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Thx for the replies!
The snapcaster/LW additions are really interesting. I didn't even think of those.
Anyway since there aren't a lot of aggro or combo decks in my meta lately I'm definitely going to do some more testing/research with a similar list.
Deck feateured by Caleb again on Channelfireball:
4-4 vs RUG
http://www.channelfireball.com/home/...let-rug-vs-gb/
Actually it was a more controllish RUG build, no Delvers.
Yea Next Level Blue, but I feel like Nic Fit is pretty favored in this match up versus both Delver and then higher curve varieties of RUG. I think NLB has better game than Delver RUG, due to having basics and Jace, but they don't put up that crazy of a clock and a Veteran Explorers' trigger pushes past most of the tempo strategy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
Really I think this deck plays control better than most of the Blue control lists, outside it's ability to interact with Combo decks. I've been playing Maverick alot lately and have hit that "wall" where versus fair decks I feel totally in the game, versus Belcher, ANT, Show and Tell, etc, not having Force is a hard liability to overcome.
Actually it's Next Level ***** but I'm nit picking here :).Quote:
Originally Posted by from Cairo
Out of the recent suggestions for this deck I find a single Doran the most intriguing. It has applications by hitting three creatures in a tough archetype, taking 1 damage per swing from V. Clique, 2 per delver and 1 per snapcaster.
Here's my current build of Nic Fit:Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
// Lands
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [JGC] Windswept Heath
2 [B] Bayou
4 [SOM] Forest
2 [US] Phyrexian Tower
5 [BD] Swamp
// Creatures
3 [FNM] Eternal Witness
2 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
4 [CMD] Veteran Explorer
1 [V11] Progenitus
3 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor
1 [FNM] Kitchen Finks
1 [UL] Deranged Hermit
1 [ON] Gigapede
// Spells
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [JGC] Natural Order
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
4 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
2 [AP] Pernicious Deed
Currently the only "flex" slots are Deranged Hermit (not sure if it's good enough to be a GSZ target/alternate NO target), the 2nd Thrun and Kitchen Finks. One of these cards might be better off as the Ooze or Spiritmonger (a GSZ'able 6/6 with regeneration for 5 is not bad). But besides those slots, the deck has been perfect. I don't play Grave Titan because Persecutor has been fine at doing virtually the same role, and there's no way to search for Grave Titan. I tried playing Living Wish as a 3-of for a while, but it was too slow.
Qweerios' build was pretty brilliant, but I made some changes: First, 2 Phyrexian Tower instead of 1. I realized I was almost always happy to see Phyrexian Tower. It's pretty amazing and enables plays like landing a turn 2 Progenitus or double Hymn and a Cabal Therapy on turn 2.
I know you guys might be skeptical of the lower curve, curving out at 4-5 mana (or 6 if you count GSZ'ing for Gigapede/Heritage Druid), but it's worked incredibly well, making hands without Explorer smoother, and making hands with it just plain explosive. The 3 Witnesses have been excellent and it's a perfect card for Veteran Explorer, as you can choose a target for E-Witness based on how much mana you have. Plus, hitting people with 2x Hymns is insane.
I'm now convinced that Abyssal Persecutor is one of the most underrated creatures in Legacy. He's been just fantastic in this deck, and flying is huge, especially when Cliques and Delvers are more common now than ever. Costing 4 mana is the main reason to use him over Grave Titan, though. I'm afraid Grave Titan might be a bit on the win-more side since he comes out so much later. Removing Persecutor has never been a problem. Like I said, a flying 6/6 that comes out on turn 2 or 3 even without Explorer is game-winning.
Gigapede is also awesome as a GSZ target. Shroud+resilience has been great. Gigapede, Thrun and Progenitus are the most resilient creatures in the game, so I run them all. Gigapede and and Thrun being immune to spot removal is extremely helpful, especially vs. Jace. Thrun's regeneration is randomly useful for surviving Deeds and whatever else.
The biggest change I made from Qweerios' list is adding a full 4 Natural Order, and it's been a great choice. I don't see any reason not to play a card that says "I win in two turns" in a deck that plays plenty of green creatures, just remember to grab a Dryad Arbor off a fetch in case you need some fodder for Natural Order (I frequently EOT grab Dryad Arbor then cast NO), or grab a Dryad Arbor in response to their Edict. Some people run 3 NO. That's a mistake. Resolving NO is the easiest way to win, so run 4. Disruption from Cabal Therapy + Hymn with Natural Order means the deck can race burn, combo, Elves, etc. Playing Natural Order often comes down to this: Force of Will? No? You lose. Adding more speed to a slow deck has worked wonders for me.
