It's probably a direct swap unless you're playing Cephalid Coliseum, definitely in the build I advocated.Quote:
Originally Posted by the Thin White Duke
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It's probably a direct swap unless you're playing Cephalid Coliseum, definitely in the build I advocated.Quote:
Originally Posted by the Thin White Duke
Now that Mental Misstep has been banned, I can't see this variant of Dredge thriving for much longer. It's been a great few months, and hopefully one day I'll be able to sleeve it up again, but for the near future, I'm not seeing it as better than a traditional Putrid Imp/Tireless Tribe list (here's hoping I look like a defeatist jackass in a few weeks). I'm probably going to run it one last time this Thursday now that I've completed my set of LEDs, with a full, detailed report.
Well, you're right in that it's not a clear victor over Deep Analysis in mana builds, but I was judging the card from a Manaless perspective, in which it almost seems strictly better.Quote:
Originally Posted by ajfirecracker
Another important thing to note is that Desperate Ravings is an instant, meaning you can cast it before Gitaxian Probe/any Street Wraith activations resolve on an all-in LED turn. Not only does this help ensure that SW/GP will in fact dredge cards instead of draw if you brick, it potentially increases the dredge-amplitude of turn one Street Wraiths and Gitaxian Probes, and, therefore, any later draw steps.
I actually disagree. All Misstep really did was shut off cards like Putrid Imp, Tireless Tribe, and Breakthrough@1, but those cards already had susceptibility to Daze, Force, Counterbalance@1, Swords to Plowshares, etc even without Misstep around. Dredge has basically put up the same numbers it always has even during Misstep's short run, but I'm not so sure the viability of this deck has been damaged in any way. Fundamentally, they're still the same deck, except Manaless Dredge doesn't pack it in to relegated counter-magic - which will potentially make a comeback in the format now that Storm has a chance to thrive. It is also less dependent on its mulligans, which traditional Dredge is notorious for.Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinTrudeau
I just see Control decks playing their role a they always have and with Misstep gone, look for the format to redevelop itself as it once was with some strong brewing all across the board. I still like not casting spells and limiting the interaction within the game, so I think Manaless Dredge has just as much potential now even more than it did before. Misstep's prevalence in the format obviously neutered the viability of traditional Dredge, but I don't think it will affect its counterpart as far as playability is concerned.
If you seek proof, look no further than what 4eak just recently accomplished. He walked into a field of Missteps and won the entire event using cards like Breakthrough and Careful Study - without going overboard on the one-drop selection. He could play the DDD route if he wanted to, and I'm sure a few wins were dedicated to this strategy on his way to First Place. That strategy seems fine even now, at least to me.
You're probably right, just a knee-jerk reaction on my part due to a possible resurgence of fast combo decks (I said that knowing full well that the deck actually has a decent shot against storm with a dedicated sideboard and/or an LED maindeck). We definitely won't know a thing until the metagame shapes out.
Well the thing is, with the potential resurgence of Storm Combo, look for decks like Merfolk and Counterbalance back in the mix as a safe and legitimate meta call. You might even see Mono Blue Control back in the mix now that Control can be Control again without having to worry about the opposing deck running Misstep against it. I just see Control players being extremely happy the window of opportunity is there to limit opposing decks from using its own weapon against it, even if it means losing Misstep from its own list - effectively 'canceling' out its own utility.Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinTrudeau
And as we know, Control is not going to stop any form of Dredge - Manaless or Traditional (less the former) - from doing what it does. It's just a safe bet at this point. But then again, who knows.
Agreed, the banning of Mental Misstep is a good thing for Manaless Dredge if for no other reason Manaless Dredge can play Phyrexian Probe.
I've been thinking about Desperate Ravings, is the fundamental turn of Dredge accelerated if instead of replacing Deep Analysis, Desperate Ravings supliments it to 8x? I mean if Serum Powder is slowing the deck down (and I'm not necessarily admitting to that) how much does 2xing the chance of drawing LED + Flashback speed it up?
Edit: Uh, I think I'm on to something, because 4xSerum Powder, Lion's Eye Diamond, Deep Analysis and Desperate Ravings seems theoretically superior to the original Manaless Dredge lists with Cephalid Coliseum (the CC -> DA chain was a bit win more) because we can aggressively mull into LED + Flashback in our opener and never "brick" Cephalid Coliseum after dropping below 7 cards for Threshold compared to just casting Desperate Ravings now.
Actually, I can't help but think that manaless will be a lot less viable with Mental Misstep gone.
While it's true that it can still beat all the control decks like nothing, the vastly increasing number of storm combo decks will keep this deck in check. Also, the big advantage this deck had over the mana builds is now a lot less a factor. And even with MM the mana builds still had the edge over manaless in tournaments.
