[Deck] Vial Goblins

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

I've been thinking of the relative merit to running Chalice in the Maindeck and I wanted to run something past you all. Chalice @1 seems like the best 2-drop play we could have right now. For a few reasons. ....
1st, your 1-drop should already be played on T1, so a T2 Chalice shouldn't be too disruptive.
2nd, we have really good removal spells in the 2-drop spot, but our 1-drop removal is weak. Tarfire is pretty bad late game and is terrible against combo and control MUs where running a Chalice would be much stronger. Whereas our 2-drops (Stingscourger, Gempalm, Warren Weirding, Sparksmith) have a much higher power level than Tarfire.
3rd, if you can resolve a Chalice @1 you've essentially cut off your opponent's ability to cast removal spells. If you're playing a deck with a high concentration of removal targets (Lords, Piledrivers, Krenkos, etc) they will be a bigger threat.
4th, (and most obvious) we can play a game with 8 1-drops. The rest of the format plays 20.

I put together a list that's heavy on 2-drop removal, has many must-answer creatures, and still keeps the goblin count at 30...

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Piledriver
2 Sparksmith
2 Warren Weirding
2 Stingscourger
2 Gempalm
2 Warchief
2 Chieftain
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
2 Krenko
3 Chalice
1 Pyrokinesis
22 lands

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Funny. Was thinking about Chalice since you posted your list earlier this week and increasingly liked the idea. Main reason for me is that my current list is relying heavily (or: soley) on winning with 3 Krenkos. Now there is Fatal Push on the one hand, and the popularity of BUG decks (Shardless and Team A.) that used to have no answer for Krenko on the other hand. Chalice just Fits in there.

4 Caverns
4 Ports
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
10 Mountain

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
4 Warchief

4 MWM
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Krenko
1 Stingscourger
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
3 Chalice of the Void

Any input in the SB?

Oe, I like your list, Gobolord! I am tempted to try your list... Try Eidolon in your sb , and Blood Moon :-)

I also like Chalice here.

@GoboLord
My maindeck suggestion would be
+1 Karakas
-1 Port

Krenko + Karakas protection makes it much harder for decks to deal with your win condition, while adding one more maindeck weapon vs Sneak & Show and Reanimator.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Funny. Was thinking about Chalice since you posted your list earlier this week and increasingly liked the idea. Main reason for me is that my current list is relying heavily (or: soley) on winning with 3 Krenkos. Now there is Fatal Push on the one hand, and the popularity of BUG decks (Shardless and Team A.) that used to have no answer for Krenko on the other hand. Chalice just Fits in there.

4 Caverns
4 Ports
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
10 Mountain

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
4 Warchief

4 MWM
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Krenko
1 Stingscourger
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
3 Chalice of the Void

Any input in the SB?

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So I've had a rough couple of finishes lately, culminating in a stark 0-4 in my last week of legacy. Part of it was my inability to draw more than 2 lands a lot of games, but part of it was lack of ability to put on a clock. I also got 2 ringleaders eaten by a flashbacked therapy against Nic Fit, which won him the game 100%, so there's that. My losses were; Nic Fit, BR Reanimator (mulled to 5 game 2, didn't see a hate piece despite boarding in a ton; also learned a lesson of bring in Pyrokinesis because it can beat a turn 1 Sire of Insanity on the draw), Splinter Twin (where we both flooded but I flooded harder and died to getting attacked by a deceiver exarch for 7 turns), and UR Delver. I also had the distinct sour taste in my mouth of connecting with lackey multiple times and having nothing to put in. I got hit with variance, but my deck configuration also has some significant flaws.

As a result of this, I'm making some significant changes to my next build. Taking a cue from the most recent top 8 finishes, I'm gonna split up my finisher slots with a 1-1-1 split between Krenko, Kiki, and Siege-Gang. Also gonna try out a 2-2 split between Warchief and Chieftain. Unlike a lot of people, I'm not a huge fan of Warchief in general, and if a hypothetical "good" goblin gets printed, I feel like this will be the one to get shaved. Today's legacy plays to the board so much that it's hard to keep Warchief around, and I find myself reluctant to ever cast it unless it I can immediately cast other goblin before it dies. This makes it "slower" tempo-wise than Chieftain, which you can often cast on turn 3 and then get a significant attack in. Double chieftain also allows creatures to survive effects like Pyroclasm/Kozileks return, which a singleton doesn't. I'm not saying it's likely that I'll be in that position often, but it is a factor.

