 Temporal Mastery
4 Terminus
\\Basic Lands
4 Island
2 Plains
\\Lands
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland
\\Legendary Lands
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
\\Sideboard:
1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Culling Scales
1 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Circle of Protection: Red
2 Counterbalance
1 Humility
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Negate
I would say there are a lot of things to talk about.
1. kind of special sideboard
2. 3 TM??
3. No CB main
4. THREE entreat the angels
5. 3 Spell Snare in a Sneak and Tell and RUG meta?
6. 2 Banishing Stroke (I like them)
7. Wasteland over Mishras
8. 3 StP, maybe ok with 4 Terminuas and 2 Banishing Stroke
9. 1 Humility main?
I can see that crucible with TM is strong, especially with wasteland and/or fetchland. This list is interesting at least. Any thoughts?
The way it got crushed against MUD was discouraging. I've been testing the various UW control builds discussed in this thread against Sneak and Show and that deck can easily match our counters to cheat a fatty quicker than we can set up defenses. I think the top 3 decks that UW Control should aim to beat are RUG, Sneak and Show, Maverick. I would say the current matchups are favorable for Maverick, even for RUG and unfavorable for Sneak and Show. It needs improvement on those matchups if it's going to get a decent position in the metagame (taling about the general UW Miracle archetype here, not that specific list).
Upping the MD Spell Pierce count is what naturally comes to mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by bilb_o
Thoughts?
...splashing black for Thoughtseize and Liliana is what I do. I think I can help out at that MU as I played SneakAttack for quite awhile and left the sinking ship last week. What SneakAttack can't deal with:
Discard, followed by Counter
Ethersworn Canonist, followed by Counter
Pithing Needle, followed by Counter
I will post my own list later today, even though it might not be too good, cause it's been quite awhile since I last played Control-Decks. I was only playing stupid Combo-Decks in the last months (Dredge, SneakAttack).
Greetings
Went 3-0 at a small local event yesterday with the following list:
Land
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
6 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage
Instants
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
Sorceries
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
Artifacts
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Enchantments
3 Counterbalance
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Porphyry Nodes
Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Path to Exile
2 Spell Pierce
2 Disenchant
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Humility
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
Notes:
I feel that Elspeth is a must. She's so good at buying time in a proactive way (Rather than Jace-bounce defensively) and presents a threat that opponents need to answer before she and the cards you're amassing take over the game. Entreat is like putting all your eggs in one basket, if it resolves, cool you probably win, but like Hanni has said, you want to be entreating for more than 2 usually, meaning elspeth is an earlier drop and she can start over if the board's wiped (ee, e.truth, etc...).
CB in the main, not side. This seems to be the consensus now, but let me reiterate. It's very good against almost everything played right now. I've been playing 3 SDT, 3 CB, not sure what's correct, but I don't think 4 of each is necessary (I might test more with 4 SDTs though), but I like having the 2 extra spots in the main for cards like Elspeth/Oring/Porphyry Nodes.
Which leads me to Porphyry Nodes. It's a main deck answer to S&T shenanegins, but unlike Oring, can deal with Progenitus. It's also admirable against any deck that plans on having more than 1 creature out at a time. It's a free extra removal spell for a couple turns.
I agree with Hanni that at least 1 Oblivion Ring main is something to consider. It answers a lot of unexpected things, but also provides another main deck answer to things like S&T.
Now the SB. I'm waiting for my other Humility to arrive, so I figured try Ensnaring bridge in its place for the time. I haven't had to play agaisnt S&T yet though, so I don't know how the rest fairs. I will say though, the first 11 cards (down to E.Tutor) are very solid SB choices right now, I side all of them in a lot and they feel right. Humility is necessary right now I'd say, at least 2. I would like to try out pithing needle, might run a couple this week.
As for the land debate, I don't know what's correct. I prefer consistency and therefore have avoided colorless sources. But, I am tempted to try factories as a 2-3 of. I also don't like the Academy Ruins that some people are running for just their SDTs? If I try out a ruins, I'd like to work an EE or 2 into the 75 to make it worth it.