Hymn is amazing. I don't run white so I can comfortably run lots of BB and GG costs, such as Thrun, Persecutor, Hymn, NO, and Witness. Don't run less than 4 Hymn because its a card that says "Target player mulligans twice." It does a fantastic job of attacking the other player's resources and it just gets better with Therapy. If you're going to hit a resource, hit it hard.. Plus, fewer cards in hands + Legacy's low curve=they can get fewer benefits from Explorer. Hymn is also the saving grace for fast decks like burn and combo.
Finally, since Deed can't hit Planeswalkers, I run 4 Pulse and they've worked excellently.
Thoughts/criticisms?
@Greenpoe
I like the idea of incorporating Natural Order into the deck. It seems like a faster "combo finish" after stripping an opponents hand with Therapys and Hymns.
I'm not sure I'm on board with the 2nd Thrun and the additional Gigapede. These seem sort of superfluous when you have GSZ to fetch Thrun if you want it and NO -> Progenitus for finishers. I mean with 4 GSZ, 4 NO and a Thrun that's 9 midgame cards to put a Shroud guy on the table, under what circumstances are you looking for that number to be increased to 11?
I think Sensei's Divining Top is worth running at least as a 1-of, I'd probably run 2. Having some manipulation can really help find what you need, especially with many slots devoted to toolbox cards and disruption. I understand it getting the nod over Sylvan Library for it's superior interaction with Pernicious Deed.
@ Nic Fit discussion in general
I sort of like the idea of Avenger of Zendikar as an alt NO target in the GB build It can fill the Deranged Hermit role pretty well and isn't totally out of the realm of GSZ in the late game.
For the Sideboard vs. Delver it is either Dead Weight or Disfigure. Dead Weight is better when it can be used to permanently shrink other targets like Tarmogoyf. Disfigure is better when used to kill a Vendillion Clique / Snapcaster / Mindcensor / Mother of Runes.
Primeval Titan / Stronghold is very good. With Stronghold+Witness on Deed/Pulse/Swords to Plowshares you can control the lategame. A nice bonus is that Scavenging Ooze even enables you to destroy their recursion in G1 so you can beat the very late game without investing any slots. Wasteland is very bad if drawn though and I am not sure if it is worth it.
Jace/SFM is probably the hardest matchup, I agree with that. For the Artifact/Enchantment removal I just run Wickerbough Elder. I am of the opinion that creatures have to give value in this type of deck so if they Sword a creature they get 2-for-1-ed. Also Pridemage is only playable in GBw and in that deck I try to avoid 2-drops to become immune to Spell Snare.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
I also don't like Skeletal Scrying. I think Garruk, Primal Hunter will be more reliable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
I play a 3rd Top over the Skeletal Scrying in my version of Caleb's current list. The deck has enough shuffle effects to where having an active top lets you land haymaker after haymaker against anything midrange or control, and there's always ways to shuffle away a duplicate Top if you draw one.
It really helps you dig out of the 'few lands in play, 5-6cmc bomb in hand' predicament that the deck often has and really helps find answers lategame when you do have the mana but nothing to do with it. For examples of these kind of games, see the video series posted on CFB this week. One thing to keep in mind is that, drawing naturally without Explorer ramp, it is going to take a million years of Legacy Time to get to six mana. Top at least gives you a way of getting to your land if you run into a stifle on Explorer or spell snare on the GSZ to get an Explorer.
Top, to me, feels to me like the fourth best card in the deck , behind Cabal Therapy (1st), Explorer (2nd), and GSZ (3rd).
Other thoughts:
- I can't get behind Primeval Titan vs. Grave Titan, but at the same time I am not too big on Grave Titan either. Yes, red/blue decks can't really usually deal with him, but I rarely actually need him to win. Once you get four or five power worth of utility creatures (Finks, Witness, Ooze) beating down and they have one or no cards left in hand, it's over. When you do need an army Deranged Hermit delivers.
That being said, I haven't cut a Grave Titan from Caleb's list, though, because of the huge numbers of concession-upon-resolution Grave Titan gets.