I'm also dropping the white splash from my list for the sake of my manabase, which has felt very unstable and wasteland vulnerable. Dropping Thalias and the Canonist is risky against spell based combo, but I don't see a whole ton of that, and Cabal Therapy and Mindbreak trap can fulfill similar roles. I'm waiting to receive some cards in the mail for now, but here's how my list will be built until I get them. I would really appreciate some advice for how to fit in the cards I'm getting (1 Kiki, 1 Chalice of the Void, 1 Magus of the Moon)

Artifacts: 4
4 Aether Vial

Creatures: 30
4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
3 Gempalm
3 Piledriver
2 Warchief
2 Chieftain
2 Mogg War Marshal
1 Prospector
1 Krenko
1 Stingscourger
1 Siege Gang
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Sharpshooter

Instants: 3
2 Tarfire
1 Pyrokinesis

Lands: 23
5 Fetches
4 Mountains
4 Caverns
4 Wasteland
3 Port
2 Badlands
1 Karakas

Sideboard:
2 Pyro
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Graf Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Earwig Squad
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Blood Moon
1 Warping Wail
1 Relic
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Mindbreak Trap

So to fit in Kiki to the maindeck, and Magus and Chalice to the side; I was thinking Magus could just replace the regular Blood Moon, though having a moon effect that doesn't die to punishing fire is pretty important. On the flip side, Magus can be vialed in, or cast off of a cavern to get around daze.

Chalice could possible replace the Earwig Squad, assuming I could fit that into the maindeck, which I could do by shaving a piledriver. Earwig hits pretty hard, so that's not too bad, but then my curve starts to look pretty high. Its also possible that a single chalice isn't impactful enough to have by itself, since you usually want it in your opening hand.

Thanks everyone!

Hi, picked up the deck for the first time this week and made 2:1:1 in my LSG. I've played version which placed 3rd of 186 people with modified mana base (only 8 white sources) and I played extra Rishadan Port instead of Skirk Prospector.

My Sb was:
1* Karakas (1 was main already, also to up white source count)
2* Containment Priest
3* Thalia, guardian of thraben
1* sudden demise
2* pyrokinesis
1* faerie macabre
1* relic of progenitus
2* Magus of the moon
1* wear / tear
1* pithing needle

My meta consists of: several Miracles, death and Taxes, 4c midrange, 4c delver, snt, Gy based combo decks, bug decks. I am mostly DnT player and feel like naked leaving Thalia, Karakas and Containment priest at home :-).

R1: 2:0 show and tell. This was funny game. I mulled to 5 to have an out against fast show and tell. My opening was: mountain, mountain, matron, stingscourger, gem palm. I get T1 snt into griselbrand over tomb + petal. Griselbrand draws 7 in resp to stingscourger trigger. Then I get snt'ed next turn (tomb+fetch) , putting matron into play, searching for second stingscourger. Play it, he responds with draw 7 in resp to find FoW, but ends in one life and can't force my stingscourger. G2 I open Cavern lackey go with heavy mana denial hand backed with Karakas and containment.

R2: 1:2 non punishing Jund - I lose to Tireless Tracker, after my decision to kill death rite +develop board instead of going for tracker. I could have won that as I died with 6 cards on hand. Second game is fast swarm. Third is ultra grind, but lost to Liliana, the Last Hope and ooze + tracker.

R3: 2:1 nemesis bug - I won first to Goblin beats. Boarded in pyrokinesis against mana dorks, which was not correct. I wish I had more tarfires. Game two quick, T2 nemesis, t3 goyf backed up by removals. G3 was owned by krenko + haste lords, where I raced double TNN + jitte.

R4: 1:1 Miracles - G1 was easy win. Ringleader into ringleader into siege gang. Here I messes up and boarded in Magus of the moon. My opponent opens with Counterbalance for which I had Cavern, but couldn't deploy Magus. Game was very long and was not able to finish my opponent. Izzet staticaster bought him several turns while I tried to copy some goblins with Kiki + Karakas backup. I died to Entreat turn before I could have kill him. I misplayed several time by being cute and not finding Ringleader with matron or trying to copy creatures instead of beating down with Kiki. Definitely could have win second game.

All in all, deck felt good. Control matchups are ok, combo could be beatable with proper sideboard and I hope I have a game against death and Taxes. I miss singleton Earwing Squad for decks relying on single card to kill (Miracles for example). Also I found lack of Piledrivers very unfortunate in some situations, when I could tutor up Piledriver and attack for the win.
I want to try heavy Krenko build next time.

Congrats, can you give link to the list you memtioned?

Decklist was posted 2 pages ago - http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post993255

My list was:

4x Cavern of Souls
4x Wasteland
3x Rishdan Port
1x Karakas
1x Plateau
2x Scalding Tarn
8x Mountain

4x Goblin Lackey
3x Mogg War-Marshall
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Warcheif
2x Goblin Chieftain
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
3x GEmplam Incinerator
1x TukTuk Scrapper
4x Goblin Ringleader
1x Krenko
1x Siege-gang Commander
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2x Stingscourger

4x Aether VIal
2x Tarfire

Tourney Report! And this time more to write home about than an 0-2 drop!

