[Primer/Deck] High Tide

The card isn't better than the 4th Flusterstorm, but it is good enough to replace something like Spell Pierce in a fringe slot or two in the sideboard if you go that route. For a while (and technically still) I was running 1-2 Spell Pierce in the board to help against combo and Counterbalance, and for this deck Swan Song is a strict upgrade. The only non-creature artifact you care about is Chalice of the Void, which is played sparingly and can be bounced anyway. Of course, both cards also compete in the same slots as Defense Grid or Mystic Remora, but I definitely think it'll find a home in here.

@astormbrewing

I don't understand what's the problem:

- Against control with Counterbalance, Swan Song is just better than Flusterstorm.

- Without Counterbalance, you are going to use this on your combo turn, which means: you play High Tide, the opponent counters it, the fact that you play Swan Song or Flusterstorm to counter does not matter (The opponent does not care about his counterspell, and will counter your High Tide again if he can).

- Against Discard + Fow, if my opponents decides to FoW my Swan Song to let its Discard resolves, that's anyway a Fow which is not in my way during the combo turn.

Besides what I mentioned above, Swan Song makes our 2 worst match-ups (S&T and UW CB) much better. The token is only relevant for match-ups where the clock is already strong, that is tempo thresh. However, the counter war only occurs when we combo, making the token useless for their clock. The only issue I see is when you wanna run defense grid.

@Di

I am surprised that you think Flusterstorm > Swan Song. Apart from being able to counter multiple spells (which does not happen against good opponents), Swan Song just looks stronger.

What makes Flusterstorm strong is the fact that it can't be answered so traditionally. If you get into a counter war, you can Flusterstorm the spell you don't want to resolve & they can't just counter it back like Swan Song / Force of Will / etc. Because of the copies. It basically makes it a hard counter, which I like against opposing combo decks that are faster. As well as it still helping against early discard. As well against Counterbalance, the deck isn't fast, so we have plenty of time to get out bounce against it and prepare with a Wipe Away, which also can't be "traditionally" countered because of Split Second.

Also, with Swan Song, they get a 2/2 creature, which I don't like against early disruption from an aggro deck, especially a tempo aggro deck that's fast.

Now the counter arguments would be this. Later game, Swan Song is a hard counter where sometimes Flusterstorm won't be a hard counter until it's for more than their available mana. Also it can actually be cast against Dream Halls / Sneak Attack / Counterbalance, where with Flusterstorm, you have to save them for opposing counterspells & start off with Force of Will.

In the end, do what you feel most comfortable doing. If you want to go either route with these slots in the deck, just make sure you get those wins doing it, then noone can tell you you're in the wrong.

Oh and if you're curious, I am keeping my Flusterstorms.

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@Di

I am surprised that you think Flusterstorm > Swan Song. Apart from being able to counter multiple spells (which does not happen against good opponents), Swan Song just looks stronger.

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Outside of Counterbalance (which the deck already has several answers for), there are so few enchantment spells you would ever care to counter that it becomes completely inferior to Flusterstorm against a blue deck otherwise, because you can then focus on winning the counter war. In that sense, having an essentially uncounterable card is miles better. Granted there are rare occasions when Swan Song would be better outright, such as a second-chance attempt at going off with few spells, or the opponent having so many lands in play to pay for copies post-Tide, but those situations are few and far between. Hell, at least Flusterstorm will get mileage after a Counterbalance resolves thanks to copies, whereas any Swan Songs drawn afterwards would (probably) be completely dead.

Beyond that, Flusterstorm is also stronger because it will stop an early discard spell better and not risk getting hit by Daze or Pierce or anything else. If you get hit with a Hymn t2 and your Swan Song is countered, the game is incredibly difficult from there on, as opposed to Flusterstorm, which will guarantee protection. Plus I can definitely see situations where using a Swan Song turn 1-2 against a more aggressive deck like Jund could be a huge liability, as it will provide them an extra 4-6 damage at least.

TL; dr - Unless you're specifically dealing with a Counterbalance, you will want a Flusterstorm over it 9/10 times. I really think anyone running any number of Swan Songs before you have a full set of Flusterstorms is mis-building the deck.