It's also true that Morrissey won the SCG with a Dredge deck that always DDDs, but still. That's a hybrid list and this is manaless. That's a huge difference. If you read through his tournament report, you'll not only notice that he won many games by DDDing, but also that he would never have made top 8 if he didn't have all that effective anti hate in his board. Something manaless still can't do at all (at least not in the fashion of mana builds).
That's actually what I always said and what kept me kinda away from a totally manaless version. You can't really win a tounrnament in a somewhat prepared metagame without Ancient Grudge and hate for Leylines.
To circumvent the (potentially) abhorrent number of Storm Combo decks waiting in the wings, the penultimate foil to decks of that nature are Aggro-Control variants setting up a clock with heavy to mild disruption. Even before Misstep was around, Storm was only a deck sitting at the top tables piloted by competent players dodging one or more rounds of heavy Control. It only makes sense that anyone who understands the format could return to a Storm-heavy environment could also theorize it could return to a Control-heavy environment as well. Control typically has more consistency at the top tables, which is where Dredge (of all variants) can prey on if it can realistically perform well enough in the first three rounds of a given event.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
Which basically makes me wonder why people are continuing to compare and contrast both archetypes which are similar in nature but different in composition. Both have inherent strengths and weaknesses, so to dismiss one archetype because the strengths of the other are more beneficial is just inaccurate at this point. In all honesty, I think Zoo and Merfolk are going to make a heavy resurgence now that Misstep is no longer a problem.Quote:
It's also true that Morrissey won the SCG with a Dredge deck that always DDDs, but still. That's a hybrid list and this is manaless. That's a huge difference.
The banning of a single Magic card has changed the complexity of the entire format. Fundamentally, however, Dredge variants will change little and will continue to dominate Control and Aggro decks - which have historically done better than Storm decks at large venues. Not everyone is a capable Storm pilot, and the fact is the gross, contrived negligence of everyone perpetuating "Combo-Mania" as the death of decks like manaless Dredge is just a fallacy at this point as Manaless Ichorid can still win - if played properly and adjusted accordingly.
Nick Rausche did it, and not everyone runs Leylines unless they feel their deck is completely unable to deal with graveyard-based strategies or just make a poor boarding decision by running a more mulligan-aggessive strategy post-board. This argument has been beaten to death; a very small percentage of players insist on running Leyline of the Void, and by this point it's basically common perception any competent player can play around Crypt or Relic.Quote:
That's actually what I always said and what kept me kinda away from a totally manaless version. You can't really win a tounrnament in a somewhat prepared metagame without Ancient Grudge and hate for Leylines.
While I shared the same sentiments with you concerning the fast combo matchup about thirty minutes after the announcement (my natural pessimism), I actually don't think this deck is necessarily a complete dog to the archetype. If you've got the time, try out this postboard list against a good Storm player:Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
4 Golgari Grave-Troll, 4 Stinkweed Imp, 4 Golgari Thug, 4 Shambling Shell
4 Street Wraith, 4 Gitaxian Probe, 4 Urza's Bauble, 4 Mishra's Bauble, 4 Lion's Eye Diamond, 3 Desperate Ravings
4 Ichorid, 4 Narcomoeba, 4 Dread Return, 4 Chancellor of the Annex, 3 Bridge from Below, 2 Cabal Therapy
You might need to switch around the numbers in that last row a bit (with cutting Shambling Shell and/or adding Phantasmagorian within the realm of possibilities), but that's a pretty good idea of what I have in mind for the Storm matchup.
What concerns me are people, previously ignorant, now knowing to put Manaless on the play whenever possible, meaning advanced scouting at a large tournament/player familiarity at a local store might hurt a lot. I built up somewhat of a reputation as a Manaless player at my LGS, so I actually got put on the play twice in the last two weeks after losing the roll (thankfully, I was playing Reanimator); it could have been pretty detrimental had I been playing Manaless.
Where "pretty detrimental" = "my opponent gets 1 extra card".Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinTrudeau
Correct. It's not the end of the world (which is why I used 'pretty'), but one card is actually fairly huge against decks packing Relic, Crypt, Ravenous Trap, Bog, etc., especially blue decks with Brainstorm, or of course combo decks (although, LED can be a great equalizer in those matchups, but you can't bank on having one all of the time).
So, I went to that tournament and went 2-2-1, losing to Reanimator (1-2), beating RW aggro (2-0), losing to Affinity (0-2), drawing with Enchantress (1-1-1), and beating BG Death Cloud (2-0), netting seven sweet, sweet Planeswalker Points. Some thoughts/observations:
-The deck is mighty resilient as is; tonight sort of reaffirmed for me that it doesn't necessarily even need a Salvage/Bloodghast package in the sideboard to be able to grind out games postboard. My Death Cloud opponent had three Faerie Macabre in game two by turn three, and I was still able to win in blowout fashion.