I prefer Counterspell and Spell Pierce. Snare is too conditional for the current meta, and the other 2 are answer-alls pretty much, I like knowing I have definite answers. Main deck pierces are awesome, so many people still don't seem to realize that it's a maindeck card in decks other than RUG or UR Delver and play right into it G1.
After having finally played the deck at a big tournament (and miserably drawing 4 rounds out of 7), I definitely think factory is good in this deck. Entreat and jace just aren't reliable and fast enough as win-cons to avoid drawing repeatedly. Elspeth might help too I guess.
I played UW Miracles at SCG: Columbus and placed 44th after going 0-2 in the first two rounds. I also know the player that made top 8 at this event and helped with some of the card choices that he was playing. I will post my list, which is more streamlined compared to the heavy miracle list he was running, and a small tournament report later today or tomorrow if anyone wants to read it.
I would love to read about a report and card choices between your list and his. A friend of mine has been playing a UWb control list with terminus counters and thopter combo for a kill. In our testing it has a very good matchup against RUG delver and sneak show.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fade
I've been stomping RUG and Maverick with the decklist I posted. I haven't had a chance to play against Sneak/Show with it, but I've played that matchup a bunch in the past. They gained Griselbrand since then, while I gained Terminus.
The matchup before was just fine for me. I'm slow with no clock, but I have hard counters. Most Sneak/Show lists I've seen run 4 FoW, 3 Daze, 3 Misdirection, 2 Pierce/Fluster. I'm usually capable of playing around Daze, and them having 7 "pitch" counters means I can gas them out. I run 4 FoW 4 Counterspells, and just because I only have 4 3cc spells for Counterbalance, does not make Counterabalance irrelevant. Countering even one or two cantrips with Counterbalance can gas them out, to the point where they might not even have a blue spell to pitch to the FoW in their hand.
Going in, they have 4 Griselbrands. The other half of their creature base is 4 Emrakul. If they SNT Emrakul, I have 2 Jace TMS, 2 Oblivion Ring, and 4 Terminus to answer him. That's a buttload, considering we're talking about a resolved SNT. Sneak Attack -> Emrakul is harder to deal with, but Top still enables instant speed Terminus, and Oblivion Ring can still answer Sneak Attack if they can't pay the extra R immediately.
Griselbrand is more difficult to answer, since he can draw them 14 cards once resolved, dodging removal in that regard, but that doesn't mean they automatically win. I've beaten several Reanimator decks now after Griselbrand resolved. I realize Sneak/Show isn't Reanimator, but I can still see there being games where they draw 14 cards, put another fatty into play, I Terminus before they swing, and then close it out with Factory beats. They can't Misdirect Terminus, and Daze doesn't stop Termi either.
Postboard, Humility is an awesome trump card, especially when protected by Counterbalance. There are an assload of options in U/W, and even more with a color splash. Needle, Meddling Mage, Peacekeeper (did you guys forget about this awesome wittle guy?), Aura of Silence, Ensnaring Bridge (I wouldn't recommend this in this deck, but it's a great option in Thopters), Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, Vendilion Clique, so on and so forth. Black offers discard, red offers REB. There are plenty of answers to Sneak and Show. This matchup shouldn't be that worrisome. Let the hype wear down.
Lands (22):
3x Tundra
1x Glacial Fortress
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
3x Mishra’s Factory
4x Island
2x Plains
1x Karakas
Spells (30):
4x Force of Will
4x Sensei’s Divining Top
4x Counterbalance
4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Terminus
2x Entreat the Angels
2x Counterspell
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Spell Pierce
Creatures (4):
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique
Planeswalkers (4):
3x Jace the Mindsculptor
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Side (15):
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Humility
3 Spell Pierce
2 Disenchant
2 Porphyry Nodes
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Vendilion Clique
One’s: 13
Two’s: 9
Three’s: 4
Four’s: 4
Five’s: 4
Six’s: 4
Let me preface this tournament report with I have never played a Counterbalance deck before in my life.