The List

4 Chalice of the Void

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader

3 Piledriver
2 Warchief
3 Chieftain
2 Krenko

2 Sparksmith
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Tuktuk
1 Gempalm
2 Stingscourger

11 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern
2 Port
1 Karakas

SB
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdiggers cage
1 Blood Moon
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Goblin Settler
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Pithing Needle
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Sharshooter
1 Tuktuk

R1 Eldrazi Taxes
My most hated Nemesis!
G1 I bring the beats and get him down to two life, then he gets a Batterskull with a Sword on it and makes the comeback. I blanked a Ringleader trigger that should have gotten the last 2 points of damage in. Very close game.
G2 I get a Krenko active, but not until my opponent has a Displacer and Flickerwisp to get all the value. He gets me for exactsises the turn before I can get him.
0-1

R2 BU Landstill
G1 I land an early Chalice @ 1 that I ride to victory.
G2 a Sparksmith answers anything he plays while I bring the beats for the W.
1-1

R3 Miracles
G1 I mull to 5 but those 5 s Cavern, Lackey, Chalice, Chalice, Mountain. The first Chalice gets countered. The second Chalice sticks. Then i draw some lands and a Ringleader and just close it our while my opponent can't do much of anything.
G2 My opponent mulls to 4 and I just do my thing and win.
2-1

R4 Storm
G1 I know my opponent is on Storm and i open on a hand of Lackey, Chalice, Chalice. I'm on the play so I lead with Chalice @ 0 and Lackey. T2 I play Chalice @ 1 and I just take it from there with lackey triggers bringing the beats. First G1 I've won against Storm in a long while.
G2 I have a hand with Lackeys, Warchief, Piledriver and Mindbreak Trap. I bring the beats and Trap the Tutor when my opponent has to go off.
3-1

Top 4 - BUGr Landstill
G1 was the grindiest grindy game I've played in forever. My opponent was playing Fatal Push, Abrupt Decays, Kolaghan Command and Snapcaster Mages. He got a Jace active and was brainstorming every turn but i was playing Matron and Ringleader every turn too so we were at card parity. Pyrokinesis was huge because it let me pop a Standstill on my opponent's end step when he was at 8 cards. We both went through about 40 cards before this game ended with a Piledriver swinging through some blue blockers.
G2 I over-valued Chalice and scooped when I started getting jace-sealed.
G3 I side out the Chalices (he had too varied a curve for them to be too useful). My opponent was a little mana screwed and I was able to bring the beats to close this one out.
4-1

Finals - Eldrazi Taxes rematch
G1 Sparksmith kills a SFM and Piledriver brings the beats for a win. First game loss my opponent had all day.
G2 My land-light hand gets wrecked by a Containment Priest.
G3 I keep a rough hand on a mull to 6 with Cavern as my only land, a Lackey and a couple Sparksmiths. I scrye and keep a Pyrokinesis on top. i never see another land and Cavern eats a Wasteland real quick. Lackey eats a Swords too, of course.
4-2

I came in 2nd place and got $70 store credit for my troubles. Pretty good showing, especially after my rough streak (2-10 over my last 5 tourneys).

Chalice was a fucking rockstar all day. It was amazing against Storm and Miracles and it played a huge roll in getting me to the finals. I would highly, highly recommend running the playset. It was a better 2-drop than any other Goblin we have access to.

Sparksmith did a lot of lifting too. Now, it isn't the greatest Goblin ever, but I like that it is about the same speed as Gempalm and it makes Piledriver bigger. I'm digging it.

Ringleaders weren't the best today. I'm only running 28 Gobbos so that's going to start factoring in to fewer reveals. It would be great to find a way to up the Goblin count to over 30, but with 4 Chalice, 4 Vial, 2 Pyrokinesis and 22 Lands that ain't gonna happen. I would love to have a goblin card that was more synergistic with Chalice than Tarfire that I could run in place of Pyrokinesis. Alas, that's a pretty tall order. Warren Weirding seems like the best 2-drop for when you just need to kill your opponent's creature early but I do not like opening up the mana base to more Wasteland fuckery. I already seem to get fucked over by DnT's Wastelands every time I play against them.

Overall the deck was super solid today. The deck can grind like a motherfucker and Chalice gives it so much game against faster decks. It would just be a little bit better if our removal options were a little stronger with goblin bodies.

