[Primer] Elves!

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Originally Posted by Kayradis

Ruric Thar (...)'s such a great tool box card. he shuts down combo and tempo decks relying on counter magic.

IRT Standard hands
1-2 Tutor effect (GSZ/NO)
2 Lands
3 Dorks?!

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Thanks.

Yeah, I'll keep my Ruric for some time, for he seems an interesting option. So far I was able to put it in play against: a Moat-protected Enchantress; Burn; ANT. It did good.

IRT this sample hand, it's not too much different from hands that I seek/keep. But despite, I get too much disrupted. Do you always wait to cast the tutors when you are Spell Pierce-proof?

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Originally Posted by unemployer

(...)
On DNT: On my Turn 3, I fetched and he played the mindcensor. (...) When he played the flickerswisp and then attacked me on the next turn (down to 7 or 8), that's when I had to gamble and play the NO. 3rd card was the Craterhoof and a total of 25 damage, he had 3 creatures, 2 Revokers and 1 Flickerwisp (which is a total of 3 toughness)
(...)

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I see. Against DnT, I remember I sided in NO#4 + Prog., to try to have something "undisruptable" (Prog.). But do you think it's really a good idea, due to his Mincensors making NO/GSZ bad?

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Originally Posted by chinEsE girl

(...) he only had 3 cradles while I'm playing the full 4. Honestly the mirror feels like a coin flip, (...). You just have to keep a hand with either speed or a definite combo turn hand (...).

After sideboard you need the full 4 therapy. Discard is incredibly important since its your best best to interact with their spells in hand. I almost always name natural order, since it kills the quickest and is the easiest to set up. Spells like glimpse and GSZ take more setup to be lethal (...).

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Well, I indeed expected that the speed would be a decising factor on the mirror match. Thanks for the confirmation.

But don't you think that G2, if Cabal Therapy is cast early, it would be better to first name Glimpse to it?

Because if you name NO and he doesn't have one in hand but a Glimpse, he can rapidly resolves the latter "for value", and it could dig him one NO not too unlikely.

On the other hand, if you name Glimpse and he has the NO, it still requires him some time to prepare the NO kill (i.e., to cast some creatures and awaits them lose summoning sickness), what could probably give you one turn to flashback the Therapy now naming the NO.

How does that sound?

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Originally Posted by andrebonotto

Well, I indeed expected that the speed would be a decising factor on the mirror match. Thanks for the confirmation.

But don't you think that G2, if Cabal Therapy is cast early, it would be better to first name Glimpse to it?

Because if you name NO and he doesn't have one in hand but a Glimpse, he can rapidly resolves the latter "for value", and it could dig him one NO not too unlikely.

On the other hand, if you name Glimpse and he has the NO, it still requires him some time to prepare the NO kill (i.e., to cast some creatures and awaits them lose summoning sickness), what could probably give you one turn to flashback the Therapy now naming the NO.

How does that sound?

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I'm not scared of a turn 2 glimpse, the times when it will kill you turn 2 are too rare for me to worry about it. Also, on turn 3, I am infinitely more scared of a NO then glimpse. Undisrupted boards will kill you with a T3 NO almost every time. Unless I did some crazy shit and got a bunch of guys down, I'll just be dead on board, and even if I do have enough toughness to survive I'll have no board against someone with a hoof plus other elves. The way I generally play my therapies is to do it the turn previous to the critical turn of the matchup. So here that means turn 3. This means I start off with a mana dork T1, then more creatures plus therapy on T2. This line of play basically means that I establish my board, have a decent amount of mana available, and I will keep my opponent from hoofing on his T3. It comes down to what I said before, NO takes the least set up to be lethal, so it becomes the most dangerous card in the matchup. If you can resolve it with even just 4 creatures in play, the other player has to sacrifice their entire board just to have a chance at staying alive.

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Originally Posted by andrebonotto

Thanks.
I see. Against DnT, I remember I sided in NO#4 + Prog., to try to have something "undisruptable" (Prog.). But do you think it's really a good idea, due to his Mincensors making NO/GSZ bad?