Round 1: Eric Fry with MUD (Placed Second)
Game 1: I remember seeing him play at GP: Indy with Death and Taxes. I keep my hand with natural turn 2 Counterbalance Top. I ended up being crushed by having to Force a Chalice of the Void on the first turn and then he was able to resolve lightning greaves, metalworker into Forgemaster and then into Sundering Titan leaving me with one island on turn 3…. He wasn’t on Death and Taxes.
Game 2: Much of the same thing happened except he had trinisphere on turn 2, which I had to Force. He then played 2 grim monoliths into lightning greaves into forgemaster into blightsteel colossus.
0-1
Round 2: Dale Boyce with Burn
Game 1: I mulligan to 4 cards as my seven had 3 Miracle cards in it and the sequential hands were poop. I finally kept when I had one land that tapped for blue mana. He starts off and goes mountain goblin guide attack…. Next game.
Game 2: I keep a better hand and assemble counterbalance top on turn 3. I end up brainstorming on my fourth turn and put back a plains and an Elspeth, Knight-Errant…. My hand contained a Snapcaster Mage and a Sensei’s Divining Top after the brainstorm. I optimized my brainstorm but didn’t optimize the counterbalance top package. The next turn I was burned out since I was only at 5 life and fell to 3 after the Goblin guide attacked.
Side note: Adrian Sullivan was seated right next to me and his match ended before mine. I think he was on BUG Control and his opponent was playing Merfolk (Might be seeing a comeback!?). After the second game Adrian asked me if I would like some advice and told me about the brainstorm misplay. I thanked him and applied his advice for the rest of the day. Later when I got home I was watching the first round of coverage from Nashville where Adrian mentioned that his second to least favorite deck in legacy was Dredge. Adam Prosak guessed his least favorite deck was high tide. Surprisingly, Adrian’s least favorite deck is Counterbalance…. Anyways, mad props to Adrian Sullivan for offering helpful advice even if it is someone who likes to durdle around with Counterbalances and Tops.
0-2
Round 3: Joe Kovach with Reanimator
Game 1: It looks like he was playing with a semi budget list without entombs being the most notable card. He replaced it with buried alive which seemed fine especially against a deck with not many 3 drops compared to one drops to flip with a counterbalance. He ends up punting game 1 when he plays Iona and names blue instead of white. I have been floating a terminus at the top on my deck a pulled the trigger during his attack stop. He ends up reanimating two more creatures which are taken care of with swords and snapcaster mage. I eventually get the counterbalance lock and beat down with factories and cliques.
Game 2: This wasn’t much of a game as I had surgical in hand and a snapcaster. I drew into another surgical and assembled top and counterbalance around turn 5 or so. Creatures went beat down and I won the first match of the day.
1-2
Round 4: Patrick Tea with UR Delver
Game 1: He stated that this was the first legacy event that he was playing in and that he was borrowing most of the cards from friends. It looked like his deck was fine with the exception of his manabase. He was running sulfur falls and a steam vents because he couldn’t find volcanic islands. I end up stabilizing at 7 life and Vendilion Clique beat him down.
Game 2: Much of the same happened. I stabilize at 6 life, setup the lock and beat him down with snapcaster and a factory. During one of the games he played a Karakas……I guess UR doesn’t have very many answers to Sneak Attack and he apparently worked it into his mana base.
2-2
Round 5: Erick Stone with Dredge
He ends up being seated next to a friend and they have a little conversation that went like, “You should be X-0 if you didn’t miss your triggers.” I then replied with “Oh, so you’re that guy.” My opponent looks at me funny and I explain, “You’re playing dredge, aren’t you?” My opponent denies it a bit and his friend changes the subject. I press on saying, “Yep, changing the subject so soon. You’re definitely that guy.” He then confirms it even before the match started.
Game 1: After forcing his first discard outlet and he sac’s his LED and flashes looting back. He only has a thug and didn’t flip over anything relevant. I see what might be the worst flop he could get from his second attempt at dredging leaving him to draw until his hand fills up. I eventually find an entreat the angels and cast it at the end of one of his turns and swung for lethal.
