Ban on Brainstorm: Yes or No (Post Snapcaster Mage)

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Originally Posted by menace13

IBA- It is not at this point, it has been that way in every single GP. Every 1st place deck has had either BRainstorm or FoW or both. Blue will always be the best color in eternal formats.Why call for the ban now and not 6 GPs ago?

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Goblins won the first Philadelphia GP.

In subsequent GPs decks running Brainstorm generally made up about half the decklists, even including the ridiculous Flash debacle at Columbus. At that point calling for a banning on Brainstorm would have been silly and premature. Blue may have had the best strategies at that point, but they were not clearly and far and away the best.

Put simply, the dominance of Brainstorm has become harder to ignore. It seems to have also materially have gotten better.

I don't buy format fatalism anyway. A few years ago all the idiots like Tom LaPille and the people on the-website-that-shall-not-be-named were screaming, for instance during the Flash fiasco, that combo would inevitably dominate all Eternal formats and blue and black were the only real colors, and anyone who said otherwise or claimed that creatures were relevant was deluding themselves. There was no reason to believe the fatalists then, and if the fatalists have neatly changed their tune to the reality that presents itself, that's less reason still to take them seriously. Others may have conspicuous memories but I remember pretty clearly that early on, the Hatfields and a few other NOVA people were the only ones really pushing Thresh to be a serious deck, and cards like Daze and Portent were seen as chaff.

It may likewise be possible that there are stronger archetypes in Legacy lying undeveloped that want for players who are both competent and dedicated to the format to develop them, and that this would alleviate the cloud of blue dominance we see at the moment. If Brainstorm doesn't get the axe, we can at least hope that's the case.

I strongly encourage anyone who is tempted to say anything along the lines of "blah blah blah inevitable" to go read this thread. I mean yes, obviously a metric fuckton of cards have been printed between now and then, but that's the point. The strategy that people are now saying was always inevitable- blue aggro-control, essentially- was at the time viewed as novel at best, non-serious at worst by a whole fuckton of players.

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Originally Posted by menace13

IBA- It is not at this point, it has been that way in every single GP. Every 1st place deck has had either BRainstorm or FoW or both. Blue will always be the best color in eternal formats.Why call for the ban now and not 6 GPs ago?

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In case you just tuned in, there's been a couple of good blue cards that has seen print in ISD. Both cards had become format defining - Delver of Secrets and Snapcaster Mage. Both cards are pushing Brainstorm to the brink.

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Originally Posted by IBA

I have a problem if a color is necessary to win in Legacy, and there's a lot of evidence that suggests that Brainstorm is basically necessary to win a large tournament at this point. This is, in short, troublesome.

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Fact. Rock and Deadguy don't stand a chance against the raw power of Snapcaster + Snare + Stifle + Swords. Sensei's Divining Top can't compete. At this point, it's a total waste of time to keep on trying. Between Brainstorm and Snapcaster Mage, I would prefer Snapcaster Mage getting the axe this December.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

My point is that you (and that other poster) didn't obviously read the thread. I made countless topics and posts on this argument, i've debated about this for literally hours of my free time on this forum, and yet people like you arrive and post nonsense that has been debunked time and time again only because they're lazy and didn't read the 1 thousand threads that have been popped up about this argument the last months. And then call the other lazy? That's some hypocrisy right there lad.
If you don't want to read 1 thousands threads about a subject, you're free to do so, you just have to understand that if you arrive and write a thing, probably it has already been written, and you'll be called out for this. It's just natural and it bring nothing to the discussion, and it's annoying.
But no, it must be me trolling.

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So you are trolling.

First of all, when did I ever call anyone lazy? Answer, never. You are just making something up and arguing against it. I was suggesting that if people don't want everyone to play brainstorm maybe they should come up with a deck that beats brainstorm decks.

Second of all could you point me to where you "debunk" my one argument that, "most people believe that brainstorm is good for the format." I would love to see how that is not the case.

