[DTB] UWx Miracle Control

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Originally Posted by Kyuuri117

Also going to be adding a second ceremonious rejection to the board. Feel like it's needed in my meta. The eldrazi player is a constant and the pox player is 90% of the time on MUD. I should probably be playing a third one tbh...

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The main problem with ceremonious rejection is that it doesn't work very well against Chalice, which is the main way eldrazi & mud beats us. You rarely die with a disenchant in hand to a attacking creature in my experience, and if so they likely had a cavern of souls anyways. There is also the problem of Rejection not being a card you can board in against literally anything else. While cards like CJ or Disenchant you can board in against all kinds of decks, like any Stoneforge Mystic deck for example. If you are really afraid of eldrazi or mud and don't want to just play more than 4-5 disenchant effects (really diminishing returns) you have two options I think, you can either play cards like null rod against mud, or needle/spyglass against eldrazi (name eye of ugin) or mud (name all kinds of stuff), or you can play land hate, Back to Basics, Blood Moon, From the Ashes, etc are all fairly common options others play. I like both of these options more than rejection, they are simply way higher power level, and the only downside is that they cost slightly more mana.

Other than that I also don't like only 8 cantrips 20 lands. Either play more cantrips (like everyone else is doing right now), or play more lands (Like Joe or Reid or a few others did pre ban).

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Originally Posted by It Is Unfair

The main problem with ceremonious rejection is that it doesn't work very well against Chalice, which is the main way eldrazi & mud beats us. You rarely die with a disenchant in hand to a attacking creature in my experience, and if so they likely had a cavern of souls anyways. There is also the problem of Rejection not being a card you can board in against literally anything else. While cards like CJ or Disenchant you can board in against all kinds of decks, like any Stoneforge Mystic deck for example. If you are really afraid of eldrazi or mud and don't want to just play more than 4-5 disenchant effects (really diminishing returns) you have two options I think, you can either play cards like null rod against mud, or needle/spyglass against eldrazi (name eye of ugin) or mud (name all kinds of stuff), or you can play land hate, Back to Basics, Blood Moon, From the Ashes, etc are all fairly common options others play. I like both of these options more than rejection, they are simply way higher power level, and the only downside is that they cost slightly more mana.

Other than that I also don't like only 8 cantrips 20 lands. Either play more cantrips (like everyone else is doing right now), or play more lands (Like Joe or Reid or a few others did pre ban).

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Yeah cerimonious should be a zero off in the SB, it's way too narrow. Not to me mention the most common targets are either played turn 1 (vial, chalice), is cheated in (equipment) or is played with cavern (eldrazi). If it were a colorless blast then sure but you should rather play answers (CJ, disenchant) and actual counterspell. Spell Pierce is a good card versus staxlike decks.

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Originally Posted by Whitefaces

:eyebrow: Everyone calls it Elves...

Jaces pulls you ahead, you need to do that at some point.

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I noticed Whitefaces in Legacy challenge is now running
3 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
1 REB

Since he's not the only one (Das actually went for the full 4-4), I am now wondering is this a MTGO inbreed meta thing, or is this applicable to the paper Legacy events?

One card I feel the community has overlooked is Spell Snare. In this meta, this card is useful pretty much all the time. Often a player gains edges with Snapcaster, in which SS can cut off. Other Notable targets are Hymn/Chalice on 1/YP/Infernal Tutor/Sylvan Library/Collective Brutality/Dark Confidant. Yes, I'm aware that the power of SS is drastically reduced if your opponent Probes you first, and it can still be blasted on stack; however, I'm now experimenting with
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
3 Spell Snare

Don't have conclusive results yet, feel free to give it a try.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

I noticed Whitefaces in Legacy challenge is now running
3 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
1 REB

Since he's not the only one (Das actually went for the full 4-4), I am now wondering is this a MTGO inbreed meta thing, or is this applicable to the paper Legacy events?

One card I feel the community has overlooked is Spell Snare. In this meta, this card is useful pretty much all the time. Often a player gains edges with Snapcaster, in which SS can cut off. Other Notable targets are Hymn/Chalice on 1/YP/Infernal Tutor/Sylvan Library/Collective Brutality/Dark Confidant. Yes, I'm aware that the power of SS is drastically reduced if your opponent Probes you first, and it can still be blasted on stack; however, I'm now experimenting with
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
3 Spell Snare

Don't have conclusive results yet, feel free to give it a try.