Game 2: keep a hand with Surgical extraction and after he sac’s LED to flashback a looting I surgical the grave troll leaving him with just a thug. He doesn’t flip much but it’s better than last time. He ends up getting a Sun titan and some zombies on the field. Topdeck and see the terminus and drop it on the table. I then end up extracting his Narcomebas and his Ichorids leaving him with no effective way of producing zombies besides a lone bloodghast. I end up finding another entreat the angels to take the game away.
3-2
Round 6: Jerrod Webb with Dream Halls
Game 1: It ends up being draw go for a while knowing he was playing some Show and Tell variant from shuffling. I put him on Sneak Attack as it’s the most popular one right know. I go for a counterbalance and I believe he forces it and I let it die. He gets a third island and I then know it’s probably Dream Halls as sneak attack normally plays 2 Islands (Ran the list last weekend) and Hive Mind would have fetched duals to potentially pay for a slaughter pact or pact of the titan. He ends up casting dream halls and I have to let it resolve. He passes the turn and I discard a swords to play an Elspeth. He casts a conflux and I have the force of will. I then clock him with and Elspeth, soldier token, and a factory.
Game 2: Dream halls ends up resolving again but he just passes the turn meanwhile I have been attacking with factory. I draw and top and find the entreat the angels. I pass the turn and make enough angels to ensure I win on my turn.
4-2
Round 7: Jerry Yang with Sneak and Show
A mutual Judge friend walks by and says he had faith in Jerry and none for me in this tournament and he hopes Jerry crushes me. It was probably provoked due to the fact I told him the Maverick list he sent me earlier in the week was not coherent enough to actually play. His list contained many non-creatures with 4 Thalia main board. Including having the plan to turn 2 a Thalia and then ramping up to 5 mana to play a main board Armageddon as a plan to beat Sneak Attack.
Game 1: He does what Sneak Attack does and he Sneaks in an Emrakul to kill me on turn 3 or 4.
Game 2: I play a turn one Karakas to let him know he is not going to be killing me that easily. He ends up show and telling and I put clique into play. In response to the triggered ability I bounce the griselbrand to his hand with karakas and see a hand of monsters and sneak attack but no actual way to produce a red mana. I let him keep his hand and clock him with clique and karakas back up. On one turn he REB my clique and I return it to my hand. Luckily he had no way of Sneaking an Emrakul into play and I play the clique again at the end of his turn which seals the deal.
Game 3: He goes for turn 3 show and tell and I immediately let it resolve and have my card picked before he has his. He flips over an Emrakul and I flip over Humility (Greatest card ever!). I then play a factory on my turn which is still a 2/2 due to layering and I race his 1/1 emrakul with my awesome Spring time Mishra’s Factory.
5-2
Round 8: Raymond Perez with GWb Maverick (Black for Bobs and I think discard if I remember right)
Game 1: I played Maverick at GP: Indy show I knew how the match up would play out. The game lasts long but a timely terminus could have spelled disaster for him. I do not find it in time and I know I’m in a bad position as I look at the clock and there is only 22 minutes left. So, I quickly sideboard and shuffle up.
Game 2: I feel in control all throughout this game. An early porphyry nodes stunted his board and allowed me to setup Counterbalance top, which is effective but still not the best thing you want to be doing. He only has two cards in hand and I know I need to hurry up and win so I tap out to play Jace the Mindsculptor and fateseal. Not seeing anything too terribly relevant. I then played a porphyry nodes to further stunt him. He draws the irrelevant card and slams a choke….He said it was in his opener but I can’t believe I actually ran into it. He passes his turn and I kill his arbor and the second nodes die. I’m stunted on 2 mana (factory and plains) luckily I have counterbalance and top in play. I fateseal and pass. He plays a 2 drop and I top and can not find a two drop to save my life or even a disenchant to destroy the choke. This continues and I grind Jace up to 13 counters. I have Snapcaster and swords to block and swords his other guy. I start to believe I have won through choke and make the play when he attacks. He then responds with the tormod’s crypt he laid on turn 2 or 3 which I forgot about. Jace fell below 12 and He grinds me out…. I know I misplayed in this game and it was a terrible feeling. Luckily the guy I played the game with was probably my coolest opponent of the day and I enjoyed the games we played.