I was just putzing around with this hypergeometric calculator and found something cool.
http://stattrek.com/online-calculato...geometric.aspx

If you want to draw exactly 4 land drops by turn 4 the ideal number of lands to run on the play is 24 in a 60 card deck. Running 24 lands on the play maximizes your chance of having 4 of your 10 cards be lands, and the other 6 being Goblins/Vials/Pyros. Any more than 24 lands and your odds of only drawing 4 starts decreasing because it becomes more likely that you will draw a 5th land in those 10 cards, leaving you with fewer action cards in hand.
On the draw you're now looking to draw 4 lands out of 11 cards, giving you 7 non-lands in hand. The ideal number there is 22.
Those numbers are the same for a 61 card deck as well.

I think this has been brought up before but seems worth re-iterating and keeping in mind when sideboarding. Siding out lands down to 22 on the draw seems like a reasonable approach, plus it helps keep your goblin count up for Ringleaders. I also don't think it's terrible to split the difference and just run 23 lands. And really, the probability changes so little between 22 and 24 lands (+/- 3 lands is only a 2% change in probability of hitting 4 lands).

Another interesting thing to consider is how utility lands like Waste, Port and Karakas fit in here. Running a higher land count seems better if you're getting value from those land drops aside from straight up mana production.

I'm enjoying playing around with this calculator. Definitely worth considering looking at it for manabase fixing. Seems good for deciphering the best number of lands for your deck, also the correct number of Red sources, fetches, 1-drops, whatever. Good stuff.

First of all, congrats! It's nice to see your hard work pay off. My main concern is not enough removal, like you already said. Any thoughts about how to tackle this?

Conclusion 1) Chalice = good
Conclusion 2) Chalice = Too many non-goblin cards = Ringleader not very good

If you are going to play Chalice in your red deck then why not just play Dragon Stompy / Moggcatcher? (Or another Chalice deck e.g. Eldrazi). What's the reason to play Chalice + Matron?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

Conclusion 1) Chalice = good
Conclusion 2) Chalice = Too many non-goblin cards = Ringleader not very good

If you are going to play Chalice in your red deck then why not just play Dragon Stompy / Moggcatcher? (Or another Chalice deck e.g. Eldrazi). What's the reason to play Chalice + Matron?

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Hi dear green-skinned cousins,

I'm very skeptical with the conclusion that Chalice may have a place main deck in Goblins. In jrw1985 last report, except for Storm where it shined, I don't really see where playing Chalice was an advantage in comparison of what our deck usually is. Storm can be beaten with Thalia and mana denial only. As for Landstill, is that a bad match-ups for us? What are usually your results against it with a non-chalice list?

On the paper, it looked cool, but not as cool as Dragon Stompy. So, to make my own conclusions, I tested jrw1985 list on MTGO in a 5-matches league and the result was...awfully bad.

For the record, I would like to mention that before the test, I went 5-0, beating Storm, 2x Eldrazis, Death & Taxes and Tezzeret with my usual list, see below:


//Mana base
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Plateau
1 Taiga
1 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
3 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills

//Core
4 Æther Vial
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief

//Others / Flex-slots
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Skirk Prospector
2 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg War Marshal

//Removals
4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Tarfire
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tin Street Hooligan

//Sideboard
SB: 3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Pyrokinesis
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Tin Street Hooligan
SB: 2 Pyroblast

This list was very explosive, but I didn't liked the 2nd Krenko. In the current meta with a heavy Death/Eldrazi & Taxes, a 2nd Tin Street or Mogg War Marshall would have been safer.

Anyway, after this pretty nice league matches, I gave jrw1985 a try and the result didn't convince me at all. I went 0-5, beaten by Miracle, Grixis Delver, Shardless, Bant and Charbelcher!!

The most irritating match was against Miracle. Here is a short report:

Miracle 0-2!!!
Having 3 goblins less for Chalice and 11 mountains made Ringleader blanks several times, which, on the long run, killed me. There was not enough goblins in play to get rid of Mentor with Gempalm, and too many lands, not enough goblins in general.

Grixis 1-2
Toss won, on play, my hand is Lackey, Vial, Ringleader/Warchief, 2 fetches and...a Chalice. I start with the classic T1+lackey go, while Warchief is warming up. My opponent remove my lackey with a bolt. I draw a Gempalm and now is the dilemma. Chalice or Vial? I chose Vial to play around Daze which got Forced, hic! He dropped a Death Rite Shaman and a Delver. I still have Chalice in hand and have no goblins in play, no vial at T3. Bad start! Then I started to draw lands after lands. Damn, where are the goblins?

