Culling the weak enables you to play turn 2 6 drops around daze, which I saw him do a number of times throughout the day yesterday and during the trial.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
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Culling the weak enables you to play turn 2 6 drops around daze, which I saw him do a number of times throughout the day yesterday and during the trial.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
Thanks for your thoughts!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
Deathrite is sometimes in and out, i played with 1 MD and 1 SB successfully, but it was a time i also played a pair of deeds. Meanwhile the meta is more than good enough to justify 3 (or 4) deeds, so i cutted DS (but i know, that a DS-Effect help with all the Treasure Cruise Decks, so Ooze is more important than ever). In the past Nic Fit easily outgrind some decks and win most games with all the late game bombs, now with the Delve-Draw-Search-Spells, blue Decks can recover easily (especially from discard-disruption)... that was the reason i thought that repeatable Removal (Punishing Fire) is the way to go, if you will outgrind your opponent. Besides TNN most Legacy Creatures easily die to Punishing Fire (Delver, Swiftspear, Pyromancer, Deathrite, Stoneforge, new White-Hatepriest etc). In this case, it doesn't matter if Treasure Cruise draws 3 more cards, because even a drawn Playset Lightning Bolts can't kill you if you managed to keep the Creatures in check (and also gain some life with your own EtB Creatures/hungry Ooze).
1) Yeah maybe you are right, but Titan + Kessig + X (Groove or more Ramp) won me ton of Games with Punishing Fit, even Kessig alone worked good for me. I like the Idea of an Crop Rotation build with Karakas, Bojuka Bog, Maze and the new Titania, but maybe it isn't made for a Nic Fit deck.
2) Right, but i don't know which lands can be cut (maybe -1 Tower +1 Badlands/Fetch).
3) and 4) Yeah maybe a lower curve is a good idea, not every UR Delver Deck uses Spell Pierce, so Batterskull can be a nice tech! I hope we see sometimes a Creature like Wren's Run Packmaster for Elves, Tutorable, and able to take a Game over fast enough and relative Removal proof.
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Titania / Commander 2014:
Included her in a Scapeshift Shell and liked her the few test games i made. Returning a land is good in Scapeshift, because a) you need many lands and b) Scapeshifts Manabase is weak to Wasteland etc.
Sadly most Nic Fit Shells doesn't play enough Fetchlands because we need all the Basics thanks to Explorer, so a "land shell" with Crop Rotation etc. shoud clearly a better way to abuse Titanias Ability.
Titania is more a "Six Drop" because you can't jam her on the table and wait (unless you face decks with only Decay-Removal stuff, like BUG Delver). You need her and a Fetch to profit (which means enemy Deathrites are also not an issue), but with a single Activation you get a 2 for 1 and 10 Power for 5 Mana. As i said, Nic Fit tends to grind Games out, but sometimes we all wish for more fast ways (Titans etc.) to win a Game in a few blows (like the real power from Miracle: Entreat the Angels...). It is easy enough to play a controled game with a Nic Fit shell, but sometimes it isn't easy to kill your opponent fast enough (especially with 3 Games in 50mins).
Conclusion: Titania maybe isn't good enough, but it is the right design direction for Nic Fit to gain some more "raw" power.
What do people think of Volcanic Fallout? UR Delver and Elves seem to be running fairly rampant at the moment, this cleans up everything except swiftspear pretty easily and can't be dazed/forced. I'm going to try two out tonight in a Punishing Fit build. I also want to throw a Nicol Bolas in the deck, because why not? I'm not sure on the best way to fit blue mana in though.
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
Put an Tropical Island or an Underground Sea instead of one of the duals? Or an island instead of a basic? Or cut a fetch?
Eh ... Fallout, like Toxic Deluge, is generally too slow against Elves! Also, Ive rarely had trouble against low to the ground aggro strategies in the past, but I have to say Delver is the main problem, simply because it goes over most of our creatures and trades favorably in terms of tempo if removed. Id consider a singleton Scryb Ranger to block it indefinitely, forcing them to overextend into Deed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
Deed will handle everything Fallout does, while being applicable against many more decks at the expense of a few more mana.
Alright guys, so for a post-c14 Nic Fit Scapeshift build, this is where I'm at:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Wood Elves
2 Dualcaster Mage
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
2 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Burning Wish
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Scapeshift
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Verdant Catacomb
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
3 Badland
2 Bayou
2 Stomping Ground
3 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Kessig Wolf Run
Sideboard:
3 Pyroblast
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Slaughter Games
1 Ruination
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pyroclasm
1 Innocent Blood
1 Dreadbore
1 Thoughtseize
1 Scapeshift
1 Massacre
Thoughts?
Went 2-1-1 yesterday at my local, last chance for Legacy before the GP. Made a couple SB changes, adding Golgari Charm being the most notable.
I didn't face a single Brainstorm in 4 rounds, haha. Drew with Enchantress (naturally), beat Burn (Thragtusk off the top is good against them), lost to D&T, beat Elves.
