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Needle may name LED but won't stop it, maybe you get lucky because someone borrowed the deck and doesn't know this ;)
Anyways, Needle seems very good at what you want it to do.
I've been testing Leyline of the Void yesterday because there is a rise in fast Graveyard Combo decks like Tin Fins and Undercity Spy as well as Petal Reanimator and it was pretty good actually. Might switch to Faeries though.
Needle may not get LED, but Warlock has a point, its a great time to play needle. I think Pun Jund has made Tribal almost unplayable, so I feel like the E Plagues are probably safe to drop for now which gives us a few slots for burn/combo. I think at the end of the day discard the hell out of them and if you lose if they get a god draw, sucks but i dont know any other answer. I wish we had some good hate bears like Mav did. Ive even dicked around with gsz for teeg, is there any decent monogreen bear or hybrid green bear out there that we can take advantage of?
Aside from Ooze? None. GW gets the hatebears to fight spells from the grixis spectrum. That's just how it beQuote:
Originally Posted by defector
I am debating playing Reverent Silence or Nature's Claim. Yes, it messes up our clock, but being able to use discard is HUGE (not as much burn as we have to side out a good chunk of it).
NC is obviously better against other things, but Reverent Silence smokes multiple Leylines, and although I wouldn't bring it (or much of anything) in against Miracles, it does a number on that deck too, Rest in Peace and Counterbalances and other annoying enchantments.
edit: Furthermore, fuck burn. Literally. I guess it is my own fault, but I refuse to devote sideboard space to that deck unless it is useful against something else as well. It's such a fringe deck that no one will see past the first few rounds, it cannot win, but it beats Jund like Vitaliy Klitschko. I hate losing to it, and I just hope I can beat everything else, which I think we have at least a passable chance.
Also, two separate people have used and suggested Sinkholes. The card is actually pretty sweet overall, going first and Sinkholing something turn 2 is pretty sick. It might be too cute, but at this point I am trying anything for the SnT match-up. Even something stupid like 4 Needles, 3 Revokers and 8 Red Elemental Blasts? Show and Tell, sup.
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edit #2: What about... white? I realize it's madness at this point, but white has solid options. Stuff like Thalia and Leonid Arbiter, Gaddock Teeg (Teeg and REBs are enough to stop the stupid SnT). Putting one (and ONLY one) Scrubland or Savannah in the deck somewhere, and having all fetchlands being able to snag it, and putting in something like 4-5 White hate? Might or might not work, but you never know.
Ooooor we can just have 4 hymn postboard. Honestly, all that discard is going to be good enough against Burn and S&T. In the case of Leyline, it's a false sense of security; I've seen combo players mull down until they have one, thinking they'll win with all that protection; then I clobbered them with Tarmogoyfs and Lilianas because they kept a hand of durdles.Quote:
Originally Posted by razvan
That's not to say they don't have an operable hand with Leyline out; however, taking about splashing white is lunacy.
And fuck me if I still Thoughtseize a burn player and take their PoPs or Bolts. I get the argument "aw, it's just a free shock for them, that's so bad" all the goddamn time. You know what? They're still going to burn you if you don't.
tl;dr: Jund does what it does. Sure, you lose to Burn and S&T more often, but Burn loses to Maverick and S&T loses to BUG, while we obliterate those matchups. No point in trying to change the deck or make it something it's not; the most we can do is turn into the skid.
Ive looked at white a lot, but 4 colors is tough. We could cascade them in otherwise looking at Chains or N Void to try and manage this stuff.
Also, all in all, A thoughtseize can evade you taking a Bolt, thats already one damage, ha. Also, since usually we have a couple Duress on the board, might as well board some in trade of the seizes for added security.
What do you guys think of a transformational sideboard to fight combo/SNT/Miracles/Burn?
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Sinkhole
3 Dark Ritual
1 Nether Void
Hypnotic Specter circumvents Leyline of Sanctity and it's a threat. DRS and Dark Ritual help cast it much earlier in the game to make it more relevant against the decks you board in Specter.
As mentioned before, Sinkhole coupled with Wasteland provide a unique angle of attack that your (combo) opponent is probably unprepared for.
Chalice seems like a no-brainer against storm combo. It's not meant to singelhandely stop storm combo, but it's definitely annoying if you play on turn 1 with 0 counters. Even if you run the risk of nullifying cards in your hand, remember that if you have DRS you can still run your cards that would otherwise be countered by Chalice directly into Chalice so they hit the graveyard and give you some fuel for DRS in case of desperate situations. I don't think Chalice wouldn't be bad idea to bring against Miracles either. If you set it at 2, then they have to get rid of it before casting Energy Field or more importantly Rest in Peace. Setting it at 1 counter isn't bad either since you can stop Swords to Plowshares, Brainstorms, and possibly Top.