On the other side for Swan Song though, I would really like to use it on my own spells and blow someone out by blocking a Gaddock Teeg or Tarmogoyf or something. That will be fun.

I get the point, even though I think you hit a bit too strong on Swan Song (SS). The card looks quite good when the opponent is able to pay 2 (or 3 if we have a BS) after its discard spell, which happened too me quite often against Jund. The same holds for sitting with my Flusterstorm in hand when my opponent casts Sneak Attack. All in all, these corner cases do not make up for the raw power of Flusterstorm over SS probably.

Now that I came again on this thread, I am curious how the testing of Sensei's divining top (SDT) went for you. If I remember correctly, you were discussing the inclusion of SDT instead of Mediate. I saw that feline ran also a list with 4 SDT (which I proposed on the old thread with CB in the side board). However, after several tests I found that 4 SDT was way too much.

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Originally Posted by TiMeWaLk

I get the point, even though I think you hit a bit too strong on Swan Song (SS). The card looks quite good when the opponent is able to pay 2 (or 3 if we have a BS) after its discard spell, which happened too me quite often against Jund. The same holds for sitting with my Flusterstorm in hand when my opponent casts Sneak Attack. All in all, these corner cases do not make up for the raw power of Flusterstorm over SS probably.

Now that I came again on this thread, I am curious how the testing of Sensei's divining top (SDT) went for you. If I remember correctly, you were discussing the inclusion of SDT instead of Mediate. I saw that feline ran also a list with 4 SDT (which I proposed on the old thread with CB in the side board). However, after several tests I found that 4 SDT was way too much.

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I actually got the idea from Di, so it all stemmed from him. ^.^ The reason I went with 4 is because multiple out weren't so much a bad thing, especially with Turnabout / Rebuild tricks, which Di also pointed out to me. But really you only need 1 out honestly, I'm just crazy. As well I admit, I do miss Preordain, and still have my playset foils, but I need to get some foil tops now ha ha. Thanks again Di for the SDT notice, I will likely continue running them unless something crazy happens.

There's also the odd scenario when you counter your own spell to block Gaddock Teeg or chump a goyf. Not that it should be included for those reasons... just saying.

@feline

When running 4 SDT, you can have troubles with hitting your lands since SDT + Brainstorm without fetch does not dig much for example. At least, it is what I observed back then, and I went on testing to figure out that 1 or 2 tops in the entire deck was actually the best for me. Did you experience such problems?

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Originally Posted by Mackan

There's also the odd scenario when you counter your own spell to block Gaddock Teeg or chump a goyf. Not that it should be included for those reasons... just saying.

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Originally Posted by Di

On the other side for Swan Song though, I would really like to use it on my own spells and blow someone out by blocking a Gaddock Teeg or Tarmogoyf or something. That will be fun.

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Really? I said this two hours ago.

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Now that I came again on this thread, I am curious how the testing of Sensei's divining top (SDT) went for you. If I remember correctly, you were discussing the inclusion of SDT instead of Mediate. I saw that feline ran also a list with 4 SDT (which I proposed on the old thread with CB in the side board). However, after several tests I found that 4 SDT was way too much.

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I've had them in the deck since February, although I haven't had a chance to play a large Legacy event in the time. So I pitched them to feline who I knew would, and she did well with them. They're incredible here, especially since a high portion of the metagame is leaning closer towards discard and midrange strategies. Although I disagreed with a number of slots from her list that placed with them (namely four tops), it demonstrated that the card was really good. Personally, I'm running 3 SDT and 2 Preordain. Cutting Preordain entirely is a mistake because it still enables solid sculpting on turn one, without being overly reliant on something people might hate ala Revoker or Needle in for. And running more than three SDT convolutes draws too much; the times when you could abuse multiples are typically late in a combo, and you never want to sit around with more than one pre-combo. It's different for a dedicated deck like CounterTop, but not for this. You can't afford to waste draws or Top activations seeing multiples, so that 4th is a liability to me.

Thanks for the feedback. It seems in agreement with what I experienced when I was running 4 of them. What happened to the Meditates? Are they completely gone for you?

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Originally Posted by TiMeWaLk

Thanks for the feedback. It seems in agreement with what I experienced when I was running 4 of them. What happened to the Meditates? Are they completely gone for you?