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Yeah, it's a bit of an mtgo thing, there's loads of mirrors at the moment especially. Online I am playing 3 CB maindeck and 4 Blasts sb usually, but I'm playing a bigger event this weekend where I'm going to 2 CB for a 3rd Predict in the main and 3 blasts in the side as I expect a bit less blue, bit more unknown. Though the numbers either way are solid I think, it depends if you know the meta you're playing in. I know that here in the UK there's a lot of DnT at least, and other random non-blue decks. I've been on 3 Flusters for quite a while though, I'd play that online and irl.

Spell Snare is quite high variance imo, when it's good its insane, and there's a lot of good targets in the format atm that we care about, the mirror especially and it's great vs pile. It's pretty poor vs Grixis Delver, though, which is rough. It also has diminishing returns, so I'd play two at the very max personally.

Hello, I' m a new miracle player. I play 2 volcanic island and 3 pyroblast in side; versus the new 4C leovold with 2-3 wasteland is safe to play with only two volcanic or I have to increase the number of red sources? Thx

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Originally Posted by Eldrazi Grandfather

Hello, I' m a new miracle player. I play 2 volcanic island and 3 pyroblast in side; versus the new 4C leovold with 2-3 wasteland is safe to play with only two volcanic or I have to increase the number of red sources? Thx

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If your only red cards are 3 blasts I think 2 volcanic is enough and preferred. You might run into a game where you get wasted of red but still have 1 blast left in the deck and lose because of it, but it will probably less often than the other alternative (losing game 1 against a wasteland deck because you drew multiple volcanics). If you play any more red spells that you want to board in against wasteland decks (pyroclasm for example, or a 4th blast) then I would would play the 3rd volcanic (or a sideboard basic mountain).

I see that many list don't run containment priest in sodeboard; is the game vs show n tell winnable without her?

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Originally Posted by JackaBo

Yeah cerimonious should be a zero off in the SB, it's way too narrow. Not to me mention the most common targets are either played turn 1 (vial, chalice), is cheated in (equipment) or is played with cavern (eldrazi). If it were a colorless blast then sure but you should rather play answers (CJ, disenchant) and actual counterspell. Spell Pierce is a good card versus staxlike decks.

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If I were bringing the deck to a large event I would swap up my sideboard a bit, but as I know for a fact that two of the 8-12 decks in my local tournament are going to be Eldrazi and MUD on a consistent basis, I don't see why it's bad. Sure, if they get an early chalice on one down it's an issue... but ceremonious rejection or not, that's going to be an issue. I do have the two disenchants in the board already and bring those in. Are you suggesting I bump that up to three or four instead? I understand that ceremonious rejection isn't useful against other decks and that cavern of souls exists, but getting turn 2-3 TKS'd, or thorns into trinisphere'd, just puts you so far behind that I feel like they're worth the slot.

About running more cantrips, I probably should. I have found that the additional three drops have been very useful with counterbalance in the list though, and abrupt decay is at an all time low these days so not too worried about it hitting search for azcanta.

On another note, is it just universally agreed upon that mentor is the best finisher right now? Is Entreat the Angels generally outclassed at this point? Was interested in messing around with it.

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Originally Posted by Kyuuri117

If I were bringing the deck to a large event I would swap up my sideboard a bit, but as I know for a fact that two of the 8-12 decks in my local tournament are going to be Eldrazi and MUD on a consistent basis, I don't see why it's bad. Sure, if they get an early chalice on one down it's an issue... but ceremonious rejection or not, that's going to be an issue. I do have the two disenchants in the board already and bring those in. Are you suggesting I bump that up to three or four instead? I understand that ceremonious rejection isn't useful against other decks and that cavern of souls exists, but getting turn 2-3 TKS'd, or thorns into trinisphere'd, just puts you so far behind that I feel like they're worth the slot.

About running more cantrips, I probably should. I have found that the additional three drops have been very useful with counterbalance in the list though, and abrupt decay is at an all time low these days so not too worried about it hitting search for azcanta.

On another note, is it just universally agreed upon that mentor is the best finisher right now? Is Entreat the Angels generally outclassed at this point? Was interested in messing around with it.

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If your meta is heavily skewed with colourless decks then by all means run Rejections, just understand that's it's not a good choice for the deck for anyone else so that's the angle they're coming from when condemning it.

I wrote up something small recently on win cons - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...8TsiySJOQ/edit

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Originally Posted by Kyuuri117

About running more cantrips, I probably should. I have found that the additional three drops have been very useful with counterbalance in the list though, and abrupt decay is at an all time low these days so not too worried about it hitting search for azcanta.

On another note, is it just universally agreed upon that mentor is the best finisher right now? Is Entreat the Angels generally outclassed at this point? Was interested in messing around with it.

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Decay is definitely lower, but there's no quantifying data to support all-time low. It's not just Decay destroying Search, many Grixis decks have multiple Red Blast effects in the SB and that's fine. I rather them hitting Search using their Blast than hitting Jace.