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Originally Posted by death

In case you just tuned in, there's been a couple of good blue cards that has seen print in ISD. Both cards had become format defining - Delver of Secrets and Snapcaster Mage. Both cards are pushing Brainstorm to the brink.

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They printed other good blue cards, so now we have to ban Brainstorm? How does that even make sense? Next you are going to start telling me about how there was a gentleman's agreement to not play Brainstorm in good decks.

Just thought it was interesting for us to refer to the current DTB section of the Source, look at the list of decks and notice that it's about the same as it was a few years back with the exception of Maverick replacing Goblins. Why the brainstorm-crying all of a sudden?

In fact, I think in the current DTB section, there are many other cards that are powerful that are not mentioned: FoW, LED, SFM etc. None of these should be ban-worthy at this point, and I don't think that the long history of Legacy with the similar dominance but changing DTB should be an argument towards banning Brainstorm.

My view on it is this. Other colors have top tier 1-drops, Blue just has too many now


-Green-
Wild Nacatl
Noble Hierarch

-Red-
Lightning Bolt
Goblin Lackey
Grim Lavamancer

-Black-
Duress/Seize
Dark Ritual
Dismember?
Entomb?

-White-
STP
Mother of Runes

-Blue-
Brainstorm
Stifle
Spell Pierce
Spell Snare
Delver of Secrets

Ponder could even be there. That's 5 great 1-drops in Blue and 2-3 in all the others. Why so quality heavy in one color?

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Originally Posted by troopatroop

My view on it is this. Other colors have top tier 1-drops, Blue just has too many now


-Green-
Wild Nacatl
Noble Hierarch

-Red-
Lightning Bolt
Goblin Lackey
Grim Lavamancer

-Black-
Duress/Seize
Dark Ritual
Dismember?
Entomb?

-White-
STP
Mother of Runes

-Blue-
Brainstorm
Stifle
Spell Pierce
Spell Snare
Delver of Secrets

Ponder could even be there. That's 5 great 1-drops in Blue and 2-3 in all the others. Why so quality heavy in one color?

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Add Preordain, High Tide, and maybe even Flusterstorm to blue as well.

And most recently and departed, Mental Misstep.

The recent sets have added more quality in Blue than in other colors, and the effect of having 2-3 great, cheap cards in Blue without some sort of counter-weight in other colors to supplant Blue's goodies is what's causing all this focus on Brainstorm.

I personally think that Brainstorm is great for Legacy, but not when the only Legacy playables from new sets ends up being more Blue cards that interact directly with Brainstorm, and make Blue more aggressive. The latter fact makes it feel as though there is no reason to play other colors when Every-goddamn-aspect-of-the-game can be accomplished with Blue.

That's cause for alarm for format diversity and balance.

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Originally Posted by rukcus

And most recently and departed, Mental Misstep.

The recent sets have added more quality in Blue than in other colors, and the effect of having 2-3 great, cheap cards in Blue without some sort of counter-weight in other colors to supplant Blue's goodies is what's causing all this focus on Brainstorm.

I personally think that Brainstorm is great for Legacy, but not when the only Legacy playables from new sets ends up being more Blue cards that interact directly with Brainstorm, and make Blue more aggressive. The latter fact makes it feel as though there is no reason to play other colors when Every-goddamn-aspect-of-the-game can be accomplished with Blue.

That's cause for alarm for format diversity and balance.

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IMO, Delver was the real kick in the nuts. A flying Nacatl in Blue was just insulting to Zoo players everywhere. The fact that you get one of the best, most aggressive creatures in Blue instead of Red or Green really pushed things over the top.

So we have the best colors for different strategies:
Control: Blue
Combo:Blue
Aggressive: Blue
Mid-Range*: Green


*Defined as basically Maverick style decks.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

I don't buy format fatalism anyway.

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I agree. And what a strong argument against the banning of Brainstorm! Well put. Doomsayers insisting that the format will ultimately devolve into one dominant archetype have always been proven wrong on a long enough timeline.

Brainstorm, strong though it may be, is not so strong a card that the format won't shift away from blue aggro control as new cards are printed and new strategies are formed to combat it. For over a year there's been an epidemic of calling for bans to fix perceived problems with the format, when the simple passage of time will allow nearly all of those "problems" to self correct.

