yesQuote:
Originally Posted by BigBopper
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yesQuote:
Originally Posted by BigBopper
I must disagree witht he flow of thought that this pairing is 50/50 or favorable to UR Burn.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeroenC
I've tested this pairing a lot (and I mean A LOT) as for me, a deck unable to win Maverick (be GW or punishing) is not worth considering in my meta.
UR Delver may have the Hand of GOD and win, and even with a "quite alright" hand. Post board, Smash to Smithereens and Submerge help a lot, but it may not be enough. Knight, Ooze, Mother of Runes, and Stoneforge are too hard to stop (all of them). Zenith to Scryb Ranger also puts us into a problem for their multiple Knight/Mother activations. Post Board, Choke doesn't help either.
All in all, Maverick simply plays a ton of threads nonstop, putting preassure after the first turns. If you don't have the "right" hand, your burn/counter cannot keep up with their threats as they can start attacking as soon as they have their 2nd creature (almost always) and if they play it right, our counterspells cannot protect our Dudes AND avoid their big plays.
We can win on the spot, but being 30-70 or something close to that makes me avoid this deck on my meta, at least, until I find a version that can win 70-30 Maverick / Zenith.
Maybe a more burn oriented deck could do this (I'm thinking of Searing Blaze), till then, I'll keep working on it!
I recently played a very good Punishing Maverick player, as expected, I lost 0-2..but I did find that I'm fairly certain I was playing wrong.
I spent most of the match-up killing his creatures, I had 18 points of damage in the yard and got 2 swings of a delver through before it died. Would I have died if I didn't kill 4-6 creatures? Maybe, but there's a very real chance he'd have to play drastically different in order to survive the burns.
I think going balls to the wall towards them (in the right circumstances) is the best choice.
Against Punishing Maverick in My testing and experience, Price of Progress is our main out, Punishing Mav. is extremely greedy in its manabase and PoP is our way to punish that. Beyond that, I have had the best luck in beating them by throwing all the fire I can at their face. If anyone else has other insights on the match up I would love to hear it but I am personally not at that much of a disadvantage against the deck. I would say 55/45 +/- in their favor, so not unwinnable but not favored.
Yes. UR Delver has to be the beatdown, the control magic is there for tempo and the burn is there to end the game. You can't effectively play control because then you're getting into the mid-game/late-game...at which point this deck doesn't have much play (unless you count drawing Price of Progress "mid-game").Quote:
Originally Posted by Kich867
Mono red usually doesn't waste burn on controlling the board and neither should this deck. 95% of the time it's correct to just burn face.
This is absolutely true. I burn SFM on sight (assuming I can't get them to chump with it first) and ignore almost everything else they play, unless they're foolish enough to play a Goyf or KotR in bolt range. It's not an overwhelmingly positive matchup for us but it's really not that bad at all if you're playing the beatdown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kich867
Cool, thanks for the advice guys. Might test this deck out at a semi-big tournament next week, have the manabase and Force (if I run them) so pretty cheap to build/borrow after that.
Talking about matchups. So far I have tested vs. maverick, which is positive to my believe. Furthermore BUG control is also a usual victim to PoP, due to its 3-colored manabase. Here Spell Pierce is better than Snare for planeswalker targets. ANT/TES is also positive 60/40 or better.
I haven't tested it yet but could imagine Burn as a bad MU, since they are faster and countering 1-drops is not that easy. Also goblins has a negative MU as far as I have seen from others testings, 'cause they usually handle our creatures and one stucks in bolting their guys or the player themselves.
Other impressions on MUs???
Goblins is very much in our favor, in fact, I genuinely question whether goblins can actually win versus anything that drops creatures. I've played goblins countless times with various decks, every time I 2-0 them.
For us, just play it safe, make sure lackey gets blocked / killed and they pretty much lose (gross oversimplification but, that's certainly what it feels like most of the time). I really have trouble figuring out how that deck steals wins. I guess if you play against people who can't drop a turn 1 creature you're in the clear, but against any deck with one-drops, I haven't lost a game against them.
They don't run much if any removal (which is mind boggling) and have immense trouble getting things through. If their lists just ran at least lightning bolt they'd be in a better position I think but, I haven't seen many / any that do, so their lackey's get chumped or killed by delvers or guides and then I just beat them to death. I have yet to find this match up difficult against any of the decks I play, they run lackeys into 1/1 creatures assuming that I won't block and trade and their mana base is awkwardly unstable with usually 8 lands that don't tap for red, relying heavily on vials.
Is there a consensus on a decklist? I would like to build a version of this deck for a gauntlet and wanted to get the latest and greatest.
Thanks.
I don't think there's much variations. I think it just comes down to "Do you want to play force or not?". I don't own forces, I've thought about running Disrupting Shoal in it's place since I'm .. pretty much just concerned about stopping removal and I happen to have a very sweet mix of one and two casting cost blue cards (Ponder, Delver, Brainstorm and Daze, Shoal, Snapcaster).Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
Here's my list at the moment:
Creatures: 14
4x Goblin Guide
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Grim Lavamancer
3x Snapcaster Mage
Spells: 28
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
3x Rift Bolt
3x Fireblast
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
4x Daze
3x Spell Pierce
//(going to try Shoal at spell pierce)
//Lands: 18
3x Volcanic Island
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Misty Rainforest
3x Arid Mesa
2x Mountain
2x Island
//Sideboard:
3x Smash to Smithereens
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Submerge
3x Price of Progress
3x Sulfuric Vortex
//Trying vortex out.