Nether Void could be replaced by an additional Sinkhole or miscellaneous hate card, but the fact that it can act as the final nail to the coffin burying combo's hopes is enticing. Like Chalice, Nether Void still allows you to resolve Abrupt Decay, and better yet, Nether Void can't be targeted by your opponent's Abrupt Decay!
Dark Ritual assists in casting some of the sb cards, but keep in mind Dark Ritual allows you to cast Liliana on turn 1 also.
What's convenient about this sb is all of these cards are all completely live against Burn. Last I checked, Jund has been having problems with Burn. Try this sb out against Burn.
We do have access to one hate bear in phyrexian revoker.
Is he worth considering? He gets sneak attack, led, grisel etc. I dont know if i could dig in on 4 but he does directly addrress a variety of issues and for us is probably better than needle.
I like Revoker. It still can't stop SnT off Ancient Tomb on the draw, and I am not sure if it will ever stop LED (it CAN, it will just never get to do it on turn 2 very likely), but it beats!
Might have a 1/2 split of Needle / Revoker.
Revoker was my favorite creature in Death and Taxes (back when I played it), but having Mother of Runes made him insane.
That said, he's still quite good. Using him effectively, however, requires a t1 shaman and even then he prevents hymn in that same turn.
I also use needle for control, esp. Countertop decks, and only S&T if I can fit them.
I was going to point out that Revoker dies, but then I remember we are talking about Jund, which means there are just so many targets to care about, that he just might get away alive!
Well, you have to prioritize too. If you CAN use discard, use it, then estimate how the hand will go from there. I am not sure whether you blindly use Revoker or Hymn on turn 2 first. I guess it would depend. Casing Revoker on Griselbrand is probably the correct play, but then they can Sneak in Emrakul and murder you. Hymn can deal with that, but sometimes it misses.
It's not a good scenario at all.
To what? In show and tell i mean.Quote:
I was going to point out that Revoker dies, but then I remember we are talking about Jund, which means there are just so many targets to care about, that he just might get away alive!
Not SaT but probably less effective in Miracles, with StP/Terminus.
Yes, that was always the issue in D&T. Granted, Jund is ACTUALLY filled with must-answer threats, not just some that pretend to be. So revoker may live.Quote:
Originally Posted by aluisiocsantos
The issue with revoker is that you often want him ASAP, since hymn can miss. Honestly, the only reason I would consider him is LED. Even then, storm has decay/chain of vapor/the ability to not give two shits and storm off anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by razvan
Sure you can, all you have to do is have Revoker in your hand.
If they Show & Tell and drop Griselbrand / Sneak Attack and you drop Revoker off of their Show & Tell, you can name whatever they dropped and they don't get a chance to respond to it since Revoker is an As it enters the battlefield ability and not a triggered ability.
Casting Phyrexian Revoker and naming Sneak Attack is the better play. If you play your Revoker off of SnT, then naming Griselbrand is more sensible, but I question the usefulness of Revoker in the context of facing a 7/7 flying lifelinker that can still attack and that you can't get rid of unless you top deck or Cascade into Liliana. Those are some bad odds.Quote:
Casing Revoker on Griselbrand is probably the correct play, but then they can Sneak in Emrakul and murder you. Hymn can deal with that, but sometimes it misses.
I think Revoker has room in a package. He alone isnt a reliable silver bullet. Vs combo if you brought in revoker x4 hymn x1 duress x2 and extirpate x3, your probably ok. Always lead with hd and use revoker to seal up the disruption. If they turn 0/1 you then you lose. Ces la vie. An all in anti combo revoker board could look like this:
Revoker x4
Extirpate x3
Duess x2
Hymn x1
Reb x2
Jitte x3 for burn wtfn
That would aim squarely at our bad mu and assume we beat all blue decks without sb assistance.
I'm new of this deck but i have some question, probably dumb:
-Why no one is already playing 2-3 Pernicious Deed in SB instead of Engineered Plague vs tribal and aggro decks?
-Wich one is the better SB configuration vs COMBO? More discard or something like Mindbreak trap?
Thank you! :)
A) Pernicious Deed is too slow against tribal, especially Elves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorenzo767
B) Yesterday I brought up the idea of boarding in Dark Ritual + Hyppie to turn up the speed and amount of discard against combo. Hyppie not only has the benefit of being a threat, but it also makes your combo opponent discard even if they have white Leyline. Chalice is also good to stop turn 1 tomfoolery from Storm or even TinFins. Sadly, no one has yet to give any input on the idea. Mindbreak Trap isn't bad, but it's very narrow since it's practically only useful against really fast combo decks. Even then, it's not guaranteed to make you win against Storm since they can just Duress you instead of going off turn 1.