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Well done anyway i think that painter stone is not a pretty bad option but what i really think is that we need a second win condition to painter stone. Jace could be a good one, dark tezzetet could be another or the old and good boy phyrexian dreadnought is another nice one now that we have spellskite!
I have been playing this deck for awhile and my current alternate win condition is Wurmcoil. I am, however, running 3 grim monolith and 3 transmute artifact to help enable that and speed up the combo.
I am considering adding in Tezzeret the Seeker to help enable broken plays. Currently, I am having a lot of trouble with Esperblade and Omni-Tell (I guess somewhat obviously). I am trying to decide on the best win condition game 2 against OmniTell whether it be just adding in the crypt effects x3-4 or actually changing around the primary win condition to a different combo, or just becoming a more grindy control deck with wurmcoils and planeswalkers or crucibles and mindslaver lock.
Anyone have thoughts on a prescribed route for that MU. I know it is going to be the worst MU overall when they are as fast as us (or faster) and their combo is makes them immune to ours.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bignasty197
What is your experience with the single LED? How often did you really use it? And how often did you search it with Transmute Artifact?
Just asking since I like this version of the deck and am wondering if it makes sense to buy this single LED or not.
The LED was really good. I was skeptical about it at first until I started playing with it and seeing what it could do. It opens you up to more turn 2-3 kills by just having it sometimes. I have turn 1'd people at my LGS before randomly-(Ancient Tomb, Grim Monolith, Painter, Stone, LED, grind you). It is mostly just free mana when you need it and that is what this deck is hungry for. You can do so many things in conjunction with Welder also. Welder and Stone in play, crack LED dumping Painter into the yard weld out a land for Painter and kill them. I had a situation where I was playing against Affinity and he was swinging for lethal with Etched Champion/Cranial Plating while I had a Welder and LED in play with a Wurmcoil in hand. I dumped the Wurmcoil to LED and welded it in to block and ultimately seal the game. Another situation that was way less cool against Goblins, I had Ensaring Bridge in play but 4 cards in hand while looking at a lethal attack to a bunch of 1/1s and 2 Piledrivers. I couldn't play everything out in my hand but I spun top and found LED to pitch my hand and stay alive. I found the kill a few turns later. So, yeah, randomly good. As far as searching it up with TA, I only did that sometimes because I usually wanted a combo piece for the kill that turn. There were sometimes when I needed 1 mana to go off while I was holding TA and could just Transmute a land for LED and win. I usually Intuitioned or Trinket Maged for LED. I think the deck is viable without it, but if LED is available to you then it should certainly be in the 60. Sorry for the lengthy response, it is hard to explain how useful LED actually is. Final note, I don't think this deck is in the best position right now with all the Abrupt Decays running around. Spellskite helps out quite a bit, but I don't see this deck making a sizable comeback anytime soon. I will say that I am working on a Grixis list with Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas and Baleful Strix. When I figure it out, I'll post it.Quote:
Originally Posted by kranger
This was me! I wrote an article about the list, though it is mostly an introduction to people unfamiliar with painter, you guys might find it interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook
You guys also seem to be talking about a list that is pretty similar to mine in the thread at the moment, and let me just say, I think bignasty is absolutely correct about 1x LED, especially because it makes a bunch of intuition piles insta-win as opposed to pass the turn win piles.
I would suggest with a list running 4 Transmute 3+ intuition to run 2 Wurmcoils so you can intuition and guarantee one gets to the yard, and also so that even if you draw one you can transmute into the other.
Wurmcoil was an all-star for me against all the tempo decks all day at the scg open, as they mostly don't have any ways to kill it and it single-handedly races their deck.
I live in the Los Angeles area and the meta is a bit wonky here. I'm wondering how Painter would fare in the competitive scene now that team america and jund builds are running about? I play MUD currently but plan to switch over to either painter or a more staxy version of it. It seems very consistent and I'd love to try it out if it means I can surprise people and see it do well.
Jund is a joke 95% of the time against my list at least. You know how in modern Jund can't beat Wurmcoil engine, well when it comes down on turn 3 this is doubly true. When you say team america it is a little bit harder, it depends a lot on what sort of BUG build we are talking about. In my experience vs a tempo version we are at about 50 %. If our opponent is more controlling, and especially if they are running Pernicious Deed, that % get's much worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bionitech
I really liked the article!Quote:
Originally Posted by merfolkotpt
Have you considered playing Sensei's Divining Top? It helps you find the combo parts, protects your threats from discard (floating them on top of your library), enables metalcraft for Mox Opal, and comboes with Goblin Welder as a draw engine (tap top, then sac it to welder in response).