Primeval Titan isn't bad though. If you aren't going to play enough Tops in the deck it's better than Grave Titan since you at least with Volrath's Stronghold you are always drawing gas. I can't get behind the Wasteland though, the only thing you want a Wasteland to deal with really is a Riptide Lab and against that you just eat their graveyard with Ooze.
- Recurring Nightmare shouldn't be cut. It's a reusable mana-dump for card advantage in this deck, and all the deck really wants to do in the lategame is use its large amounts of mana in some fashion. It comes online usually after blue decks have expended their countermagic. Even without Rector you don't need more than one if you run enough Tops to find it in the super-late game after you've dragged out half the land from your deck. It's always the best last card in your hand.
- I've had better success vs. combo boarding in a large discard package (a third Hymn, some Thoughtseizes, third Liliana, a singleton Teeg) with three Extirpates. You get kinda hosed by S&T combo decks running Leyline of Sanctity (though keep in mind they cannot mull into it) and especially Belcher variants, but you at least have a clear gameplan against combo-deploy your discard spells, recur them as needed with Witness, Extirpate their business, and lock them out of drawing into a critical mass for the rest of the game with Liliana's +1.
My total SB looks like (maindeck very similar to Caleb's list)
1 Nature's Claim
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Extirpate
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Thoughtseize
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Innocent Blood
Innocent Blood is way worse vs. Bant/Maverick than running Damnation, but is insane vs. the blue/red tempo decks where you REALLY want a 1 cmc removal that you can cast early (read: play around Daze) to stop a fast Delver of Secrets/Goblin Guide or turn two Tarmogoyf (the latter being way less scary). Innocent Blood gets the nod over Ghastly Demise because it's very good vs. the Emrakul cheatyface decks.
Claim over Grip because it can be a weird and decent source of lifegain (claim your own Top) against burn decks (where you want it anyway to fight Vortex) and Batterskull is like the least scary clock in the world against this deck and there are a lot or ways maindeck to deal with it (Deed@5 into Therapy/Hymn, Wickerbough, edicts, Pulse, block with Deathtouch Zombies, etc, etc, etc.). Counterbalance, the only other reason to play Claim, is a complete joke vs. this deck.
I would rather run Scryb Ranger as a 1-of (GSZ target) in the SB than Disfigure/Dead Weight for the Delver MU. Protection from blue means it'll block their Delver, Snapcaster, and Clique all day. He can be useful vs. Jace as well since he won't get bounced. Flash means you can drop him in when they attack with the 1/1 Delver and kill it.
from Cairo, I'd say Hornet Queen is better than Avenger of Zendikar. 5 flying deathtouch creatures can swing the game in your favor at times when they're about to go lethal and Progenitus couldn't get race fast enough. The flying army is something neither Avenger nor Deranged Hermit have. Deranged Hermit hasn't been too great for me. I tried replacing the 2nd Thrun with Gaea's Revenge and she's been great, both as a NO target, GSZ target and even hardcast. Killing a full turn sooner than Progenitus has been very relevant. The pseudo-shroud is great, and uncounterable is always nice too. Just remember not to side out E-Witnesses when you're playing Natural Order.
The problem with Ranger vs. the delver decks is that it is far less consistent than versus the clique + jace decks. Against UR delver they have ~ 4 bolts, 4 chain lightnings, 3ish fire and ice, 4 grim lavamancers + 4 snapcasters to rebuy. Taking into account spell snare if we try to hardcast it, and daze or FOW for a 3 mana GSZ over a third of their deck answers our Ranger.
Edit-> I am not saying 'it dies to removal so don't run it', as that can be said for most creatures ever printed. What I am trying to say is that our trump card for the MU should not be trumped back by a third of their maindeck.
I think, green has some good cards vs Delver: Stingerfling Spider, Daybreak Ranger, Aerie Ouphies, Trophy Hunter, ...
I am currently testing a GBr build.
Here is the list:
Creatures:
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Eternal Witness
2 Flametongue Kavu
1 Grave Titan
1 Inferno Titan
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
Non-Creatures:
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate
2 Sarkhan the Mad
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Maelstrom Pulse
Lands:
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Mountain
3 Forest
3 Swamp
Sideboard:
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Duress/Thoughtseize
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Choke
Just messed around a bit and came to question: Would red be better ?