The format is fun to play, rewards skillful play, and there are a wide array of viable decks to choose from. A lot of them have blue in them, but so what? Seriously. If the format is fun and requires skill and there are a lot of different viable decks to play, what difference does it make what colors they are?

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Originally Posted by death

In case you just tuned in, there's been a couple of good blue cards that has seen print in ISD. Both cards had become format defining - Delver of Secrets and Snapcaster Mage. Both cards are pushing Brainstorm to the brink.

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In case you can't read that well: Blue has a history of always winning large scale events. *Aside the first GP.

This isn't new and top 8s from large events have at most maybe 2 to 3 non Brainstorm/non FoW decks in them. Blue is the most Banned/Restricted color in Magic. The Ban list has around a dozen blue cards. The next color to come close is black with 8. This is also true for Vintage and Modern. Blue gets better over time in all eternal formats.

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Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar

Add Preordain, High Tide, and maybe even Flusterstorm to blue as well.

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Not trying to be argumentative, but I don't think it's accurate to suggest Flusterstorm and Preordain are Tier 1 cards. Very, very few legacy decks want 12 ponder effects and Flusterstorm is generally underwhelming in most SBs and is only really effective in a few niche MUs.

Why do people want to balance the color pie so badly? Sorry the format is changing and blue is very strong right now? Build decks that beat blue maybe? Straight G/W Maverick is a very good meta choice right now.

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Originally Posted by snappingbowls | ಠ_ಠ

Not trying to be argumentative, but I don't think it's accurate to suggest Flusterstorm and Preordain are Tier 1 cards. Very, very few legacy decks want 12 ponder effects and Flusterstorm is generally underwhelming in most SBs and is only really effective in a few niche MUs.

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I agree that those are definitely not "tier1" cards, but what about High Tide?


Honestly, I think Land Destruction is something they should look back into. Choke isn't enough anymore.

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Originally Posted by Zilla

I agree. And what a strong argument against the banning of Brainstorm! Well put. Doomsayers insisting that the format will ultimately devolve into one dominant archetype have always been proven wrong on a long enough timeline.

Brainstorm, strong though it may be, is not so strong a card that the format won't shift away from blue aggro control as new cards are printed and new strategies are formed to combat it. For over a year there's been an epidemic of calling for bans to fix perceived problems with the format, when the simple passage of time will allow nearly all of those "problems" to self correct.

The format is fun to play, rewards skillful play, and there are a wide array of viable decks to choose from. A lot of them have blue in them, but so what? Seriously. If the format is fun and requires skill and there are a lot of different viable decks to play, what difference does it make what colors they are?

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Not really. I mean the doomsayers would be correct I suppose if bannings never occurred. If Flash were still legal, blue and black would be the only colors.

But if blue is overly dominant, and there's great reason to suspect it is, beyond just the raw numbers, strategically too, there's no reason to suspect that that would continue unabated with Brainstorm getting the axe.

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Originally Posted by troopatroop

I agree that those are definitely not "tier1" cards, but what about High Tide?


Honestly, I think Land Destruction is something they should look back into. Choke isn't enough anymore.

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Well neither are Lackey, Dark Ritual, Duress, Dismember, Entomb, or Mother of Runes. I think the lack of playable one drops is a format-wide problem; with more strong one drops and pitch spells in other colors the colors might balance a bit.

Giving red some tournament quality LD might help the format a bit too. Maybe an excellent place to start would be a pitch Pillage.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

Not really. I mean the doomsayers would be correct I suppose if bannings never occurred. If Flash were still legal, blue and black would be the only colors.

But if blue is overly dominant, and there's great reason to suspect it is, beyond just the raw numbers, strategically too, there's no reason to suspect that that would continue unabated with Brainstorm getting the axe.

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Blue continuing to be a strong color in legacy is different from legacy being all Flask Hulk decks. Brainstorm can be played in a myriad of decks, many of which are from different deck archetypes. Flash only gets played in Flash Hulk.

