No worries, champ. :smile:
-Matt
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No worries, champ. :smile:
-Matt
I would play The Abyss over Curse tbh. That, or Engineered Plague.
I've want to play the Abyss in this deck forever, but there's a problem for two reasons:
1) It costs 4, so if we're adding it, it's another 4-drop.
2) If they have a ton of creatures out already, it doesn't kill anything on board immediately.
They are two different cards, but I think they're also for two different matchups. I think the Abyss is better in cases where you're killing creatures that aren't 1/1's, whereas Curse/Night is blowing out a different subset of creatures. The Abyss would most likely be better against Stoneblade (Traditional UW, no tokens), but against Esper, I'd rather have Night. With MAverick, it's a bit of both. Again Delver, probably Abyss since they play so few creatures (only Goose would be unaffected).
-Matt
Curse of Death's Hold costs 5, which I think is really a bit too much. For that mana there are better cards. If you want to sweep x/1's, Engineered Plague does the same against a whole league of decks and comes down 2 turns earlier. That's a lot sooner.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Human, Spirit and Wizard are the main targets for E.Plague. It hits so much that you are better of playing E. Plague because your deck has a bunch of edicts in the form of Liliana / spot removal like Innocent Blood. If that's not good enough for you, I'd just cut the Wurm Harvest plan and go for Night of Souls' Betrayal or The Abyss.
Minor corrections on your points against The Abyss:
1) It is a 4-drop, but curse is a 5-drop! That's even worst isn't it?
2) It does actually deal with a creature before the next attack step against you.
That's assuming they have only one creature. I mean, you can't assume we've countered 3-4 consecutive turns of threats, are we? Must be nice to live in magical Candy Land, where I get to have all the good things :tongue:
I never said Curse wasn't five, I just said Abyss was 4. 4's still a lot. I agree, Curse is awful.
-Matt
Hello
I was playing at a small event at our LGS with my BUG-control-list (see below) and dropped at 1-1-1 because i was frustrated after i got crushed by a sneak-and-show deck… this BUG-deck is a house against creature-decks (Maverick) and quite good against control-decks (EsperBlade) but it sucks against combo…what can be done to improve the general Combo-MU? Did anyone made comparable experience?
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Island
4 FoW
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 IoK
2 Life from the Loam
3 Deed
2 Innocent Blood
1 Dark Blast
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
SB
3 Vendilion
2 Hydroblast
1 Ghastly demise
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Perish
1 Damnation
2 Flusterstorm
4 Leyline of the Void
I assume it would be good to add some more discard to improve to combo MU. But what to cut? Do I put them in the main or in the SB? Suggestions?
excuse my english..:-)
Best thing against combo is Hymn and Goyf see:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l-style/page15
I am thinking going more into the direction of playing basic lands wihout Hymn to tourach and 2 SD.top in the main to suppor the new Timewalk best. In that case you can easily run the counterbalance package in the side for the combo matchup. It would also bring the Burn matchup to acceptable which is always tough for BUG.
How do you guys feel about "cleaning up" a bit and merging the threads BUG planeswalker control with BUG control and maybe also the Mind harvester. They differ only in some specific card/package choices which also affect manabase and other cards, but the decks are very similar (Deed/Jace control decks). Since it is so hard to maintain threads on thesource I think it would be nice. Merging the Primers can also be helpful to get a bigger overview about the options. (Hymn/Goyf/Intution/Counterbalance)
Yes please combine those threads under one banner :"BUG Control" and do not forget to include Landstill, which I think is the strongest version of BUG.
On question: Yeah youre right, combo is tough - Counterbalance can help but it wont make this MU easy - therefore: Only sleeve this deck up in a metagame thats good for it. Thats what I do.
Greetings
I see your maindeck has a handful of dead cards against them and 3 Inquisitions doesn't really help against the card Sneak Attack, I suggest investing on a pair of Thoughtseize and a 3rd Liliana to help in that matchup. Something like in the opening postQuote:
Originally Posted by Lim-Dul
1 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
Surgical Extraction/Extirpate are big against them since they only have 2 threats (Show and Tell/Sneak Attack), removing either would cripple them. Also, these spells are non-targetable by REBs. Boarding into Hydroblasts can be situationally good against Sneak Attack and Blood Moon, if they go for Show and Tell + Emrakul they would need to face a barrage of Innocent Bloods, Liliana, and Jace activations.
Hymn to Tourach is randomly good because it's not 100% to hit key spells, its main role in TA style decks is to power up Goyfs, which this particular deck doesn't play. I still prefer pointed discard over random discard in a dedicated control shell.
Standstill is generally bad in the current meta for these reasons:
- Opponents fetching Dryad Arbor
- Turn 1 Aether Vial, Delver, Hierarch, etc.
- Opposing Wastelands (against your manlands)
- Opposing manlands (Mutavault, Creeping Tar Pit, etc.)
- Tons of Spell Snare and Stifle (on the trigger—doesn't work)
- Snapcaster Mage, Vendlion Clique, Scryb Ranger in response
I've seen Sneak Attack/Show and Tell decks board into Vendilion Cliques.
reread the interaction between standstill and stifle.....
