Modern Banned List

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Originally Posted by TeenieBopper

Yasooka's deck was an anomaly. He was going into a peculiar tournament where he knew exactly who the players were going to be as well as being able to make educated guesses about what they were going to play. How well did Yasooka's deck do in Seattle? Furthermore, how well do you expect it to do in Chicago?

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He was playing against: Affinity, UWR delver, RUG delver, and Jund. Is it any different than what you'd expect anywhere else? His deck wasn't an anomaly, it really is good and the hate against it isn't. Basically Extirpate/Surgical is the best bet against it, but in that case you have to be running those cards (which we can all agree are less than ideal).

I expect it to do well in Chicago, I've played with that deck and it's really damn good. This is assuming enough percentage of players are going to use it and give it a chance at top 8ing. But honestly with all I've been reading, people are lazy and will pick Jund because they don't know better.

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition

He was playing against: Affinity, UWR delver, RUG delver, and Jund. Is it any different than what you'd expect anywhere else? His deck wasn't an anomaly, it really is good and the hate against it isn't. Basically Extirpate/Surgical is the best bet against it, but in that case you have to be running those cards (which we can all agree are less than ideal).

I expect it to do well in Chicago, I've played with that deck and it's really damn good. This is assuming enough percentage of players are going to use it and give it a chance at top 8ing. But honestly with all I've been reading, people are lazy and will pick Jund because they don't know better.

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Or we see more combo decks because everyone thinks everyone else is on Jund so they just try to be faster and and sideboard leylines

Yasookas deck is well yeah an anomaly it is decent vs Aggro decks, but like was shown at the PT combo is a thing

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Originally Posted by Fizzeler

Or we see more combo decks because everyone thinks everyone else is on Jund so they just try to be faster and and sideboard leylines

Yasookas deck is well yeah an anomaly it is decent vs Aggro decks, but like was shown at the PT combo is a thing

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Okay... but Yasooka's deck runs 3 Mana Leak, 2 remand, 3 spell snare, 4 cryptic command, and 2 spell pierce side. I don't think combo is going to have the easiest time in the world.

@Lord Seth & Fizzeler: The point I was making is that in Legacy, the three basic pillars aren't as clear cut as it would proposed and represented that those pillars are absent in Modern. The forms the pillars take is vastly different from each other. Goblins is an aggressive deck- it trys to cast spells, put dudes in play every turn, and it attacks as much as possible. It uses a lot of the same tools that can be found in control to do so. That's atypical, and it's ok. The "lacking" pieces of Modern are present, they're just atypical, and that's ok too.

The weird constraint put on the "aggro" query for Legacy was intended to show that there aren't many STOMPY (Green or Dragon) decks out there because it's not optimal to play them, usually. However, they do exist, and as I've been recently learned, one of them had a better than bad showing just recently. No the typical control deck may not be present, but that doesn't mean that there are no control decks. That seems to be the biggest argument against Modern at the moment, that and the ban list makes no sense.

(What MtG list does make sense? Reserve, banned, restricted?)



In so much that in Legacy, the pillars are all composite. They're ornate, well thought out, intricate well designed objects.

In Modern, the pillars are a mix of corithian and ionic. They're not as pretty as Legacy, but the pillars are still there.

(Expanding on my analogy-)
With the requisite number of pillars present, the roof stands. With a good roof overhead, I believe the format is fine.

Cheers,
circular logic

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition

He was playing against: Affinity, UWR delver, RUG delver, and Jund. Is it any different than what you'd expect anywhere else? His deck wasn't an anomaly, it really is good and the hate against it isn't. Basically Extirpate/Surgical is the best bet against it, but in that case you have to be running those cards (which we can all agree are less than ideal).

I expect it to do well in Chicago, I've played with that deck and it's really damn good. This is assuming enough percentage of players are going to use it and give it a chance at top 8ing. But honestly with all I've been reading, people are lazy and will pick Jund because they don't know better.

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http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...topmoderndecks

There was one person who went 6-2 or better with Yasooka's deck in Seattle. To put that in perspective, more people did better with merfolk than did better with Yasooka's deck. There were five people in the entire tournament who played it. You think it was because the other 378 players, including most (if not all) of the best players in the world, were just lazy? Please.