5-3
Round 9: Matt Lucas with BW Zombies
Game 1: He leads with a scrubland and carrion feeder and I think he is on some rwb zombies list with goblin bombardment. He then lays down a Messenger and I take 4 instantly and get hit with the Feeder. He then plays the rack. Meantime, I assemble Counterbalance and Top but it was too late as he was able to grind out the game with the rack even after I swords and snapcaster swords his guys.
Game 2: I assemble counterbalance top and swords a few of his guys and clock him with snapcaster and a factory. His deck is full of ones and twos and counterbalance literally steals the game away. In this game he did land a rack and after hymning me a few times I hand to build my hand up again. Luckily I had a top which allowed me to play around the rack while fixing my draws.
Game 3: Much of the same as game 2. Swords, Surgical, Snapcaster, and Counterbalance with top won me the game pretty handily. At one point I start to wonder why I never saw a disenchant in either this game or in game 2 to get rid of the rack as it forced me to play top, top, then draw with top at the end of his turn in order to not take damage from the rack. As it turns out, I never boarded them in…. oh well I guess I didn’t need them anyways.
6-3
I place 44th out of 258 players even after starting the day out in the 0-2 bracket.
As you can tell my list is more streamlined when comparing it to Belfatto’s list. When miracles got spoiled we discussed how the miracle mechanic was insane and how I thought the deck to beat in legacy would be a UW landstill list with terminus and entreat the angels. Belfatto was insistent on banishing stroke and temporal mastery making the cut too but I was more hesitant to agree. We talk about what would be the optimal list for miracles and I believed it was something with counterbalance because of the natural combo with top. But we both agreed that slamming a terminus into a standstill is backbreaking for an opponent.
Flash forward a couple of weeks and Belfatto ran his list at a local legacy tournament for an imperial seal. I took a look at his list and saw it with basically 4 of every miracle including 4 stroke, 4 mastery, 4 terminus, and I think 3-4 entreat the angels. I again expressed how I didn’t like the stroke or the mastery but Belfatto is kind of stubborn and disregarded it. I couldn’t play in the tournament because of a friend scheduling his wedding on the same date, but after the wedding I headed up to the store to check out what was going on. I was surprised to see Belfatto in the top 4 playing his “dedicated” miracles list. His list hasn’t changed much besides the tutor package and cutting some of the miracles. 2 Stroke, 3 Mastery, 3 Entreat, and 4 Terminus.
The following weeks we discussed the sideboard and I told him about porphyry nodes. He looked at it and said, “why not play culling scales?” I saw that it was 3 mana and I didn’t like it. It targets permanents where nodes doesn’t making it a house against mongeese and geist of saint trafts. It also wrecks Maverick and other creature based aggro decks for only one white mana compared to three. However, in typical Belfatto fashion, this weekend I understood why culling scales was so good and it’s because you can target your top with it and draw with your top making it so that you never have to sac it unlike the nodes. I saw him do this to a Maverick opponent and his opponent was completely locked out. I believe when I tune the list again I am going to be running a split between the two cards as culling scales can be good against other non-aggro decks.
The kill conditions in our decks are also different. I elected to go with Mishra’s factory due to the synergy they have with Humility, as well as snapcaster mage, Jace, and clique. In his deck, it relies heavily on winning with either a Jace or an entreat the angels and I did not want to stuck with only 6 win cons.
The debate with Factories and Wasteland is also very deck dependent. They both can win you games and as for which I think is better, it depends on what you are more comfortable with. I experimented with a UW miracle landstill deck that ran both a few weeks ago and deemed that it was too many colorless sources. However, a 3/2 split may not be a bad thing especially with crucible of worlds which I opted not to play as I only ran 3 factories. If you are playing wastelands then you almost have to play crucible of worlds.