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Both NO and GSZ are risky due to the fact you only pray good cards on the top of your library but GSZ is actually better in this scenario since it can fetch at least 20 1cc creatures and 4 Visionaries. Playing NO is paying 4 mana, sacrificing a creature and getting a 1-2cc Elf :| :cry:

Anyway, as promised, below is my decklist. Feel free to comment :)

1 birchlore rangers
1 llanowar elves
4 deathrite shaman
4 wirewood symbiote
4 quirion ranger
4 nettle sentinel
4 heritage druid
1 wirewood hivemaster
4 elvish visionary
1 elvish archdruid
1 viridian shaman
2 craterhoof behemoth

3 natural order
1 beck // call
4 green sun's zenith
4 glimpse of nature

2 wooded foothills
1 misty rainforest
4 verdant catacombs
2 bayou
1 savannah
1 tropical island
3 gaea's cradle
1 dryad arbor
2 forest

sideboard:
1 gaddock teeg
4 cabal therapy
2 mindbreak trap
1 flusterstorm
2 abrupt decay
1 natural order
1 dryad arbor
1 progenitus
1 harmonic sliver
1 sylvan library

In the mirror, you name Glimpse before NO because they aren't gonna lethal you with NO before turn three unless they also have a Glimpse chain going simultaneously.

I am seriously considering follow Lemnear and making birchlore ranger a 4 of. The card is the main enable to go off turn 2 and is as effective, if not more, than a Llanowar or anything else.

Im still convinced that Ruric has a place in the MD, but I do believe the list require further testing.

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Originally Posted by Kayradis

I am seriously considering follow Lemnear and making birchlore ranger a 4 of. The card is the main enable to go off turn 2 and is as effective, if not more, than a Llanowar or anything else.

Im still convinced that Ruric has a place in the MD, but I do believe the list require further testing.

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T1 Nettle, T2 Birchlore is a nasty Way to fire off a T2 Glimpse and cycle through your deck with 1cc doods, drop cradle for a bazillion mana and hardcast, NO, GSZ.

With Birchlore you'll be able to drop all your doods turn 2 and go nuts turn 3 out of the range of any spell pierce or Daze for any Tutor which you may cast turn 3.

I would at least test the Birchlores in the crappy slots of Llanowar, Priest and company. Add a 4th cradle if possible. You'll love it

My friends keep saying that Cradle will get the banhammer -_-

Because of this I only run 3 (got them before the hype)

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

T1 Nettle, T2 Birchlore is a nasty Way to fire off a T2 Glimpse and cycle through your deck with 1cc doods, drop cradle for a bazillion mana and hardcast, NO, GSZ.

With Birchlore you'll be able to drop all your doods turn 2 and go nuts turn 3 out of the range of any spell pierce or Daze for any Tutor which you may cast turn 3.

I would at least test the Birchlores in the crappy slots of Llanowar, Priest and company. Add a 4th cradle if possible. You'll love it

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My list currently runs the 4 Cradles. Its simply too good to be ignored. I even run Crop Rotation as a 1-off to be even more degenerate.
Right now at this point, what annoys me is my lack of good-looking birchlore rangers (read here : I only have 1 foil.....)
My main goal for the tournament last weekend was to combo off turn 2. I can totally see that happenning with 4 x Birchlore, 2-3 x Quirion.

Whats you opinion on the Crop Rotation?
I find it really neat to tap cradle for bazillion, cycle it to another cradle, tap for a bazillion, crop+sac, Cradle, Ezuri, Overrun a retarded amount of time?

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Found it:
http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/427147076
1 hour 23 minutes in.


... This is painful to watch, and Christian is a fool. He could have had a turn 3 Jitte game one... What the hell was he thinking?

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I just watched this. She is a terrible Elves player... Does anyone know of videos of people playing the deck really well?

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Originally Posted by Kayradis

My list currently runs the 4 Cradles. Its simply too good to be ignored. I even run Crop Rotation as a 1-off to be even more degenerate.
Right now at this point, what annoys me is my lack of good-looking birchlore rangers (read here : I only have 1 foil.....)
My main goal for the tournament last weekend was to combo off turn 2. I can totally see that happenning with 4 x Birchlore, 2-3 x Quirion.

Whats you opinion on the Crop Rotation?
I find it really neat to tap cradle for bazillion, cycle it to another cradle, tap for a bazillion, crop+sac, Cradle, Ezuri, Overrun a retarded amount of time?

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For me the testing with Rotation and 2 Regals/4 NO (all for drawing my deck in a turn without Glimpse) a while back showed me that the Cradle-Rotation is just a win-more and the results remained after my switch to 2 hoofs as the only fatties.

If you are able to drop turn 2 and 3 a Cradle it's already more mana that you can usefully invest. If you sum up the cost of ezuri and the Overrun Ability you might end up with the idea that Craterhoof does the same damage for less mana AND as haste. With GSZ for Hoof being the Top end of your manacurve at 9 mana between 4 Cradles, 4 nettles, 4 Birchlores and 4 Hertiage druids, the mana boost with crop Rotation proofed unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

For me the testing with Rotation and 2 Regals/4 NO (all for drawing my deck in a turn without Glimpse) a while back showed me that the Cradle-Rotation is just a win-more and the results remained after my switch to 2 hoofs as the only fatties.