I really don't enjoy running price of progress maindeck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
Ther're two variants, Burn with little splash for the good blue cards -Delver,BS, Snapcaster- and the more blue version with Fow, Snare... I'm still trying to decide what's better.
I've tested the FOW version and i'm running this decklist right now:
// Lands
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [B] Volcanic Island
2 [UNH] Mountain
1 [UNH] Island
// Creatures
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets
3 [M12] Grim Lavamancer
3 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
// Spells
4 [B] Lightning Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [CMD] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [M10] Ponder
3 [EX] Price of Progress
2 [VI] Fireblast
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [NE] Submerge
SB: 3 [SC] Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
I'm pretty happy with it, i feel 4 Spell Snare is maybe too much but i don't want to run daze since it cuts our mana development, in this deck it's important to curve properly and spell pierce doesn't counter Tarmogoyf...
daze has been pretty bad for me lately. any good player is going to be prepared for it and too often its just more force food. wtf. thats what my snapcasters are for. spell pierce seems a lot more useful; if a creature resolves just burn it. it makes your creatures live longer too.
UW Tempo is big where I'm at, Daze wins those games for me. I had a chat with the guy who made this deck: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=847049 after I beat him 2-0 with U/R Delver (was fist-pumping so hard on the inside haha) and I think he summed it up pretty nicely..Quote:
Originally Posted by wutangkillabeezonaswarm
If you have the daze for stoneforge on turn 2, and they don't have the force to stop it, there's a good chance you win. I've also been really happy with dazing hymns and other key spells people tap out for. My main problem are the spells people don't tap out for, like swords to plowshares and lightning helix--that's why I want to try out disrupting shoal as a decent replacement for force of will (when you're only looking to hit 1-2 drops).
You know mental misstep has been banned for a while right?
Note the date, he built a force of will'less Bant deck and took it to first place at a GP invitational--he wasn't playing THAT deck (wtf?), he was playing U/W Tempo against me at our local FNM.Quote:
Originally Posted by wutangkillabeezonaswarm
But your right, past accomplishments are a horrible measure of someone's abilities and knowledge of things..
When you play U/R Delver, your focus isn't to get in the red zone. The deck is essentially a burn deck with counter magic for interaction - and your focus/win con is through burn spells.
As such, the removal of Goblin Guide is essential. Sure, the card may have won 2 SCG Opens, but in the current metagame, it is absolutely garbage when drawn past turn 3.
Here is the list that I have been running with great success:
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Price of Progress
4 Fire // Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Arid Mesa
2 Mountain
2 Island
3 Volcanic Island
SB:
3 Pyroblast
3 Submerge
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Sulfuric Vortex
I 100% disagree here. Goblin guide is so insanely strong. often 6 damage for 1 mana is quite good i hear. So yea if he becomes bad after t3 where he did 6 damage, i would be happy to deal with that. Alongside Delver and Lavamancer you can have a pretty strong board position.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaxe
Anyway I guess it differs between play style and personal preference. For example, I don't run Force or Snapcaster(still testing these) and approach the deck very aggressive and balls to the wall and Goblin Guide is one of the better cards for that purpose.
That's not quite true. The last time I played goblins at a tournament I faced U/R Delver and won both postboard games. Pyrokinesis is really good killing Delver and Guide at once. Other than that Tarfire has Bolt's spot and Incinerator is still all around. You also don't have a bolt/chain lightning for all lackeys, piledrivers and stuff. That's why I said either burn the opponent or lackey and co. He didn't have a removal for my EOT vialed Warren Instigator and on his turn he faced 8 more goblins. Also lists novadays don't neccessarly play Ports anymore. I don't say to fear the goblin MU, but as far as I heard its not the easiest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kich867
I liked the synergy of goblin guide and PoP, but since I don't play PoP MD anymore....Still Guide is a really good turn 1 drop, especially with VI and daze backup. I strongly support 2+ Daze MD. Instead I removed Lavamancer, since he's very slow and I miss mana to activate him, since I usually use it for Bolt and co. or Snapcaster.
So i recently built U/R Delver but its more of a tempo build
Land 18
1 Mountain
3 Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
Creatures 12
4 Delver of Secret
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Snapcaster mage
2 Vendillion Clique
Instantsm 20
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
2 Fire//Ice
2 Magma Jet (this is a Trial)
4 Brainstorm
Sorceries 6
4 Chain Lightning
2 Gitaxian Probe
So i have 2 open slots (where magma jet is) and i have been suggested to put price of progress there but it seems like it could be bad if i am wasting lands and potentially stifling lands, i have 2 price in the side however. Also saw some list running ponder but its awkward when holding so many 1 drops in hand with it being a sorcery.
Any Suggestions Welcome