With Lightning Bolt we got reach to get the last points of life, to kill creatures, to kill Jace (!).
Flametongue is very nice with Recurring Nightmare and overall vs aggro decks.
Terminate replaces Swords/Dismember/Go for the Throat.
And Sarkhan FITs the sacrifice theme very well. Sacc Explorer and getting two lands + 5/5 Dragon ? Nice.
Inferno Titan is nice but not necessary ... I am looking for some better cards to go with this build.
SB:
Pillar vs Combo
Ancient Grudge is soooo good vs Batterskull, Sword, etc. ...
I am looking forward to test Bloodbraid Elf a bit more but I'm guessing he isn't that good when cascading into Zenith or temporary bad cards.
Greets
I think a couple cards are really getting overlooked here. First is Cursed Scroll. It comes online pretty fast if you can get at least one Explorer activation, and none of the Delver or SFM decks can deal with it pre-board. Takes care of extra mana late in the game, and can also be used to off your own Explorer if you really need to.
Second is Dungrove Elder. Guy is seriously pretty nuts. He seems to come down between 4 and 6 power, and turns late-game Explorers into bombs.
I tried Primeval and Avenger, but just wasn't that thrilled. I ether never made it to 7/8 mana, or had the game locked down by that point anyway.
I also run 3 Tops, and don't think I would cut any. In a deck where you really want to see specific combinations of cards, it's invaluable to have good card selection.
Fjedsen, if you cut Grave Titan from your list you can have only single black spells. This would allow for the trimming of 1 or 2 swamps giving you a more robust manabase at the cost of swapping a titan or adding a different bomb.
Red as 3rd color compared to white: The only white card worth playing, MD and SB, is Swords to Plowshares but it is a very good one.
Not sure how Sarkhan would perform compared to Garruk PM but I doubt he would be much better. Flametongue Kavu is an inferior version of Skinrender (sad but true) and Terminate is an inferior Path to Exile so those cards are no reason to go into red.
So it comes down to Lightning Bolt vs. Swords to Plowshares and Sideboard choices. If they have Jace and know about the Bolts they will +2 it but the option is still very good. I would still prefer Swords to Plowshares though because of Jin Gitaxias, KotR and Tombstalker. For the Sideboard I think you forgot Red Blasts. I would love to have access to those, sniping Brainstorms, Delvers; Jin Gitaxias and Merfolk is great and getting Snapcasters and Jaces on the stack even better.
White also gives you access to hardcast Pridemage if you draw into it, also Teeg and Canonist in the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
I'll also chime in that red isn't really where we want to be. Some things like Urabrask can be decent, and it does allow for some good sideboard options, but I'd like blue (for ConSphinx, Jace, and maybe Gifts), or just the standard white as better 3rd colors. Red seems the weakest to me.
Also, I'm surprised that Primal Hunter is still the gold standard amongst everyone. Relentless just feels so much better for the deck -- he's a sac outlet + powerhouse with Vet (or god forbid Rector), and he can be used to remove threats when necessary, while also supplying a clock. He also makes Master of the Wild Hunt stupid good.
I guess you're right. Red isn't that good. I was messing around, and remembered this extented list from looooong ago:
2 Mountain
6 Forest
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Treetop Village
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Wasteland
3 Swamp
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Solemn Simulacrum
3 Flametongue Kavu
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Eternal Witness
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Vampiric Tutor
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Engineered Plague
3 Duress
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Cranial Extraction
Sideboard
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Withered Wretch
1 Ravenous Baloth
1 Flametongue Kavu
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Naturalize
3 Engineered Plague
The creature base looks so synergistic with Recurring Nightmare, that I thought I could give it a chance.
I'm fine tunig the list though ;)
Clearly needs Veteran Explorer -- Solemn won't do the trick, I don't think. Otherwise, seems interesting anyway.
I'll be playing my Double Dragon version tomorrow (today?) at Jupiter. Changes include maindeck O-Ring in lieu of 1 Hymn to Tourach (shaky gut feeling about this, but Snare IS everywhere, and O-Ring -has- done work when it's been in the deck in the past), and 2 Innocent Blood, 1 Swords in the SB in place of 2 Swords and 1 Finks. We'll see how it goes. I'm optimistic about the Bloods and have come to the conclusion that 3 was too many Finks all along.