One thing I'm trying to figure out is when we should be boarding out VetEx, if ever. I lost to D&T in game 2 because he hardcast Batterskull, then played Armageddon. (That was... unexpected, but super good). Granted that's the two trumpiest trump cards that they have, but I still felt funny giving them all those basics. Burn also makes me queasy because of Fireblast.
Another thing I've noticed is that I tend to flood out a lot, especially if I don't have Library/Top. Though there has been times when I have been looking for outs and found three lands off my Library. Is that common with this deck? I play 9 fetches, 6 basics, 5 duals, Tower, and Karakas. In my first build of the deck I played Nylea, God of the Hunt, but cut her, but I really feel like some sort of mana sink token maker would be great (as opposed to a Garruk or something that doesn't use mana and can only be activated once per turn). Wren's Run Packmaster, suggested above, would be great if we had more elves. Here are some other ideas:
Heliod, God of the Sun
Budoka Gardener
Jade Magea
Master of the Hunt (lol bands with other)
Nemata, Grove Guardian
Soul of Zendikar
Selesnya Guildmage
Hydra Broodmaster
They all seem mostly terrible, except maybe Soul of Zendikar, since you can get some value if it's in your GY. Maybe none of it's right. I am so tempted to try Kessig Wolf Run but it seems so greedy.
I board out Vets vs Miracles, High Tide and Cloudpost and will shave some vs OmniTell/Show and Tell. I'll sometimes shave them for more blue cards or for thoughtseize vs other combo decks, depending on the variant. It sucks to have Death and Taxes hardcast a Cataclysm on turn two, but the amount of times that will happen compared to you running them over with a huge bomb favors keeping the Explorers in, in my opinion.
Flooding is something that will just happen if you're playing 22 lands and your only library manipulation is Top. I think I've lost more games due to missing a color or flooding than to anything else, even with 4 Brainstorm in my deck.
Went 1-2 in my weekly local last night with Siege-Fit. Here is my current list.
Round 1: UR Delver 0-2
Round 2: Tin Fins 1-2
Round 3: Bant 2-0
Details on the UR match?Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
The other two results are expected.
I would love some help with my plays, I am still new to this deck. Here is the UR match breakdown:Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Game 1: He wins the roll and starts off with Island -> Git Probe (my hand is 3 Fetch, Archangel, Reclamation Sage, Selvala, Green Sun's Zenith) -> Delver. I draw a Tusk, play a fetch, and pass the turn. He doesn't flip the delver, plays a fetch -> volc, ponders, beats for 1, then plays delver #2. I draw Top, play another fetch, and drop to 17 to GSZ for Veteran Explorer. On his upkeep, he flips both Delvers, adds a land, and attacks with both. I drop to 11, and he adds a young pyromancer to the board before cantripping and adding a token. I draw Cabal Therapy, play a fetch, cabal therapy him. It resolves, and I name lightning bolt (potential mistake: should have named Brainstorm). I see a hand of Bolt, Fire/Ice, Brainstorm, Ponder. I sac Veteran to flashback, he gets an island and a mountian and brainstorms in response to cabal. Cabal resolves, I name Fire/Ice (potential mistake: since he brainstormed I maybe should have named something else), he shows Ponder Delver Git Probe. I play Selvala and a Top with my extra mana for the turn, and pass back to him. He git probes, ponders forgetting his YP token trigger, plays a delver, and attacks with his air force putting me down to 5. Back on my turn, I draw land, play land, play Archangel (potential mistake: probably should have played tusk here in the face of multiple delvers). On his turn, he flips his 3rd delver, fire/ice's to tap the Archangel, attacks with everything. I block young peezy, activate selvala for the heck of it, and I see cabal therapy and he shows flooded strand. I am dead anyways to 9 damage in the air.
In: 2 Toxic Deluge, 1 Carpet of Flowers, 2 Ethersworn Canonist (I have no idea if this is right, and in hindsight I should have also boarded in Choke)
Out: 1 Cabal Therapy, 1 Veteran Explorer, 1 Reclamation Sage (mistake as I later remember he has Sulf Vortex), 1 Council's Judgment, 1 Gaddock Teeg
Game 2: I keep a hand with 3 Lands, 1 zenith, 1 Top, 1 Deed, 1 Cabal Therapy. I play land, Therapy him naming Delver of Secrets. He shows me Fire/Ice, Vortex, Bolt, and 4 Lands. He goes Land pass. I draw Top, GSZ for Veteran Explorer, flashback cabal therapy naming sulfuric vortex. He reveals that he drew his 2nd vortex, and is left with bolt, Fire/Ice, and 3 lands. I play my top and leave 1 mana up to top at the end of his turn. He draws, plays land into swiftspear and attacks me for 1. I activate top and see something on the lines of Sun Titan, Land, Land, putting land on top. On my turn, I play Deed, a land, and pass. He brainstorms, probes, then attacks, putting me to 16 (I had fetched). I decide to let the attack through and see if he commits more to the board. He doesn't, so I just top at eot seeing Sun Titan, Land, and STP, putting STP on top. I draw, play a land, and pass. On his turn, he ponders, attacks with swiftspear, and I blow deed for 1. He adds a young pyromancer to the board. I draw sun titan, STP the pyromancer which resolves, and pass back. He plays 2 swiftspear, cantrips, attacks with swiftspears, and then treasure cruises. I top at eot and find the land I need for sun titan as well as cabal therapy and abzan charm. I play land, sun titan, get deed back. He attacks with 2 swiftspears, I block one, he cantrips and bolts sun titan trading with swiftspear and I take 3 from the other. He plays delver and young pyromancer then passes. I play deed with 2 mana up and pass. He attacks, I blow deed for 2. He treasure cruises 2 times, and plays young pyromancer. I top and see abrupt decay, cabal therapy and abzan charm, I put decay on top and decay on my turn. He cantrips 2 times, finds a delver, passes back. I draw abzan charm, pass back. he flips, attacks and I abzan charm delver. He cantrips, plays young pyromancer and bolts me to make a token. I top and see cabal therapy, land, top. I can't find a creature or an answer for the YP for the rest of the game, and lose.