1 in 5 people to play the deck did very well with it? That's pretty low numbers to try to do meaningful statistics with, but still better than 0. I never said it was the best deck ever created, I said it is a good control deck. If you want to get in a fight over it, though, I'm less than interested and will just be waiting for results instead of silly arguments.

Right. Because a list of 6-2 decks at the Pro Tour aren't results.

Also: No pros are playing it in Lyons: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...yo12/welcome#7 . Granted, this doesn't automatically mean it won't make day 2, or that it won't top 8. But if nobody is playing it, odds are it isn't very good for a large, open tournament like a PT or GP.

None of the grinders were won with it, either: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...yo12/welcome#2

Not a single copy of Yasooka's deck made day 2 in Lyons: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...gplyo12/day2#3

I've been thinking about modern quite a bit lately, and I'd like to throw out an idea for folks:

Would a reprint of Wasteland be what 'true' control needs to be viable in modern? I know that tempo-based aggro/control decks would jump on it as well, probably most decks would (just like legacy.) It makes cards like Spell Pierce and Mana Leak much better in the format, which I would think would naturally lead several high-rolling competitive players to attempt a control deck. Why true control over aggro/control? All you need is a way to deal with early threats, trim back the greedy mana-base, then bring in a card advantage engine to establish inevitability. In particular I would see cards like Supreme Verdict and Detention Sphere enabling a strong control deck in modern, if provided with Wasteland.

Theoretical playables for a hard control list (really short on time, it's a start):

Supreme Verdict
Detention Sphere
Elspeth, Knight Errant
Compulsive Research
Bant Charm
Tarmogoyf
mana Leak
Spell Pierce
Serum Visions


Looking for feedback...don't be afraid to call me nuts! It's just a thought, like throwing a pile of stuff against a wall. Sometimes, some of it sticks.

I hate Serum Visions so much. It's just so awful at being a cantrip: you draw something you most likely need while you get to torment yourself over two cards you most likely need.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

I've been thinking about modern quite a bit lately, and I'd like to throw out an idea for folks:

Would a reprint of Wasteland be what 'true' control needs to be viable in modern? I know that tempo-based aggro/control decks would jump on it as well, probably most decks would (just like legacy.) It makes cards like Spell Pierce and Mana Leak much better in the format, which I would think would naturally lead several high-rolling competitive players to attempt a control deck. Why true control over aggro/control? All you need is a way to deal with early threats, trim back the greedy mana-base, then bring in a card advantage engine to establish inevitability. In particular I would see cards like Supreme Verdict and Detention Sphere enabling a strong control deck in modern, if provided with Wasteland.

Theoretical playables for a hard control list (really short on time, it's a start):

Supreme Verdict
Detention Sphere
Elspeth, Knight Errant
Compulsive Research
Bant Charm
Tarmogoyf
mana Leak
Spell Pierce
Serum Visions


Looking for feedback...don't be afraid to call me nuts! It's just a thought, like throwing a pile of stuff against a wall. Sometimes, some of it sticks.

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Without the suite of countermagic and combo speed that defines legacy, I fear that wasteland would warp the meta to the point of being nearly unrecognizable.

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Originally Posted by Zeckk

Without the suite of countermagic and combo speed that defines legacy, I fear that wasteland would warp the meta to the point of being nearly unrecognizable.

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That's not a bad thing. It would make it much easier for fair decks to beat Tron, possibly removing it from the field entirely (which I am VERY ok with). It would seriously hamper 4c Jund. It would make tempo decks playable. Which of those things would you have a problem with?

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Originally Posted by SpikeyMikey

That's not a bad thing. It would make it much easier for fair decks to beat Tron, possibly removing it from the field entirely (which I am VERY ok with). It would seriously hamper 4c Jund. It would make tempo decks playable. Which of those things would you have a problem with?

