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Why would you run those Chain of Vapor? Do they ever help in the combo? Or are they just there to remove hate? Wouldn't Echoing Truth be better?Quote:
Originally Posted by Obfuscate Freely
Why 2 Blossoms 1 Roots? Isn't Roots more important?
By the way, by adding Goyfs, this deck just became the most expensive legacy deck of all times....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
Yes.
Here's the Scenario:
You tap 3 lands and add a -0/-1 counter to Wall of Roots on turn 4, leaving a blue producing land open, to play Aluren. Play Familiar for free. Familiar into Man-O-War/Dream Stalker/Familiar. (Re)Play Familiar into Chain of Vapor. Play Chain of Vapor with your last blue mana, making some copies by sacrificing lands you don't need. Get 2 or more Familiar comes into play effects.
Sometimes you bounce 3 or 4 of your own guys with :u: and sacrificing some lands. When you do, you win the game (barring Krosan Grip from your opponent).
Chain of Vapor is what pushes the non imperial recruiter version over the edge, when going off if you hit chain of vapor, then it is seldom that you can not find the combo pieces.
The only reason I've been looking at Gravelgill Duo is that it makes for a 2 card combo once Aluren is on the table.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndyTerminator
raven familiar + Cavern harpy is a better two card combo. Also imperial recruiter is a one card combo. Gravegill, I can't really see any perks to it.
I've been trying Obfuscate Freely's list a bit and have to say, that it works out quite well. The recruiters make the Combo much less vulnerable and the goyfs are also quite nice in many situations, as they make you less dependant on Aluren itself. But this list has lost one of the most important aspects of the older Aluren lists: It can't chain walls in the early game and has lost a lot of consistency. I often encounter difficulties at finding 4 Mana to cast Aluren without Wall of Roots and I am really missing Wall of Blossoms because they used to provide important card advantage and smoothed out our draws very well combined with the ravens.
Furthermore I feel like if the Manabase has seriously been hurt by the addition of the Taigas to cast the Imperial Recruiters pre combo.
Nevertheless I think, that especially in matchups like ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh playing Recruiter for Eternal Witness or Wall of Blossoms can be a really good alternative to stall until you can combo off safely.
So in my oppinion the Recruiters are really good in this deck and should be played if they are not too expensive for you.
But I still have mixed feelings about Goyf. On the one hand he provides you with a secondary game plan and makes you less dependant on resolving Aluren, but on the other hand he takes away a lot of conssitency, especially as you are supposed to play the control deck in some matchups and walls are much better at helping you to do so than Goyf.
Then I'd still have another question concerning the matchup anlysis in the opening post. It says, that Landstill is very favorable for Aluren, but the modern Landstill builds are all boarding some kind of graveyard removal, like Extirpate, Leyline of the Void or something else.
This makes the plan of therapying their disruption away muss less effective, especially combined with giving them good targets for their otherwise next to useless removal in the form of goyfs. A Landstill player won't sword a Wall of Blossoms/Roots, but definitely a Goyf. This takes away a lot of precious ways to flashback Cabal Therapy as I often don't want to "waste" my goyfs for this purpose. Is the Landstill matchup still favorable taking all those issues into account?
Should Goyf really find a place in Aluren or is it just the normal "hey, let's fit some goyfs into this deck.trend?"
Imho he simply takes away too much consistency, but I am not sureconcerning that.
I had wall of blossoms in my deck for a long time and then this weird thing happened. They would play a goyf at 4/5 and attack. What should i do? block with wall of blossoms? After switching to goyfs, instead of being on a 5-6 turn clock, They would have to remove the goyf before they could attack with their on goyf. This is the main reason that I play goyf over wall of blossoms, goyf can block the most commonly played creature, goyf, all the time. Having a wall of blossoms that cannot block the most played creature seems subpar. You may think that wall of blossoms is better because it draws a card, but what you have to take into consideration is what goyf would do in the best and worst case scenarios. In the worst case scenario is that goyf gets swords to plowshares (they could get smothered or demised but I would think that stp is a more representative case) and you gain life, then they attack you to bring you back to your original lifetotal. so you fog for a turn and get to draw one more card. Wall of blossoms is played, you draw a card, and then they swords it and beat for damage. Net gain is that you draw an extra card and take a turns worth of damage. The net gain is the same in life and cards for both if killed immediately with swords. In best case scenario goyf blocks goyf indefinitely and you therefore stem damage and are able to draw multiple cards. If goyf is big enough to kill wall of blossoms, best case scenario is that wall of blossoms draws an extra card and blocks a turn of damage. I personally would like to block more than a turn of damage so I choose Tarmogoyf, but if you think wall of blossoms will be big enough to block creatures and survive, play wall of blossoms because you end up with one extra card.