Shardless 0-2
Pretty much same scenario as above

Bant 0-2
Destroyed by True Name Nemesis with Jitte, Tuktuk arrived too late. I wish I had a Tin Street here :-(

Charbelcher 0-2
T1 lol
T2 No Chalice after mull at 4. Lackey and Tuktuk in hand with 2 fetches. T1 Lackey. He tinkers some and dropped Charbelcher waiting to go off next turn. I dropped my 2nd land and look at Tuktuk...No comment! I wish it was a Tin Street too. Not very relevant, though, cuz this match-up is almost unwinnable.

Conclusion: I am surely not the best goblin player out there, but I feel Chalice & Tuktuk slowed me a lot. It changed my style of play and made me take odd decisions, while building a board and taking gobos with Ringleader would have helped. Against Grixis and Cabal Therapy or Shardless and Hymn to Tourach, we have to play grindy and give our Ringleaders the best they can do. With so many lands and non-gobos, it was very disappointing. Chalice is "the rock star" almost only against Storm, Burn, BR Reanimator or Belcher. But Thalia does a wider job. Both are decayable. I think we can handle targets like Deathrite, Delver with our 11-13 removals Sharpshooter/Stingscourger/Tarfire/Gempalm/Pyrokinesis without Chalice. Is it really that much relevant that Miracles have access to their Brainstorm? We normally beat them with chaining Matron to Ringleader. Is it really relevant to counter Cabal Therapy with Chalice? Yes, sure, but I think preferable to have some blockers and board presence against Gurmag, Tarmo or Batterskull.

One other disadvantage was the lack of Tarfires. Lackey almost never connected. Gempalm can't kill DRS or a flipped Delver T2. Skirk Prospector can only enter with lackey, vial or cavern against Death & Taxes. Our T2/T3 becomes Vial Daze-proof or Chalice?

What do you prefer? A board with some MWM tokens or Lackey and mana-denial a Shardless T3 to avoid a Liliana or Shardless Agent or an empty board with Chalice?

Personally, I made my choice and it goes to synergy and explosiveness on the play, and versatility control on the draw.

What about Pyroblast? It counters Stifle, Gitaxian Probe/Ponder/Brainstorm and...True Name Nemesis. It kills Delver, Baleful Stix, Shardless, Leovold. It destroys Omniscience and counters Show & Tell. It's a counter/removal spell. I think it's a nice 2-off in the side and we should try it more. Very sweet :-)

On Pyroblast I think the following is more accurate:

* It shouldn't counter Gitaxian Probe
* it can counter Brainstorm and Ponder in some matchups in some situations
* it counters stifle when you can play around that by leaving R open (and when you play against a deck that is actually playing Stifle)
* it can target Omniscience but will almost never successfully destroy it. It's more likely to counter Show and Tell/Cunning Wish/Impulse

I think being a hard removal for Delver is the best part about it, but that's also true for Tarfire.
That being said, I find it a good idea to put the card back on the map because it's in a good spot right now.

@ Chalice MD: tried that myself on the weekend and I have similar concerns as Fourbirr.

Looking at what you guys have been discussing regarding MD Chalice, I feel like a Winstigator build might be the best place to try that line of thinking. Playing 1-2 Pendelhaven lets you get around the problem of not having Tarfire, which Fourbirr mentioned as a serious problem. Instigator doesn't fit into the curve, as you might be put into the awkward circumstance of deciding whether to cast it or chalice first, but Vial ameliorates this problem a good deal. I also think that if you're running Chalice MD, 4 is unnecessary; 3 seems ideal (I like GoboLord's build of it the most). Its top end also makes up for the weakened ringleaders, as you don't have to draw as many cards as just killing them with huge swarms of green dudes.

@Fourbirr, I'm a little confused with your description of your final match (Belcher). What about Tuktuk was bad there? You can just put it in off the Lackey and blow up the belcher, correct? I might just be dense and not grasping your joke though.

As for myself, I'm gonna start playing with Kiki and Siege-Gang along with 3 piledrivers soon, and I'll report any results I have them. Does anyone know of any especially sweet Goblins to Kiki out? I know Matron or Ringleader is some gross value, and the Prospector + Lightning Crafter combo is neat. Any others? Also, does playing Kiki necessitate going up to 24 lands?

For those of you who have been testing Sparksmith; what is the value of it over Gempalm? Obviously it requires less mana investment, but it can possibly be countered, and it quite slow. However, I can buy that it is good as long as the damage to yourself isn't too significant. I'd imagine most of the time you take 2-3, but it does seem very awkward with something like Krenko, where you can't use your removal spell because you'll kill yourself with it. Sometimes we need to kill very large creatures, and doming yourself for 7 to kill a big goyf, or 5 for a reality smasher, does not seem like a good trade. I'm skeptical, but I'd like to hear some more discussions on it.

EDIT: Dunno why I forgot to mention this, as it is the main reason I was gonna post in the first place; I'm going to BOM Paris! Just got my flight and registration sorted out. Those of you who are going PM me and we can work out a time to meet up at the venue?