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTylerGalt
I have tested as many as 3 Tops, but the issue really comes down to what to cut. If you are cutting tutors, it seems bad because top is pretty slow (for a 1 mana spell) at doing what you want, which is finding a piece quickly. If you cut combo pieces, welders, or Wurmcoils it doesn't seem like you are gaining enough. You could cut brainstorm but the blue count is pretty low for Force when you don;t have a painter on blue in play.
I like top in a grindier build with planeswalkers, trinket mage, maybe Tfk and more counters, however, that build has a very different approach than transmute. It might be right for some metas, and can be fun, but in my experience you get eaten alive by tempo decks with a build like that, YMMV.
I can post a list that splashed black for bob in addition to running Baleful strix and spellskite in the 75 that had pretty much all the neat tricks in it, but it just didn't feel as powerful to me as the version from the article.
Grindy List (iffy mana):
4 Painter's Servant
3 Grindstone
4 Goblin Welder
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Dark Confidant
4 Intuition
4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Mox Opal
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
1 Mountain
2 Great Furnace
2 Seat of the Synod
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
SB: 4 Baleful Strix
SB: 3 Spellskite
SB: 3 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge
I cant agree with not running Top and Welder in the same deck. The filtering it provides is so much more important than Transmute Artifact. I would run 4 Tops before considering to run the first TA.
TA is a tutor while top is a filterer. They serve different purposes. I'm not really in a position to make the comparison but maybe Jacob can say something about it.
Also, are there any advantages of running this build over imperial painter? Budget concerns aside.
This deck protects and assembles the combo better. Imperial Painter much like Dragon Stompy is whatever your opening 7 has to offer. If they can counter your Blood Moon effect, or fetch basics, you'll have a hard time against removal.Quote:
Originally Posted by movingtonewao
Still, I think Imperial Painter is better suited against the new BGx metagame (due to unstable three color manabases, of course).
Played in a Legacy Daily Event tonite with my old take on Painter. The SB was a little wonky because I refuse to drop 8 tix on Spellskites. Anyways, take from it what you will:
http://www.twitch.tv/jkory/b/363811902
Went 2-2
Round 1 - Merfolk (2-1)
Round 2 - Death & Taxes (2-1)
Round 3 - Junk (0-2)
Round 4 - Zoo (1-2)
In the Junk matchup (Abrupt Decay) I was losing to Leyline of Sanctity, rather than Abrupt Decay.
Spellskite > Zoo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Just wanted to say I played around with your list a little bit and it's really awesome. I haven't lost a match to any BUG list, RUG Tempo or Stoneblade. I did however go -1 Wurmcoil, -1 REB, -1 Intuition, +3 Top. I think it is too good to not be included. Also, I can't really agree on the two Wurmcoils mainboard (I did put a second one in the side though). If you have one in your hand, but want to Transmute for one, you can just as easily hardcast it, assuming that you would Transmute with Grim Monolith. The only situation would really be with an active Welder out and Intuion, in which case you can normally just combo kill them.Quote:
Originally Posted by merfolkotpt
Just wanted to ask:
.) How much do you value the maindeck Tormod's Crypt? I think I might accept the fact that this deck looses to SnT preboard and rather have the extra slot for something else.
.) What decks do you board in Ensnaring Bridge against? Apart from the obvious SnT, I haven't used it so far.
.) In general, what do you usually board out? I am relatively new to combo, so I struggle with what to to take out usually. I think I mostly boarded out the one off LED, because I thought the speed is not that neccessary G2, don't know if that's correct. I never took out any tutors, sometimes the 4th combo pieces (especially if I brought the 2nd Wurmcoil), and mostly some amount of FoW (If i bring in some other form of protection, like Spellskite).
.) Lastly, a rules question regarding Transmute Artifact: Am I correct assuming that I have to float mana from Grim Monolith when casting Transmute Artifact (before it resolves) if my intention is to sac it, meaning that if it gets countered, I 'loose' the 3 Monolith mana (unless I can use it otherwise)?
Man, -1 wurmcoil does not seem great to me, i was looking for room to go up to 3 in the main. Card is so good against all flavors of Bug and Rug. They just can't answer it, where as with active welder and intuition if i go for the combo, i am just walking into so many cards. Personal preference matters though.