Also, for recruiter version i have taken out cabal therapy. it is bad I hit with cabal therapy usually 80% of the time and i would still not play it(people give away their hands by how they play and who doesnt hold force of will for alluren when playing for alluren). you dont have familiars (and in my case blossoms) to sacrifice so their use is diminished. Boarding in Shushers versus them is a good idea vs landstill. It wastes there time and in the late game, only Krosan grip can stop unless you have duress and then if they have stp it gets tricky, anyways, board in shusher and dont worry about therapy, you never have more than 1-2 creatures out usually anyway, and sacrificing them isnt fun. I must admit that the matchup is one of the only times that i would like to have cabal therapy.
That's an excellent question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muradin
I'll bet it applies to a bunch of decks that have added Goyf just because he was so good. Maybe even Threshold.
The reason we play goyf, is because without playing it we have no answer to an opponents goyf. There is no cheaper and more versatile spell in these colors that can conistantly answer tarmogoyf other than tarmogoyf. Its just an added bonus that you can go aggro against certain decks, and that goyf eats hate like none other.
I agree that the goyf is a real problem with this deck. Aluren has historically tended to crush aggro decks as the 4 - 8 wall package stopped the large part of their offence and gave you many turns to set up. With the 'goyf, however, the walls are often relegated to mere chump blockers. So I can see the logic of adding goyfs, as little more than an overcosted (in a $ sense) but bigger wall, plus potential plan B.
i have won countless games where they were focused on the combo, they thoughtseized, then fetched a few times, and then extirpated alluren and with the life loss, goyf made short work of them... when you think about it, thresh only plays 4 goose 4 goyf and maybe an enforcer or something, you can have more beaters than that... the only thing i am wondering right now is what is better, 3 goyfs and 4 wall of roots or 4 goyfs three wall of roots...
I am testing aluren with survival of the fittest into it, and it has worked very well for me. It improves matchup with discard, aggro decks, threshold etc...
I am now playing also a 3 off krosan grip maindeck I have found them more useful than chain of vapor, in particular against counterbalance and humility,
with survival you don't need anymore chain of vapor to combo off you have walls to make mana and tutoring for the combo.
Here is the list I am playing :
4 wall of roots
4 raven familier
4 tarmogoyf
2 man'o war
2 cavern harpi
1 eternal witness
1 shriekmaw
1 genesis
1 squee
1 spike feeder
4 brainstorm
3 cabal therapy
4 aluren
4 survival of the fittest
3 krosan grip
3 bayou
3 tropical island
4 wooded foothils
4 polluted delta
5 forest
1 swamp
1 island
the side is in progress
4 EE
4 blue elemental blast
2 Yixlid
2 tormod's crypt
1 cabal therapy
1 wonder ( against humility+manlands)
1 trygon predator
I hate to say it, but I don't know if you guys forgot or what, but back in the day Aluren players used that little guy that cost 2B, had flying and echo, and when it came into play, you destroyed target non-b, non-art. critter. Is this no longer acceptable? I mean, you can even bounce it for multiple uses and to keep from having to pay the echo. It's obviously worse without Aluren, but I'd say it's cheaper than tossing in 4 goyf-walls. With Aluren it's free mass removal.
Also, why is the brain freeze win not used anymore? I put the deck down for 1 damn year and everything goes back to before. I need an explanation. I was un-needle-able storm turn 4 with Force of Will back-up protection, and some of you even run Cabal Therapies in conjunction. I don't get it.
Pce,Quote:
By the way, by adding Goyfs, this deck just became the most expensive legacy deck of all times....
--DC
Actually, I think old IGGY POP lists had this beat...4x Grims, 8x fetches, Several blue fetches, Intuitions, LED's, and more...I think it's pretty close though, Recruiters are a bitch.
Well, while Bone Shredder is still good, the point of Tarmogoyf is that it can win the game if the board is empty and it attracts all sorts of creature removal and countermagic that would otherwise hinder the combo.