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I cut Meditate completely once I went all-in with Top and haven't looked back. Haven't missed it at all.

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Originally Posted by Di

I cut Meditate completely once I went all-in with Top and haven't looked back. Haven't missed it at all.

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Any chance you could post a current list?

I'm likely going to play something very close to this at the next SCG Invitational:

4 High Tide
4 Time Spiral
3 Turnabout
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Cunning Wish
4 Merchant Scroll
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm

6 Fetchlands
12 Island

1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Intuition
1 Turnabout
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pact of Negation
1 Flusterstorm
2 Wipe Away
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Echoing Truth
1/0 Snap
1/2 Flex slot

MD: I still won't cut the maindeck BSZ. It's proven invaluable to me. A win condition that is highly useful post-Spiral is too good. Unless it's a severe issue, I won't ever run a md bounce spell. It's a waste of a slot imo as it's far too narrow. Running a card drawer in it's place will be better at least 75% of the time. Note that this is a bit different of a case than the BSZ (which is poor pre-combo) because the card serves such a different, yet diverse function.

SB: The Snap teeters in and out depending on how badly I want a second flex slot and how much I care about bouncing creatures. Typically, the two Wipe Away and Echoing Truth handle that fine, but I'd probably keep the Snap if Thalia finds its way into more decks. The flex is currently occupied by Spell Pierce, but could easily be any of the cards I mentioned in an above post regarding Swan Song. I've considered cutting Surgicals completely given graveyard decks are rather slim, but they're weak matchups so I still feel comfortable with them. They could become Grafdigger's Cage, although I generally feel a single SE will be enough of a hit to win the game for you, and they're somewhat useful in other matchups.

Yea, I'm already looking at going to 3 tops and squeezing in 2-3 preordains, I miss preordain. I've also found that 1 main 1 side pact has been usually fine, so I've since cut the 3rd pact and brought in a 3rd grafdigger's cage. There's "just enough" match ups to still warrant the cages, since they help against GY as well as random stuff like Natural Order / Green Sun's Zenith.

Not only SDT fights pretty well against discard but also it randomly wins games from time to time by being able to storm with only 2 tops in play and a lot of mana.

Interestingly this situation is not really hard to achieve and can save a huge amount of concentration during a tournament
-> 20 mana in pool, I draw with my top, cast the top, re-draw again 18 times, BF.

It is sometimes a much more straight forward way to steal a game, without even using time spiral.

http://www.happymtg.com/decks/search...ent_id:T019325

278 players 08/31/2013.
High tide finished 13th (column 6). Interesting list but I think Lightning Helix is in fact fire//ice :D

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Originally Posted by Ralf

Interesting list but I think Lightning Helix is in fact fire//ice :D

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Actually I bet it is Time Spiral. I google image searched "Japanese Time Spiral" and all the characters are the same except the first.

Guess SDT makes sense, thanks for the idea. And Past in Flames is highly interesting… so:

Maybe it's too fragile or “win more” but i had the idea to mix
Sensei's (for "instant" draw by tap)
Personal Tutor ( plus: works with Time Spiral itself as it's no target for Merchant Scroll as combo piece fetch – maybe 1off?, can transform into random instant via Merchant Scroll)
and Past in Flames (a resolved Past in Flames is insane, doubles up everything but makes following spirals worse; fetchable with Personal Tutor).

(Yes, splash opens up to wasteland)

Comments?

Regards,
foals

I haven't played a lot of Tide, but I've played a billion games with SDT. Every fetch you add to the deck just makes Top A LOT better.. Sure there's the age-old Stifle argument, but adding two more fetches doesn't hurt that much. I would definitely play 8-9 fetches with Tops in any deck.

Yo! Back to the thread after a few months stop. Had been busy getting graduated :D
I'll be finally working in november so I'm considering buying my first candelabra soon!

On SDT: I have tested one MD and it works perfectly fine. I don't really know if I want more. Seeing one while comboing and go "top-> see three -> draw cantrip -> cantrip into top -> cast top -> repeat" is pretty strong, although I don't think i want to have any top in my hand pre-combo: preordain looks so better as it only costs one mana thus allowing you to go off faster against threatening short range decks, plus it lets you more options to pitch FoW. Dunno, maybe I want two just for the cheap double top storm trick. I'll test some more.

