I think Burn just made top 8 of Dallas! Joey Lively win's round 7 on cam! If you read this Joey, that was a nice Fireblast finish!
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I think Burn just made top 8 of Dallas! Joey Lively win's round 7 on cam! If you read this Joey, that was a nice Fireblast finish!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Hammer
I figured I should elaborate on my build more. In my experience, Grim Lavamancer, Fireblast and Flame Rift (to a lesser extent) are cards that you rarely want to see multiples of in one game. However, by playing 4 copies of each of those cards, you're guaranteed to see multiples of atleast one if not more of them. Thus, effectively you're playing with one additional dead card per game that would be better served by a burn spell. By switching to 3 copies of each, you're substantially less likely to see multiples of these cards per game and thus you're effectively playing with a higher concentration of burn spells. You're effectively removing on average one dead draw per game.
Eidolon of the Great Revel seems to be a great option to fill out those extra slots. Legacy operates on an extremely low mana curve and a Pyrostatic Pillar that also beats for 2 every turn is amazing effiency for this deck. Even when answered, it manages to deal two damage to your opponents, 2 damage is the absolute minimum it deals if it gets StPed right away, but between it's beatings and it's shocks, it often does so much more. In early tests on MWS, it's dealing for me an average of 6-8 damage per game if plopped down on turn 2, and I've seen it deal as much as 12 damage to an opponent ending the game.
Yes this build is a bit more akin to Sligh than burn, but I think the trade off is well worth it. Going to a more pure burn list that doesn't play any nonhaste creatures vulnerable to an StP the next turn requires that the deck cut Grim Lavamancer, Vexing Devil and Eidolon, all three of which are very efficient and powerful creatures. It also requires replacing them with 10 far less efficient burn spells. I don't feel making that trade off is justified atleast until WoTC prints atleast one additional Lava Spike equivalent.
List in top 8 plays 2 young pyromancers and 1 satyr firedancer main deck, as well as 4 hellspark elemental. No fetches , no lavamancers. Weird card choices i'd say XD
Satyr Firedancer seems great for this deck. Flamespeaker makes for pretty appealing card draw in red.
I think whether or not you want to see multiples of Grim Lavamancer, Fireblast, or Flame Rift is very dependent on the match-up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Hammer
I still have to test Eidolon of the Great Revel, but I worry that if your opponent sticks a substantial threat (e.g. Batterskull or Tarmogoyf) it might be game over. I'd probably cut Flame Rift entirely if I were to main-deck Eidolon of the Great Revel.
Congratulation Joey Lively to nice finish, but I did not understand his sideboarding in round 7, against UWR delver it was strange brought in pillars and surgical extractions, IMHO it was wrong decision and his list is suboptimal, but hellspark elemental is really strong against blue counters.Quote:
Originally Posted by feline
Another strong finish with burn is here, top 4 (field of 205 players):
http://www.metagame.it/liste-mazzi-l...-9-padova.html
and again list without fetches and lavamancers, do you think is this "budget" list better in global metagame now?
btw I dont like ashen rider in SB, prefer ensnaring bridge, is way more versatile.
Why is game over? Eidolon can blocks and dies:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle Hopkins
Quote:
Originally Posted by datanaga
Hello, I am friends with Joey Lively, and the burn deck is actually mine. This was his FIRST Legacy tourney ever, so that might explain the sideboard issues. Still super awesome that he did so well
His list...
4 Vexing Devil
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Goblin Guide
4 Searing Blood
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Lava Spike
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Price of Progress
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
16 Mountain
2 Barbarian Ring
Sideboard:
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Ashen Rider
4 Smash to Smithereens
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Mindbreak Trap
I love the list Brian Pepper.
Once Eidolon of the Great Revel sees print, would you think it makes sense to go...
-2 Sulfuric Vortex
-4 Keldon Marauders
+2 Flame Rift
+4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
to speed up the clock?
If you go nonbudget, do you feel Grim Lavamancer would be superior to both Sulfuric Vortex and Flame Rift?
Did he ever regret Vexing Devil, Fireblast or Searing Blood?
Good point. I guess a better example would be True-Name Nemesis. Maybe I'm just being overly cautious. I'll have to start testing Eidolon in the main.Quote:
Originally Posted by datanaga
Concerning Sulfuric Vortex, I've tried cutting the card in the past with poor results. This is very meta dependent of course, but the card is strong against Stoneforge decks and control decks (e.g. U/W Miracles), and both are quite popular at the moment.