I think that while you don't have a great chance game 1 against SnT, it is better than no chance at all, and tormod's crypt has been surprisingly good for me. It is a fine card against Delver decks with Nimble mongoose, it does some work against snapcasters, and honestly it turns on Mox Opal a fair amount of the time. That being said I have considered cutting it a couple times so I can't blame you for considering, the opportunity cost just seems relatively good to me, as we have a bunch of ways to find it if need be.Quote:
Originally Posted by TkDodo
There are several MUs where I have sided it in, but it depends a lot on MUs and what not. Generally, merfolk literally cannot beat the card, which is fine, though we should probably beat them anyway. Additionally, I think it can be ok against various delver decks, though usually other sideboard cards take priority. Finally, I side in alot of cards against SnT since g1 is so bad and I think being able to consistently win game 2 and 3 is really important.Quote:
Originally Posted by TkDodo
I board out different things depending on the specifics of game 1, but I board out Force of will alot, especially against the more controlling decks or any of the "fair" decks. Against other blue decks I think flusterstorm and spellskite do more work than force of will does. Additionally, I board out LED against blue decks a fair amount of the time. I sometimes board out 1 grindstone especially if they have no way to interact with my non-creature artifacts. Depending on the MU (i am thinking SnT here) I board out all the wurmcoils and some of the transmutes/monoliths. Wurmcoil isn't very good in the MU and we are definitely the control in that one so we can afford to trade some of our two for tutors against ourselves for other cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by TkDodo
You are correct, although it is important to note that 3 mana is only one less than it takes to untap a grim monolith, and you only have to sacrifice if transmute resolves, so generally if TA gets countered i just untap. This is also super relevant with LED, as it means you can't use LED mana to pay the rest of a cost with TA unless you break it in response to casting TA. Grim mana can pay for TA if another artifact is sacrificed, but LED can not.Quote:
Originally Posted by TkDodo
This seemed weird to me too, but testing has made me go the other way, it just makes you too slow. While it has advantages against slower controlling blue decks, anything in the tempo zone beats us when we are using our mana for this instead of tutoring to win the game. Welder plus top is good, welder plus transmute is insane.Quote:
I cant agree with not running Top and Welder in the same deck. The filtering it provides is so much more important than Transmute Artifact. I would run 4 Tops before considering to run the first TA.
Imperial painter is a very different style and one i did not like. Blue is the big advantage, we are playing in a format with a lot of banned tutors and we get to play (up to) 8 really strong ones. Slower less versatile ones, to me, just are not as good. That being said I think imperial painter is a real strong deck, with a very different more controlling approach, so it depends on your meta a lot. In a wide open meta, i always opt for more combo over more control.Quote:
Also, are there any advantages of running this build over imperial painter?
Uh, I somehow missed that you answered my questions ...
I agree with almost everything you say, except maybe the second Wurmcoil. If they can't beat one, what do you need a second one for? With an active Welder, you can also go Painter, Stone, Wurmcoil. They will give you Wurmcoil, but now they have to deal with a hardcast Wurmcoil and the combo in at most two turns.
On another note, I've been thinking about a different target than Wurmcoil. Has anyone thought about Batterskull? The good thing is: It costs you no extra mana if you transmute away a Grim Monolith. The bad news: The token dies to Decay, making it difficult to win a life total race if you are already behind. Also, it does not do such great things with Welder :/
I was mainly looking for an artifact wincon that costs 5, because its much easier to transmute. Batterskull is the best I could come up with.
For reference, here is the list I'm currently testing. I've had great results in testing so far (albeit on Cockatrice only), and I strongly consider taking it to GP Strassbourg. If SnT weren't such a miserable MU ...
3 Grim Monolith
4 Grindstone
1 Lion's Eye Diamon
2 Mox Opal
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
1 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Intuition
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
4 Transmute Artifact
3 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Great Furnace
2 Volcanic Island
SB:
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Spellskite
1 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Blood Moon
3 Counterbalance
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
Hello everyone,
this is my first reply on The Source although I'm an old follower of the Painter's thread. I started considering the deck as a solid option for the next BoM and I want to look at your opinions in order to reach an almost perfect list :tongue: Actually, I think Jacob's 75 were a really nice starting point. After some heavy testing and minor changes, these are my 76! (lol):
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Great Furnace
3 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
3 Grim Monolith
2 Mox Opal
4 Force of Will
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Spellskite
3 Transmute Artifact
4 Brainstorm
2 Intuition
4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
2 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB: 3 Divert
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
Deck-building decissions worth to highlight:
1- Intuition:the card is great, but with all these deathrite shaman walking around I feel like a heavily dependant graveyard deck should not be the best option. Since 4x Welder are a must in the deck, I think 2 Intuition is just fair enough.
2- LED yes / LED no discussions: Tested with and without LED and this is my conclusion: the singleton is no worth it. 95% of times when you go Intuition for LED/Painter/Stone pile before welding you can go for LED/Painter/Monolith. Perhaps you can go to the second one even more times because of the Monolith don't need to be sacrified. Slots in the deck are really precious :-) and I found that LED just speeds up some MU like combo or super aggro and was just a tool to enable the all-in mode that normally it is not needed.
3 - Protection: 4 Force + 3 Pyro do not seem enough for me. Spellskite was just the MVP of the deck on the testing post sideboard. It's an artifact (so it can be transmuted if needed), protects from decay, block little monsters as Moongoose, Lackey, Thalia, etc... Deserves maindeck slots.