I still feel like stroke should be cut or played as just a one of. It’s a good card but your hands will get awkward when you have a ton of miracles and no brainstorm. The masteries have grown on me a little but I would not play more than two. It definitely can help you accelerate you in the early game and reverse a mulligan but it still seems like casting one without a planeswalker or something to attack is not very exciting and what’s the point in playing an explore over a snapcaster mage?
As for the enlightened tutor package, I ended up cutting it because of the Surgical Extractions. I felt while running snapcaster mage that I should be running Surgical Extractions instead of relic of progenitus which is also very good on it's own. Because of that it left me with too few artifact and enchantments to actually play the tutor package and I opted to just run more humilitry, nodes, and spell pierce.
Anyways, I’m glad Belfatto did very well all weekend and my deck performed amazingly after round 2 for me even though I finished building it the day of at 6:00am.
@Fade
Nice report and great list. Congrats on your finish! Porphyry Nodes seem to be the attention catcher here, as I've never used them.
I've upped my Mishra's Factory count to 4, trying to get a confirmation as to whether it burdens the manabase stability or not. So far so good, and I've been enjoying the after-terminus beating it provides. I think I'll go with this route and not play with Wastelands.
Well, with (Vial) Merfolk no longer a pillar of the format anymore, Standstill does get a bit stronger. Expect (Vial) Goblins with Cavern of Souls to make a comeback at some point, though.Quote:
But we both agreed that slamming a terminus into a standstill is backbreaking for an opponent.
My issue with Standstill is still the speed of the format. Most aggro decks these decks have a ton of 1-drops, and decks with larger cc creatures usually have ramp to accelerate them out. This is usually coupled by 4 Wastelands. This means you literally need to hit a Terminus to be able to reliably drop a Standstill.
My comparison with Standstill has always been Counterbalance. Both spells are two mana blue enchantments. Both spells create card advantage. The difference being Standstill is immediate CA when broken, whereas Counterbalance is incrimental advantage over the course of the game. Neither card will bring you back from a bad position (i.e the opponent has doods on the board), but Standstill is literally uncastable in those positions while Counterbalance is, and Counterbalance can help stop the bleeding by preventing more damage from being done (i.e more doods being put into play). Standstill is a great overall card, but I feel as though Counterbalance improves signicantly more matchups, specifically some typically bad matchups like Burn, Storm (Tendrils or Tide), etc.
I really don't think running both engines (Standstill and Counterbalance) in the same deck is necessary, unless the metagame is control heavy. In which case, both would be really good. Right now though, it seems overkill.
That's my take on that issue, though. I haven't played with Standstills in this deck since I merged it out of the U/W Landstill thread in 2008 (I think), so maybe it's time to revisit that plan again. I am running Factory again, so it wouldn't require as many changes to do so.
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I want to repeat my point I made a long time ago that Temporal Mastery is really stupid for this deck. What does it do here, really? I'd much rather run Crucible than Explore, and unless I have a Jace on the board to tick a counter onto, it seems meh. If TM had a home, it would be in RUG or Merfolk or something like that, and even those decks aren't running it. It's simply unecessary, and it's going to lower overall consistency.
Regarding Banishing Stroke, the card is solid, but there are a few reasons I prefer O Ring. First of all, you can't go tossing in a bunch of Miracle cards and expect to maintain a strong Counterbalance curve (Entreat being an exception since it's 3cc). O Ring being 3cc may be slower in effect vs Stroke, but it improves the Counterbalance curve significantly. Secondly, overloading on Miracle's can backfire in games where you start with a few of them dead in hand and don't find a Brainstorm or resolve a Jace in time. I also like that O Ring deals with Emrakul, which has been seeing more play lately. Still though, Stroke is a solid card, and could replace O Ring for those who don't care about their 3cc spell count for Counterbalance (or those that don't run Counterbalance at all).
Regarding Clique, the 1/1 maindeck/sideboard split looks very promising. I may playtest that config at some point, since it gives the deck additional tools for dealing with Show and Tell decks, while being solid against the rest of the field.