If you are able to drop turn 2 and 3 a Cradle it's already more mana that you can usefully invest. If you sum up the cost of ezuri and the Overrun Ability you might end up with the idea that Craterhoof does the same damage for less mana AND as haste. With GSZ for Hoof being the Top end of your manacurve at 9 mana between 4 Cradles, 4 nettles, 4 Birchlores and 4 Hertiage druids, the mana boost with crop Rotation proofed unnecessary.

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The idea of running Ezuri as a singleton came from my cardpool partner. I was not too fond initially of that idea, but after some testing, it proved itself to be a good alternate win-con, and the fact that he can protect other elfs from bolt/damage removal is quite useful. It's a different choice and at 3CMC screw up a little bit of our curve. I am not 100% sure if its the right choice, but I'm a strong advocate of heavy testing with him as a 1-off. He made some hands keepable when they wouldn't be in some case. I just don't like putting all my eggs in the same basket.

Give him a try.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

T1 Nettle, T2 Birchlore is a nasty Way to fire off a T2 Glimpse and cycle through your deck with 1cc doods, drop cradle for a bazillion mana and hardcast, NO, GSZ.

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It's not possible to do it unless you are running crop rotation. If you cast turn one nettle, then you need to do turn two Glimpse of nature and drop another land to play birchlore and start comboing... so if you draw a cradle you can't play it because you already made your land drop.

By the way, i like crop rotation very much : it allows to get a cradle when you already dropped a land, it finds other utility lands like dryad arbor or horizon canopy, it fuels deathrite shaman, it counters wasteland, it allows to run bojuka bog and karakas in sideboard wich i find very useful. The fact that you are down a land if you meet a counterspell on crop rotation is a big disadvantage, but anyway our opponents will likely save their counterspells for glimpse or natural order. In my opinion it's correct to run 3 cradles 2 rotations.

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Originally Posted by chinEsE girl

I'm not scared of a turn 2 glimpse, the times when it will kill you turn 2 are too rare for me to worry about it. Also, on turn 3, I am infinitely more scared of a NO then glimpse. Undisrupted boards will kill you with a T3 NO almost every time. Unless I did some crazy shit and got a bunch of guys down, I'll just be dead on board, and even if I do have enough toughness to survive I'll have no board against someone with a hoof plus other elves. The way I generally play my therapies is to do it the turn previous to the critical turn of the matchup. So here that means turn 3. This means I start off with a mana dork T1, then more creatures plus therapy on T2. This line of play basically means that I establish my board, have a decent amount of mana available, and I will keep my opponent from hoofing on his T3. It comes down to what I said before, NO takes the least set up to be lethal, so it becomes the most dangerous card in the matchup. If you can resolve it with even just 4 creatures in play, the other player has to sacrifice their entire board just to have a chance at staying alive.

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Right. I understand your reasoning, but I think I'm still inclined, as igri_is_a_bk, to first name Glimpse with Therapy.

In fact, I really don't know if it will do too much of a difference whichever one I name first, since if I cast it "the turn previous to the critical turn" (that would be my T2, if I'm on the draw; or my T3, if I'm on the play), I'll probably have an extra creature to spare to flashback it and name the other threat.

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Originally Posted by unemployer

Both NO and GSZ are risky due to the fact you only pray good cards on the top of your library but GSZ is actually better in this scenario since it can fetch at least 20 1cc creatures and 4 Visionaries. Playing NO is paying 4 mana, sacrificing a creature and getting a 1-2cc Elf (...)

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Agreed. But if you are in train of casting a GSZ under Mindcensor, I guess it would be better to set X=:2: if possible (may be a little more difficult if Thalia is in play too), since this way you have the chance of also getting a Visionary, should it be on the top 4 cards, right?

IRT to your list, when do you tutor for the Hivemaster? Do you only do it if you resolved Beck / Call?

I've moved away from Priest / Archdruid for some time. How does the Archdruid has been performing for you?

I'm using an Ooze on MD "flex slot", (plus one more on SB,) but sometimes I think of switching it for an Ezuri.

Played legacy at my LGS tonight and managed to go 3-1 and take 2nd place. Won round 1-3 against Burn (2-0), Maverick (2-1) and BUG Delver (2-0) and lost the final round against Bug Delver (0-2). After going 4-0 with almost the same deck a few weeks ago I feel like I wanted to try and change a few cards (MD -1 Quirion Ranger +1 Birchlore Ranger, SB -1 Thorn of the Amethyst -1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben +1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed +1 Viridian Shaman). Deck feels very strong right now and I think I am almost at the "perfect 60" for my playstyle with the deck.