Brain Freeze is unneeded since you can just win by attacking with infinite/infinite creatures and most decks run out of options when you reach infinite life. Besides Merrow Witsniper is just an example of a card you can use to win through milling without any extra mana.
Brain Freeze: You can win instantly, though. You don't have to swing or wait a turn. When Aluren hits, you can win that turn. At instant speed. In response to them winning (this would only really be against Solidarity) even.
Also I'll again point out that it's not a needleable win-con. Stifle, but you can counter it/Therapy it, or you can Eternal Witness infinitely to get it back.
Also, keeping walls instead of Goyfs lets you drop Aluren turn 3, not turn 4.
Also, I don't play the Recruiter version, as that's rediculously high priced for a creature. Goyf would be a better investment, especially at less than 1/2 the price per playset. I'm fine with familiars and intuitions. Props to those with Recruiters, I'm not one of them.
Pce,
--DC
I still don't get your point. Pithing Needle usually names Cavern Harpy and you need Chain of Vapor or Pernicious Deed to get rid of that and go off, that includes storm for Brain Freeze. If you are in a situation where you can make infinite storm for Brain Freeze, you can play and bounce and replay and rebounce Merrow Witsniper instead and get the same effect without worrying about Stifle nor Pithing Needle and without having to save :1::u: first. But even then I would like you to explain what's so bad about having to wait 1 turn once you go off when the only decks still unaffected by the combo are the ones that kill through milling and you can win them by abusing Cabal Therapy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
If you are worried about dropping Aluren sooner than it should, play 4 Tinder Wall and you'll drop it turn 2. Apart from that I think everyone play Wall of Roots, because it's just needed to get infinite mana for Spike Feeder and while Aluren is not in play it means extra mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
The problem with Tarmogoyf is that neither Wall of Roots nor Wall Blossoms can contain it since it eventually becomes 5/6 or more, that's when your own Tarmogoyf becomes necessary. It's also good against aggro since it serves as an additional Wall as well, and able to kill creatures it blocks.
I kept working on Aluren after the release of Future Sight. Tarmogoyf really changed a lot of things for Aluren.
Tarmogoyf started out as a great thing for Aluren. With Aggro-Control being able to drop a 2/3 by Turn 2, or 3/4 by Turn 3 instead of tiny 1/1 guys, Goblins was pushed out of Legacy, and "Mono" Black Aggro-Control was also severaly weakened. Goblins was a slightly favourable matchup for Aluren but Goblins could always win the way Goblins sometimes do with a first turn Goblin Lackey, and Black based Aggro-Control was basically an auto loss for Aluren. Nevertheless, Tarmogoyf also meant Wall of Roots and Wall of Blossoms were not really enough to delay Aggro-Control until Aluren could go off protected.
The obvious change to Aluren is to add Tarmogoyfs. Aluren is a Legacy deck like all the others : regardless how good your deck actually is, Tarmogoyf will make it better. The real question is about which Wall should be cut to make room for these. Cutting Wall of Blossoms removes some card draw, and cutting Wall of Roots removes a combo component as well as a mana fixer. Wall of Roots really shined against Goblins (Rishadan Ports) and Black decks (Sinkhole), while Wall of Blossoms was good against pretty much everything else, so I ended up cutting Wall of Roots. This modifies the combo part though, as you lose a way to go infinite. That barely modifies the Control matchup. Before Tarmogoyf, Control had to use their Swords to Plowshares on your Walls or else Cabal Therapy would simply wreck them, and it still does. After Tarmogoyf, they have to use their Swords for Tarmogoyf, but actually need to spend ressources to found these. If they focus on Goyf, you combo off, otherwise you kill with Goyf. This turns Aluren into a true Control-Combo-Aggro deck (see Bomberman for example), and winning with Goyf happens fairly often.
1 Island
1 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
4 Tropical Island
6 Forest
1 Essence Warden
1 Eternal Witness
1 "X"
2 Cavern Harpy
3 Man-o'-War
3 Wall of Blossoms
4 Raven Familiar
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Aluren
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
The Spike Feeders cannot be used anymore without Wall of Roots enabling infinite mana combo. The Feeder got cut for Essence Warden. This allows the deck to get infinite life very easily with either Man-o'-War or Cavern Harpy, and infinite life pretty much equals winning right now.