-Even though Reanimator runs a bunch of countermagic, I think it's correct to board in the LED/Chancellor/DA package. You really can't be playing a slower game with the constant threat of an Elesh Norn.
-I used to think Terastodon was better than Woodfall Primus, but now I think the opposite.
-I lost the first game to Affinity because I had to mull, and the second because he had Crypt+a fast clock. We played about six more postboard games just for fun, and I only won once, when I got a turn one kill thanks to two LEDs and two DAs (with the prerequisites that I had to play first every game, and me trying out Chancellor in place of Sphinx+FKZ, which was definitely subpar. To be fair, he had a turn one Crypt in about two-thirds of the test games). The matchup is certainly harder than I gave it credit for when I was debating it with somebody else (Izor?), but I still don't think it's necessarily bad.
Hi everybody!! A bit tired of traditional versions of dredge i thinking on running this one. But first a couple of question:
-Is this deck still viable?
-Make sense ru nthis deck now that MM is out of scenne?
-Has anybody recent results with it?
- What do you think of running Dryad Arbor in MD?
Thank you in advance!
I like manaless more and more over normal dredge, because mana-dredge has so much "useless dredges". Like I am dredging a GGT and have 4-5 lands and some other useless stuff... Doesn't happen with manaless...
Manaless can kill on turn 2-3 [with some luck] and the help of Sphinx of lost Truth & FKZ, so it isn't really slower than mana-dredge.
The only problem this deck has is facing Leyline, so that takes it out of competition in some metas.
Dryad Arbor seems only good to trigger Bloodghasts and then sac it for DR. IMO That's not good enough to waste a slot. I played 2 in the side alongside 1 Forest with Hollywoods old sideboard, but IMO Arbor is not good enough for the main.
I liked Arbor to run Nature's claim in side.Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth
Could i see your list?
Yeah... my old board was like:
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Snow-Covered Forest
4 G-Fetchlands
4 Emerald Charm
4 Reverent Silence
[Fetch to Arbor when you want to cast Silence, otherwise the Forest]
Still... it wasn't that good against Leyline, because Leyline is the doom against Dredge.
So I just decided to ignore Leyline... My actual list looks like this [but I am still testing and experimenting]:
4 Bridge from Below
4 Bloodghast
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Dakmor Salvage
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
3 Sphinx of Lost Truths
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Angel of Despair
//Sideboard
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void [or Chancellor of the Annex if you fear Combo that much]
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 4 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Realm Razer
Btw... I Like Manaless Dredge A LOT more then regular Dredge...
What's your list for reference?
Looks pretty similar to yours,,,side under construction:
// Lands
3 [FUT] Dakmor Salvage
// Creatures
4 [TO] Ichorid
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
2 [ON] Gigapede
3 [PLC] Phantasmagorian
4 [FUT] Street Wraith
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Shambling Shell
4 [R] Nether Shadow
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
3 [ZEN] Bloodghast
// Spells
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
4 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
Advices are welcomed! :)
Is Gigapede really worth it? It looks always like a blank card to me...
I found it a good discard outlet together with phantasmagoria but I will run 4 of phantasmagoria. And just one giga. Besides bloodghast do not like as much. I will try something else in that slot.Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth
Gigapede helps smooth out your dredges so that in the event you dredge something like Golgari Grave-Troll or activate a Phantasmagorian, you can continue discarding those cards and get maximum value out of them. There will be times where your dredges will look something like: Ichorid, Nether Shadow, Street Wraith, Dread Return, etc. That's not necessarily bad, but if you have a Gigapede in your graveyard, it allows you to get rid of that Dredge card from your hand so you are able to continue the process without whiffing on chaining dredgers.Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth
Right now I run two Gigapede in my sideboard as basically an alternative option to see how they would operate in certain match-ups. What makes this deck so powerful right now that people are failing to realize is the abhorrent number of Tempo-based strategies that are making a comeback in this format. Cards like Stifle, Daze, Wasteland and friends are doing a serious number on the format right now (due in large part to being a natural foil to Storm). This is where Manaless can once again shine, but I don't think people are still convinced.
I ran the deck this past weekend to a Top Eight finish in Maryland and I can say that Chancellor of the Annex is for real. It helped win me games against High Tide and Belcher - typically blowout match-ups for this archetype (not High Tide so much) as a whole - even if you run Mana Dredge. I've found the recursion factor to be incredibly sexy in a format now being dictated by conditional counter-magic and spot removal in the form of Bolt and Swords. I also main-deck Faerie Macabre which gives me a huge edge against decks like Reanimator and opposing Dredge or graveyard-based strategies.