Btw, planning to attend a big tournament in Milan next october and probably bringing something like this:

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12 Island
6 Fetch

4 Tide
4 Turnabout
4 Spiral

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
2 Meditate
1 Sdt

4 Fow
3 Flusterstorm
1 Pact

4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish
1 Intuition
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1 Brain Freeze
1 USZ
1 Meditate
1 Pact of Negation
1 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Surgical extraction
2 Grafdigger
1 Snap
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Hurkyl's Recall

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I don't know, perhaps considering wipe away maindeck is good if I can predict there'll be a lot of counterbalances around. We'll see how it's gonna works.
Greeting from eu.

Just wanted to tell that played a PiF version on a little 8 man.
The list felt incredibly good:
9 Island
8 Fetches
1 Volcanic Island

4 High Tide
4 Time Spiral

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
1 Pact of Negation

4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish
1 Intuition
1 Past in Flames

4 Turnabout

Sideboard:
1 Brainfreeze
1 Blue Sun's Zenith

1 Snap
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Wipe Away
1 Hurkyls Recall

2 Spell Pierce
1 Pact of Negation
1 Defense Grid
2 Mystic Remora (didn't have the other Grids)

1 Surgical Extraction
2 Graffdiggers Cage

I think a 2nd Intuition MB should be there somewhere, but it worked nicely this way.
Small Report:
R1 - Goblins RW
G1 - He's on the play, and lead with Port ->Vial. I FoW thinking that he might be color screwed, but T2 he plays Thalia. I cantrip T1, T2, T3, T4, and go off T5 with Tide -> Turnabout -> Time Spiral. After 2 cantrips I find Intuition, and win grabbing 2x Turnabout + PiF.
G2 - He leads with Vial, and Vial T2. in My 3rd turn I could have Tide>Turn>Spiral, but decided to wait another turn, with FoW in hand. He topdecks a Thalia, plays caverns and Piledriver, and Vial Chieftain. I die next turn.
G3 - I go off protected T4. kill with PiF again.

R2 - Uwr control
G1 - Is quite long. I Scroll for Pact, Scroll for Fow, FoW a Clique, Scroll for another FoW, turnabout him eot, that eats a Pierce, and go off double protected with 5 lands into play. Pif makes the win quick.
G2 - After I FoW a Clique, and re ReBs a Mystic Remora, I try to go off protected by Pact + FoW, but a Flusterstorm makes me 2 mana shy from resolving Time Spiral.
G3 - I play Top T1, and find land, FoW and Grid on top, with Fluster in hand. T3 I cast Grid, he Pierces, I fluster, and it sticks. I manage to only go off 3 turns later, with a protection spell due to him having some inslands untapped, but makes it that he does not have 6 mana for 2xFoW. After a couple of cantrips I have loads of mana and 2x Top, that gives me enough storm for Brainfreeze.

R3 - Belcher
G1 - I keep double FoW, and have to use both to not lose. He is left with Led only. I have a Fluster and Time Spiral only, and a Top. 4 turns later I have 6 lands into play, and decide is safer to go for it. I draw 3x Tide, Turnabout, FoW, Fluster, Ponder. Ponder ->Shuffle, draw Ponder, Ponder->Shuffle draw land. Top finds a Scroll, and I win (Play I all mana I have, Scroll->Intuition for Turnabout, Turnabout, PiF, Cast what he gives me, cantrip, cantrip, turnabout, turnabout, get a ridicously amount of mana Scroll for whatever, Intuition for whatever, and win). Islands tapped for 7 this turn =D
G2 - Kept 2 Fow again, and put a T2 Mystic remora into play, that on the course of 2 turns drew me 7 cards! =D Double FoW managed to stop him,Then go off with a top and 4 lands into play, but 3 Tides resolved and a Turnabout. Had all that jazz even after 2x FoW. After a couple of cantrips I show him PiF, and he conceedes.

I loved how PiF makes the combo faster. We don't have to chain cantrip after cantrip to go for the kill. You just need to find an Intuition, then is a sure kill after that. Top helped in that matter too allowing me to Brainfreeze way faster one game.
All in all, whink I'll be playing this version again.