Since Man-o'-War becomes a win condition on its own with that change, I was able to cut down another Cavern Harpy, which is great because Cavern Harpy is an ugly card. This card is listed as "X" in the list above, because it can be a lot of things. With Tarmogoyfs, winning using regular beatdown is doable, so you do not really need a dedicated win condition in the deck. This means that slot can be a 4th Wall of Blossoms, for example. I've had good success with Mesmeric Fiend, which is very solid before going off and turns into a win condition on its own too after going off. Rishadan Cutpurse is another option, but is rather weak on its own before you want to win.
Sideboarding is very tricky now. With Goblins out, the Blue Blast plan is not really needed anymore. Nevertheless, with Ichorid and Aggro Loam being the best decks in the format, you need serious weapons against these because these decks are very though matchups. 4 Leyline of the Void seems to be mandatory in the SB. Offalsnout or Heap Doll are other options since they remove Bridge from Below efficiently and can be found using Brainstorm. They are better than Faerie Macabre and Tormod's Crypt. You'll also need Pernicious Deeds, as usual, these are good as a 3-off. Other slots are metagame dependent, I would recommend the 4th Cabal Therapy against Control and a few Blue Elemental Blasts (the remaining Goblins, Countryside Crusher and Devastating Dreams).
Oh, and Tarmogoyf is another reason to stay away from Imperial Recruiter.
wall of blossoms over wall of roots seem subpar because wall of blosoms is rarely big enough to stop tarmogoyf... a tarmogoyf is usually a 4/5 with an instant, sorcery, creature and land in the graveyard... wall of roots can block it but wall of blossoms can not.
Against Threshold variants, Aluren is not going to play spells for a good part of the game. This means that, unless Threshold plays Black for Thoughtseize or Duress, the only card types in graveyards will be Instant, Sorcery and Land (and if Threshold wants to blow Force of Will on a Wall of Blossoms or a Tarmogoyf, fine for me). Wall of Blossoms is good at dealing with 3/4 Tarmogoyfs. Engineered Explosives will change the deal in the end, and even there a Wall of Blossoms is still double Time Walk when facing a 4/5 Tarmogoyf. This along with Man-o'-War was enough to warrant the inclusion of Wall of Blossoms over Wall of Roots. This is good since Wall of Blossoms is better than Wall of Roots in pretty much every single other matchup.
I would really advise against playing essence warden. Even if you don't play wall of roots, i would still go with spike feeder. The fact is, chalice of the void is a very common card, and setting it at 1 is the automatic play 90% of the time. You have no MD answer to this (short of FoW), and your sideboard only has 3 deeds. If their chalices are in the side, you may not even think to bring in the deeds.
I do agree that wall of blossoms is better. I love the necropotence combo, and the ability to draw into what you need. Since i do run the feeder, i use 2 blossoms, 1 roots. The roots does act as an extra land, at the very least, and has a decent sized body. I have been happy with it as a singleton.
My list is pretty much the same as toads. In that x slot, i would suggest running a 3rd wall of blossoms, or a singleton dream stalker. Stalker is big enough to block most goyfs, and its set-back is ussually an advantage for the deck. Re use all your utility creatures, replenish a wall of roots, or bounce a land if you missed a land drop. Stalker also acts as a 4th man-o-war when going off, which is nice when you only have 2 harpy. Most importantly, stalker allows you to play around an opponent's deed. In the land-still MU, this is important, as they can easily force a deed onto the board before you combo off. Normally, you would have to try to force a chain of vapor through, with stalker you can just bounce all your things (including aluren) back into your hand, in response to deed's activation. You only end up loosing a man-o-war, or something equally useless.
I never tried mesmeric fiend, does it really have an effect as a 1-of?
In regards to the sideboard, where are the diverts? I have really loved this card, as it is great against counters, discard, and land destruction. Also, leyline has always been terrible for me. You can't honestly expect to mull into leyline, and still have a playable hand with this deck. I would run extirpate over leyline, offalsnout, doll, crypt, and macabre. Extirpate is also useful in the combo and control MUs.
Toad, have you looked into lim-dul's vault at all? The life loss seems kinda trivial compared to the huge advantage you get from it. The only real problem, is its casting cost. A 1-2 land swing would solve that. I have really liked it in the little testing i have done, with the only problem being a weakened mana base.