Took down another Legacy event tonight with Burn. Took home a foil Brainstorm. Overall tournament record with the deck is now 13-2-1. Using a fairly stock list:
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
4 Flame Rift
3 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Magma Jet
20 Land
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
2 Bloodstained Mire
9 Mountain
Sideboard:
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Searing Blood
3 Smash to Smitereens
Board changes depending on meta obviously. Tonight was Reanimator/Dredge heavy so I boarded Grafdigger's Cage. Ensnaring Bridge was sideboard MVP. Magma Jet keeps trying to trick me into thinking it is actually good.
R1: 2-0 vs Death and Taxes
R2: 2-0 vs RUG Delver
R3: 2-1 vs Deathlade
R4: 2-1 vs Miracles
Probably going to keep jamming this until I finish picking up my Candelabras.
I just took 3rd place in a Legacy Tournament of 19 players 2 weeks ago. Biggest issue was Stoneforge/Batterskull variants. 14 out of 19 were of some Stoneforge build. Every game was a rush for the win but nothing horrid. My worst match up was a UW Stoneforge/Batterskull Control build. To much control to get through before batterskull was dropped.
This was my build at that tournament:
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Vexing Devil
4 Goblin Guide
4 Lighting Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Magma Jet
4 Flame Rift
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
3 Fireblast
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa
12 Mountain
Side Board
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Shattering Spree
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Blood Moon
3 Sulfuric Vortex
Match ups were:
Game 1 vs Canadian Thresh GUr 2-1 win me
Game 2 vs Maverick 2-0 win me
Game 3 vs UW StoneBlade 1-2 lose me
Game 4 vs Jund 2-1 win me
Game 5 vs High Tide w/Candlesticks (Agreed to Draw our Match)
Game 6 vs UW StoneBlade (Same one from game 3) 0-2 lose me
After a few changes my current build is:
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Vexing Devil
4 Goblin Guide
4 Lighting Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Magma Jet
4 Flame Rift
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
3 Fireblast
1 Thunderous Wrath
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa
9 Mountain
Side Board
4 Skullcrack
4 Smash to Smithereens
3 Blood Moon
3 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Thunderous Wrath
Main Board:
1 additional burn spell with thunderous wrath with a 1:5 (miracles cost:damage ratio), and 2 additional fetch for Grim Lavamancer on the main board.
Side Board:
I found that Smash to Smithereens is the best at keeping Batterskull on his feet. Skullcrack and Sulfuric Vortex stop the life gain while still insuring damage to your opponent.
My local meta runs around 12-15 Stoneforge decks. So understand the one sidedness of the sideboard.
running almost the same version. I also have a problem with that one empty slot, keep trying different cards but never happy. Why Searing Blood? With so many fetches why not less conditional Searing Blaze?Quote:
Originally Posted by FairDecksBoreMe
19 April 2014 Legacy Tournament
33 Players
Game 1 vs Jund 2-0 Win me
Game 2 vs BUG 1-2 Lose me (hand control and early tarmogoyf
Game 3 vs UG Infect Comb 0-2 Lose me (1st time seeing this deck)
Game 4 vs Thopter Foundry 2-0 Win me (In 15th place at this point)
This guy could not except I bet him so we proceeded to play 5 matches, I won 5-0.
Game 5 vs Miracles 2-1 Win me (early counterbalance lock game 2)
Dropped before game 6 for a side draft I was not going to make top 8.
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Vexing Devil
4 Goblin Guide
4 Lighting Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Magma Jet
4 Flame Rift
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
3 Fireblast
1 thunderous wrath
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa
9 Mountain
Side Board
4 skullcrack
1 Thunderous Wrath
4 Smash to Smithereens
3 Blood Moon
3 Sulfuric Vortex
Deck changes to make:
Main Board Adjustments
-1 thunderous wrath
+1 grim lavamancer
Considering Side Board Adjustments
-1 thunderous wrath
-1 skullcrack
+2 pyroclasm but 2-4 searing boon looks more effective for the needs of my meta.
thunderous wrath seemed good at first however it cost me the game against BUG showing up in my opening hand every time regardless of mull. It also did the same during some of the other matches but didn't kill me on those matches thankfully.