The Entreat vs. Mentor topic has been discussed in the primers above already. It's still very common for your opponents to SB-out creature removals like Push when they face Miracles, they often Brainstorm away their Push/Edict game one because they don't even care about the 2/1 Snapcaster body. That's why our side-boarding tech of SB-in Mentor is rather punishing.

Played in a 160 odd player event yesterday, made t4 which we split. A friend also made t4 on a list 2 cards different to this (+1 cs, -1 cb md, +1 clique, -1 fluster sb), and another friend, WhiteFaces, came 9th on the same list (+/- 1 card or so) :(.

Thought it'd be good to share the list, though I have limited recollection of how the games all went so I can't really do a write up but am happy to answer any questions if there are any.

Ant 2-0
Pile 2-1
Pile 2-0
Dnt 2-0
Miracles 2-0
Grixis delver 2-0
Sneak and show 2-0
Id
Pile 2-0
Split t4

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 portent
2 search for azcanta
3 counterbalance
1 counterspell
4 swords to plowshares
4 terminus
3 jace, the mind sculptor
1 entreat the angels
4 force of will
3 predict
3 snapcaster mage
1 council's judgement

4 flooded strand
4 scalding tarn
1 arid Mesa
3 tundra
2 volcanic island
4 island
2 plains

SB
3 flusterstorm
3 pyroblast
3 surgical extraction
2 monastery mentor
1 snapcaster mage
1 council's judgement
2 disenchant

Yup, 9th place was a bit frustrating, would have been so nice to have us three together. Played the same list as above but +1 Counterspell -1 Counterbalance.

My matchups were

2-1 Grixis Delver
1-1 Pile
2-1 Grixis Delver
2-1 Grixis Delver
2-1 Grixis Delver
0-2 Sneak and Show
2-0 Lands
1-0 DnT, then the guy got a game loss for deck reg error.

They then had a T8 for 9th - 16th place.

2-0 Grixis Delver
0-2 Eldrazi

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Originally Posted by Whitefaces

Yup, 9th place was a bit frustrating, would have been so nice to have us three together. Played the same list as above but +1 Counterspell -1 Counterbalance.

My matchups were

2-1 Grixis Delver
1-1 Pile
2-1 Grixis Delver
2-1 Grixis Delver
2-1 Grixis Delver
0-2 Sneak and Show
2-0 Lands
1-0 DnT, then the guy got a game loss for deck reg error.

They then had a T8 for 9th - 16th place.

2-0 Grixis Delver
0-2 Eldrazi

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It seems that Grixis Delver is definitely a good matchup. xD

Can you go into detail about the games against Sneak and Show and Eldrazi? Why you lost, plays you would have done differently...

Thanks!!!

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Originally Posted by losada

It seems that Grixis Delver is definitely a good matchup. xD

Can you go into detail about the games against Sneak and Show and Eldrazi? Why you lost, plays you would have done differently...

Thanks!!!

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Yeah, Delver is a good matchup for us generally.

There's not a lot to say about the SnS and Eldrazi matches I'm afraid as there wasn't much decisions to be made.

SnS - G1 he had turn two Show and Tell putting in Griselbrand with Force of Will. Game two maybe I made some mistakes, I need to go over it again, but he had a lot of redundant pieces. I countered two Show and Tells and a Sneak Attack, but after trying to Surgical Sneak Attacks (it got Forced) he then played another and Emrakuled me.

Eldrazi - G1 he had the old T1 Chalice, T2 TKS, T3 Smasher hand and I didn't cast any spells. G2 he had T1 Chalice, T2 Chalice for 2, TKS, Smasher, Smasher. The only thing I guess I could have done differently is mulligan to Force of Will, but the hands were generally OK. G2 I had Swords and Disenchants, but they were turned off by the Chalices.

Both decks have a very high ceiling, like in these matches, and there's not a whole lot you can do. Ancient Tomb is good vs Miracles.

Hi Guys! Last sunday i was able to top8 my LGS Legacy Championship (36 players this time)

R1 Burn w 2-1
R2 Turbo dephts w 2-0
R3 Big Eldrazi w 2-1
R4 Dragon Stompy L 2-1
R5 Grixis Delver w 2-0
R6 Jund ID

Top8 Jund L 2-1

The list i was playing is the same u can find some posts ago

Here's sort of a neat opportunity: ItisUnfair and I got paired last night while we both were streaming. If you're interested to hear the breakdown of a match from both sides from high level players, it's available. My side (D&T) is the first match in my stream here. His side (Miracles) is at about the 4 hour and 34 minutes mark of his video here.