From the opening post:

Quote:

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BUG Delver*– Slightly Unfavorable to Even
How the matchups works:
[...]Also their deck is light on removal spells so, unless you need to throw your creatures into a*Tarmogoyf*or*Liliana, every creature that hits the board, stays on the board.
[...]This match's difficulty relates almost directly to the number of Hymn to Tourach's they are running.

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I was reading this again, after a devastating experience with this MU on the weekend.
The first part, about being light on removal spells, needs an update now that they have adopted Fatal Push. No criticism, just an observation. Also I couldn’t agree more with the part about Hymns. From my Research it seems that Hymn is competiting with Stifle/Spell Pierce for those slots.
Lastly, what do you think they are boarding out after G1? Likely candidates are Force of Will, Daze and Hymn to Tourarch. When testing on the weekend I was almost certain Hymn would have to stay in the deck , at least some copies (they have whole lot to bring in from SB)., but there was a discussion about shaving Hymns and keeping Daze (for Blood Moon and Delver protection).

@jrw1985
Grats on the place. Though I do agree with kombatkiwi, your deck worked, no doubt, but you very quickly identified an identity crisis in the list. If you wish to try it, I think I'd probably be happier with Nameless Inversion than the edict.

@1GoblinLackey
Kiki-Jiki and Goblin Settler is the most jarring bonus, but I tend to only run them with Winstigator, as that is a build of the deck that truly values the tempo gained. Also try to keep the "neat" packages to a 1 or none deal, as the more versatility you add the lower consistency you get.

Sparksmith is a fine card. It's always on the edge of being included in my list. I ran it a long time ago when Delver wasn't a card, and it was much better in a world where you couldn't get 12'd before you answered the flying Nacatl. That said, it's true power is in forcing the opponent to play poorly. Obviously the level 1 line of just having "free" removal is powerful, but him sticking around makes opponents sequence their worst creatures first. That's valuable information AND indirect board advantage AND board advantage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 1GoblinLackey

[...]
@Fourbirr, I'm a little confused with your description of your final match (Belcher). What about Tuktuk was bad there? You can just put it in off the Lackey and blow up the belcher, correct? I might just be dense and not grasping your joke though.

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Oops, forgot to mention that he dropped a Xantid Swarm and could block. No tarfire to help Lackey connect. With two fetches, I could have cast Tin Street to shatter Belcher. Anyway, not a big deal, cuz it's not a MU we are suppose to win.

Tin Street over Tuktuk is very situational. Tin Street can be better to answer a fast Jitte, but is annoying if Warchief is in play. It depends. Like yesterday, I was at my local store league and played against Death & Taxes. I could flood the board with Lackey, Warchief and Siege-Gang. Opponent has Jitte + SoFI in play and a Flickerwisp already there form the last turn. Killing it with Siege-Gang ability made room for Lackey, brought Tuktuk, said SoFI goodbye. I kept a second Tuktuk as a double trigger backup for Jitte and Batterskull if he would dropped it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 1GoblinLackey

[...]
EDIT: Dunno why I forgot to mention this, as it is the main reason I was gonna post in the first place; I'm going to BOM Paris! Just got my flight and registration sorted out. Those of you who are going PM me and we can work out a time to meet up at the venue?

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So cool! GoboLord, ScatManX are going too. It will be 4 of us. Do some people from London coming, too?

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

On Pyroblast I think the following is more accurate:

* It shouldn't counter Gitaxian Probe

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Sure, but I mention that, because it helped me to won a game against Grixis. Countering Probe, he had no information for a Cabal Therapy and should have played it blind. Which is sad, when there are no young pyromancer tokens to sacrifice for the flashback. Then mana denialing him + destroying his lands, lackey + warchief + piledriver -> game over. I think countering Probe against Storm is also sweet. They know we sometimes side Mindbreak Trap in. They won't take the risk to go off if they didn't see our hand. But that's not the best way to use Pyroblast, I admit :smile:

Advantages of Containment Priest vs Ethersworn Canonist? Can't fit both in SB, gonna have to pick one or the other. Canonist pretty much stops combo dead in its tracks, Thalia hurts it even more. Priest has Flash and can mess up decks trying to cheat creatures into play that aren't cast.

Right now, my SB was looking like this:

Thalia x2
Blood Moon x2
Relic of Progenitus x2
Pithing Needle x2
Pyrokinesis x2
Ethersworn Canonist x2
Surgical Extraction x1
Tuktuk x1
Stingscourger x1


The extra Tuktuk and Stingscourger are there in case, along with 1 of each MB, Pyro is obvious, Pithing to shut off any problematic cards, Blood Moon to really throw off an opposing manabase if needed, Relic to kill graveyards, Thalia, Canonist and Extraction to hurt combo. I'd love some feedback, or suggestions of other cards (again, like the advantages of taking Containment Priest).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chatto

First of all, congrats! It's nice to see your hard work pay off. My main concern is not enough removal, like you already said. Any thoughts about how to tackle this?