Thinking of adding 2 bloodstained mires or wooded foothill to main board for heavier graveyard play with grim lavamancers.
2 small local tournments, placed 1st and 4th on different days.
List:
4 Goblin Guide
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Spark Elemental
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
4 Volcanic Fallout
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Lightning Burst
1 Magma Jet
19 Mountains
I dont remember some of my SD, it has Grim Lavamancer which i dont fancy (too slow and awkward, sometimes he's really amazing but most of the times he just sucks, plus i dont have fetches), Manic Vandal (Smash to Smithreens is better but i dont have any), Faeri Macabre, dunno what else. The singleton Magma Jet is for testing. No fetches cuz monies.
vs UB Control I win game 1 easily even against his counters, lost g2 due to keeping a terribad hand, then g3 easy win after he mulls to 3 (lol). This guy is really nice but he got hammered all day, even by people he usually wins against.
vs Pod i just had too much pressure for him, except on game 2 where i get mana flooded and he had Kitchen Finks. Price of Progress and Volcanic Fallout were great.
vs UWB Control his deck had almost no basic lands, and consisted on a TON OF COUNTERSPELLS (+16 i think) and removal like swords, o-ring and detention sphere. Game 1 Guide and regular burn spells murder him quickly. G2 i drew all my 4 fireblasts and only 3 lands. He killed me with hexproof critters while sitting on 6 life.
G3 he had no chance, i go nuts with 2x mountain, 2x Goblin Guide, Lava Spike, Price of progress and Fireblast, killed him turn 3.
I win a few boosters. Nothing great on them. Still better than nothing.
Second tournment:
Played vs BW Control (2-1), he won game 1, i go slow and got decimated by a swag, signed foil version of Liliana of the veil, plus he gained life and had o-ring for my vortex. I knew he had leyline of sanctity on sideboard but he never found any on games 2 and 3. G2 i have a decent hand and topdeck a Vortex, he doesnt have o-ring. G3 i go fast and he doesnt really have much of a chance. Thoughtseize isnt that good vs us. This guy is really nice, always a pleasure to play and talk with him.
vs monogreen aggro (1-2)he's on the play, ramps into turn 2 kitchen finks, turn 3 rancor and stomps me with it. G2 i go first, kill him t3. G3 i keep a bad hand and get punished by it, no mana for vortex, plus again he ramps to t2 kitchen finks and then after lands a thragtusk. On all 3 matches i fail to draw a single Volcanic Fallout (had a playset maindeck), which would wipe all his mana dorks, preventing him to cast his bombs. Misplay on my part G3, plus great draws from him. Shouldnt have lost this one, gotta learn from it.
vs UB Control (2-1) I remember this guy from highschool (almost 10 years ago), huge drama about him punching his GF in the middle of the school; Never talked to him before and didnt knew he played mtg.
His deck was weird, i knew he had some combo i actually never saw, also had counterspells and lifegain, plus PW's like Jace and Venser who enabled him small combos by bouncing his own critters that had 'into play' effects.
Anyways who the hell has Timely Reinforcements maindeck on a legacy match????? Then he lands snapcaster and plays it again >_< , plus soon after he has Jace on the board and laughs (like, 'this gonna be easy'). There goes game 1. I boil inside, this nigg4h for real? Its like his deck is made to play against me, but i cant lose to this guy. G2 was hard, he lands a Spellskite and laughs(QQ what else next, Sanctimony?), but i still pulled through in the end (by 1 damage from Marauders, 3x Keldon Marauders was annoying for him).
G3 i honestly thought i was gonna lose. I won only because he misplayed hard. So, he tapped out with 10 life when i had 3 cards on my hand (who the f_ck taps out versus burn with 2xMana Leak on his hand, and a Venser ultimate ready next turn, plus what he played had so much impact i dont even remember what it was lol, serves him right for being so cocky and overconfident) and i play price of progress and double fireblast for 10 damage. He stares at me like 'wtf i lost'. Cya nerd. He was going to topdeck Timely reinforcements next turn.
This was honestly the most stressing round ive ever played, he and his deck were just obnoxious to play against. Not to mention he drew like 9 lands from Goblin Guide over 3 games (another thing he kept laughing about and saying stuff like 'just keep them coming'), only revealing a single nonland card.