2 Birchlore Rangers
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elvves
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Priest of Titiania
1 Regal Force
1 Craterhoof Behemoth

3 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature

9 "green fetch"
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Gaea's Cradle
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest

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4 Cabal Therapy
1 Natural Order
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Progenitus
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Abrupt Decay

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Originally Posted by andrebonotto

Agreed. But if you are in train of casting a GSZ under Mindcensor, I guess it would be better to set X=:2: if possible (may be a little more difficult if Thalia is in play too), since this way you have the chance of also getting a Visionary, should it be on the top 4 cards, right?

IRT to your list, when do you tutor for the Hivemaster? Do you only do it if you resolved Beck / Call?

I've moved away from Priest / Archdruid for some time. How does the Archdruid has been performing for you?

I'm using an Ooze on MD "flex slot", (plus one more on SB,) but sometimes I think of switching it for an Ezuri.

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Hivemaster is my fuel for Cradle, Craterhoof and as well as Beck/Call. As many know, Beck works differently with Glimpse. Any creature entering the battlefield will get you to draw cards so by chaining Hivemaster, I get to nut draw until I go crazy. The Hivemaster gave me enough creatures to win on the DnT matchup where I had 4 token and 5 Elves. When I topdecked the Cradle, I GSZed the Hoof. If I only had 5 Elves that time, I won't be able to GSZ the Hoof.

For the Archdruid, I tried using Priest but I usually board it out since it doesn't due much than generate mana. But with the Archdruid, an extra buff made a lot of difference if I cannot GSZ or NO for hoof.

My Flex slot is Viridian Shaman because the last meta, there were around 4-5 DnT and 3-5 Deathblade/Mavericks and Jitte is a big pain. I do not put too much graveyard hate because I have DRS and I do not focus much on the GY due to the meta. I was going to use Ezuri that time but I left it at home so I just stuck with the Shaman.

Without testing it myself, I have to agree with Lemnear and Zombie about Ruric Thar against RUG Delver. In my experience it is the turn 1 Delver with some counters/disruption that is hard to beat and I don't think that Ruric Thar helps there since it is getting him into play that is the hard part.

In my last two tournaments I've been running one Scavenging Ooze main and been really happy with it along with another one in the sideboard. I actually won more games on the back of Deathrite Shaman and Scavenging Ooze than Craterhoof. :smile:
I tend to GSZ for Scavenging Ooze against removal-heavy decks when I don't have either one of Symbiote/Visionary or Glimpse and need action in one card. It can also catch some opponents off guard after sideboard when they are prepared for dealing with Elves-combo and have to handle Deathrite Shamans and Scavenging Oozes along with Abrupt Decay, discard and Natrual Order for Progenitus.
I have played a lot of Punishing Maverick and I like Scavenging Ooze even more in Elves because in Elves the opponent is also under the constant threat of you comboing off so they tend to let Ooze live.

My current problem in my meta is finding a better plan against Perish. When pure control decks play sweepers it is not that bad because you almost always have time to rebuild your board. But the problem comes from decks like Esper Deathblade, "Team Italia" or BW Stoneforge decks that can put on some pressure along with Perish. Does anyone have suggestions on how to handle those situations?

Don't overextend unless you have the kill.
Sorry, I don't really know how to explain it. When facing a deck that I know have the possibility to side in perish G2/G3, I try to be as conservative as possible and not overextend. Just let them deal with your threat.

Bring in progenitus? :D

Progenitus I think is the answer against anything slower than we are that has answers to us. DnT, Goblins, Nic Fit, Deathblade, Burn. Hell if you can drop it against Merfolk too it rocks. Mosty since Thar is not that useful against Fish. Against Delver I think if you can drop Pro you are going to have it. Thar will not win you the game against Delver twice. Not if the pilot is half skilled and knows what he is doing. Basicly if the deck has creatures you don't want Thar. Against Control he is a God. OmniShow hate him, Reanimator, Miracles, Countertop, ANT... You get the point. The card is good and in the right meta it is main deck material, but make sure Pro is in your 75 somewhere.

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Originally Posted by Kayradis

Bring in progenitus? :D

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Bringing in progenitus against an opponent who plays Perish is not a very smart move. Progenitus dies to Perish.

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Originally Posted by LeoCop 90

Progenitus dies to Perish.

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Thanks for the hint. Didn't knew that.