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Hey, thanks!
Removal is difficult. Keeping it limited to Goblin shaped interaction is expensive and slow, but that slowness is also what makes goblins special because you can cast your removal spells as chump blockers and attack with them to pump Piledrivers/Chieftains. In that regard you don't even care that you don't have the quickest removal because you can exchange your removal for board presence. I think keeping the goblin count as high as possible is deal for the deck. And we'll have to rely on Lackey trades and mana denial to keep early threats off the table. I am disappointed that there just isn't a 2-drop Tarfire alternative. That would pair extremely well with Chalice. Thing is though, we can't just jam some Incinerates because we need to keep the Goblin count up!

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

Conclusion 1) Chalice = good
Conclusion 2) Chalice = Too many non-goblin cards = Ringleader not very good

If you are going to play Chalice in your red deck then why not just play Dragon Stompy / Moggcatcher? (Or another Chalice deck e.g. Eldrazi). What's the reason to play Chalice + Matron?

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I'm not interested in playing Dragon Stompy or Big Red because those decks have games where they draw nothing but their lock pieces, or nothing but mana, or nothing but threats, and it seems too easy for them to die to their own variance. I just don't have fun playing those all-in strategies.

Those decks also run overkill on Chalice and Trinisphere and need to resolve an early one to stop their opponent from controlling the game. We don't need that, because we can just play Lackey or Vial T1 and Chalice comes down T2 as a card that forces the grind and protects our horde from spot removal. It serves a very different purpose in Goblins.

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Originally Posted by Fourbirr

I'm very skeptical with the conclusion that Chalice may have a place main deck in Goblins. In jrw1985 last report, except for Storm where it shined, I don't really see where playing Chalice was an advantage in comparison of what our deck usually is. Storm can be beaten with Thalia and mana denial only. As for Landstill, is that a bad match-ups for us? What are usually your results against it with a non-chalice list?

On the paper, it looked cool, but not as cool as Dragon Stompy. So, to make my own conclusions, I tested jrw1985 list on MTGO in a 5-matches league and the result was...awfully bad.

Anyway, after this pretty nice league matches, I gave jrw1985 a try and the result didn't convince me at all. I went 0-5, beaten by Miracle, Grixis Delver, Shardless, Bant and Charbelcher!!

The most irritating match was against Miracle. Here is a short report:

Miracle 0-2!!!
Having 3 goblins less for Chalice and 11 mountains made Ringleader blanks several times, which, on the long run, killed me. There was not enough goblins in play to get rid of Mentor with Gempalm, and too many lands, not enough goblins in general.

Grixis 1-2
Toss won, on play, my hand is Lackey, Vial, Ringleader/Warchief, 2 fetches and...a Chalice. I start with the classic T1+lackey go, while Warchief is warming up. My opponent remove my lackey with a bolt. I draw a Gempalm and now is the dilemma. Chalice or Vial? I chose Vial to play around Daze which got Forced, hic! He dropped a Death Rite Shaman and a Delver. I still have Chalice in hand and have no goblins in play, no vial at T3. Bad start! Then I started to draw lands after lands. Damn, where are the goblins?

Conclusion: I am surely not the best goblin player out there, but I feel Chalice & Tuktuk slowed me a lot. It changed my style of play and made me take odd decisions, while building a board and taking gobos with Ringleader would have helped. Against Grixis and Cabal Therapy or Shardless and Hymn to Tourach, we have to play grindy and give our Ringleaders the best they can do. With so many lands and non-gobos, it was very disappointing. Chalice is "the rock star" almost only against Storm, Burn, BR Reanimator or Belcher. But Thalia does a wider job. Both are decayable. I think we can handle targets like Deathrite, Delver with our 11-13 removals Sharpshooter/Stingscourger/Tarfire/Gempalm/Pyrokinesis without Chalice. Is it really that much relevant that Miracles have access to their Brainstorm? We normally beat them with chaining Matron to Ringleader. Is it really relevant to counter Cabal Therapy with Chalice? Yes, sure, but I think preferable to have some blockers and board presence against Gurmag, Tarmo or Batterskull.

One other disadvantage was the lack of Tarfires. Lackey almost never connected. Gempalm can't kill DRS or a flipped Delver T2. Skirk Prospector can only enter with lackey, vial or cavern against Death & Taxes. Our T2/T3 becomes Vial Daze-proof or Chalice?