Last round was vs UWR midrange (1-2). Its Burn with Snapcaster, a few counters, draw, and helix. I lose game one, lightning helix + snapcaster into helix again is too much. Game 2 i stomped him extremely hard, and he actually played circle of protection: red but it was too late (lol). He also sided out all his counters, which i think is a mistake, but well it worked. Game three was more of game one, plus i drew like 6 lands. Almost killed him, just needed a bit more gas, or maybe a freggin Price of Progress that would hit for 8 or 10. Anyway it was a fun match against a good player, laughed most of the time.
I really need to deal with that pesky lifegain. Im thinking 4x Skullcrack, can anyone tell me if its good? Seems good on paper. Blood Moon would be bonkers if i could get my hands on some. Magma Jet was okay, card filtering is nice. Spark Elemental, i know most people dislike it, but it ALWAYS got in for 3 damage. Really needed those Volcanic Fallout round 2 and Price of progress round 4.
This was not my day, opponents i attacked with Goblin Guide revealed a land almost everytime (except for the last round, same odds then), even during some fun games before the tournment i got steamrolled playing my other decks. Plus lost every game 1 too, trying to catch up everytime is hard. On the last round had to play vs the only guy with 9 points, bad luck, against any of the other guys with 6 points i had much better chances of winning, which would probably have granted me a place on top 3 for prizes.
Been kinda inspired by (surprisingly enough) Spite of Mogis, especially in conjunction with Mogg Maniac. Any ideas how to build such a list though: Burn isn't exactly my expertise.
Grim lavamancer is a great card all around for burn but you need to make sure your deck is built to feed him for a turn two use, this means fetch lands. Yes it makes mirror matches bad for you but he pulls his weight clearing the board, pinging the opponent, or chump blocking. I've like him much more than lightning elemental which is a dead draw past turn 3.
Magma jet I love that it fixes my draw but makes me angry that it does so little damage for the cost.
Sulfuric vortex is a must for any sideboard or mainboard as a minimal of three. I sideboard it myself but that's a different conversation. I've found that to compete against life gain like stoneforge batterskull decks game 2 needs 3 sulfuric vortex 4 smash to smithereens and 3 skullcracks. The squire pisses me off but it's the equipment that is the threat and requires some patients on your part to kill it. Vortex and skullcrack shut down life gain but don't take care of the 4/4. Smash to smithereens takes care of that. This is a two sided strategy to pincer your opponent into dumping batterskull to the grave. This also keeps you doing damage at all times. Most stoneforge decks I've played immediately stop fetching non basic lands once they see your playing burn which hurts your chance to bloodmoon them effectively or get a good price of progress on them. Keep this in mind.
Bloodmoon is a key in burn sideboard As a 3 of. Jund, Thopter foundry, and a few others rely to heavily on non basics. Many of games have been won by dropping bloodmoon just before I burn out to shut them down for a few turns so I can regroup. Many use ensnaring bridge for this but you then have to caste every topdeck you get. Decks like Counterbalance and miracles love these players. Makes you an easy read with no tricks in the bag.
Smash to smithereens is a must 4 of. To many players know that if they can turn one chalice of the void it shuts most of us down. Or they pithing needle our grim lavamancer. This again keeps us to speed while using their defensive as our offensive.
My biggest issue for worst match ups other than burn vs burn are BUG due to fast hand disruption while using deathrite to ping you gain life and mana ramp while dropping goyf to hit you dead and RU Delver which becomes a race of who top decks better so no siding in the 3+ converted mana cost cards (you need speed) and you can't use price of progress effectively against them because they May give you a single volcanic island in play to hit for 2 damage.high tide is another pain deck but if they are playing candle sticks you can slow them with smash to smithereens, if not you have till possibly turn 4-5. After that your dead.
I run burn mainly when I am at my local fnm, and it pilots very well
**EDIT**
Got some stuff for my list, now it will look more like this:
//Creatures
4 Goblin Guide
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Grim Lavamancer
//Burn
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Flame Rift
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
2 Sulfuric Vortex
//Lands
19 Mountains
//Sideboard
2 Shattering Spree
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Volcanic Fallout
2 Ashen Rider
It depends on if the chain lightnings come in soon or not, but this should be the final list. Any comments?