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I don't have a problem with the 3 changes you noted but I would have a problem with the format other than these changes. Modern doesn't have the card filtering or low mana cost bombs that other formats can get by on. Brainstorm, free spells like Force + Daze, things like Sensei's Divining top, even Stoneforge Mystic and GSZ, make Legacy a format that is capable of playing entire matches where neither side needs to hit more than 3 lands per game. Introducing Wasteland to the format not only cuts down the top playable cmc of the format by attrition, it adds a variance that I think both competitive and less-so players would all hate. You keep a 3-lander and get Wasted down to 2 or 1 and you have nothing to help you out. It wouldn't even hurt many of the unfair decks in the format like UR storm, eggs, and splinter twin.

While I think there should be more nonbasic hate in the format, and think Tron as a deck is terribly boring in concept and to play against, I can't help but think a free nonbasic kill spell isn't what would balance this out. There are greedy manabases now like 4c Jund that have no reason to not run 4c, so I hope they print something to combat things like that, but Wasteland is just too powerful. Something like Back to Basics would be the best, since it's arguably less powerful than Blood Moon but gives more colors the option of making everyone be honest with their manabases. I would say Price of Progress, but that would be too strong with only shock duals. Perhaps a white hatebear that has a similar ability of Back to Basics.

We have Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon that are modern legal. Also, modern isn't legacy and there is a very real price in having so many colors: more self-inflicted damage.

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition

I don't have a problem with the 3 changes you noted but I would have a problem with the format other than these changes. Modern doesn't have the card filtering or low mana cost bombs that other formats can get by on. Brainstorm, free spells like Force + Daze, things like Sensei's Divining top, even Stoneforge Mystic and GSZ, make Legacy a format that is capable of playing entire matches where neither side needs to hit more than 3 lands per game. Introducing Wasteland to the format not only cuts down the top playable cmc of the format by attrition, it adds a variance that I think both competitive and less-so players would all hate. You keep a 3-lander and get Wasted down to 2 or 1 and you have nothing to help you out. It wouldn't even hurt many of the unfair decks in the format like UR storm, eggs, and splinter twin.

While I think there should be more nonbasic hate in the format, and think Tron as a deck is terribly boring in concept and to play against, I can't help but think a free nonbasic kill spell isn't what would balance this out. There are greedy manabases now like 4c Jund that have no reason to not run 4c, so I hope they print something to combat things like that, but Wasteland is just too powerful. Something like Back to Basics would be the best, since it's arguably less powerful than Blood Moon but gives more colors the option of making everyone be honest with their manabases. I would say Price of Progress, but that would be too strong with only shock duals. Perhaps a white hatebear that has a similar ability of Back to Basics.

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I agree with this. Wasteland is too strong for Modern but there definitely needs to be some playable nonbasic hate. I think Dust Bowl is that card. It's powerful but slow; you can't use it before turn four. Repeatable but there is a real cost. It even seems possible for a reprint in some Standard format, no this one though.

How about just reprinting Price of Progress? Can't use it in Jund without killing yourself, gives red a role as anti-multi-color deck, and helps tone down jund?

Reprint PoP and Burn breaks loose.

i already speculated on the non-basic non-ravnica duals because of the lack of land hate. Academy Ruins is really good without waste for example

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Originally Posted by Amon Amarth

I agree with this. Wasteland is too strong for Modern but there definitely needs to be some playable nonbasic hate. I think Dust Bowl is that card. It's powerful but slow; you can't use it before turn four. Repeatable but there is a real cost. It even seems possible for a reprint in some Standard format, no this one though.

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With this principle, Tectonic Edge is playable then.

And truthfully, Tectonic Edge is near UN-playable. If I'm going for Tron hate (in the form of land) I'm going for Ghost Quarter.

Wasteland is safe for Modern, I think. I think the worst that would happen is that folks would have to play the appropriate amount of land, put more basics in the mix, and consider playing less than 3-4 colors (*gasp!*)

I think that generally the curve of modern is too HIGH. Wasteland would force folks to start considering economy of mana costs. That means faster, aggressive decks can be well placed again...and Mana Leak becomes certifiably AWESOME with Wasteland. Hello control, what took you so long to come to the party?

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Originally Posted by H3llsp4wn

Reprint PoP and Burn breaks loose.

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No it won't. Between not having core burn spells like Fireblast and Chain Lightning, burn will not go out of control with PoP.