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Originally Posted by Medea_

Here's sort of a neat opportunity: ItisUnfair and I got paired last night while we both were streaming. If you're interested to hear the breakdown of a match from both sides from high level players, it's available. My side (D&T) is the first match in my stream here. His side (Miracles) is at about the 4 hour and 34 minutes mark of his video here.

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While I appreciate the heads up sadly that particular match was not as instructive as I had hoped. I mostly learned three things:
- As the Miracles player, be careful what you click when Search for Azcanta and a Terminus Miracle trigger are involved.
- DnT is far less troublesome if it has no early Aether Vial.
- As the Miracles player, draw more than three lands over the course of the match.

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Originally Posted by Kobal

While I appreciate the heads up sadly that particular match was not as instructive as I had hoped. I mostly learned three things:
- As the miracles player, be careful what you click when Search for Azcanta and a Terminus Miracle trigger are involved.
- DnT is far less troublesome if it has no early Aether Vial.
- As the Miracles player, draw more than three lands over the course of the match.

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The clip itself might be trivial and non-informative, but the match-up itself is highly interactive and rather intricate. If we read the 2 primers provided by WhiteFace and Itsunfair again, most of the analysis regarding the MU is about sideboarding, and warning on fetching for Volcanic Island, needing the Red Mana for Wear//Tear.

The intricacy, imho, comes down to Vial activation. There's literally Nothing Ever Good, when Vial was activated at 2 counters. Even if it's a fake activation, you have to respect it. Remember, you cannot respond once you've passed priority: it could be a Thalia, Revoker, SFM (which might be under Mom's protection at eot), think about the worst possible outcome before you pass.

Another common mistake is Vial into Karakas. When they Vial Thalia into play at Miracles player's EOT, just STP it with 2 Mana assuming there is no active Mom please. Many times I have seen Miracles players waiting until it's DnT player's turn, and then they just slam down Karakas, now you're in this nightmare scenario of hide-and-seek. Also, by waiting, you're going into DnT player's turn in which he could tick Vial to 3 on upkeep, that would enable the Flickering of Thalia if you then try to STP it, well before the timing of Karakas.

I would rank as the following:
1. Vial Activations, especially 2: 3 is a lot more predictable: Recruiter, Flickerwisp, Crusader, Prelate. On 2, you have to take board state into account, give it more thoughts before you say pass.
2. SoFI: Have a plan for it, and that plan better take Mom and Port into account, CJ requires WW and Port might get in the way.
3. Never-ending Recruiter chain: This is DnT's attempt to marginalize Terminus.
4. Port/Waste Denial: Everyone is probably trained to mitigate these at this point.

Reference: the old miracles, that infamous clip https://youtu.be/1OdHE4MWxaA

Hello everyone,

I'm new to the deck seeking some advice from more practiced players of the deck. My questions are 1 MD Unexpectedly Absent vs 1 MD Council's Judgment both have 1 Council's Judgment in the side as well. And then replacing the 4th Swords to Plowshares with a Supreme Verdict.

The list I started to learn the deck with had these differences from the decks that just did well in the 160-ish man tournament and I'd like to know what was some reasoning behind these small adjustments. I appreciate the perspective so I may look at the deck in a more holistic fashion.

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Originally Posted by Quackers

Hello everyone,

I'm new to the deck seeking some advice from more practiced players of the deck. My questions are 1 MD Unexpectedly Absent vs 1 MD Council's Judgment both have 1 Council's Judgment in the side as well. And then replacing the 4th Swords to Plowshares with a Supreme Verdict.

The list I started to learn the deck with had these differences from the decks that just did well in the 160-ish man tournament and I'd like to know what was some reasoning behind these small adjustments. I appreciate the perspective so I may look at the deck in a more holistic fashion.

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Hi - so UA vs CJ is a question largely of playstyle - CJ is a more permanent answer to things like Jace, and it can answer True-Name and Leovold, whereas UA is more flexible in terms of play pattern (allows you to hold up countermagic, deals with things like Marit Lage end of turn).

The CJ sideboard (or in some cases, UA) serves as a fourth answer to Chalice of the Void, whilst still being useful vs Czech Pile/DnT.

Replacing the fourth swords with a verdict is a statement that sweepers are better than spot removal when playing against Delver. I'm not sure this has been proven to be true - but there are a few benefits to having verdict in your deck (Surprise factor vs daze/fluster/force, you can find it with Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin and cast it efficiently the next turn).

Generally I find Swords to be excellent against Delver and try and play a more Swords/Snapcaster into Mentor/Counterbalance/Flusterstorm game rather than relying on wraths. I suspect this also to be more of a playstyle consideration.