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On your 0-5 showing, that's rough man. Some observations though...
Update: Thanks for trying the list in your tournament. It's super cool that you wanted to try it and did, and I appreciate your feedback. I'm still working on refining it, and i hope to have a more streamlined version for my next outing.
R1 Miracles, Chalice is an awesome card that shuts down their ability to get value from Top, Swords and cantrips. It makes their Miracles worse because they need to play them naturally on their draw step or lose the filter power of Top. It stops double-top recursion for the Mentor win. I always side Chalice in against Miracles.
R2 against Grixis you made a big mistake by leading with Lackey over Vial. You didn't have removal to force Lackey through, and you had a good curve in your hand for Vial. Plus, Vial T1, Chalice T2 would have resolves a protected Lackey T2 as well.
On Lackey: You said Lackey almost never connected. Get used to that. Lackey seldom connects in fair matchups because the format has so much removal and better creatures. Lackey is more of a positioning threat than an actual cheater. Also, Gempalm never is able to kill T2 x/2 unless you're also trading with Lackey.

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Originally Posted by 1GoblinLackey

Looking at what you guys have been discussing regarding MD Chalice, I feel like a Winstigator build might be the best place to try that line of thinking. Playing 1-2 Pendelhaven lets you get around the problem of not having Tarfire, which Fourbirr mentioned as a serious problem. Instigator doesn't fit into the curve, as you might be put into the awkward circumstance of deciding whether to cast it or chalice first, but Vial ameliorates this problem a good deal. I also think that if you're running Chalice MD, 4 is unnecessary; 3 seems ideal (I like GoboLord's build of it the most). Its top end also makes up for the weakened ringleaders, as you don't have to draw as many cards as just killing them with huge swarms of green dudes.

For those of you who have been testing Sparksmith; what is the value of it over Gempalm? Obviously it requires less mana investment, but it can possibly be countered, and it quite slow. However, I can buy that it is good as long as the damage to yourself isn't too significant. I'd imagine most of the time you take 2-3, but it does seem very awkward with something like Krenko, where you can't use your removal spell because you'll kill yourself with it. Sometimes we need to kill very large creatures, and doming yourself for 7 to kill a big goyf, or 5 for a reality smasher, does not seem like a good trade. I'm skeptical, but I'd like to hear some more discussions on it.

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A couple Winstigators and Pendelhaven seems decent, especially as a cheeky way to replace Tarfire. Here's how I'm thinking of incorporating them into my next build. Prepare for some heresy...

4 Chalice
3 Vial

4 Lackey
1 Winstigator

4 Matron
4 Ringleader

3 Piledriver
3 Chieftain
2 Warchief
2 Krenko

2 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk
2 Sparksmith
1 Gempalm
2 Sharpshooter
1 Settler

1 Pendelhaven
1 Chrome Mox
4 Cavern
3 Wasteland
2 Port
5 Mountain
5 Fetchlands

That's 21 lands. 11 R sources. 32 Goblins. 13 interactive spells. I want to keep trying the full playset of Chalice before cutting any maindeck. But that also makes it difficult to keep the Goblin count up, so I'm cutting 1 Vial for a Winstigator. Sacrilege, I know, but that keeps the goblin count up and keeps the same number of cheaters. I'm also running a Chrome mox because it seems like an easy inclusion in such a 2-drop heavy list. Having fetches is important because fetching once before a Ringleader gets the deck to the 75% threshold of probability for drawing 2+ gobbos. I've been enjoying playing with the hypergeometric calculator I posted earlier. The removal suite runs 0 Tarfire because of Chalice and only runs one Gempalm as a silver bullet. I don't want a hand full of Gempalms when I don't have a board presence, I'd rather build that board with a goblin that could generate tons of value like Sharpshooter or Sparksmith.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard

@jrw1985
Grats on the place. Though I do agree with kombatkiwi, your deck worked, no doubt, but you very quickly identified an identity crisis in the list. If you wish to try it, I think I'd probably be happier with Nameless Inversion than the edict.

Sparksmith is a fine card. It's always on the edge of being included in my list. I ran it a long time ago when Delver wasn't a card, and it was much better in a world where you couldn't get 12'd before you answered the flying Nacatl. That said, it's true power is in forcing the opponent to play poorly. Obviously the level 1 line of just having "free" removal is powerful, but him sticking around makes opponents sequence their worst creatures first. That's valuable information AND indirect board advantage AND board advantage.

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Good point about Sparksmith. Running it out forces opponents to play around it. Chalice makes that a tall order.

Per Nameless Inversion, I'm not interested in running a splash and opening myself to more Wasteland screw than necessary. I'd also rather run a card that could also be a body, which is why you'll see folks piloting Weirding.