Hello everyone! I have followed the thread for awhile and just went to scg Detroit(Novi) and got 39th place out of 225. I will admit that my list is inefficient since I audibled from manaless ichorid on the Saturday before. I don't feel to bad about the outcome since my round 7 opponnet was Alex Finley(Storm combo 8th) and my round 8 opponent was Feline Longmore(High Tide 16th). The list is as follows:
4 x mountains
12 x fetches
4 x badlands
2 x taiga
4 x deathrite shaman
4 x goblin guide
3 x hellspark elemental
1 x young pyromancer
4 x lightning bolt
4 x chain lightning
4 x rift bolt
4 x price of progress
4 x lava spike
3 x fireblast
2 x magma jet
3 x sulfuric vortex
sb:
2 x faerie macabre
3 x smash to smithereens
3 x blood moon
3 x pyrostatic pillar
4 x inquisition of kozilek
Basically, I have lost playing burn to either having not enough resources to play the cards in hand. running out of gas, or to life gain. Deathrite shaman is the tiny planeswalker that addresses all of these issues. He allows us to accellerate out in turn two, allows use to burn our opponent in the same way that grim lavamancer does, and allows use to eat the opponents gas to fuel their own deathrites lifegain along with allowing us to push out sulfuric vortex a turn earlier. I think the sulfuric vortex a turn earlier is the most important aspect of deathrite, our deck suffers from soft counters and having deathrite allows us to pay for those instead of running head long into them(see Sullivan's latest article) without actually having to pay for them. The control player will most likely not cast the soft counter if you have the mana available to pay for it thus allowing us to use one of the deathrite's other abilities. I will concede that having the splashes of color opens the deck to stifle wasteland, however, the deck can work off of one or two lands efficiently especially with an active deathrite which would be the only reason one would have the non basic lands in play unless drawn naturally.
As far as the list is concerned, I found as many have that magma jet is subpar and young pyromancer is too slow. I am on the fence with hellspark elemental, he is good against control and countertop but too slow against combo so he is definitely a flex spot. The sideboard is what was really bad (if you didn't think the main was bad enough), blood moon never came down even if I sided it in which was rare and I found IOK so bad I will never play discard in the side again. The problem I found was that the combo decks that exist now are too resilent to discard. I played IOK game 2 against my round 7 and round 8 opponents twice in the early part of the game and still had very little chance to win. The problem with discard is that it does not advance you towards your endgame. Which is probably why the 8 blast plan has fallen out of favor. I know that thoughtseize is better than IOK but it did not make a difference in either match.
If I was to make changes MD I would drop the two magma jet and put in searing blaze and drop the young pyromancer for the fourth fireblast. I had several matches where the second fireblast would have put me over the top for a win. In the side I think I would add a fourth pyrostatic pillar and drop the four IOK and the three blood moon for I don't know what. If someone cared about where I think the deck should be going is that the combo decks are becoming too resilent to a threat from the sideboard that does not advance our game state. This is why we are using searing blood and searing blaze against agro. I think that eidolon in the main along with pyrostatic in the side is the only way we will be able to beat combo. However, I would like for Sullivan to write an article on how to attack the combo matches, his article on how to handle counter spells was very helpful and should be read several times for every burn player out there.
Thanks for reading, if anyone wants I will post the matchups and what I remember from them.
This is what I'm testing right now:
Probe List:
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Goblin Guide
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Arid Mesa
9 Mountain
SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Null Rod
SB: 3 Grafdigger's Cage
I'm a big fan of Gitaxian Probe and this is my attempt at fitting it into Mono-Red Burn. The card can be quite powerful and it has some synergy with Grim Lavamancer, but I'm still not sure if it merits cutting Flame Rift.
Eidolon List:
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Goblin Guide
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Searing Blood
20 Mountain
SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Null Rod
SB: 3 Grafdigger's Cage
The second list came about after some discussion on this thread about playing Eidolon of the Great Revel main-deck. I cut fetch lands and Flame Rift with the hope of decreasing self inflicted damage.
The sideboard fluctuates, but these are some of my favourite choices at the moment.
Let me know what ya'll think.
Edit:
Patrick Sullivan just wrote a new article discussing Eidolon of the Great Revel in Legacy. The article also includes a sample deck-list and some further elaboration by Sullivan in the comments section.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article...ox-Review.html