I think there is reason to suspect the metagame will shift, because, historically, it has with AND without bans. I mean, we never banned Goblin Lackey right? And Gobs used to be the premiere aggro deck, it was absolutely tier 1. Ban cards that degenerate the game into one deck type, and decks that combat it. Brainstorm supports a variety of decks and strategies, whereas Flash only supports turn 0 wins.

The control and combo strategies of Brainstorm really aren't doing too well on the numbers, as far as I can tell. Legacy being a bunch of three color Thresh decks, essentially, isn't that diverse.

Also you know, you could build Hulk-Flash a lot of different ways, there was definite diversity there. Just saying.

The only reason Thresh is great right now is because the decks that beat Thresh are not popularly played right now. Give the meta time to adjust and the ever-performing Thresh will face its challenges. This has been true of Legacy, which fixes itself. I highly doubt that the format post-MM is uncapable of fixing itself (MM meta could be fixed against MM, but it is not as easy, in fact there were decks you can play that answered MM-based decks e.g. 1cmc discard, Chalice.decks etc).

I don't think we need to go about how to beat Thresh/tempo.decks. Everything keeps itself in check right now in Legacy, all these decks have all been played widely in the past and we all know which decks should spring up if they really want to win against Thresh/tempo.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

The control and combo strategies of Brainstorm really aren't doing too well on the numbers, as far as I can tell. Legacy being a bunch of three color Thresh decks, essentially, isn't that diverse.

Also you know, you could build Hulk-Flash a lot of different ways, there was definite diversity there. Just saying.

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The end result would be the same though, with Flash Hulk. It's construction could be different, although I would think there would be an optimal build, there usually is.

Do you consider U/W Stoneblade and BUG Control tier decks? I would suggest both of those are strong control builds. Also, Storm and Show and Tell play Brainstorm. These decks still exist and are competitive, but examining legacy but looking at Open Series t8's can be misleading, I'm not suggesting this is what you are doing, but I think many people do and draw sweeping conclusions from those tournaments alone.

I think saying legacy is essentially a bunch of 3 color thresh decks is an oversimplification. These strategies have seen a resurgence in popularity, but I still feel comfortable calling the format diverse. We have to compare it to other constructed magic formats right?

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

But if blue is overly dominant, and there's great reason to suspect it is, beyond just the raw numbers, strategically too, there's no reason to suspect that that would continue unabated with Brainstorm getting the axe.

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There's no reason to suspect that would continue unabated without Brainstorm getting the axe. If past is prologue (Lackey Goyf LED Show and Tell etc.), we'll look back a year from now and laugh that we ever even had this conversation.

There's no compelling evidence to suggest that the format won't simply evolve to exploit a highly predictable metagame as it has always done in the past. Brainstorm is not some unstoppable powerhouse that makes people win on turn zero 50% of the time like Hulk Flash, and to even compare the two is intellectually dishonest to a pretty ridiculous degree.

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Originally Posted by Zilla

There's no reason to suspect that would continue unabated without Brainstorm getting the axe. If past is prologue (Lackey Goyf LED Show and Tell etc.), we'll look back a year from now and laugh that we ever even had this conversation.

There's no compelling evidence to suggest that the format won't simply evolve to exploit a highly predictable metagame as it has always done in the past. Brainstorm is not some unstoppable powerhouse that makes people win on turn zero 50% of the time like Hulk Flash, and to even compare the two is intellectually dishonest to a pretty ridiculous degree.

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Given that those highly predictable decks make up an ever-increasing percentage of the top tables, verging on 70+%, and still outperform themselves, this seems like an optimistic expectation.

Hulk-Flash builds that won on turn 0 were garbage btw and could never manage anywhere near 50% but that's neither here nor there.

The point is that what is meant by "diversity" differs. Vintage might look diverse to Vintage players, but most other people disagree. Clearly some people think a format full of decks that all run Brainstorm + Force can be diverse; I don't really agree with that either, especially when they're all just basically starting to look like Thresh.