Standstill is currently the nuts against the top decks, Maverick esper and RUG all scoop to a standstill on an empty board and it is unreal easy to do if you play enough spot removal. Problem is that playing standstill pretty much guarantees you become a dead fish against combo. I still havent found a satisfactory solution to it but if I do they are getting resleeved.
Maverick and RUG tempo rarely have an empty board, even after the 1st turn. They got a handful of one-drop. Being either, mongoose, delver, hierarch, mother of runes. Assuming you are on the draw, that means the maverick player will certaintly have a 2-drop on board or even a KOTR before you even get the standstill on the battlefield.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goddik
I'm a long time maverick player and standstill isn't very good in the current meta of good 1-drop. Pernicious deed, on the other hand, is the nuts against maverick if you managed to get it through qasali pridemage.
you generally need to interact with 1-2 threats depending on whether you are on the play or draw, With 6 spot removals main and 4 force +manlands (i run a 5-2 split with wasteland so noble hierarch often isnt threathening). it is much easier then i immediately thought to land t2 standstill. It happens very often in testing. The draw 3 effect is pretty crippling.t
RUG has so few creatures it is pretty easy to run them out and create the board state you want to drop standstill on.
Still not sure standstill is the way to go given that you have to run the entire support cast, but it is a very powerfull effect that shouldn't be underestimated.
As far as general anti combo plans, here is the list i have considered
Intuition =>Ravens crime+loam (unbeliavably slow, you are likely to be dead)
Confidant/Vendillion Clique => Doesnt interact as much as i would like to
Counterbalance => Doesn's solve Sneak and show + Hive mind, only the storm based decks
Tundra + Meddling mage and canonist => Difficult to support in the manabase, may ultimately be the best solution
If anyone finds the nuts anti combo plan i am listening ;) I feel like it is the one thing holding the deck back since we lost misstep, there are no vials around anymore.
Of course if you run the marijin lybaer'ish list with seize+hymn+snapcaster that should crush combo. You can crush anything with BUG (that is not burn) but it is difficult to beat everything
Ive been playing a lot with my pet-deck Deedstill lately and it really crushes Maverick and preboard RUG if they dont play Sulfuric Vortex. Standstill is a very good card in the actual meta as there is NO Aether Vial and all the "threatening" T1 cards are easily removable... Try Standstill out - its great vs everything but Combo.
Vs Combo..I was trying out 4 Hymn + 4 Extirpate sideboard which worked well against HighTide and Show+Tell but was awful vs Stormcombo..still not sure how to approach this correctly..
Hymn forces you to tap out on turn 2, which is bad against a competent combo pilot. I'd rather cast Duress/IoK/Thoughtseize and have mana up for Spell Snare/Brainstorm (into Force/blue card/land for Liliana).
Standstill can be played around, I haven't dropped a game when an opponent played it against me. I take beats from Factory (or Wasteland it), Brainstorm during his turn, sculpt a hand of 7, and force him to discard after drawing cards from Standstill.
Ancestral Vision >>>>>> Standstill
Why do people continue to insist on running inferior draw spells in control decks?
Why do people still insist on running draw spells in control decks? This isn't 2004. There are tons of ways of generating card advantage these days without drawing random cards off the top.
Intuition/Loam may be slow, but this is a slow control deck, and you don't need the card advantage until the midgame anyway. At which point, the Loam/Harvest engine destroys people.
Also, I'd rather hold open UU for Counterspell against combo decks (hopefully along with FoW backup). If I get to 3 mana, I can EOT with Clique or Intuition. Intuition into Loam/Crime will do damage to the opponent's hand the following turn, and will completely lock them out of the game the turn after that.
Drawing cards is so disgustingly powerfull in this format.
Intuition after Tabernacle seems dirty ;)
Drawing more cards is disgustingly powerful in any format. But Standstill is not that great on its own. You need to satisfy certain conditions in order to benefit from casting it
- board must be empty (and opponent doesn't play Flash creatures)
- you must have a Factory (and opponent doesn't have Wastelands)
- opponent who doesn't know how to draw advantage from Standstill
Drawing random cards off Standstill is card advantage, but it doesn't guarantee card quality. Snapcaster Mage changed the way control decks operate and every answer in the deck are now recyclable. SCM gives you options and precise response to each situation. At the very least you Brainstorm again but you have a 2-power creature permanently. SCM + removal can take out 3 creatures on a single turn, hard to achieve with Standstill + Factory. Having no Standstill in the deck frees up space where you can jam a fourth Jace, third Liliana and Loam. All three generate card advantage by the way and are great on their own.
Intuition is worth a try, possibly in the sideboard against slower decks. Intuition + Worm Harvest is unimpressive. They are blank cards and do nothing from early to mid-game. A 5-card Intuition package makes you prone to dead draws, cards which have no direct impact when drawn off the top. They don't stop fast-paced decks from getting ahead. It's better in my opinion to just draw answers and stall the opponent until you stabilize with a Planeswalker on the board. At which point, you are already winning. 1-2 Life from the Loam is already enough for those long games.
I found a nice banner we might be able to use:
Can't beat combo, can't beat burn. Is it worth picking up BUG only for its Maverick match-up?