Any advice would be appreciated.
It sounds like game 2 you could have waited a couple of turns before playing the deed to get him to commit more to the board; getting hit for like 9 with the swiftspear would suck, but is unlikely. How come you didn't use STP on the swiftspear?
Also, what is the typical junk answer to cruising? I usually try to get glen elendra down or force in hand asap so they can't refuel.
Yeah, waiting with the deed would have made more sense now that I think about it. Is it bad to use deed as a 1 for 1? Say your opponent probes you and knows it's there, if you have no other removal do you use it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliq
As for junk answer to cruising I didn't really think we needed to answer it, but rather beat it by going bigger on the board and gaining lots of life. If I get a scavenging ooze early I will try to keep their yard small, but there are usually plenty of other things to be doing in the early game.
Check out this scapewish deck that just top 8'd:
Link
Bobs, no fetches, duals or tops. Budget issues, possibly?Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
Could be. Bob probably wouldn't be as horrid in Scapewish as he is in most other Nic Fits, though, due to the higher land count -- even if he gets blown up at some point, he's still going to draw you a few cards and hopefully not eat up too many life points.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone2016
Honestly, without Tops, there's no reason for fetches in this deck. Top obviously makes Bob better, though, and I can't see why you'd run one without the other in this style of deck. The lack of duals is a red flag as well.
Still, pretty sweet that he top 8'd even with a budget version of the deck!
Honestly, I think that goes to show the raw power of a scapewish build. I will highly advocate it even though I have literally only played 5 matches with the deck.
I have played legacy for just over 8 years now and there are 2 things that immediately come to mind when I was playing this deck this past sunday:
1) This deck is fun as hell to play...like I mean REALLY fun.
2) Since Survival of the Fittest, I can't recall a deck I played with that had so much raw power. The threat density, the multiple ways of winning, stabilizing, hand destruction, etc.
Basically, I feel that scapewish if put in the hands of a competent pilot will wreak havoc on the current meta.
This. This is why I am playing the deck at GP NJ. I am not 100% sold on my build but I feel like it gives me game versus almost everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanzoll
I just REALLY want to see either Stormbreath Dragon or Siege Rhino get some camera time. Also, no I do not play standard.
I will definitely be on Scape for the GP, still hammering out some final numbers and will be testing 1-2 Dualcaster Mage but I'm 100% set on the deck. Top 4d a GPT over the weekend. I would post a summary of my games but didn't really get any new information from any of them. Rounds were:
2-0 Elves
2-0 UR Delver
2-1 UR Delver
1-2 Elves
1-2 Elves
2-1 UR Delver
Into top 8
2-1 UWR Delver
1-2 Elves
Nice metagame, lol. Over all these UR Delver games, Thragtusk did insane work, but costing 5 mana it was harder to cast through Daze than I liked. We need to gain a few points of life to beat that deck, so at Kevin's suggestion, I'm going to try out an Obstinate Baloth over the 2nd Thrag, to have access to large chunks of life gain at multiple spots on the GSZ curve. Both creatures die to double bolt but at least Baloth doesn't trade with Delver or with Pyromancer tokens quite as easily. It's obviously worse against Miracles but I'm comfortable enough with the Miracles matchup- especially with Dualcaster to double up on Decays and steal their Entreats- that I'm okay with that tradeoff.
The GPT confirmed that our deck is quite strong vs Delver and that Elves is rough if we don't get to cast our interactive spells, but none of that is really news. Made me consider a 2nd or even a 3rd Pyroclasm in my sideboard, which is something I've and liked done in the past, but not sure yet what I'd cut. Will post my GP list when I finalize it next week, pending some testing with Dualcaster and some more thought. I did quite well last year and I think this metagame has the potential to be even more favorable for us than it was at GPDC when everyone had just discovered True-Name Nemesis, so I feel very confident in this deck choice.