4 - Win Con: 100% agreed with running the 2xWurmcoils. I don't know if it's just me, but I draw one very often. (Same thing happens in Vintage with colossus, lol). They are not that hard to cast using Monoliths, and the card is just nuts against every "fair deck" not running Swords to Plowshares. Sometimes we are forced to win beatdown mode (facing needle, Emrakul, active qasalis, etc) and not beeing able to go Intuition for two Wurmcoils or Transmute Monolith into one just because the card is in our hand I think it is just not affordable.
Tezzeret: Sometimes it's broken, sometimes is just really hard to cast. These are the Intuitions slots and I think it is a really decent tutor and win con all together. It's usually a 2 turns clock against every combo deck playing Emrakul wich are the worst pairings of the deck. In my opinion and including Tezz gives you a lot more ways to win instead of the mill effect. The card also works amazing in the late game MU vs control decks such UW or BUG control decks.
Sideboard:
Did anyone tested Glen-Elendra Archmage? I don' t feel like Llawan must be anymore on the sideboard, I barely side them in. Glen-Elendra is great against any combo deck, and others with lots of spot removal.
To be honest I still haven't found a sideboard I feel confident with but I' m sure about one thing. 3xDivert are here to stay. Hymns are everywhere! :-(
Hi 4n1m4,
Welcome to the source and thanks for your thoughts.
First off, I’m a true believer in 60 card decks, especially when it comes to combo. We want to draw our combo pieces naturally as often as possible, and having that 61st card will reduce our chances to do so.
I don’t think we are heavily GY dependent just because of Intuition. If there is a card in our deck that makes us depend on the GY, it’s Welder. More often than not, I see Intuition as a 3 mana instant speed Demonic Tutor going for one specific card. I think you mostly only go for piles with different cards if you have an active Welder out, so most of the time, it will be 3x [insert missing card here]. 2x Intuition is the minimum I would do as well. I have 3 and sometimes board one out, with the reason being 1) Surgical Extraction and 2) 3 mana being a lot sometimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4n1m4
I agree on the LED issue. In my testing of 50+ matches, LED has been useful like 2 or 3 times. Mostly, I was mana screwed and just went all-in with LED because I had no other choice and it happened to work. Space is tight and these fringe cases should not be a reason to play a specific card. I also boarded it out 95% of the time, because postboard games tend to be much slower anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4n1m4
Don’t forget our “main” piece of protection: Goblin Welder. He protects us from discard, counterspells and removal that’s not Swords to Plowshares. Spellskite is great in certain matchups (read: decks relying on Lightning Bolt), but a tad slow for the maindeck. I think I want to try Misdirection in the main deck first, since its for free and great against Decay and Hymn. Imo the main deck is all about speed. We can go for more protection post board.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4n1m4
I honestly don’t get it. If you want to Transmute Grim Monolith away for a Wurmcoil but can’t because your 1-of is in your hand, just hardcast it !? It will cost you 6 mana no matter what (UU for Transmute, and 4 to pay the difference).Quote:
Originally Posted by 4n1m4
The Intuition story sounds true in theory, but it never came up for me in practice. You do need an active Welder, which is unlikely against Jund or BUG or RUG in the first place, because any decent Player will kill Welder on sight. I did go for Painter/Stone/Wurmcoil once against RUG, he gave me Wurmcoil, I hardcast it to stabilize and combo a couple turns later.
Long story short: Before playing 3 Transmute, 2 Wurmcoil, I would do 4 Transmute, 1 Wurmcoil every day. The spots where you draw a Wurmcoil wishing it was a Tutor for the combo will out weight the fringe spots where you need a second Wurmcoil.
Tezzert sounds interesting, and his ultimate is definitely another nice angle of attack. It would be interesting to know how hard he really is to cast. I found out that sometimes a timely Wasteland from our opponent or dazing a Grim Monolith or something along those lines can really screw us up. On the other hand, how about Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas? Black mana would be an issue, but he only costs 4 and his abilities look decent overall.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4n1m4
Finally, I think Nihil Spellbomb is just really greedy in your list. You can only produce black with Mox Opal, so you won’t cantrip reliably. Crypt seems way better – one mana will make the difference very often.
I would also love to find room for a one off Academy Ruins as the 5th Goblin Welder. People tend to Wasteland our Sol Lands anyway, so it might have a higher chance to survive. It should be great against decks without Wasteland and it makes Intuition an even more attractive option. It’s just that I love the mana base the way it is and can’t convince myself to change anything.
Glen-Elendra does not look like it’s what this deck needs. It will cost you 3UU to cast her and being able to counter something this turn, so I think it’s way too slow against combo. I would also up your GY hate count and your Blood Moon count to 3, since it’s the magic number for Intuition. Against Dredge for instance, I went Crypt-Crypt-Crypt on Turn 2 a ton to slow them down.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4n1m4